Guest guest Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 > Oestradiol less than 19 (meno range less 201) > Progesterone less 0.3 (follicular phase 0.06 - 4.7 and luteal phase > 5.3 - 86.0) > FSH 46.2 (25.0 - 135.0) Gosh Mo. That's low estradiol. At my lowest on a blood test I was less than 46 with the post meno range up to 172. On my latest blood test before ERT in August I was 102 range 37 -145. My progesterone now is less than 1 range 0.3- 2.5. Did they not give you a post meno progesterone range? If not I think you should ask for one or else how can you possibly know where you stand, although it sounds low to me but I'm guessing. I had to ring abnd ask for the post meno range because one wasn't given. Just like yours there was a discrepancy between my blood and saliva results. What does your doctor say? x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 I don't get to see the doctor until Friday Marlen and I am distraught here. I really hoped I had found the solution to all my problems with optimising. Remind me , how much difference was there between your saliva and your blood results? I was very hard put to find £49 to pay for that saliva test and I am not well pleased. No range given for prog. it was the receptionist as usual. I will ask the doctor on Friday. It was high last time on saliva testing a couple of years ago, Mo > > > > Oestradiol less than 19 (meno range less 201) [Edit Abbrev Mod] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 > Oestradiol less than 19 (meno range less 201) > Progesterone less 0.3 (follicular phase 0.06 - 4.7 and luteal phase > 5.3 - 86.0) > Anyone know about this or how to work out the ratio??? I'm not sure how you'd work out the ratio here Mo because you have to divide the higher number by the lower number but you have no definitive numbers here at all, just less than something. But if you take 19 and 0.3 as your numbers then the ratio is 63.333, if it's worked out as Genova does it on the saliva test but then you have no target range to judge that ratio by as they give, so I think there must be a different way of doing it. And of course we're talking about a differnet medium here, don't know if that makes a difference. So I have no idea if the Lee scale of 200:1 applies here or not. I'll be ever so interested to know your doctors comments. Sorry not to be more helpful. x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 Oh you ARE being helpful ! You really are, I am feeling very upset here and tearful and it is good to talk to someone who is interested and cares. Mo > > > > Oestradiol less than 19 (meno range less 201) > > Progesterone less 0.3 (follicular phase 0.06 - 4.7 and luteal phase > > 5.3 - 86.0) > > > Anyone know about this or how to work out the ratio??? > > > I'm not sure how you'd work out the ratio here Mo because you have to > divide the higher number by the lower number but you have no > definitive numbers here at all, just less than something. > > But if you take 19 and 0.3 as your numbers then the ratio is 63.333, > if it's worked out as Genova does it on the saliva test but then you > have no target range to judge that ratio by as they give, so I think > there must be a different way of doing it. And of course we're talking > about a differnet medium here, don't know if that makes a difference. > So I have no idea if the Lee scale of 200:1 applies here or not. > > I'll be ever so interested to know your doctors comments. Sorry not to > be more helpful. > > x > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 > > I don't get to see the doctor until Friday Marlen and I am distraught > here. I really hoped I had found the solution to all my problems with > optimising. > Remind me , how much difference was there between your saliva > and your blood results? > I was very hard put to find £49 to pay for that saliva test and I am > not well pleased. > No range given for prog. it was the receptionist as usual. I will ask > the doctor on Friday. It was high last time on saliva testing a > couple of years ago, Hi Mo Last year my saliva estrogen was 2.1 (<3.0) and my blood estrogen was very low at <46 (up to 172). When my GP saw the blood results she said it was very low and said I could do with some replacement but it was another year before I took her up on that. Could it not be Mo that if your estrogen levels really are as low as they appear to be according to the bloods that sex hormones could still be a factor in your not optimising but just not in quite the way you imagined? I could be totally wrong about that though as I'm still learning about the connection myself. Sorry to hear you're so distraught. I think in your shoes I would be too. See what you can get out of your doctor on Friday. I know some of the time they can be pretty useless but maybe, just maybe, he might shed some light on the proceedings. Don't lose heart. The answer will come. x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 I agree that is looks as though you don't have an appropriate range to interpret the progesterone reading. Here's what Dr Lee says about testing hormone levels in " What your doctor may not tell you about menopause " , pages 299-300. " The usual way to test hormone levels has been with a blood test that measures the blood serum or blood plasma content of the hormones. These tests are inherently irrelevant since bioavailable " free " hormone is not soluble in serum. Bioavailable sex hormones are fat soluble and circulate in blood via fatty substances not found in serum, such as red blood cell membranes. What is important is how much progesterone circulates through the target tissues for progesterone action. We now know that the non-protein-bound hormone molecule, when circulating through the saliva tissue, will filter directly into the saliva, whereas protein-bound (nonbioavailable) hormone does not. Thus, saliva levels reflect tissue levels of sex hormones, and serum tests do not. " So it sounds like the blood test measures how much hormone is floating about, but the saliva test measures how much hormone is actually available for use. Miriam > Oestradiol less than 19 (meno range less 201) > Progesterone less 0.3 (follicular phase 0.06 - 4.7 and luteal phase > 5.3 - 86.0) > FSH 46.2 (25.0 - 135.0) > > So no high oestradiol and I am unsure about the progesterone > as I thought the follicular and luteal phases only applied to > menstruating women. > Anyone know about this or how to work out the ratio??? > I think I have relieved and disappointed simultaneously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Thanks for this Miriam. What puzzles me about Dr Lee's explanation is this. How could I have almost undetectable oestradiol level in my blood sample and through the roof oestradiol with the saliva test if blood sample only shows what is in the blood and that amount then has to get into the cells. How could it have increased by the time it got into the cells? Do you see what I mean, if it was higher in the blood sample, then Dr Lee's explanation would make more sense. Mo Mo > > I agree that is looks as though you don't have an appropriate range to > interpret the progesterone reading. > > Here's what Dr Lee says about testing hormone levels in " What your > doctor may not tell you about menopause " , pages 299-300. > > " The usual way to test hormone levels has been with a blood test that > measures the blood serum or blood plasma content of the hormones. > These tests are inherently irrelevant since bioavailable " free " > hormone is not soluble in serum. Bioavailable sex hormones are fat > soluble and circulate in blood via fatty substances not found in > serum, such as red blood cell membranes. What is important is how > much progesterone circulates through the target tissues for > progesterone action. We now know that the non-protein-bound hormone > molecule, when circulating through the saliva tissue, will filter > directly into the saliva, whereas protein-bound (nonbioavailable) > hormone does not. Thus, saliva levels reflect tissue levels of sex > hormones, and serum tests do not. " > > So it sounds like the blood test measures how much hormone is floating > about, but the saliva test measures how much hormone is actually > available for use. > > Miriam > > > > Oestradiol less than 19 (meno range less 201) > > Progesterone less 0.3 (follicular phase 0.06 - 4.7 and luteal phase > > 5.3 - 86.0) > > FSH 46.2 (25.0 - 135.0) > > > > So no high oestradiol and I am unsure about the progesterone > > as I thought the follicular and luteal phases only applied to > > menstruating women. > > Anyone know about this or how to work out the ratio??? > > I think I have relieved and disappointed simultaneously. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 > > Thanks for this Miriam. > What puzzles me about Dr Lee's explanation is this. > How could I have almost undetectable oestradiol level in my blood > sample and through the roof oestradiol with the saliva test if blood > sample only shows what is in the blood and that amount then has to > get into the cells. > How could it have increased by the time it got into the cells? This puzzled me too. Had something changed between having the two tests? Had you stopped a supplement or something that could account for the difference? I know there wasn't a huge amount of time between the two tests so that seems pretty unlikely but it's all I can think of. Obviously something's going on here that as yet we don't understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 The onky thing that I changed was adding in melatonin an dropping the betablocker. Lab 21 said they were going to consult with their medical adviser but that was Monday and I have heard nothing from them since. It is a mystery. Mo Obviously something's going on here that as yet we don't > understand. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 > > Thanks for this Miriam. > What puzzles me about Dr Lee's explanation is this. Mo, didn't you say you used a small amount of estrogel just before the saliva test? Apparently that travels very quickly into the tissues after being absorbed into the bloodstream. Could that not explain your high estradiol result? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Yes but a tiny amount of it . About one sixteenth of the daily recommended dose for HRT purposes. With an undetectable oestradiol with the bloods, if you try to imagine adding in this very small amount, I cannot see that it would come up to 165.6 when the top of the post-meno range was a 6. ?? Do you think it could do that? Mo > > > > > > Thanks for this Miriam. > > What puzzles me about Dr Lee's explanation is this. > > > Mo, didn't you say you used a small amount of estrogel just before the > saliva test? Apparently that travels very quickly into the tissues > after being absorbed into the bloodstream. Could that not explain your > high estradiol result? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Hello Mo, I thought you told us that the saliva test was distorted by other supplements you were taking, such as the melatonin? So it wasn't really showing high oestradiol. Could that be the explanation? Miriam > How could I have almost undetectable oestradiol level in my blood > sample and through the roof oestradiol with the saliva test if blood sample only shows what is in the blood and that amount then has to get into the cells. > How could it have increased by the time it got into the cells? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Thing is Miriam, if something affected the saliva test then it would have also affected the blood test as there was only a few days between them, they did the saliva Friday morning and the bloods Tuesday. I surmised that the betablockers (which lowers melatonin) may have caused a rise in oestrogen as a result as low melatonin can do this. But if this were the case, then it would have been low in the blood testing also. Does that make sense? I am beginning to think that saliva testing is not ideal for sex hormones. Blood testing seems to be the gold standard world-wide from what I am hearing. Mo > > Hello Mo, > > I thought you told us that the saliva test was distorted by other > supplements you were taking, such as the melatonin? So it wasn't > really showing high oestradiol. Could that be the explanation? > > Miriam > > > > How could I have almost undetectable oestradiol level in my blood > > sample and through the roof oestradiol with the saliva test if blood > sample only shows what is in the blood and that amount then has to get > into the cells. > > How could it have increased by the time it got into the cells? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 HI Mo, I have had the same issue with my cortisol blood/saliva tests which were taken on the same day, and the salivas were high over range, and the bloods were low within range. My symptoms indicated the bloods were correct. This has been backed up by treating and eliminating the symptoms. Many people say that the saliva testing is more accurate, but I have to say in my case I don't believe it was. I have been thinking about it a lot, and was wondering what exactly these hormones in the saliva represent? Does saliva just contain these hormones because the hormones are present throughout all bodily fluids, or are these hormones in the saliva because they are being excreted that way (like they do in urine??). If they are being excreted, it is not beyond the realms of possibility (in my mind!) that the levels in the blood and therefore available for use by the body(ie symptomatically) are low, because high amounts are being excreted?? I don't know how well I have verbalised what I mean, but it makes sense to me, perhaps one of the scientists can answer (bob/chuck??).. I am off to see Dr P on Sunday, and I intend to ask him about mine, and try to get his view on the science so I will post then and let you know what he says!! Leah x > > Thing is Miriam, if something affected the saliva test then it would > have also affected the blood test as there was only a few days between > them, they did the saliva Friday morning and the bloods Tuesday. .. > Does that make sense? > > > How could I have almost undetectable oestradiol level in my blood > > > sample and through the roof oestradiol with the saliva test if blood > > sample only shows what is in the blood and that amount then has to get > > into the cells. > > > How could it have increased by the time it got into the cells? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 I don't think it is safe to assume that the same factors that affect a saliva test will also affect a blood test. It is not necessarily the case, particularly as Dr Lee is so emphatic that a saliva test and blood test are not measuring the same thing. For example, in Dr Lee's books he says that if you use natural progesterone cream the increase in progesterone shows up in a saliva test but doesn't show up in a blood test. He says that doctors often claim the natural progesterone cream is useless because they only do a blood test. We seem to have plenty of people on this group who are helped by progesterone cream, so there is anecdotal evidence it does have an effect, despite the blood test showing no change. Miriam > Thing is Miriam, if something affected the saliva test then it would have also affected the blood test ........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 That would be brilliant if you could get Dr P's take on this Leah as I am all at sea. I am becoming cynical about saliva tests as my ASI did not reflect my symptoms either! Mo > > HI Mo, > > I have had the same issue with my cortisol blood/saliva tests which > were taken on the same day, and the salivas were high over range, [Edit Abbrev Mod] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 But to the extent of being almost undetectable from sky high? Something not right here. Mo > > I don't think it is safe to assume that the same factors that > affect a saliva test will also affect a blood test. It is not [Edit Abbrev Mod] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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