Re: The Wide ranges in armour doses?

[Guest guest]

I think the issue is that there is no agreement on how many times more

potent than T4 it is. My pharmacist friend let me look at the BNF the

other day and T3 is listed as 5 times more active...

Leah x

>

> Just wondered why my dose of 2 grains of Armour is calculated as

> 148-200mcg? That seems a very wide range. I was on 175mcg of T4 when I

> was taking it for the most part. Just wondered if when it builds up I

> will be over or under because of the wide range, how can this be? Is

> it because T3 really has no equivalent doses to T4? Read somewhere it

> was 4x as active.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Leah,

http://www.bnf.org/bnf/extra/current/450027.htm

Bob

> I think the issue is that there is no agreement on how many times more potent than T4 it is. My pharmacist friend let me look at the BNF the other day and T3 is listed as 5 times more active...

[Guest guest]

Hi

And to be fair to the BTA may be why they dont recommend it and

consider it to be inconsistent.

Chris

>

> I think the issue is that there is no agreement on how many times

more

> potent than T4 it is. My pharmacist friend let me look at the BNF

the

> other day and T3 is listed as 5 times more active...

>

> Leah x

> >

> > Just wondered why my dose of 2 grains of Armour is calculated as

> > 148-200mcg? That seems a very wide range. I was on 175mcg of T4

when I

> > was taking it for the most part. Just wondered if when it builds

up I

> > will be over or under because of the wide range, how can this

be? Is

> > it because T3 really has no equivalent doses to T4? Read

somewhere it

> > was 4x as active.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

As the BTA say they are " ... a non-profit making Learned Society of professional clinical specialist doctors and scientists in the United Kingdom who manage patients with thyroid disease and/or are researching into the thyroid and its diseases in humans"...then surely,they should KNOW.

T3 is thought to be between four and five times as potent as T4.(1, 2) The absorption of oral T4 can be variable (50 to 73%), contrasting with that of T3 that is more constant and efficient (95%).(3, 4)

1. Asper SP Jr, Selenkow HA, and Plamondon CA. "A comparison of the metabolic activities of 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine and l-thyroxine in myxedema". Bull s Hopkins Hosp. 1953; 93: 164

2. Blackburn CM, McConahey WM, Keating FR Jr, Albert A. "Calorigenic effects of single intravenous doses of l-triiodothyronine and l-thyroxine in myxedematous persons". J Clin Invest. 1954 Jun;33(6):819-2

3. Hays MT. "Absorption of oral thyroxine in man". J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1968; 28 (6):749-56

4. Surks MI, Schodlow AR, Stock Jm, Oppenheimer JH. "Determination of iodothyronine absorption and conversion of L-thyroxine using turnover rate techniques". J Clin Invest. 1973; 52:809-11

Sheila

> And to be fair to the BTA may be why they dont recommend it and > consider it to be inconsistent. > > Chris> > I think the issue is that there is no agreement on how many times > more > > potent than T4 it is. My pharmacist friend let me look at the BNF > the > > other day and T3 is listed as 5 times more active...> > > > Leah x

[Guest guest]

Perhaps that is the wrong way of calculating it and they should not be measuring one against the other and just give people sufficient to make them well regardless of the equivalent thyroxine.

In my case it does not work. I was taking 5 grains as the dose which suited me the most, but if I had the equivalent in thyroxine I would be well over the top - I would suspect as I have never tried it.

That is why I think we have to start at very small doses of Armour, even if we were on higher doses of thyroxine before.

It could be that some of us partly convert and others do not convert at all. Therefore surely those who partly convert might not need as much as those who do not convert, and those who do not convert might need more T3 whereas those who partly convert need more T4.

Maybe the BTA do not like Armour because they cannot monitor it by blood tests alone, especially the TSH.

At one time we had our family doctor who you and your family saw every time. He could tell whether you were well or not well just by looking at you and talking to you. He would know whether there had been an improvement or not.

Nowadays the doctor does not know you or your family. He will not see that having taken Armour how much you have improved or otherwise. They have to rely more and more on blood tests than they used to.

Lilian

Does anyone live in the Essex/Hertfordshire area and who goes to the PAH hospital, please contact me privately.

[Guest guest]

....and it is such lack of knowledge we are campaigning against.

Sheila

And to be fair to the BTA may be why they dont recommend it and consider it to be inconsistent. Chris

..

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[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila

Having taken it myself for 25 years prior to T4 only along with

thousands of millions of other people I would imagine there is a

fair amount of knowledge.

Dont take this as " challenging you " I am not, I am trying to be

totally realistic. I do have many years first hand experience of

both equivalent doses i.e. 0.2mg armour and 200mcg thyroxine,

therefore I am sitting on the fence so to speak.

Chris

>

> ...and it is such lack of knowledge we are campaigning against.

>

> Sheila

>

>

> And to be fair to the BTA may be why they dont recommend it and

> consider it to be inconsistent.

>

> Chris

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi

To be fair to the BTA.

They (by their own definitions) can't be fair to between 25-35% of

thyroid patients.

By Chinnery's (Newcastle U) estimate, maybe 1 in 200 folk carry

a mitochondrial mutation that then interacts with the 'nuclear' DNA to

cause (potentially) adrenal/thyroid dysfunction that might account for

something like 30-50% (my ball-park) of those afflicted (one way or

another) with diseases involving both aspects of HPA axis disregulation.

I think the BTA are going to have to review their protocols and admit

previous versions have been undermined by more recent evidence ( as

might be expected).

I can imagine one or two heads being scratched as to how they can

accommodate the implications of the mitochondrial problem.

It certainly isn't by harassing people who have a much better idea on

treatment than they have.....and it may not involve thyroid

hormone 'adjustments' if they can get the thyroid gland to function

properly in the first place.

The application of new knowledge to mental ill-health that arises in

thyroid/adrenal malfunction has to be factored in, and as quickly as

is consistent with the current state of knowledge......

For example, it might be worth asking Myhill's opinion on the

inferences for thyroid (hormone) treatment.

Others in similar pioneering positions need encouragement not

harassment.

best wishes

Bob

> Hi

> And to be fair to the BTA may be why they dont recommend it and

consider it to be inconsistent.

> Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi Lilian

According to rat studies then you would need to take 500mcg

thyroxine to gain the T3 you were getting from the 5 grains, if its

5 grains you need. But your T4 would be way over the top, mine is

but because I am not hyper its ok. The equivalent dose has never

changed, it was the same 40 years ago as it is now.

Chris

>

> Perhaps that is the wrong way of calculating it and they should

not be measuring one against the other and just give people

sufficient to make them well regardless of the equivalent thyroxine.

>

> In my case it does not work. I was taking 5 grains as the dose

which suited me the most, but if I had the equivalent in thyroxine I

would be well over the top - I would suspect as I have never tried

it.

>

>> Lilian

> Does anyone live in the Essex/Hertfordshire area and who goes to

the PAH hospital, please contact me privately.

>

[Guest guest]

Dawn,

You wrote:

> ... Is

> it because T3 really has no equivalent doses to T4? Read somewhere it

> was 4x as active.

Yes, the 4x factor is based on causing equivalent changes in TSH. The

problem is the factor varies between people and varies with dose, since

the TSH response is not linear. Also, the difference in half lives makes

it difficult to compare " activity. "

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Sheila,

Thank you, a keeper. This corrects something I said earlier, about

roughly equating T3 and T4 absorption, based on the equal tendency for

food to interfere with absorption.

This makes Armour even more of a T3 source. Unfortunately, this also

supports the concerns about the higher T3/T4 ratio causing local

excesses of T3 in tissues that would normally only see T3 from

conversion. There may be more recent studies absorption studies. I'll

have to look.

Chuck

You quoted:

>

> T3 is thought to be between four and five times as potent as T4.^(1, 2)

> The absorption of oral T4 can be variable (50 to 73%), contrasting with

> that of T3 that is more constant and efficient (95%).^(3, 4)

>

> 1. Asper SP Jr, Selenkow HA, and Plamondon CA. " A comparison of

> the metabolic activities of 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine and l-thyroxine in

> myxedema " . Bull s Hopkins Hosp. 1953; 93: 164

>

> 2. Blackburn CM, McConahey WM, Keating FR Jr, Albert A.

> " Calorigenic effects of single intravenous doses of l-triiodothyronine

> and l-thyroxine in myxedematous persons " . J Clin Invest. 1954

> Jun;33(6):819-2

>

> 3. Hays MT. " Absorption of oral thyroxine in man " . J Clin

> Endocrinol Metab. 1968; 28 (6):749-56

>

> 4. Surks MI, Schodlow AR, Stock Jm, Oppenheimer JH. " Determination

> of iodothyronine absorption and conversion of L-thyroxine using turnover

> rate techniques " . J Clin Invest. 1973; 52:809-11

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Chuck

Armour does have a higher amount of T3 compared to T4 than the relative amounts of T3 to T4 secreted by the human thyroid gland, however it is well documented that Armour is often more effective and is better tolerated than synthetic preparations of T4, T3 and T4/T3 combination.(1) This is because the T3 in natural thyroid extract is absorbed more slowly than synthetic (purified, unbound) T3.(2)

Hertoghe T, Lo Cascio A., Hertoghe J. "Considerable improvement of hypothyroid symptoms with two combined T3-T4 medication in patients still symptomatic with thyroxine treatment alone". Anti-Aging Medicine (Ed. German Society of Anti-Aging Medicine-Verlag 2003) 2004; 32-43

Alan R. Gaby, MD "Alternative Medicine Review" Volume 9, Number 2, 2004

Sheila,

_______________________Thank you, a keeper. This corrects something I said earlier, about roughly equating T3 and T4 absorption, based on the equal tendency for food to interfere with absorption.This makes Armour even more of a T3 source. Unfortunately, this also supports the concerns about the higher T3/T4 ratio causing local excesses of T3 in tissues that would normally only see T3 from conversion. There may be more recent studies absorption studies. I'll have to look.ChuckYou quoted:> > T3 is thought to be between four and five times as potent as T4.^(1, 2) > The absorption of oral T4 can be variable (50 to 73%), contrasting with > that of T3 that is more constant and efficient (95%).^(3, 4)> > 1. Asper SP Jr, Selenkow HA, and Plamondon CA. "A comparison of > the metabolic activities of 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine and l-thyroxine in > myxedema". Bull s Hopkins Hosp. 1953; 93: 164> > 2. Blackburn CM, McConahey WM, Keating FR Jr, Albert A. > "Calorigenic effects of single intravenous doses of l-triiodothyronine > and l-thyroxine in myxedematous persons". J Clin Invest. 1954 > Jun;33(6):819-2> > 3. Hays MT. "Absorption of oral thyroxine in man". J Clin > Endocrinol Metab. 1968; 28 (6):749-56> > 4. Surks MI, Schodlow AR, Stock Jm, Oppenheimer JH. "Determination > of iodothyronine absorption and conversion of L-thyroxine using turnover > rate techniques". J Clin Invest. 1973; 52:809-11> > No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.17/1655 - Release Date: 05/09/2008 19:05

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila

Just a thought, I have a feeling Armour is banned in Germany because

of its fillers, but I may be wrong.

Chris

>

>

This is because the T3 in natural thyroid extract is absorbed more

slowly than synthetic (purified, unbound) T3.(2)

> 1.. Hertoghe T, Lo Cascio A., Hertoghe J. " Considerable

improvement of hypothyroid symptoms with two combined T3-T4

medication in patients still symptomatic with thyroxine treatment

alone " . Anti-Aging Medicine (Ed. German Society of Anti-Aging

Medicine-Verlag 2003) 2004; 32-43

> Sheila,

> _______________________

>

[Guest guest]

Why would the fillers in Armour be banned in Germany? I know of people in Germany who use Armour, and I know people in other European countries who use Armour. Some countries may have problems with Customs - but it is no more banned over there because of its 'fillers' as it is banned in the UK. It is not licensed in Germany as it is not licensed in the UK.

Sheila

Hi SheilaJust a thought, I have a feeling Armour is banned in Germany because of its fillers, but I may be wrong.Chris>> This is because the T3 in natural thyroid extract is absorbed more slowly than synthetic (purified, unbound) T3.(2) > 1.. Hertoghe T, Lo Cascio A., Hertoghe J. "Considerable improvement of hypothyroid symptoms with two combined T3-T4 medication in patients still symptomatic with thyroxine treatment alone". Anti-Aging Medicine (Ed. German Society of Anti-Aging Medicine-Verlag 2003) 2004; 32-43 > Sheila,> _______________________>

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[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila

This is only what I have heard, I dont know but maybe its something

to do with its Titanium Oxide content which is banned in Germany and

checking on the international pharmacy webside under country

restrictions, Germany is restricted.

Chris

> >

>

> >

> This is because the T3 in natural thyroid extract is absorbed

more

> slowly than synthetic (purified, unbound) T3.(2)

> > 1.. Hertoghe T, Lo Cascio A., Hertoghe J. " Considerable

> improvement of hypothyroid symptoms with two combined T3-T4

> medication in patients still symptomatic with thyroxine

treatment

> alone " . Anti-Aging Medicine (Ed. German Society of Anti-Aging

> Medicine-Verlag 2003) 2004; 32-43

> > Sheila,

> > _______________________

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

>

>

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> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

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06/09/2008 20:07

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[Guest guest]

The Armour Thyroid product available from Forest Pharmaceuticals contains:

1. Thyroid Powder, USP2. Dextrose, Anhydrous3. Microcrystalline Cellulose, NF4. Sodium Starch Glycolate, NF5. Calcium Stearate, NF6. Opadry White (titanium dioxide used as a whitening agent)

I cannot think why Armour would be banned because it contained this 'inactive' ingredient. Anybody know please.

Luv - sheila

Hi SheilaThis is only what I have heard, I dont know but maybe its something to do with its Titanium Oxide content which is banned in Germany and checking on the international pharmacy webside under country restrictions, Germany is restricted. Chris> >> > > > This is because the T3 in natural thyroid extract is absorbed more > slowly than synthetic (purified, unbound) T3.(2) > > 1.. Hertoghe T, Lo Cascio A., Hertoghe J. "Considerable > improvement of hypothyroid symptoms with two combined T3-T4 > medication in patients still symptomatic with thyroxine treatment > alone". Anti-Aging Medicine (Ed. German Society of Anti-Aging > Medicine-Verlag 2003) 2004; 32-43 > > Sheila,> > _______________________> > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.17/1657 - Release Date: 06/09/2008 20:07>

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[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila

Titanium Dioxide (E171) is an additive - banned in Germany. As far

as I know it pollutes waterways and is found in toothpaste and

paint. I am sure Bob and Chuck can elaborate on this.

Chris

> > >

> >

> > >

> > This is because the T3 in natural thyroid extract is absorbed

> more

> > slowly than synthetic (purified, unbound) T3.(2)

> > > 1.. Hertoghe T, Lo Cascio A., Hertoghe J. " Considerable

> > improvement of hypothyroid symptoms with two combined T3-T4

> > medication in patients still symptomatic with thyroxine

> treatment

> > alone " . Anti-Aging Medicine (Ed. German Society of Anti-Aging

> > Medicine-Verlag 2003) 2004; 32-43

> > > Sheila,

> > > _______________________

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------------

> -----------

> >

> >

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.17/1657 - Release

Date:

> 06/09/2008 20:07

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

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>

>

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06/09/2008 20:07

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[Guest guest]

to Sheila and all, the body and the earth have it`s own rhythm . the earth is moving all the time, and also are we, so if the T3 is more in armour than levothyroxine is not important.the body adjusts itself, only uses what it needs . well that is my take on it all. angel.

[Guest guest]

Sheila,

You wrote:

> ... T3 in natural thyroid extract is

> absorbed more slowly than synthetic (purified, unbound) T3.(2)

If Armour is a natural timed release version of T3, then this would rule

out sublingual administration, right?

Chuck

[Guest guest]

You wrote:

>

> Titanium Dioxide (E171) is an additive - banned in Germany. ...

> I am sure Bob and Chuck can elaborate on this.

News to me, since TiO2 is what makes paper and many paint pigments

white. It has also been used for years in creams and ointments, e.g. in

UV blocking cream.

This may come from various companies voluntarily excluding nanomaterials

from their organic products, since TiO2 is one of the first materials to

be made in nanoparticle form.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

This could be a reason:

Toxicology

Titanium dioxide has recently been classified by the International

Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) as an IARC Group 2B carcinogen

possibly carcinogenic to humans.[17] Titanium dioxide accounts for

70% of the total production volume of pigments worldwide. It is

widely used to provide whiteness and opacity to products such as

paints, plastics, papers, inks, foods, and toothpastes. It is also

used in cosmetic and skin care products, and it is present in almost

every sunblock, where it helps protect the skin from ultraviolet

light.

With such widespread use of titanium dioxide, it is important to

understand that the IARC conclusions are based on very specific

evidence. This evidence showed that high concentrations of pigment-

grade (powdered) and ultrafine titanium dioxide dust caused

respiratory tract cancer in rats exposed by inhalation and

intratracheal instillation*. The series of biological events or

steps that produce the rat lung cancers (e.g. particle deposition,

impaired lung clearance, cell injury, fibrosis, mutations and

ultimately cancer) have also been seen in people working in dusty

environments. Therefore, the observations of cancer in animals were

considered, by IARC, as relevant to people doing jobs with exposures

to titanium dioxide dust. For example, titanium dioxide production

workers may be exposed to high dust concentrations during packing,

milling, site cleaning and maintenance, if there are insufficient

dust control measures in place. However, it should be noted that the

human studies conducted so far do not suggest an association between

occupational exposure to titanium dioxide and an increased risk for

cancer.

The Workplace Hazardous Materials Information System (WHMIS) is

Canada's hazard communication standard. The WHMIS Controlled

Products Regulations require that chemicals, listed in Group 1 or

Group 2 in the IARC Monographs on the Evaluation of the Carcinogenic

Risk of Chemicals to Humans, be classified under WHMIS Class D2A

(carcinogenic). The classification decision on titanium dioxide has

been published on the IARC website and in a summary article

published in The Lancet

Representatives from Health Canada (National Office of WHMIS)

recently consulted with the Quebec CSST and CCOHS (the two main

agencies providing WHMIS classifications to the public) regarding

the implications of the IARC decision to the WHMIS classification of

titanium dioxide. It was agreed that titanium dioxide does now meet

the criteria for WHMIS D2A (carcinogen) based on the information

released by IARC to date, and that it is not necessary to wait for

release of the full monograph.

Manufacturers and suppliers of titanium dioxide are advised to

review and update their material safety data sheets and product

labels based on this new information as soon as possible. Employers

should review their occupational hygiene programs to ensure that

exposure to titanium dioxide dust is eliminated or reduced to the

minimum possible. Workers should be educated concerning this

potential newly recognized risk to their health and trained in

proper work procedures.

>

> News to me, since TiO2 is what makes paper and many paint pigments

> white. It has also been used for years in creams and ointments,

e.g. in

> UV blocking cream.

>

> This may come from various companies voluntarily excluding

nanomaterials

> from their organic products, since TiO2 is one of the first

materials to

> be made in nanoparticle form.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

Last year we had students in a tizzy when they were directed to do an

experiment involving " diatomaceous earth. " The MSDS classed it as an

inhalation carcinogen, similar to the classification of TiO2. They were

going to use this material under a vented hood, while they wore gloves

and respiratory gear. At least they said they were, until we pointed out

to them that " diatomaceous earth " means chalk dust.

The problem is that just about any material that can be pulverized and

inhaled will cause lung cancer with repeated exposure. Cotton mills

generate fibers that diseased a generation. Stone cutters, pipe fitters,

HVAC insulators, coal miners, etc. all have characteristic respiratory

diseases associated with their career paths.

If it isn't nitrogen, oxygen, or water vapor, it does not belong in our

lungs. That doesn't mean it will be a hazard in food, medicine, or on

our skin, though.

Chuck

You wrote:

>

>

> This could be a reason:

>

> Toxicology

> Titanium dioxide has recently been classified by the International

> Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) as an IARC Group 2B carcinogen

> possibly carcinogenic to humans.[17] Titanium dioxide accounts for

> 70% of the total production volume of pigments worldwide. It is

> widely used to provide whiteness and opacity to products such as

> paints, plastics, papers, inks, foods, and toothpastes. It is also

> used in cosmetic and skin care products, and it is present in almost

> every sunblock, where it helps protect the skin from ultraviolet

> light.

>

> With such widespread use of titanium dioxide, it is important to

> understand that the IARC conclusions are based on very specific

> evidence. This evidence showed that high concentrations of pigment-

> grade (powdered) and ultrafine titanium dioxide dust caused

> respiratory tract cancer in rats exposed by inhalation and

> intratracheal instillation*.

[Guest guest]

Hiya and thanks

I got even more out of that question than I expected :)/

Oh by the way, what is that natural dessicated thyroid brand that is

totally hypoallergenic, is it Biothroid?

lotsa luv

Dawnx

[Guest guest]

You started this discussion by saying that you believed Armour had been banned in Germany because it contained Titanium dioxide. If this is the case, one wonders why they have not banned?

Luv - Sheila

It is widely used to provide whiteness and opacity to products such as paints, plastics, papers, inks, foods, and toothpastes. It is also used in cosmetic and skin care products, and it is present in almost every sunblock, where it helps protect the skin from ultraviolet light.

..

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[Guest guest]

Hmm! ...scratches head! Is

Luv - Sheila

Sheila,You wrote:> ... T3 in natural thyroid extract is > absorbed more slowly than synthetic (purified, unbound) T3.(2)If Armour is a natural timed release version of T3, then this would rule out sublingual administration, right?Chuck

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