Re: Dr Hertoghe book really useful...

[Guest guest]

I agree Dr Hertoghe's book is excellent. I asked Dr P about all those

other hormones and he said he started with the most common

deficiencies, the ones that would have the most impact, and could look

at others later if necessary.

It is possible to be deficient in both oestrogen and progesterone.

That is the case with me so I am having to supplement both. How about

having the lab test from Genova Diagnostics? I would not supplement

with oestrogen unless I had evidence I needed it because too much

oestrogen is very common and can cause all kinds of problems.

Miriam

> However, I recently bought The Hormone Solution from Thierry

> Hertoghe, and have found it really useful...

> I have now got a suspicion of an estrogen deficiency causing my

>cyclical problems which I had never considered beofre ( in fact I was

>considering taking progesterone - and am glad I didn't!)...

[Guest guest]

Miriam May I ask where you get your oestrogen and progesterone? I

am awaiting saliva results from Lab 21 and may need to supplement

both, probably will.

Oestrogel has been donated to me, have you heard of this?

Also I think I would need a vaginal oestrogen as well for urinary

incontinence.

If you have any info I wouold be very grateful as I am very new to

dealing with this.

thanks.

Mo

>

> I agree Dr Hertoghe's book is excellent. I asked Dr P about all

> those other hormones and he said he started with the most common

> deficiencies, the ones that would have the most impact, and could

[Edit Abbrev Mod]

[Guest guest]

One more question

Is Dr Hertoghe's book very expensive and where is it available from?

Tata

Mo

:

>

> I agree Dr Hertoghe's book is excellent. I asked Dr P about all

those

> other hormones and he said he started with the most common

> deficiencies, the ones that would have the most impact, and could

look

> at others later if necessary.

>

> It is possible to be deficient in both oestrogen and progesterone.

> That is the case with me so I am having to supplement both. How

about

> having the lab test from Genova Diagnostics? I would not supplement

> with oestrogen unless I had evidence I needed it because too much

> oestrogen is very common and can cause all kinds of problems.

>

> Miriam

>

>

> > However, I recently bought The Hormone Solution from Thierry

> > Hertoghe, and have found it really useful...

>

> > I have now got a suspicion of an estrogen deficiency causing my

> >cyclical problems which I had never considered beofre ( in fact I

was

> >considering taking progesterone - and am glad I didn't!)...

>

[Guest guest]

I am using Serenity natural progesterone cream and Red Clover and

Black Cohosh, both from Wellsprings, Guernsey. The Red Clover and

Black Cohosh says it contains isoflavones which compete with

oestradiol at the cell binding site. I would have thought this would

make levels of oestrogen even lower, but it is what Dr P suggested I

try. It is supposed to help regulate hormone levels rather than

supplementing them.

I see is using Estrogel, so it would be interesting to hear

how she is getting on with it. Is it a natural form of oestrogen, and

is it used in replacement doses only? According to what I have read

most conventional treatments (tablets) contain doses of hormones which

are too high.

How did you manage to get Estrogel on the NHS ? Would a GP pay

any attention to a hormone test from Genova Diagnostics? Or was it by

symptoms?

Miriam

> Miriam May I ask where you get your oestrogen and progesterone?

> Oestrogel has been donated to me, have you heard of this?

[Guest guest]

If you are talking about 'The Hormone Handbook by Thierry Hertoghe

Mo, this costs 250 Euros with another 25 Euros for handling charge. I was

very lucky, as this was a gift from Dr Hertoghe to me. I could never have

afforded this. You will find his other books on Amazon, and if you buy from

there, please don't forget to go to our website www.tpa-uk.org.uk and in the right hand

column on the Home Page, you can click on the Amazon link there. TPA-UK gets a

small percentage.

luv - Sheila

One more question

Is Dr Hertoghe's book very expensive and where is it available from?

Tata

Mo

:

>

_,___

[Guest guest]

So even though your E was low on testing, Dr felt it best not to take

any oestrogen? Maybe I should slow down on this after all......

How low was your oestrogen Miriam if I may ask? Are you post-meno

like me?

Mo

>

> I am using Serenity natural progesterone cream and Red Clover and

> Black Cohosh, both from Wellsprings, Guernsey. The Red Clover and

> Black Cohosh says it contains isoflavones which compete with

> oestradiol at the cell binding site. I would have thought this

would

> make levels of oestrogen even lower, but it is what Dr P suggested I

> try. It is supposed to help regulate hormone levels rather than

> supplementing them.

>

> I see is using Estrogel, so it would be interesting to hear

> how she is getting on with it. Is it a natural form of oestrogen,

and

> is it used in replacement doses only? According to what I have read

> most conventional treatments (tablets) contain doses of hormones

which

> are too high.

>

> How did you manage to get Estrogel on the NHS ? Would a GP

pay

> any attention to a hormone test from Genova Diagnostics? Or was it

by

> symptoms?

>

> Miriam

>

>

> > Miriam May I ask where you get your oestrogen and progesterone?

>

> > Oestrogel has been donated to me, have you heard of this?

>

[Guest guest]

Mirian I meant to ask do you get the prog. cream from your GP? and,

if not, does s/he know you are using it, recommend its use?

Many thanks.

Mo

>

> I am using Serenity natural progesterone cream and Red Clover and

> Black Cohosh, both from Wellsprings, Guernsey. The Red Clover and

> Black Cohosh says it contains isoflavones which compete with

> oestradiol at the cell binding site.

[Guest guest]

> I see is using Estrogel, so it would be interesting to hear

> how she is getting on with it. Is it a natural form of oestrogen,

and is it used in replacement doses only? According to what I have

read

> most conventional treatments (tablets) contain doses of hormones

which

> are too high.

>

> How did you manage to get Estrogel on the NHS ? Would a GP

pay

> any attention to a hormone test from Genova Diagnostics? Or was

it by

> symptoms?

> Miriam

Hi Miriam and Mo

My reply to Mo hasn't appeared yet,so when it does it may answer a

few of your questions here. Estrogel is bio identical and I

requested it two years post hyst/ooph because of symptoms. My GP had

told me I should have tried it earlier but I held off because of all

bad press it gets.

I read extensively before going down this route, including Dr

Hertoghe's book, and I came to the conclusion that being short of

estrogen, or being unbalanceced between estrogen and progesterone

caused as many problems as too much estrogen. So I gradually felt

easier about taking ERT. But I've gone at a snail's pace. I don't

want to overdo it.

I did have my levels checked before starting, three times in fact,

twice privately and once on the NHS at my request. Blood and saliva.

And I mean to keep on checking as I go along.

It was fairly easy to get my GP to prescribe it as I'd gone through

a surgical menopause two years earlier. I went complaining of

dreadful drenching night sweats and memory loss. She suggested

estrogel as the best one for me because it's so easy to use as much

or as little as you wish.

I don't think she'd have taken note of saliva tests from Genova,

although I did get my own blood test done through LAB 21. I didn't

tell her that though. I wanted a baseline to be able to compare

later down the road.

I have to say though that in general I feel better on estrogen, even

though my adrenals are struggling and my thyroid is really low.

Personally, I feel that if a woman is in meno or post meno then it's

very reasonable of her to request sex hormone testing on the NHS.

Have you tried that?

x

[Guest guest]

>

> If you are talking about 'The Hormone Handbook by Thierry Hertoghe

Mo, this

> costs 250 Euros with another 25 Euros for handling charge. I was very

>

Hi Sheila,

No I think she is talking about the book I mentioned earlier - it's

available on Amazon, and it's less than £10. It's called the Hormone

Solution, Thierry Hertoghe...

Leah x

[Guest guest]

>

> Also I think I would need a vaginal oestrogen as well for urinary

> incontinence.

Mo, I think it would be a great idea to try this. I take a vaginal

estrogen myself, although not for urinary incontinence but I've read

and heard how it can help a lot with it. It's certainly worth a trial

I think. If you're post meno and have such a complaint I can't

understand why your GP hasn't suggested it already.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Leah - there you go Mo - don't forget if you buy to order

from the www.tpa-uk.org.uk website

though *grin*. Oh, how I hate asking for money.

Luv - Sheila

Hi Sheila,

No I think she is talking about the book I mentioned earlier - it's

available on Amazon, and it's less than £10. It's called the Hormone

Solution, Thierry Hertoghe...

Leah x

[Guest guest]

Yes, I am post-meno like you. What Dr P said exactly was that I

should get something from Wellsprings for the low oestrogen and that

they would recommend something. So it was Wellsprings who recommended

the Black Cohosh and Red Clover.

According to Dr Lee, the progesterone to estradiol ratio should be

200-300 : 1. So, with my oestradiol level of 1.7 pg/mL, my

progesterone should be over 340, but instead it is only 63.9. So I

think my progesterone deficiency is much more serious than the

oestrogen one. That is why I am content to take the Black Cohosh and

Red Clover for the time being, even if it isn't doing anything much.

Miriam

> So even though your E was low on testing, Dr felt it best not to

take any oestrogen? Maybe I should slow down on this after all......

> How low was your oestrogen Miriam if I may ask? Are you post-meno

> like me?

> Mo

[Guest guest]

I buy the progesterone cream from Wellsprings in Guernsey. I only go

to see my GP if I want something specific like a test for iron

deficiency or a prescription for an asthma inhaler. I don't feel

there is any point in telling the GP about anything I am doing for my

health because most of it is outside their area of expertise.

Miriam

> Miriam I meant to ask do you get the prog. cream from your GP? and,

> if not, does s/he know you are using it, recommend its use?

> Many thanks.

> Mo

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your comprehensive answer. I expect you are right about

the sex hormone testing on the NHS, but I try not to see my GP unless

it is absolutely unavoidable. It is very awkward having a diagnosis

of ME/CFS because then the GP is not likely to take any symptoms

seriously. I suffer from hot flushes, but I doubt they are

menopause-related because they started 18 years ago with the ME/CFS.

Miriam

> Personally, I feel that if a woman is in meno or post meno then it's

> very reasonable of her to request sex hormone testing on the NHS.

> Have you tried that?

> x

[Guest guest]

> I expect you are right about the sex hormone testing on the NHS,

>but I try not to see my GP unless it is absolutely unavoidable. It

>is very awkward having a diagnosis of ME/CFS because then the GP is

>not likely to take any >symptoms seriously. I suffer from hot

>flushes, but I doubt they are menopause-related because they

>started 18 years ago with the

>ME/CFS.

Hi Miriam

So do your hot flushes have an adrenal component then, maybe to do

with hypoglycemia and low blood sugar? I felt that mine were in part

to do with that but since the estrogel they are so much better.

I understand what you say about your doctor too. That sort of

attitude is all too common and can be pretty devestating when you

already feel low. I think too many of us have been there.

[Guest guest]

So you have more of a prog deficiency than an oestrogenone Miriam?

What was the range for your estrogen result?

Mo

>

> Yes, I am post-meno like you. What Dr P said exactly was that I

> should get something from Wellsprings for the low oestrogen and that

> they would recommend something. So it was Wellsprings who

recommended

> the Black Cohosh and Red Clover.

>

> According to Dr Lee, the progesterone to estradiol ratio should be

> 200-300 : 1. So, with my oestradiol level of 1.7 pg/mL, my

> progesterone should be over 340, but instead it is only 63.9. So I

> think my progesterone deficiency is much more serious than the

> oestrogen one. That is why I am content to take the Black Cohosh

and

> Red Clover for the time being, even if it isn't doing anything much.

>

> Miriam

>

>

> > So even though your E was low on testing, Dr felt it best not to

> take any oestrogen? Maybe I should slow down on this after all......

> > How low was your oestrogen Miriam if I may ask? Are you post-meno

> > like me?

> > Mo

>

[Guest guest]

Possibly, as my adrenal output is very low. It's hard to tell. From

what I have read it seems that all these things are inter-related.

Last year, for a whole year, I did a very low carb diet, and by the

end the hot flushes were much less frequent. It didn't help my

disrupted sleep though. I still sometimes had to get up and eat

something in the middle of the night. I have relaxed the diet a bit

since then as it was pretty restrictive and it didn't solve everything.

It is possible that I could have had sex hormone imbalances for the

last 18 years. I suppose the solution is to tackle things on all

fronts! It's useful to hear about your experience with the Estrogel.

I may try that in a few months if things don't change. I may also

try DHEA (which is also low), but I'm leaving that too for the time being.

Miriam

> So do your hot flushes have an adrenal component then, maybe to do

> with hypoglycemia and low blood sugar? I felt that mine were in part

to do with that but since the estrogel they are so much better.

[Guest guest]

This is also the sort of advice I got from my altdoc. He said there are far better ways of sorting out the estrogen problem that taking or supplementing it, and this was after having my ovaries removed. He put me on novogen & menopace, and of course prog cream.

Val

I am using Serenity natural progesterone cream and Red Clover and> Black Cohosh, both from Wellsprings, Guernsey. The Red Clover and> Black Cohosh says it contains isoflavones which compete with> oestradiol at the cell binding site. I would have thought this would> make levels of oestrogen even lower, but it is what Dr P suggested I> try. It is supposed to help regulate hormone levels rather than> supplementing them.

[Guest guest]

I don't really understand the test results myself, but Dr P's comment

was that I was low in progesterone and oestrogen.

Progesterone was 63.9 pg/mL and Oestradiol was 1.7 pg/mL

Ranges are confusing as there are several:

Progesterone

Luteal Phase, unsupplemented: Low <100; Typical 100-400; Elevated >400

Post menopausal unsupplemented: Low <20; Typical 20-70; Elevated >70

Oral supplemented: Low <100; Typical 100-600; Elevated >600

Cream/Gel supplemented: Low <500; Typical 500-2000; Elevated >2000

Oestradiol

Luteal Phase, unsupplemented: Low < 4; Typical 4-7; Elevated >7

Post Menopause, unsupplemented: Low <1; Typical 1-4; Elevated >4

Oral/patch, supplemented: Low <5; Typical 5-20; Elevated >20

Cream/Gel, supplemented: Low <10; Typical 10-50; Elevated >50.

You can see why I didn't want to type all that out! :-)

I would have interpreted that to mean that as I was post menopausal my

values for both were typical. However, Dr P thought they were both

low, so maybe I don't understand what all these ranges are about?

Miriam

> So you have more of a prog deficiency than an oestrogenone Miriam?

> What was the range for your estrogen result?

[Guest guest]

Oh Miriam, sorry to put you to all that trouble!

I was curious because my results should be back fairly soon from Lab

21, don't know if the ranges are the same as your lab or if they will

give some extensive detail. I thought the luteal phase stuff was only

applicable if menstruating?

I suppose you are at the very bottom of the ranges, a kind of low

normal. Perhaps if you had been even lower Dr P would have suggested

oestrogen? Don't know though cos he suggested prog.d idn't he on the

same results.

Mo

> I don't really understand the test results myself, but Dr P's

comment

> was that I was low in progesterone and oestrogen.

> Progesterone was 63.9 pg/mL and Oestradiol was 1.7 pg/mL

[Edit Abbrev Mod]

[Guest guest]

> Oh Miriam, sorry to put you to all that trouble! ......

....... That's OK :-)

> I was curious because my results should be back fairly soon from Lab

> 21 .......

Well I hope that helps shed light on yours then.

> I thought the luteal phase stuff was only applicable if

menstruating? .......

Yes, so I reckon I can disregard those particular ranges.

Perhaps the reason Dr P wanted me to start progesterone was because of

the ratio of progesterone to oestrogen. There is far too little

progesterone in proportion to the oestrogen. Too much oestrogen can

interfere with thyroid uptake, but I haven't heard that too much

progesterone could.

Miriam

[Guest guest]

Oh yes I forgot that you mentioned the ratio in an earlier email. I

have yet to responds to a couple of your posts from a day or two ago

because I am very ill at the moment and struggling....... Will have a

go tomorrow.

Do you know why it is the oestrogen blocks thyroid receptors? I am

hearing that high progesterone can block adrenal receptors.

Mo

>

>

> > Oh Miriam, sorry to put you to all that trouble! ......

> ...... That's OK :-)

>

> > I was curious because my results should be back fairly soon from

Lab

> > 21 .......

> Well I hope that helps shed light on yours then.

>

> > I thought the luteal phase stuff was only applicable if

> menstruating? .......

> Yes, so I reckon I can disregard those particular ranges.

>

> Perhaps the reason Dr P wanted me to start progesterone was because

of

> the ratio of progesterone to oestrogen. There is far too little

> progesterone in proportion to the oestrogen. Too much oestrogen can

> interfere with thyroid uptake, but I haven't heard that too much

> progesterone could.

>

> Miriam

>

[Guest guest]

Many hypothyroid patients are oestrogen dominant and need to go

on a course of natural progesterone cream to balance the two.

Sheila

Perhaps the reason Dr P wanted me to start progesterone was because of

the ratio of progesterone to oestrogen. There is far too little

progesterone in proportion to the oestrogen. Too much oestrogen can

interfere with thyroid uptake, but I haven't heard that too much

progesterone could.

Miriam

[Guest guest]

Hi Miriam I heard this recently from the moderator on an adrenals

list. She said that progesterone can mimic cortisol and so block

adrenal receptors which would have the knock-on effect of disrupting

thyroid. She felt my high prog. might be implicated in the problems I

am having in getting thyroid into my cells.

I have very high FT3 and no hyper at all. So something is

bind/blocking and she thought this could be the explanation. I will

have to wait for my new results to come in as I cannot find my old

labs for sex hormones, just remember that the prog. was surprisingly

high.

Mo

>

> No, sorry, I haven't come across an explanation of the mechanism by

> which excess oestrogen prevents thyroid utilisation.

>

> Where did you hear that high progesterone could block adrenal

> receptors? And what do you mean by high? I have read several of Dr

> Lee's books and there is no mention of any such problem.

>

> According to Dr Lee the progesterone should be 200 to 300 times the

> level of the oestrogen, so mine should be over 340 pg/mL even with

my

> low level of oestrogen, even higher if my oestrogen was normal. He

> says you need progesterone levels at least that high to protect

> against cancer.

>

> Miriam

>

>

> > Do you know why it is the oestrogen blocks thyroid receptors? I

am

> > hearing that high progesterone can block adrenal receptors.

>

[Guest guest]

So where did the moderator get this information come from? I haven't

come across anything like that in any of the thyroid or hormone books

I have read so far. Not that I am casting aspersions ... just interested.

How much progesterone is too high exactly? What sort of numbers does

she mention? I would like to compare her figures with the ones

Lee considers advisable.

I hope you get to the bottom of this problem of not being able to

utilise the thyroid hormone.

Miriam

> I heard this recently from the moderator on an adrenals

> list. She said that progesterone can mimic cortisol and so block

> adrenal receptors which would have the knock-on effect of disrupting

thyroid.