Re: Dr. Furmann is promoting 50mg of Naltrexone which is ...

[Guest guest]

Dr. Furmann, do you have MS or are you taking naltrexone for another disease? Kiki

[Guest guest]

Dr, Furmann, you say some days you need a second tablet... are you taking the medicine during the day?

JT

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr.Fuhrmann

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 7:18 AM

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Dr. Furmann is promoting 50mg of Naltrexone which is ...

Hallo Kiki!

I am diagnosed having MS about 3 and a half year ago in SMZOst,the second largest Hospital of Vienna,by NMR and liquorpunction pos with oligoclonal bands.I have tried Copaxone,Rebif and Mitoxanthron without benefit,now 50 mg of Nemexin seems to help,but on days with a lot of stress I need a second tablett,which reliefs my pain.

I dont know,if someone in U.S.A.earns money by sending Kps of LDN to people or perscriptons.I am a doctor of internal medicine earn nothing with the MS,I only want ,that the best treatment comes to all MS patients.I hav found the article with the opiatreceptor and I know by my medicinal education,that there is a higher dose necessary to block this receptor fully.I feel very well,since I do so.Manfred

: J Neuroimmunol. 2004 Feb;147(1-2):121-2.

Related Articles,

Links

Antibody response and allogeneic mixed lymphocyte reaction in mu-, delta-, and kappa-opioid receptor knockout mice.Gaveriaux-Ruff C, Simonin F, Filliol D, Kieffer B.Department of Neurobiology, Institute de Genetique et de Biologie Moleculaire et Cellular, BP 163, CU de Strasborg, 67404 Illkirch cedex, France. gaveriau@...The implication of opioid receptors in immune response has been studied using mu-, delta- and kappa-opioid receptor knockout mice. The mutant animals were compared to their wild-type (WT) counterparts for antibody (Ab) response to the prototype Ag keyhole limpet hemocyanin (KLH). Kappa-receptor deficient mice displayed higher Ab titers for either total Ig, IgM, IgG1 or IgG2a isotypes, whereas mu and delta animals behaved as wild-type mice. Therefore, endogenous kappa-receptor activation would tonically inhibit Ab response. Opioid receptor deficient mice were also used to investigate the immunosuppressive action of naltrindole, a delta-opioid receptor antagonist, shown earlier to inhibit graft rejection and the allogeneic mixed lymphocyte reaction (MLR) in vitro. Naltrindole and two related compounds inhibited MLR performed with lymphocytes from wild-type and delta-opioid receptor knockout mice. These compounds also suppressed MLR assayed with cells from triple mu/delta/kappa-opioid receptor mutants. We therefore demonstrate that naltrindole immunosuppressive activity is not mediated by any of the three mu-, delta- or kappa-opioid receptors, but by a target which remains to be discovered.

----- Original Message -----

From: noclue915@...

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:59 PM

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Dr. Furmann is promoting 50mg of Naltrexone which is ...

Dr. Furmann, do you have MS or are you taking naltrexone for another disease? Kiki

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your answers, and your participation.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr.Fuhrmann

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 7:39 AM

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Dr. Furmann is promoting 50mg of Naltrexone which is ...

Hi JT!

Yes, I dont believe on the Theorie of Dr.Bilhari and therefore I dont take it at night.I take it when I stand up in the morning.When there is a lot of stress and I feel more symptoms for example at 11 a.m.,I take a second tablett Nemexin and a approximately two hours later it is quite better.My theorie is not that of "symphonie of endorphins" or so,I dont know what Dr.Bilhari means exactly.My theorie is blocking the new opiat receptor,which speeds up the immunsystem.Dr.Bihari could not have known about this receptor,because it is discovered only some month ago.You can read a lot of this and other new findings on my forum,but it is inGerman.The abstract are in English.You can put question in it for all and I will answer.I will also answer the mail about my symptoms from Zora.

To JT,who is concerned because i encourage 50 mg and warn from cancer.

The OGF(opiod growth factor) is one side,he blocks cancer growing and is blocked by naltrexone.

Therefore it is easier possible to get cancer.You cannot have alle benefits in one tablett,that is not possible.Also small doses of naltrexone block OGF.If the dose of Naltrexone is higher blocking is more severe.

On the other side,if you want to block the opiat receptors against stresshormones(endorphins) you need a higher dose.The 50 mg ist FDA approved by Bristol Myers Squibb to block the receptors but for another diagnosis.Opiat addiction.But this makes no difference.My forum:

http://f27.parsimony.net/forum67820/index.htm

Have a nice day Manfred

----- Original Message -----

From:

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:20 PM

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Dr. Furmann is promoting 50mg of Naltrexone which is ...

Dr, Furmann, you say some days you need a second tablet... are you taking the medicine during the day?

JT

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr.Fuhrmann

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 7:18 AM

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Dr. Furmann is promoting 50mg of Naltrexone which is ...

Hallo Kiki!

I am diagnosed having MS about 3 and a half year ago in SMZOst,the second largest Hospital of Vienna,by NMR and liquorpunction pos with oligoclonal bands.I have tried Copaxone,Rebif and Mitoxanthron without benefit,now 50 mg of Nemexin seems to help,but on days with a lot of stress I need a second tablett,which reliefs my pain.

I dont know,if someone in U.S.A.earns money by sending Kps of LDN to people or perscriptons.I am a doctor of internal medicine earn nothing with the MS,I only want ,that the best treatment comes to all MS patients.I hav found the article with the opiatreceptor and I know by my medicinal education,that there is a higher dose necessary to block this receptor fully.I feel very well,since I do so.Manfred

: J Neuroimmunol. 2004 Feb;147(1-2):121-2.

Related Articles,

Links

Antibody response and allogeneic mixed lymphocyte reaction in mu-, delta-, and kappa-opioid receptor knockout mice.Gaveriaux-Ruff C, Simonin F, Filliol D, Kieffer B.Department of Neurobiology, Institute de Genetique et de Biologie Moleculaire et Cellular, BP 163, CU de Strasborg, 67404 Illkirch cedex, France. gaveriau@...The implication of opioid receptors in immune response has been studied using mu-, delta- and kappa-opioid receptor knockout mice. The mutant animals were compared to their wild-type (WT) counterparts for antibody (Ab) response to the prototype Ag keyhole limpet hemocyanin (KLH). Kappa-receptor deficient mice displayed higher Ab titers for either total Ig, IgM, IgG1 or IgG2a isotypes, whereas mu and delta animals behaved as wild-type mice. Therefore, endogenous kappa-receptor activation would tonically inhibit Ab response. Opioid receptor deficient mice were also used to investigate the immunosuppressive action of naltrindole, a delta-opioid receptor antagonist, shown earlier to inhibit graft rejection and the allogeneic mixed lymphocyte reaction (MLR) in vitro. Naltrindole and two related compounds inhibited MLR performed with lymphocytes from wild-type and delta-opioid receptor knockout mice. These compounds also suppressed MLR assayed with cells from triple mu/delta/kappa-opioid receptor mutants. We therefore demonstrate that naltrindole immunosuppressive activity is not mediated by any of the three mu-, delta- or kappa-opioid receptors, but by a target which remains to be discovered.

----- Original Message -----

From: noclue915@...

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:59 PM

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Dr. Furmann is promoting 50mg of Naltrexone which is ...

Dr. Furmann, do you have MS or are you taking naltrexone for another disease? Kiki

[Guest guest]

The abstract shows

a maximum dose of 50 microg/kg twice daily was determined by the s.c. route of administration

That's not 50 MG is it? Isn't that like .0005 MG ? or is it .0000005 MG? I'm not famliar with microg/kg, but it seems a lot smaller than 50 MG or even 3 and 4.5 MG

You seem to be more out to confused the issue and misguide than to inform.

With a sufficient amount of people taking 3 and 4.5 MG, I Think we're on the right track. A few who've taken 50 MG or even thought they were smart and tried 25 MG all complained of problems. Seems like some people tried 6 MG with some success, and others think they've done well on 1.5 MG, but MOST people settle between 3.0 MG and/or 4.5 MG

If you don't believe the Theorie of Dr. Bihari, then maybe you shouldn't be here. Those of us who didn't believe the theory but tried LDN anyway have found something that works well for many of us.

50 MG blocks endorphins completely, other than not doing heroin or drinking alcohol, it doesn't seem to benefit people with MS who've tried it.

Something's wrong in Denmark.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr.Fuhrmann

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 10:39

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Dr. Furmann is promoting 50mg of Naltrexone which is ...

Hi JT!

Yes, I dont believe on the Theorie of Dr.Bilhari and therefore I dont take it at night.I take it when I stand up in the morning.When there is a lot of stress and I feel more symptoms for example at 11 a.m.,I take a second tablett Nemexin and a approximately two hours later it is quite better.My theorie is not that of "symphonie of endorphins" or so,I dont know what Dr.Bilhari means exactly.My theorie is blocking the new opiat receptor,which speeds up the immunsystem.Dr.Bihari could not have known about this receptor,because it is discovered only some month ago.You can read a lot of this and other new findings on my forum,but it is inGerman.The abstract are in English.You can put question in it for all and I will answer.I will also answer the mail about my symptoms from Zora.

To JT,who is concerned because i encourage 50 mg and warn from cancer.

The OGF(opiod growth factor) is one side,he blocks cancer growing and is blocked by naltrexone.

Therefore it is easier possible to get cancer.You cannot have alle benefits in one tablett,that is not possible.Also small doses of naltrexone block OGF.If the dose of Naltrexone is higher blocking is more severe.

On the other side,if you want to block the opiat receptors against stresshormones(endorphins) you need a higher dose.The 50 mg ist FDA approved by Bristol Myers Squibb to block the receptors but for another diagnosis.Opiat addiction.But this makes no difference.My forum:

http://f27.parsimony.net/forum67820/index.htm

Have a nice day Manfred

----- Original Message -----

From:

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:20 PM

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Dr. Furmann is promoting 50mg of Naltrexone which is ...

Dr, Furmann, you say some days you need a second tablet... are you taking the medicine during the day?

JT

-----

[Guest guest]

I think it is important to remember our own doctors' reactions to our claims about LDN. It is not impossible that the larger dose of Naltrexone acts in a different manner and has some beneficial effect. I just don't know. Anecdotal evidence is all we truly have to demonstrate the effectiveness of LDN, and we become frustrated when that is not given any value. Dr Fuhrmann may or may not have something valid going on with the 50mg dose. I don't know. He is offering anecdotal evidence, and I can't see scoffing at his anecdotal evidence any more than scoffing at our own. He is also offering a brief scientific explanation, the details of which I don't understand any better than the details of the science behind LDN. I'm not going to change what I'm doing without a lot more information, but I'm also not going to ignore new information as it becomes available.

I seem to remember at least one member here who started at 50mg and had great results. I wish I could remember who it was, and the duration of that dosage, etc.

I'm not willing to ignore possibilities. And right or wrong, what does Dr Fuhrmann gain by sharing this information with us?

JT

----- Original Message -----

From: LarryGC

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 11:13 AM

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Dr. Furmann is promoting 50mg of Naltrexone which is ...

The abstract shows

a maximum dose of 50 microg/kg twice daily was determined by the s.c. route of administration

That's not 50 MG is it? Isn't that like .0005 MG ? or is it .0000005 MG? I'm not famliar with microg/kg, but it seems a lot smaller than 50 MG or even 3 and 4.5 MG

You seem to be more out to confused the issue and misguide than to inform.

With a sufficient amount of people taking 3 and 4.5 MG, I Think we're on the right track. A few who've taken 50 MG or even thought they were smart and tried 25 MG all complained of problems. Seems like some people tried 6 MG with some success, and others think they've done well on 1.5 MG, but MOST people settle between 3.0 MG and/or 4.5 MG

If you don't believe the Theorie of Dr. Bihari, then maybe you shouldn't be here. Those of us who didn't believe the theory but tried LDN anyway have found something that works well for many of us.

50 MG blocks endorphins completely, other than not doing heroin or drinking alcohol, it doesn't seem to benefit people with MS who've tried it.

Something's wrong in Denmark.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr.Fuhrmann

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 10:39

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Dr. Furmann is promoting 50mg of Naltrexone which is ...

Hi JT!

Yes, I dont believe on the Theorie of Dr.Bilhari and therefore I dont take it at night.I take it when I stand up in the morning.When there is a lot of stress and I feel more symptoms for example at 11 a.m.,I take a second tablett Nemexin and a approximately two hours later it is quite better.My theorie is not that of "symphonie of endorphins" or so,I dont know what Dr.Bilhari means exactly.My theorie is blocking the new opiat receptor,which speeds up the immunsystem.Dr.Bihari could not have known about this receptor,because it is discovered only some month ago.You can read a lot of this and other new findings on my forum,but it is inGerman.The abstract are in English.You can put question in it for all and I will answer.I will also answer the mail about my symptoms from Zora.

To JT,who is concerned because i encourage 50 mg and warn from cancer.

The OGF(opiod growth factor) is one side,he blocks cancer growing and is blocked by naltrexone.

Therefore it is easier possible to get cancer.You cannot have alle benefits in one tablett,that is not possible.Also small doses of naltrexone block OGF.If the dose of Naltrexone is higher blocking is more severe.

On the other side,if you want to block the opiat receptors against stresshormones(endorphins) you need a higher dose.The 50 mg ist FDA approved by Bristol Myers Squibb to block the receptors but for another diagnosis.Opiat addiction.But this makes no difference.My forum:

http://f27.parsimony.net/forum67820/index.htm

Have a nice day Manfred

----- Original Message -----

From:

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:20 PM

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Dr. Furmann is promoting 50mg of Naltrexone which is ...

Dr, Furmann, you say some days you need a second tablet... are you taking the medicine during the day?

JT

-----

[Guest guest]

Hello Dear LDNer,

I have read all the messages here and I am gratefull to participate

on Your Experiencies with LDN.

However, I also read the messages of Dr. Fuhrman.

Instead of trying to see the backgrounds of dr. Bihari´s Theory on

LDN, dr Fuhrman proposes a fully different workingprincip of

opioidantagonists. His theory is, the blocking of all the opioid

receptors, including a yet not known, proposed receptor, must be

immune suppressive. However, that is definitivly not true.

The problem ist, there are a lot of experimental study´s that have

shown contradictory results. The usual normal dose of Naltrexone

boosts Your Immunesystem wich means, Your MS may worsen. Therefore I

must warn You for taking higher doses as 6 mg a day.

You can find a very good E-Book in the www with a very good capitle

about opioids and the immunesystem by Sacerdote and several other

international known investegators at:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?

call=bv.View..ShowSection & rid=eurekah.chapter.10978

It is a very medical publication, hard to read for people without a

medical education.

Dr. Bihari says, LDN works, while it puts up the level of natrurally

Endorphins in the immunecells. That is correct. All the known

Antagonists have a biphasic workingprincip. In very low doses they

increase the level of Endorphins. And that is what is working

immunesuppressive. Beta-interferons like avonex, betaseron and rebif

also increase the intracellular level of the Endorphins and the

scientific world now believes, the Immunsystem is being regulated not

only by cyokines but also by opioids and they act as a counterpart of

eachother. If the cytokinesystem makes an up regulation, the

opioidsystem will downregulate it again, and vv.

In MS, there is an overactivity of proinflammatory cytokines, wich

induces an upregulation of the immune cells. Naltrexone in very low

doses modulates the opioid receptors on immunecells and attenuates

the effect of the naturally endorphins. The Immuneresponse is

being " normalised " .

After passing a " Point of no return " increasing the dose of

Naltrexone suddenly blocks these effects and intracellular levels of

endorphins will decrease again. This causes an Upregulation of the

Immunecells as well.

Taken at higher doses than 10 mg, Naltrexone may cause a worsening of

diseases like MS, Crohn´s disease, colitis, psoriasis and rheumatoid

arthritis. It also may have the effect, that some kinds of cancer may

worsen unther higher doses of Naltrexone,

Therefore: please stay at your doses of 3-4,5 mg once daily.

Theoreticly this works, but we need to do a lot of research on LDN

and find out how good it really is. If it really is as good as the

interferons are, LDN must be introduced in our therapeutic repertoire

for MS.

Preliminary results of the survey done by (LDN research Trust)

and Dr. Coles in the UK ar very exiting! Please see for the

results: http://ldners.org/Reports/LDN_Survey1_Analysis.pdf

To me: I am a german neurologist and I am very interested to read

Your experiencies here and am very interested on more scientific

information about LDN. I would be gratefull if could me help me in

the last point.

Read You further,

Siep Kreijenveld

[Guest guest]

is it possible to send Dr. Behari the articles what Dr. Furmann posted here ?

Zora

I think it is important to remember our own doctors' reactions to our claims about LDN. It is not impossible that the larger dose of Naltrexone acts in a different manner and has some beneficial effect. I just don't know. Anecdotal evidence is all we truly have to demonstrate the effectiveness of LDN, and we become frustrated when that is not given any value. Dr Fuhrmann may or may not have something valid going on with the 50mg dose. I don't know. He is offering anecdotal evidence, and I can't see scoffing at his anecdotal evidence any more than scoffing at our own. He is also offering a brief scientific explanation, the details of which I don't understand any better than the details of the science behind LDN. I'm not going to change what I'm doing without a lot more information, but I'm also not going to ignore new information as it becomes available.

I seem to remember at least one member here who started at 50mg and had great results. I wish I could remember who it was, and the duration of that dosage, etc.

I'm not willing to ignore possibilities. And right or wrong, what does Dr Fuhrmann gain by sharing this information with us?

[Guest guest]

I totally agree that this Dr. should not be on this forum. It concerns

me that people may try and take his advice without doing all the

research and that if he doesn't agree with Dr. Bahari's theories he

should stick to his own forum.

On 3-Oct-04, at 12:13 PM, LarryGC wrote:

> The abstract shows

>  

>  a maximum dose of 50 microg/kg twice daily was determined by the s.c.

> route of administration

>  

> That's not 50 MG is it?  Isn't that like .0005 MG ?  or is it .0000005

> MG?  I'm not famliar with microg/kg, but it seems a lot smaller than

> 50 MG or even 3 and 4.5 MG

>  

> You seem to be more out to confused the issue and misguide than to

> inform. 

>  

> With a sufficient amount of people taking 3 and 4.5 MG, I Think we're

> on the right track.  A few who've taken 50 MG or even thought they

> were smart and tried 25 MG all complained of problems.  Seems like

> some people tried 6 MG with some success, and others think they've

> done well on 1.5 MG, but MOST people settle between 3.0 MG and/or 4.5

> MG

>  

> If you don't believe the Theorie of Dr. Bihari, then maybe you

> shouldn't be here.  Those of us who didn't believe the theory but

> tried LDN anyway have found something that works well for many of us.

>  

> 50 MG blocks endorphins completely, other than not doing heroin or

> drinking alcohol, it doesn't seem to benefit people with MS who've

> tried it. 

>  

> Something's wrong in Denmark.

>  

>  

>  

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Dr.Fuhrmann

> low dose naltrexone

> Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 10:39

> Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Dr. Furmann is promoting 50mg of

> Naltrexone which is ...

>

> Hi JT!

>  

> Yes, I dont believe on the Theorie of Dr.Bilhari and therefore I dont

> take it at night.I take it when I stand up in the morning.When there

> is a lot of stress and I feel more symptoms for example at 11 a.m.,I

> take a second tablett Nemexin and a approximately two hours later it

> is quite better.My theorie is not that of " symphonie of endorphins " or

> so,I dont know what Dr.Bilhari means exactly.My theorie is blocking

> the new opiat receptor,which speeds up the immunsystem.Dr.Bihari could

> not have known about this receptor,because it is discovered only some

> month ago.You can read a lot of this and other new findings on my

> forum,but it is inGerman.The abstract are in English.You can put

> question in it for all and I will answer.I will also answer the mail

> about my symptoms from Zora.

> To JT,who is concerned because i encourage 50 mg and warn from cancer.

> The OGF(opiod growth factor) is one side,he blocks cancer growing and

> is blocked by naltrexone.

> Therefore it is easier possible to get cancer.You cannot have alle

> benefits in one tablett,that is not possible.Also small doses of

> naltrexone block OGF.If the dose of Naltrexone is higher blocking is

> more severe.

> On the other side,if you want to block the opiat receptors against

> stresshormones(endorphins) you need a higher dose.The 50 mg ist FDA

> approved by Bristol Myers Squibb to block the receptors but for

> another diagnosis.Opiat addiction.But this makes no difference.My

> forum:

>  

>  

> http://f27.parsimony.net/forum67820/index.htm

>  

> Have a nice day Manfred

>  

> ----- Original Message -----

> From:

> low dose naltrexone

> Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:20 PM

> Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Dr. Furmann is promoting 50mg of

> Naltrexone which is ...

>

> Dr, Furmann, you say some days you need a second tablet... are you

> taking the medicine during the day?

>  

> JT

> -----

>

>

>

>