RE: Armour to Syn thyroxine

[Guest guest]

Hi Irene - here is a conversion table to help you. http://thyroid.erfa.net/index.php/en/thyroid-monograph.html

Luv - Sheila

Dose of Armour

(grain)

Equivalents

mg

Dose of Desiccated Thyroid (grain)

Dose of T4 (levo thyroxine) mg

Dose of T3 (lio thyronine)

µg

0.5

32

0.5

0.05

12.5

1

65

1

0.1

25

2

130

2

0.2

50

3

200

3

0.3

75

4

260

4

0.4

100

5

325

5

0.5

125

Can anyone tell me off hand what 1 grain of

Armour equates to in

Synthetic thyroxine levels?

Many thanks

Irene

_,_._,___

[Guest guest]

Hi Shela,

My cousin has been on thyroxine for twenty odd years and over the past

few years has had an increasing return of symptoms. She is considering

a mixture of levo and armour but I think she needs to seriously look at

the adrenals. She would come onto the site but is still a bit wary of

the idea of forums. That will come. It's criminal that the adrenal

testing isn't available on the NHS.

Many thanks for the table Sheila

PS She's signed the petition too!

.................

>

> Hi Irene - here is a conversion table to help you.

> http://thyroid.erfa.net/index.php/en/thyroid-monograph.html

> Luv - Sheila

> Can anyone tell me off hand what 1 grain of Armour equates to in

> Synthetic thyroxine levels?

> Many thanks

> Irene

[Guest guest]

> Based on the effect on TSH, 1 grain of Armour is equivalent to 100

mcg

> of levothyroxine. However, equivalence in TSH lowering is not the

same

> as therapeutic effect, which will depend, among other things, on how

the

> medication is taken.

>

> Chuck

Thanks Chuck, as she wants to do a mix of levo and Armour,would she

then be better to start lower and work up like a new start? Like

supplement a 1/3rd with Armour but make the make the Armour the

Equivalent of a reduced dosage and then work up? I must look through

the files as it wasn't relevant for me as I've gone straight to Armour

(no passing go or collecting £200).

I enjoyed your inspiring quotes last week.Was one Edmund Schumacher

the " small is beautiful " economist man. Just curious.

Thanking you, Irene

[Guest guest]

Your doc would get the mix of T4 and T3 all in the Armour tablet.

Why would she want to treat you with T4 if you are not converting and making

the T3?

luv - Sheila

Thanks Chuck, as she wants to do a mix of levo and Armour,would she

then be better to start lower and work up like a new start? Like

supplement a 1/3rd with Armour but make the make the Armour the

Equivalent of a reduced dosage and then work up? I must look through

the files as it wasn't relevant for me as I've gone straight to Armour

(no passing go or collecting £200).

I enjoyed your inspiring quotes last week.Was one Edmund Schumacher

the " small is beautiful " economist man. Just curious.

Thanking you, Irene

 

[Guest guest]

Irene,

I think those were Sheila's quotes.

You wrote:

>

> Thanks Chuck, as she wants to do a mix of levo and Armour,would she

> then be better to start lower and work up like a new start?...

That is always a good approach. A couple of caveats, though.

If the Armour increases too much, it is fairly easy to back off.

However, if the levothyroxine goes too far, you won't feel it right

away, but when the hyperT storm starts, it won't stop for several days.

So, I would be more cautious incrementing the T4. Also, you eventually

should check the blood levels, since it is quite possible to be on the

high side and not feel it.

One last thing, proper administration is critical with a mixture, more

so than with either alone. The problem is that taking Armour with food

doesn't just reduce the dose. It changes the mix. T4 gets much more

interference from food than T3. Consequently, if you take Armour with

food, you are mostly getting the T3 and not the T4. If you change back

and stop taking it with food, it is the equivalent of unknowingly hiking

the T4 dose.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

" So, I would be more cautious incrementing the T4. Also, you

eventually should check the blood levels, since it is quite possible

to be on the high side and not feel it. "

>

Hi Chuck

Can you tell me the dangers of blood tests being on the high side,

please? I haven't had a blood test for two and a half years and have

been on Armour plus 25mg thyroxin, but the last couple of days upped

my 25mg of thyroxin to 50mg, and dropped one grain of Armour, as

Armour is now becoming difficult to get. I felt awful yesterday,

tired all day, and couldn't sleep all night and realized that my body

needs the T3.

Having said that, despite feel physically tired, I was much more

mentally alert and so I've gone back to my old dose of Armour, but

kept the increase of T4.

Am I doing myself any long term harm, here?

Love

Jan

>

[Guest guest]

Jumping in here Jan, but no doubt Chuck will be along to answer

your questions. Everybody who takes natural thyroid extract will have high Free

T4 and high Free T3 - though the T3 is likely to be higher in the range than

T4. Sometimes, your Free T3 might be over the top of the reference range,

depending on when you took your medication before your blood test. This is why

we recommend you stopping your T3 for at least 24 hours before you get your

blood drawn, because it peaks after a couple of hours in the blood. Doctors get

frightened and tell you you are going hyperthyroid and should cut it down

immediately. Your TSH will be suppressed, probably completely suppressed, but

this is to be expected as your body is getting all the thyroid hormones it

needs to make it function.

All the higher grains of Armour should be available at the end

of 2008, or so Forest Pharmaceuticals and Afshin at IP have told me.

Luv - Sheila

Hi Chuck

Can you tell me the dangers of blood tests being on the high side,

please? I haven't had a blood test for two and a half years and have

been on Armour plus 25mg thyroxin, but the last couple of days upped

my 25mg of thyroxin to 50mg, and dropped one grain of Armour, as

Armour is now becoming difficult to get. I felt awful yesterday,

tired all day, and couldn't sleep all night and realized that my body

needs the T3.

Having said that, despite feel physically tired, I was much more

mentally alert and so I've gone back to my old dose of Armour, but

kept the increase of T4.

Am I doing myself any long term harm, here?

Love

Jan

.._,___

[Guest guest]

I thought that when just on armour the FT4 is quite low in the range and the FT3 fairly high. I had to add 50mcg thyroxine to make my FT4 just below mid-range.

Val

Everybody who takes natural thyroid extract will have high FreeT4 and high Free T3 - though the T3 is likely to be higher in the range thanT4.

[Guest guest]

Not for everybody Val - the FT4 is usually in the upper

third of the reference range and the FT3 quite high. I found I still had a few

symptoms when on Armour alone and tried the experiment of adding a little more

T3 - didn't work - and then added 25 mcgs to Armour, which did work. Some

Armour doctors believe that everybody taking Armour should add a little extra

T4 to get the balance of hormones right.

Luv - Sheila

I thought that when just on armour the FT4 is quite

low in the range and the FT3 fairly high. I had to add 50mcg

thyroxine to make my FT4 just below mid-range.

Val

_._,___

[Guest guest]

" This is one thing I would love to know, especially as most peep's

have a very suppressed TSH when taking either of these medications,

but especially Armour - which seems to suppress TSH even more than

just T3 - or is that just my imagination? "

If Armour contains everything our thyroid would produce, then it would

seem logical to me that there would be no heart or bone damage despite

a totally suppressed TSH.

As thyroxin is deficient in everything but T4, perhaps the reason they

like the TSH not to be very suppressed is because you need a bit of

your own thyroid to produce a small amount of the rest of the hormones

in an attempt to protect against heart and bone damage?

Am I way off here? I don't mind being wrong, and I'm happy to be

corrected.

Jan

[Guest guest]

This is one thing I would love to know, especially as most peep's have

a very suppressed TSH when taking either of these medications, but

especially Armour - which seems to suppress TSH even more than just T3

- or is that

I've just had a thought (another one! sorry).

Perhaps the pituitry gland responds to more than just T4 in the blood.

If Armour has everything in it that the body needs, then the pituitry

gland doesn't need to send out thryoid stimulating hormone. There

would be no need.

On the other hand, thyroxin has only T4, so the pituitry gland detects

there is insufficient calcitonin, T1,T2,T3, etc, so sends out more TSH.

(Logic has never been my strong point, but I worked this out all by

myself!!! Couldn't have done that before Armour.)

Jan

[Guest guest]

This is my theory Jan and the one I have mentioned to

more than one person on the forum. It makes complete sense to me that there is

no need for TSH when your body is getting all the thyroid hormones it requires

that are in Armour.

Luv - Sheila

This is one thing I would love to know,

especially as most peep's have

a very suppressed TSH when taking either of these medications, but

especially Armour - which seems to suppress TSH even more than just T3

- or is that

I've just had a thought (another one! sorry).

Perhaps the pituitry gland responds to more than just T4 in the blood.

If Armour has everything in it that the body needs, then the pituitry

gland doesn't need to send out thryoid stimulating hormone. There

would be no need.

On the other hand, thyroxin has only T4, so the pituitry gland detects

there is insufficient calcitonin, T1,T2,T3, etc, so sends out more TSH.

(Logic has never been my strong point, but I worked this out all by

myself!!! Couldn't have done that before Armour.)

Jan

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila,

You wrote:

>

>

> This is one thing I would love to know,

Wouldn't we all?

> .... very suppressed TSH when taking either of these medications, but

> especially Armour - which seems to suppress TSH even more than just T3 -

> or is that just my imagination?

I would imagine they are similar, but T3 combinations are less common

and much more variable. It's hard to compare.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Jan,

You wrote:

>

> ...Perhaps the pituitry gland responds to more than just T4 in the blood...

It responds most sensitively to T3. T4, RT3, and T2 cause a much smaller

response. T1 hardly at all.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Hi Jan,

Ask Sheila- she's had a bone scan and it improved- my doc

isn't interested!

Stenning

Subject: Armour to Syn thyroxine

Jan,

You wrote:

>

> ...If Armour contains everything our thyroid would produce, then it

would

> seem logical to me that there would be no heart or bone damage despite

> a totally suppressed TSH....

>

> Am I way off here? I don't mind being wrong, and I'm happy to be

> corrected.

>

Chuck

------------------------------------

TPA is not medically qualified. Consult with a qualified medical

practitioner before changing medication.

[Guest guest]

I've had two bone scans since I started Armour over 5 years ago

- no idea about the state of my bones BEFORE Armour, but the first bone scan

showed no problems whatsoever and the second scan, three years later, I was

told the scan showed my bones were as strong as an elephants. The claim of the

danger of T3, either synthetic or natural inducing osteoporosis is very much

exaggerated. Recent studies have found that thyroid therapy is not a

significant contributing factor in bone loss. [1-2] Dr. Thierry Hertoghe,

a fourth generation specialist in hormone therapy, recommends a variety of

hormones for different bone losses. [3] Combination therapy of

oestrogen and thyroid hormone, either T4 or T3, has been patented, [4] so why

don't our doctors know about this? The danger is overstated. Those with bone loss are

predominately post-menopausal women with an oestrogen deficiency. [5-7] There

is also one study that shows the improvement of osteoporosis with thyroid treatment.(8) Thyroid hormone

replacement has no effect on bone density. [9-15]. If your GP/endocrinologists

uses these two conditions as a reason NOT to prescribe you a T3 containing

product, challenge him to produce the studies and evidence to show he is

correct. S/he will not be able to, but you can produce the references to show

s/he is incorrect. What is a fact is that your doctor is quite probably denying you

a medication that will help you regain your normal health.

1.Cobin RH, Thyroid Hormone Excess and Bone – A Clinical

Review, Endocr Pract., 1995 Nov-Dec; 1(6):404-9

2.Lowe JC, The Metabolic Treatment of Fibromyalgia, McDowell

Publishing Company, 2000, pg 958

3.Hertoghe T, The Hormone Solution, Harmony Books, 2002, pg 137

4.Tomoshi M, Kawakitayama A, Shinichiro A, Kawakitayama KA,

Hiroyuki O, Pharmaceutical Composition for Treatment of Osteoporosis, European

Patent EPO 424954, Filed 26

5.Oct 1990

6.Taelman P, Kaufman JM, Janssens X, Vandecauter H, Vermeulen A.

Reduced forearm bone mineral content and biochemical evidence of increased bone

turnover in women with euthyroid goitre treated with thyroid hormone. Clin

Endocrinol (Oxf). 1990 Jul;33(1):107-17

7.Stall GM, S, Sokoll LJ, Dawson- B. Accelerated Bone

Loss in Hypothyroid Patients Overtreated with L-thyroxine. Ann Intern Med. 1990

Aug 15;113(4):265-9

7. Adlin EV, Maurer AH, Marks

AD, Channick BJ. Bone Mineral Density in Postmenopausal Women Treated with

L-thyroxine. Am J Med. 1991 Mar;90(3):360-6

8.Svanberg E, Healey J,

Mascarenhas D. Anabolic effects of rhIGF-I/IGFBP-3 in vivo are influenced by

thyroid status. Eur J Clin Invest. 2001 Apr;31(4):329-36

9 'Tremollieres F, Pouilles

JM, Louvet JP, Ribot C. Transitory Bone Loss During Substitution Treatment for

Hypothyroidism. Results of a Two Year Prospective Study. Rev Rhum Mal

Osteoartic. 1991 Dec;58(12):869-75

10.Ribot C, Tremollieres F,

Pouilles JM, Louvet JP. Bone Mineral Density and Thyroid Hormone Therapy. Clin

Endocrinol (Oxf). 1990 Aug;33(2):143-53

11.Schneider DL,

Barrett-Connor EL, Morton DJ. Thyroid hormone use and bone mineral density in

elderly women. JAMA 1994;271:1245-9

12. Greenspan SL, Greenspan

FS, Resnick NM, Block JE, Friedlander AL, Genant HK. Skeletal Integrity in

Premenopausal and Postmenopausal Women Receiving Long-term L-thyroxine Therapy

Am J Med. 1991;91:5-14

13. lyn JA, Betteridge

J, Daykin J, Holder R, Oates GD, Parle JV, Lilley J, Heath DA, Sheppard Mc.

Long-term Thyroxine Treatment and Bone Mineral Density. Lancet. 1992 Jul

4;340(8810):9-13

14. Eulry F, Bauduceau B,

Lechevalier D, Magnin J, Crozes P, Flageat J, Gautier D. Bone Density in

Differentiated Cancer of the Thyroid Gland Treated by Hormone-suppressive

Therapy. Rev Rhum Mal Osteoartic. 1992 Apr;59(4):247-52

15. Grant DJ, McMurdo ME,

Mole PA, Paterson CR, Davies RR. Suppressed TSH Levels Secondary to Thyroxine

Replacement Therapy Are Not Associated with Osteoporosis. Clin Endocrinol

(Oxf). 1993 Nov;39(5):529-33.

There was a vast improvement in the reduction of heart attacks

found by Dr. Broda when using the desiccated thyroid (Armour Thyroid)

therapy.(1) Undoubtedly, this has been ignored by the BTA and other medical

associations.Another study by Benson shows that the results are virtually

equivalent (, B MD, Hypothyroidism: The Unsuspected Illness, Harper

& Row, 1976, pgs 142-144, 178-18). The statement by the BTA and

so many others that there is no scientific proof is simply not true.

1. , B MD, Hypothyroidism: The Unsuspected Illness,

Harper & Row, 1976, pgs 142-144, 178-1810.

2. Benson K,

Hartz AJ, A Comparison of Observation Studies and Randomized Controlled Trials,

NEJM, June 22, 2000, pgs 1878-86.

Luv - Sheila

________________________________

Hi Jan,

Ask Sheila- she's had a bone scan and it improved- my doc

isn't interested!

Stenning

Subject: Armour to Syn thyroxine

Jan,

You wrote:

>

> ...If Armour contains everything our thyroid would produce, then it

would

> seem logical to me that there would be no heart or bone damage despite

> a totally suppressed TSH....

>

> Am I way off here? I don't mind being wrong, and I'm happy to be

> corrected.

>

Chuck

__

[Guest guest]

HI sheila, are they giving you bone scans in an attempt to prove

something,if they are I don't think its working

Best wishes

keith

>

> I've had two bone scans since I started Armour over 5 years ago -

no idea

> about the state of my bones BEFORE Armour, but the first bone scan

showed no

> problems whatsoever and the second scan, three years later, I was

told the

> scan showed my bones were as strong as an elephants. The claim of

the danger

>>

>

> __

>

[Guest guest]

Does he do any of the campaining himself Sheila? I mean does he pass the word to other Endos, it may be taken on board better if it came from a professional

Yes - my endocrinologists recommends Armour for me and for several of his patients who don't do well on levothyroxine alone. He encourages me to continue with my campaigning to get the correct information about Armour thyroid out to all of the endocrinologists and the try to get the BTA to change it's mind. It is important to him that he gets the evidence to show that for those on natural thyroid extract (or synthetic T3) that their bones do not turn to mush and he was delighted with my results. He had a grin from ear to ear when he told me my results.

luv - Sheila

HI sheila, are they giving you bone scans in an attempt to prove something,if they are I don't think its workingBest wishes keith--- In thyroidpatientadvoc acygroups (DOT) com, "Sheila " <

_,_._,___

[Guest guest]

Hi Chuck, I have been taking thyroid meds for quite some time also progesterone cream.I had a bone scan in august and my bones are excellent. so if you start out hypo and your body is getting all that it requires then you should be ok. my mum had graves or hash`s don`t no which as she was never diagnosed by GP , but she had bone problems and only given calcium6 months be for she died aged 89. she ended up bent right over you would have to she her to believe how much. if you have graves this is auto-antibodies against the TSH then this could lead to bone problems I believe.natural thyroid contains calcitonin. which is what i take.regards angel.

[Guest guest]

I doubt it. He is an NHS endocrinologist and he is fully aware

of the risk he is taking recommending Armour, as are all of the other doctors

who either recommend or prescribe Armour. Even though this has been accepted by

the GMC, doctors are fully aware they are being kept a very close eye on and

should they put a step wrong in any other direction, they will be reported and

risk losing their livelihood. I do know he recommends the prescribing of Armour

to his colleagues though. There is some very dirty medicine going on out here.

Sheila

Does he do any of the

campaining himself Sheila? I mean does he pass the word to other Endos, it

may be taken on board better if it came from a professional

Yes - my endocrinologists recommends

Armour for me and for several of his patients who don't do well on

levothyroxine alone. He encourages me to continue with my campaigning to get

the correct information about Armour thyroid out to all of the

endocrinologists and the try to get the BTA to change it's mind. It is

important to him that he gets the evidence to show that for those on natural

thyroid extract (or synthetic T3) that their bones do not turn to mush and he

was delighted with my results. He had a grin from ear to ear when he told me

my results.

luv - Sheila

HI sheila, are they giving you bone scans in an attempt to

prove

something,if they are I don't think its working

Best wishes

keith

--- In thyroidpatientadvoc acygroups (DOT) com, " Sheila

"

<

_,_._,___