Re: ABCNEWS.com: Can Eating Less Extend Your Life?

[Guest guest]

Are we sure McGlothin eats 1300 kcals?

Is this the same:

http://www.healthstepsrx.com/services/online/files/Sample_Computerized_Aalysis__2_for_Online_Services.pdf#search='%20McGlothin'

http://www.forbes.com/2003/12/09/cx_1209health_print.html

" McGlothin, who's been practicing CR for about 10 years, hopes Walford is right. "I'd love it if I could be over 100 and jumping around and playing basketball," he said. McGlothin convinced his wife, Averill, to join him in giving up calories to live longer. They eagerly recite their daily diet: 1,400 calories for her, 1,800 for him; their dietary delicacies include lemon juice and water to sweet potatoes and fruit; and Averill's favorite, "rice protein" breakfast. McGlothin, who's 5 feet 11 inches tall, weighs in at 131 pounds. He lost 29 pounds on CR. His cholesterol, blood pressure and body temperature have all dropped to lizard-like levels. And yes, McGlothin says he gets hungry. The odd thing is, he's happy to be hungry. "

regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: heitcanna@...

Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 12:07 PM

Subject: [ ] ABCNEWS.com: Can Eating Less Extend Your Life?

You have received this ABCNEWS.com mail from:heitcanna@... Walford was on Good Morning America June 20, 2005. Here is the email link to the discussion with her this morning.

[Guest guest]

When I looked at the picture in the link, my first reaction was a

gasp. (Sorry , I don't mean to offend you.).

My second reaction was to think of other 50-year olds that I know and

compare them with Walford to try to determine who looked younger.

My third reaction was to look in the mirror and breathe a sigh of

relief to see that, although thin, I am virtually plump compared to

. I also thought about my family members telling me not to lose

any more weight because I am now too thin (BMI 22.4).

I have never seen a 40% CRed mouse, but my impression was that they

looked fluffy and active when ad lib mice were already scruffy and

lethargic.

I want to look good and live long. Is that a contradiction?

Tony

> You have received this ABCNEWS.com mail from:

>

> heitcanna@y...

>

> Walford was on Good Morning America June 20, 2005. Here is the

email link to the discussion with her this morning.

>

> Can Eating Less Extend Your Life?

> http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/MedicalMinute/story?id=864296 & page=1

[Guest guest]

I was trying to figure out why 's picture seemed so stark.

Using 's height and weight from the following article, at 5'0 " and

80 lb her BMI would be 15.7. I don't know her actual height but here

are some possibilities:

4'11 " - BMI 16.2

4'10 " - BMI 16.8

4'9 " - BMI 17.3

Whatever her hight, she is **way under** the range of " normal " BMI

which is 18.5.

Tony

===

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/print?id=864296

>>>

Walford, the co-author of " The Longevity Diet, " which espouses

caloric restriction, is 50 years old and has been on the diet for over

15 years now.

Walford stands at just under five feet tall and weighs 80 pounds --

about 15 pounds less than an average woman her height. She stresses

caloric restriction is not the same as anorexia -- she eats throughout

the day, but consumes only about 1,300 calories in foods like nuts,

fruits and vegetables, and she is an avid practitioner of yoga.

>>>

======

> > You have received this ABCNEWS.com mail from:

> >

> > heitcanna@y...

> >

> > Walford was on Good Morning America June 20, 2005. Here is

the

> email link to the discussion with her this morning.

> >

> > Can Eating Less Extend Your Life?

> > http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/MedicalMinute/story?id=864296 & page=1

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony:

There is an easy solution to the 'appearance' problem. All we need

do is grow fur. Then no one would notice our weight loss, just as no

one notices how slim the mice are.

A bit like my long-haired cat. Looks huge until she has a bath.

Then she appears to shrink to half the size.

But on a more serious note, I have noticed that slimness is not liked

in this civilization. I have been urged by a number of people

(including one medical professional, whose BMI is probably around 30)

to not lose any more weight. Their excuse is that it cannot be good

for my health. But I wonder if the real reason may be different. My

BMI today is closer to 23 than 22.

Rodney.

> > > You have received this ABCNEWS.com mail from:

> > >

> > > heitcanna@y...

> > >

> > > Walford was on Good Morning America June 20, 2005. Here is

> the

> > email link to the discussion with her this morning.

> > >

> > > Can Eating Less Extend Your Life?

> > > http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/MedicalMinute/story?id=864296 & page=1

[Guest guest]

GET FURRY? ROFL! Ah now and then you can be quite insightful..

> > > > You have received this ABCNEWS.com mail from:

> > > >

> > > > heitcanna@y...

> > > >

> > > > Walford was on Good Morning America June 20, 2005. Here is

> > the

> > > email link to the discussion with her this morning.

> > > >

> > > > Can Eating Less Extend Your Life?

> > > > http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/MedicalMinute/story?id=864296 & page=1

[Guest guest]

Rodney,

" Appearance " is only one part of what concerns me. When there is so

little body fat, the skin is so thin that you can see the musculature

of the face as in the picture in this link.

http://www.derm.net/bo_wrinkles.shtml

For comparison, here is 's picture:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/MedicalMinute/story?id=864296 & page=1

The second aspect that concerns me is 's BMI which is very far

below the normal range. The article said that is " about 15

pounds less than an average woman her height " . Doing the math, the

weight for a 5'0 " person of BMI 22, which I would consider " average "

because it is the middle of the normal range, is 112 pounds. This is

32 pounds more than . A 5'0 " person with a BMI of 18.5, which is

the lowest in the normal range, would weigh 95 pounds. So, is

about 15 pounds underweight, based on these metrics.

I just hope that she does not overdo it and that we can learn from her

exerience.

Tony

> --- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

wrote:

> > Hi Tony:

> >

> > There is an easy solution to the 'appearance' problem. All we

need

> > do is grow fur. Then no one would notice our weight loss, just

as no

> > one notices how slim the mice are.

> >

> > A bit like my long-haired cat. Looks huge until she has a bath.

> > Then she appears to shrink to half the size.

> >

> > But on a more serious note, I have noticed that slimness is not

liked

> > in this civilization. I have been urged by a number of people

> > (including one medical professional, whose BMI is probably around

30)

> > to not lose any more weight. Their excuse is that it cannot be

good

> > for my health. But I wonder if the real reason may be different.

My

> > BMI today is closer to 23 than 22.

> >

> > Rodney.

> >

> > --- In , " citpeks " <citpeks@y...>

wrote:

> > > I was trying to figure out why 's picture seemed so stark.

> > >

> > > Using 's height and weight from the following article, at

5'0 "

> > and

> > > 80 lb her BMI would be 15.7. I don't know her actual height

but

> > here

> > > are some possibilities:

> > > 4'11 " - BMI 16.2

> > > 4'10 " - BMI 16.8

> > > 4'9 " - BMI 17.3

> > >

> > > Whatever her hight, she is **way under** the range of " normal "

BMI

> > > which is 18.5.

> > >

> > > Tony

> > >

> > > ===

> > >

> > > http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/print?id=864296

> > > >>>

> > > Walford, the co-author of " The Longevity Diet, " which

espouses

> > > caloric restriction, is 50 years old and has been on the diet

for

> > over

> > > 15 years now.

> > >

> > > Walford stands at just under five feet tall and weighs 80

pounds --

> > > about 15 pounds less than an average woman her height. She

stresses

> > > caloric restriction is not the same as anorexia -- she eats

> > throughout

> > > the day, but consumes only about 1,300 calories in foods like

nuts,

> > > fruits and vegetables, and she is an avid practitioner of yoga.

> > > >>>

> > >

> > > ======

[Guest guest]

So what if you may see her musculature? What has this got to do with

true markers of health? Her health lies in her biometrics not her pics!

> > > > I was trying to figure out why 's picture seemed so stark.

> > > >

> > > > Using 's height and weight from the following article, at

> 5'0 "

> > > and

> > > > 80 lb her BMI would be 15.7. I don't know her actual height

> but

> > > here

> > > > are some possibilities:

> > > > 4'11 " - BMI 16.2

> > > > 4'10 " - BMI 16.8

> > > > 4'9 " - BMI 17.3

> > > >

> > > > Whatever her hight, she is **way under** the range of " normal "

> BMI

> > > > which is 18.5.

> > > >

> > > > Tony

> > > >

> > > > ===

> > > >

> > > > http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/print?id=864296

> > > > >>>

> > > > Walford, the co-author of " The Longevity Diet, " which

> espouses

> > > > caloric restriction, is 50 years old and has been on the diet

> for

> > > over

> > > > 15 years now.

> > > >

> > > > Walford stands at just under five feet tall and weighs 80

> pounds --

> > > > about 15 pounds less than an average woman her height. She

> stresses

> > > > caloric restriction is not the same as anorexia -- she eats

> > > throughout

> > > > the day, but consumes only about 1,300 calories in foods like

> nuts,

> > > > fruits and vegetables, and she is an avid practitioner of yoga.

> > > > >>>

> > > >

> > > > ======

[Guest guest]

> So what if you may see her musculature? What has this got to do with

> true markers of health? Her health lies in her biometrics not her pics!

Not necessarily...

http://jech.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/57/2/130

[Guest guest]

Good point Diane.

One of the problems we have is that we still do not really know

what 'ON' is with any great precision. Sure, we know some things are

downright unhealthy but beyond that we are far from agreeing even on

the most desirable proportions of the macronutrients - or even if it

makes a difference. And do we have any serious empirical evidence

supporting the anti-oxidant hypothesis as regards lifespan?

So we can not know, yet, what caloric intake is optimal for someone

with ideal nutrition intake. Possibly many of the people with a BMI

under 18 who died early did so because of unsuspected nutrient

deficiencies, which is certainly one good reason not to go too far on

the downside in calories until we know more about the trace nutrients

many of which have still not been identified.

And this is complicated by the fact that some people's eating habits

appear to be motivated by factors other than their health (vegans

notably).

The Partridge study of protein and fat in fruit flies will be a

start. As will the Mattson meal frequency study.

Rodney.

> > So what if you may see her musculature? What has this got to do

with

> > true markers of health? Her health lies in her biometrics not her

pics!

>

>

> Not necessarily...

> http://jech.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/57/2/130

[Guest guest]

They mention in the text of the article that their data for 28+ was

likely not valid because they had a small sample size in that group.

Their purpose was to look at a large sample of people with very low

BMIs. This group is often undersampled in most studies because there

are so few in this range.

I don't understand your question about what the BMI changed to. Could

you elaborate?

DW

> > So what if you may see her musculature? What has this got to do with

> > true markers of health? Her health lies in her biometrics not

her pics!

>

>

> Not necessarily...

> http://jech.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/57/2/130

[Guest guest]

Body mass index and mortality among US male physicians.

Ajani UA, Lotufo PA, Gaziano JM, Lee IM, Spelsberg A, Buring JE,

Willett WC, Manson JE.

Division of Preventive Medicine, Department of Medicine, Brigham and

Women's Hospital and Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA, USA.

PURPOSE: To assess the relationship between body mass index and

mortality in a population homogeneous in educational attainment and

socioeconomic status. METHODS: We analyzed the association between

body mass index (BMI) and both all-cause and cause-specific mortality

among 85,078 men aged 40 to 84 years from the Physicians' Health Study

enrollment cohort. RESULTS: During 5 years of follow-up, we documented

2856 deaths (including 1212 due to cardiovascular diseases and 891 due

to cancer). In age-adjusted analyses, we observed a U-shaped relation

between BMI and all-cause mortality; among men who never smoked a

linear relation was observed with no increase in mortality among

leaner men (P for trend, <0.001). Among never smokers, in multivariate

analyses adjusted for age, alcohol intake, and physical activity, the

relative risks of all-cause mortality increased in a stepwise fashion

with increasing BMI. Excluding the first 2 years of follow-up further

strengthened the association (multivariate relative risks, from BMI<20

to > or = 30 kg/m2, were 0.93, 1.00, 1.00, 1.16, 1.45, and 1.71 [P for

trend, <0.001]). In all age strata (40-54, 55-69, and 70-84 years),

never smokers with BMIs of 30 or greater had approximately a 70%

increased risk of death compared with the referent group (BMI

22.5-24.9). Higher levels of BMI were also strongly related to

increased risk of cardiovascular mortality, regardless of physical

activity level (P for trend, <0.01). CONCLUSIONS: All-cause and

cardiovascular mortality was directly related to BMI among middle-aged

and elderly men. Advancing age did not attenuate the increased risk of

death associated with obesity. Lean men (BMI<20) did not have excess

mortality, regardless of age.

PMID: 15519894

> > So what if you may see her musculature? What has this got to do with

> > true markers of health? Her health lies in her biometrics not her

pics!

>

>

> Not necessarily...

> http://jech.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/57/2/130

[Guest guest]

Hi JW:

One of the things I find especially interesting about that study is

that it pretty much destroys, unless it comes to be contradicted

later, one of my fundamental working assumptions about CR.

I had thought (DUH?) that dramatically superior CVD risk factors

among those on CR would be associated with dramatically fewer cases

of CVD. (Sigh .............)

Unfortunately, the study's data show otherwise. The study

participants with the lowest BMIs certainly did have the best CVD

risk factors, but not the smallest percentage dying of CVD.

The data for those who died show that 67% of those with a BMI above

28 died from circulatory diseases. 56% of those with BMIs between 26

and 28. 42% of them with BMIs between 24 and 26. Then the

improvement begins to slow as BMIs drop further. 39% of the 22 to 24

BMI deaths were from circulatory diseases. 36% of those with BMIs of

20 to 22. Only a marginal drop to 35% for those with BMI between 18

and 20. But then it jumps to 48% for those below a BMI of 18.

So it seems that, beyond a certain point, improvement in CVD risk

factors provides no further improvement in risk. Indeed perhaps the

opposite.

I have been known to say here that we should pay less attention to

CVD and more attention to cancer risk because our CVD risk factors

indicate we are NOT gonna die of heart disease. NOT TRUE apparently.

This is rather weird. If one's arteries are not clogged (carotid

IMT, for example) with deposits how are we still gonna die from

ischemic heart disease? Plenty of the people in the two lowest BMI

categories in this study did die of cardiovascular disease and

stroke, including ischemic heart disease.

Bear in mind, however, that the entire group as a whole was far

healthier than the UK population average. The SMR (I assume this

means standardized mortality rate, although they do not say) for the

group was 52 (I take it that this compares with 100 for the entire

population?).

Rodney.

> > So what if you may see her musculature? What has this got to do

with

> > true markers of health? Her health lies in her biometrics not

her pics!

>

>

> Not necessarily...

> http://jech.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/57/2/130

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

On re-reading my post below I am not sure the point I was trying to

make came through very clearly. So here it is more concisely:

" If 48% of the slimmest study subjects who died, died of circulatory

diseases despite having excellent CVD risk factor profiles, then

there appears to be reason to doubt whether CR imparts great benefit

for cardiovascular health " .

This comes as a surprise to me.

Please, someone, prove the above wrong.

Rodney.

> > > So what if you may see her musculature? What has this got to

do

> with

> > > true markers of health? Her health lies in her biometrics not

> her pics!

> >

> >

> > Not necessarily...

> > http://jech.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/57/2/130

[Guest guest]

Hi Al:

OK. So it sounds as if you are saying that if one is thoroughly

healthy, has a big ( " healthy " ?) appetite and has to fight in order to

remain slim, and also takes care about the RDA's, then life extension

is the result?

And also that most of the people in the general population who are

slim, are slim for pathological reasons so there would be no reason

to expect them to become centenarians.

Certainly the mice in CR studies are slim because it is 'inflicted'

on them. Not because they are ill and do not feel hungry.

Rodney.

>

> > Hi folks:

> >

> > On re-reading my post below I am not sure the point I was trying

to

> > make came through very clearly. So here it is more concisely:

> >

> > " If 48% of the slimmest study subjects who died, died of

circulatory

> > diseases despite having excellent CVD risk factor profiles, then

> > there appears to be reason to doubt whether CR imparts great

benefit

> > for cardiovascular health " .

> >

> > This comes as a surprise to me.

> >

> > Please, someone, prove the above wrong.

>

> Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@y...

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Also guinea pigs, I believe.

Rodney.

> >

> > Other than cats and dogs, do animals get CVD?

> > Regards.

> > inal Message -----

> >

> > *From:* Al Pater <old542000@y...>

> > *To:*

> > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 21, 2005 6:53 PM

> > *Subject:* Re: [ ] Re: ABCNEWS.com

<http://abcnews.com/>: Can

> > Eating Less Extend Your Life?

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > Since CRers represent a trivial percentage of those with slim

builds and

> > the vast

> > majority are lean due to pathology, there may be no

contradiction. Being

> > lean

> > confers better CVD risk factor profiles in both cases. It

associates with

> > long and

> > healthy life only in the CRers.

> >

> > It is of note, maybe, that the animal models that show successful

> > CR-associated

> > longevity are those having few CVDs.

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------

> > *

[Guest guest]

Hi JW:

But if we believe the -Benedict equation, then the majority of

slim people (excluding the sick ones) ARE on CR. Otherwise the

equation would be irrelevant.

And still, unless a large proportion of those slim people are ill, it

does suggest that people who restrict calories are far from immune to

CVD. (I had previously thought, because of the WUSTL CVD risk factor

data, that we need not concern ourselves with CVD if we were on CR).

Of course I acknowledge that we are likely to live longer. But when

we die it looks to me that CVD may still be the most frequent cause

of death, even though it may be a (hopefully considerable) number of

years later than it would otherwise have been. Or, perhaps, the ones

who died of CVD were eating too much myristic acid and hydrogenated

vegetable oil, which we, presumably, are not?

I am no longer convinced that we have clear evidence that much

superior CVD risk factor data will be associated with much reduced

death from CVD. Given more evidence perhaps I can become re-

convinced.

Rodney.

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> Easy. The statement is silly. It's true we should doubt CR imparts

great benefit, but I can insert any word in place of CR. But CR is

the only thing we have to possibly extend life. That study proves

nothing to me about CR. None of those people were CRer, right? Just

because they have low BMIs does not equate to CR.

>

> Does he expect the slimmest to live forever? All suffer oxidation

of fat/athero build up in one place or another.

>

> Regards.

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Rodney

>

> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 6:23 PM

> Subject: [ ] Re: ABCNEWS.com: Can Eating Less Extend

Your Life?

>

>

> Hi folks:

>

> On re-reading my post below I am not sure the point I was trying

to

> make came through very clearly. So here it is more concisely:

>

> " If 48% of the slimmest study subjects who died, died of

circulatory

> diseases despite having excellent CVD risk factor profiles, then

> there appears to be reason to doubt whether CR imparts great

benefit

> for cardiovascular health " .

>

> This comes as a surprise to me.

>

> Please, someone, prove the above wrong.

>

> Rodney.