Re: Extremism vs. Moderation

[Guest guest]

You are questioning my qualifications? Go ahead, question all you wish.

You " re not advocating anorexia? Good, neither am I. However, the

degree of CR that one chooses is one's PERSONAL choice. I'll choose

mine, you choose yours. Is this OK with you? Furthermore, I never

stated my degree of CR on this list! What you and others here are

doing is assuming from the basis some of my previous comments, and in

doing that you will be more or less wrong. The degree of CR is a

personal choice, and I have not been lauding extremism here. Quit

reading things into my comments that aren't there please.

Your comments on too low protein is well taken (you made these same

assertions to me off list), once again I'm not advocating excessively

low protein consumption to point of disease.

Bodybuilders, male and female, also go to extreme low body fat levels

without apparent brain dysfunction that you suggest will occur at

those low levels. How do you explain this?

> > [snip]

> > With regard to the comments by the others, I disagree with Tony's

> > lower limit of 14% bodyfat for women. I think it may be too high,

> > too " safe " so personally I'm going lower. I'm not telling you too.

> > [snip]

>

>

> I did not pull the 14% out of the air. The American Council on

> Exercise has these classifications for Body Fat:

> http://www.annecollins.com/body-fat-calculators.htm

> . . . . . . . . . . Women . . . . Men

> Essential fat . . . 10-12% . . . 2-4%

> Athletes . . . .. . 14-20% . . . 6-13%

> Fitness . . . . . . 21-24% . . . 14-17%

>

> When you start depleting your essential fat, you are basically

> depleting your brain which is ~60% fat (BT122YD p. 161) and your

> nervous system (the myelin coating is ~70% fat).

>

> With regard to low protein diets, you can take a look at the evidence

> by looking at minimums and maximums to determine the advantages or

> disadvantages of both. We know that too little protein causes

> marasmus and kwashiorkor.

> http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section1/chapter2/2c.jsp

> Too much protein is suspected of causing kidney problems. Somewhere

> between these two extremes is the happy medium for optimum health and,

> maybe, longevity.

>

> Minimum quantities of protein cause those bloated stomachs and grayish

> hair that we see in those pathetic pictures that are used by

> organizations looking for donations for children in Africa. The

> maximum quantities (2 to 4 grams of protein per kg of body weight) are

> used by muscular bodybuilders like Schwartzenegger. The hard bodies

> of bodybuilders are less grotesque than those of the children with the

> sad eyes.

>

> What is the incidence of tumors in bodybuilders? Are they at an

> increased risk of cancer? Epidemiologically, it does not seem to be

> true. Searching PubMed, I have not found excessive premature death,

> kidney failure, or cancerous growths in bodybuilders.

>

> Low protein diets, on the other hand, have filled the cemeteries of

> Africa.

> http://www.childinfo.org/eddb/malnutrition/

>

> My own conclusion is that a high protein diet is not as harmful as a

> low protein diet.

>

> It is said that wise people learn from the experience of others, and

> that fools learn from their own mistakes. We can live better by

> relying on the knowledge that we gain from published scientific work

> that has been independently verified.

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Tony

[Guest guest]

I apologize if I misunderstood your point of view, but when you

mentioned that 14% body fat, which is the low end for a female

athlete, was 'too high, too " safe " ' and that you were 'going lower', I

thought that you wanted to achieve a percent of body fat that was " low

and dangerous " .

Thanks for the clarification.

Tony

>

> > [snip]

> > With regard to the comments by the others, I disagree with Tony's

> > lower limit of 14% bodyfat for women. I think it may be too high,

> > too " safe " so personally I'm going lower. I'm not telling you too.

> > [snip]

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

The response to suggestions such as those below is:

Samaras TT, Elrick H.

Less is better.

J Natl Med Assoc. 2002 Feb;94(2):88-99.

PMID: 11853051

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=11853051 & query_hl=13

.... While Sumo wrestlers, football players, and basketball players play an

important

role in our world, their small numbers do not pose a threat to our survival.

However, their body habitus should not be the goal for the average male of the

future.

As muscle increases due to bodybuilding and such exercises, the same fat in the

same

central nervous system is a smaller percentage.

--- citpeks <citpeks@...> wrote:

> ,

>

> I am starting to question your judgement and/or your qualifications as

> a doctor. I thought that " Do No Harm " was rule number 1. The advice

> that the members of this group have provided has been based on

> mainstream published scientific papers. We are not advocating

> anorexia. We advocate a healthy life style with good nutriton, but

> using moderate Caloric Restriction to try to achieve the benefits of

> longevity which have been observed in laboratory trials in a variety

> of species.

>

>

> > [snip]

> > With regard to the comments by the others, I disagree with Tony's

> > lower limit of 14% bodyfat for women. I think it may be too high,

> > too " safe " so personally I'm going lower. I'm not telling you too.

> > [snip]

>

>

> I did not pull the 14% out of the air. The American Council on

> Exercise has these classifications for Body Fat:

> http://www.annecollins.com/body-fat-calculators.htm

> . . . . . . . . . . Women . . . . Men

> Essential fat . . . 10-12% . . . 2-4%

> Athletes . . . .. . 14-20% . . . 6-13%

> Fitness . . . . . . 21-24% . . . 14-17%

>

> When you start depleting your essential fat, you are basically

> depleting your brain which is ~60% fat (BT122YD p. 161) and your

> nervous system (the myelin coating is ~70% fat).

>

> With regard to low protein diets, you can take a look at the evidence

> by looking at minimums and maximums to determine the advantages or

> disadvantages of both. We know that too little protein causes

> marasmus and kwashiorkor.

> http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section1/chapter2/2c.jsp

> Too much protein is suspected of causing kidney problems. Somewhere

> between these two extremes is the happy medium for optimum health and,

> maybe, longevity.

>

> Minimum quantities of protein cause those bloated stomachs and grayish

> hair that we see in those pathetic pictures that are used by

> organizations looking for donations for children in Africa. The

> maximum quantities (2 to 4 grams of protein per kg of body weight) are

> used by muscular bodybuilders like Schwartzenegger. The hard bodies

> of bodybuilders are less grotesque than those of the children with the

> sad eyes.

>

> What is the incidence of tumors in bodybuilders? Are they at an

> increased risk of cancer? Epidemiologically, it does not seem to be

> true. Searching PubMed, I have not found excessive premature death,

> kidney failure, or cancerous growths in bodybuilders.

>

> Low protein diets, on the other hand, have filled the cemeteries of

> Africa.

> http://www.childinfo.org/eddb/malnutrition/

>

> My own conclusion is that a high protein diet is not as harmful as a

> low protein diet.

>

> It is said that wise people learn from the experience of others, and

> that fools learn from their own mistakes. We can live better by

> relying on the knowledge that we gain from published scientific work

> that has been independently verified.

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Tony

>

>

>

Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@...

__________________________________

Mobile

Take with you! Check email on your mobile phone.

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[Guest guest]

--- In , " " <crjohnr@b...>

wrote:

> Choose your own path and good luck.

>

> I believe there is a logical flaw in offering body builders as examples

> of extremely low BF levels. I'm sure they have more than adequate fat

> they just have so much muscle that as a percentage it looks small.

>

> JR

Hi, and all--

Competitive body builders will dramatically lower their body fat to

extremely low (and possibly dangerous) levels, e.g., 3% or less for

men, 9% or less for women, just briefly for the duration of a

bodybuilding show. This process is called " cutting. " They spend most

of the year " bulking, " i.e., eating hypercalorically in order to add

lean muscle mass, but in the process they also tend to add fat and

their bodyfat may hover at levels as high as 20% or more for many

months at a time.

It's important to bear in mind that competitive sports aren't about

health, they're about winning, often at any cost. Many if not most

competitive bodybuilders also use potentially dangerous anabolic

and/or weight loss drugs. Longevity isn't their primary goal.

-Liz

[Guest guest]

Where does the " American Council on Exercise " get these figures for

lower limits of essential fat? How did they arrive at these? What

methods did they use?

> > > [snip]

> > > With regard to the comments by the others, I disagree with Tony's

> > > lower limit of 14% bodyfat for women. I think it may be too high,

> > > too " safe " so personally I'm going lower. I'm not telling you too.

> > > [snip]

> >

> >

> > I did not pull the 14% out of the air. The American Council on

> > Exercise has these classifications for Body Fat:

> > http://www.annecollins.com/body-fat-calculators.htm

> > . . . . . . . . . . Women . . . . Men

> > Essential fat . . . 10-12% . . . 2-4%

> > Athletes . . . .. . 14-20% . . . 6-13%

> > Fitness . . . . . . 21-24% . . . 14-17%

> >

> > When you start depleting your essential fat, you are basically

> > depleting your brain which is ~60% fat (BT122YD p. 161) and your

> > nervous system (the myelin coating is ~70% fat).

> >

> > With regard to low protein diets, you can take a look at the evidence

> > by looking at minimums and maximums to determine the advantages or

> > disadvantages of both. We know that too little protein causes

> > marasmus and kwashiorkor.

> > http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section1/chapter2/2c.jsp

> > Too much protein is suspected of causing kidney problems. Somewhere

> > between these two extremes is the happy medium for optimum health and,

> > maybe, longevity.

> >

> > Minimum quantities of protein cause those bloated stomachs and grayish

> > hair that we see in those pathetic pictures that are used by

> > organizations looking for donations for children in Africa. The

> > maximum quantities (2 to 4 grams of protein per kg of body weight) are

> > used by muscular bodybuilders like Schwartzenegger. The hard bodies

> > of bodybuilders are less grotesque than those of the children with the

> > sad eyes.

> >

> > What is the incidence of tumors in bodybuilders? Are they at an

> > increased risk of cancer? Epidemiologically, it does not seem to be

> > true. Searching PubMed, I have not found excessive premature death,

> > kidney failure, or cancerous growths in bodybuilders.

> >

> > Low protein diets, on the other hand, have filled the cemeteries of

> > Africa.

> > http://www.childinfo.org/eddb/malnutrition/

> >

> > My own conclusion is that a high protein diet is not as harmful as a

> > low protein diet.

> >

> > It is said that wise people learn from the experience of others, and

> > that fools learn from their own mistakes. We can live better by

> > relying on the knowledge that we gain from published scientific work

> > that has been independently verified.

> >

> > Best wishes,

> >

> > Tony

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@y...

>

>

>

> __________________________________

> Mobile

> Take with you! Check email on your mobile phone.

> http://mobile./learn/mail

[Guest guest]

Hi :

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Rodney.

> > > > [snip]

> > > > With regard to the comments by the others, I disagree with

Tony's

> > > > lower limit of 14% bodyfat for women. I think it may be too

high,

> > > > too " safe " so personally I'm going lower. I'm not telling you

too.

> > > > [snip]

> > >

> > >

> > > I did not pull the 14% out of the air. The American Council on

> > > Exercise has these classifications for Body Fat:

> > > http://www.annecollins.com/body-fat-calculators.htm

> > > . . . . . . . . . . Women . . . . Men

> > > Essential fat . . . 10-12% . . . 2-4%

> > > Athletes . . . .. . 14-20% . . . 6-13%

> > > Fitness . . . . . . 21-24% . . . 14-17%

> > >

> > > When you start depleting your essential fat, you are basically

> > > depleting your brain which is ~60% fat (BT122YD p. 161) and your

> > > nervous system (the myelin coating is ~70% fat).

> > >

> > > With regard to low protein diets, you can take a look at the

evidence

> > > by looking at minimums and maximums to determine the advantages

or

> > > disadvantages of both. We know that too little protein causes

> > > marasmus and kwashiorkor.

> > > http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section1/chapter2/2c.jsp

> > > Too much protein is suspected of causing kidney problems.

Somewhere

> > > between these two extremes is the happy medium for optimum

health and,

> > > maybe, longevity.

> > >

> > > Minimum quantities of protein cause those bloated stomachs and

grayish

> > > hair that we see in those pathetic pictures that are used by

> > > organizations looking for donations for children in Africa. The

> > > maximum quantities (2 to 4 grams of protein per kg of body

weight) are

> > > used by muscular bodybuilders like Schwartzenegger. The hard

bodies

> > > of bodybuilders are less grotesque than those of the children

with the

> > > sad eyes.

> > >

> > > What is the incidence of tumors in bodybuilders? Are they at an

> > > increased risk of cancer? Epidemiologically, it does not seem

to be

> > > true. Searching PubMed, I have not found excessive premature

death,

> > > kidney failure, or cancerous growths in bodybuilders.

> > >

> > > Low protein diets, on the other hand, have filled the

cemeteries of

> > > Africa.

> > > http://www.childinfo.org/eddb/malnutrition/

> > >

> > > My own conclusion is that a high protein diet is not as harmful

as a

> > > low protein diet.

> > >

> > > It is said that wise people learn from the experience of

others, and

> > > that fools learn from their own mistakes. We can live better by

> > > relying on the knowledge that we gain from published scientific

work

> > > that has been independently verified.

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > >

> > > Tony

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@y...

> >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________

> > Mobile

> > Take with you! Check email on your mobile phone.

> > http://mobile./learn/mail

[Guest guest]

--- In , " " <crjohnr@b...>

wrote:

> Agreed but I think you may be missing my point. 9% BF for a body builder

> who weighs significantly more, is " more " pounds of fat than 9% for a

low BMI

> CR'd individual. This also doesn't account for the difficulty in

accurately

> measuring structural and organ fat. I wouldn't expect a heavier

bodybuilder

> to have bigger eyeballs or a bigger brain. :-)

>

> So IMO, body builders %BF are not strictly comparable, and even if

they were

> they don't seem to be particular examples of good health.

>

> JR

>

Hi, --

No, I get your point, in fact I think I made the exact same point

about fat percentages back in post #18618. I just wanted to add the

point that bodybuildres don't KEEP their bodyfat at minimal levels for

very long. (Also, as an aside, there is in fact medical evidence that

bodybuilders who take anabolic steroids do have significantly larger

internal organs, often to their detriment.)

Another important factor to keep in mind is that most measurements of

bodyfat are pretty innaccurate. I test mine monthly using a Futrex

5000 machine at my gym, as well as calipers, tape measure, and the

experienced eyeballs of several professional trainers. The Futrex is

particularly inaccurate at lower bf levels, and it fluctuates

infuriatingly depending on hydration, body temp, recent activity, the

moon, the stars, the harmonic convergence, who knows. Testing total bf

with calipers depends on using an equation that factors in age and

sex, which is always way off for me because it assumes a woman my age

has much less muscle mass and bone density than I in fact do. For

example, if I enter my age as 51, which it is, my result is 23% bf,

but if I tell it I'm 21, it says my bf is around 14%, which is close

to what the Futrex & other measures usually indicate. And because I'm

a weight lifter, I do have way more muscle than the average 51 year

old woman, and my bone density is very high--t scores range between +1

and +2, which is the score of a healthy 18 year old.

Anyway, the point of all this is that these measurenments tend to NOT

be accurate, so there's a high likelihood that any given person may be

assuming an incorrect value for their bf%, either too high or too low.

So maybe when they think they're going down to 10% or whatever, it

wouldn't cause any problems at all because their initial calculation

was a false low, and they're not actually anywhere mnear 10%. But a

person could also run into serious trouble if the calculation was

false high. Just something to keep in mind when talking about bodyfat

percentages: unless you've been dunked or had an autopsy, your

estimate is probably off.

-Liz