Re: Dr P chat

[Guest guest]

" I was on 150mcg of T4 how can I possibly not need nearly that ammount again?"

You answered your own question

..."not sure if its the right thing to drop it because I thought I needed more but the cortisone is doing its job and using the T4 more effectively"...

Luv - Sheila

HiJust spoke to Dr P and my incident last night is probably from too much T4 so am dropping back to 50mcg and staying on 20mcg of HC. I am going back to taking the T4 in the mornings too as it was probably too effective for me at night,he says its usual to take T4 in the mornings, not sure if its the right thing to drop it because I thought I needed more but the cortisone is doing its job and using the T4 more effectively, all the opposite to what I thought really and the information I have gathered from friends on here. Still slightly confused as I was on 150mcg of T4 how can I possibly not need nearly that ammount again? He seems to think the anxiety is from too much T4 and my increased heart rate, he said to pay more attention to the pulse rate than the temps because the temps will sort themselves out eventually, so will give the 50mcg a go for a while and see if it helps with the heart rate etc

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[Guest guest]

The opions on here from a few people were that I needed to get my Thyroxine dose back up as quickly as possible, that would have been very foolish and probably quite dangerous too!!! I was told my body was screaming out for more thyroid meds!!--- On Wed, 17/9/08, sheilaturner <sheilaturner@...>

" I was on 150mcg of T4 how can I possibly not need nearly that ammount again?"

You answered your own question

..."not sure if its the right thing to drop it because I thought I needed more but the cortisone is doing its job and using the T4 more effectively" ...

Luv - Sheila

HiJust spoke to Dr P and my incident last night is probably from too much T4 so am dropping back to 50mcg and staying on 20mcg of HC. I am going back to taking the T4 in the mornings too as it was probably too effective for me at night,he says its usual to take T4 in the mornings, not sure if its the right thing to drop it because I thought I needed more but the cortisone is doing its job and using the T4 more effectively, all the opposite to what I thought really and the information I have gathered from friends on here. Still slightly confused as I was on 150mcg of T4 how can I possibly not need nearly that ammount again? He seems to think the anxiety is from too much T4 and my increased heart rate, he said to pay more attention to the pulse rate than the temps because the temps will sort themselves out eventually, so will give the 50mcg a go for a while and see if it helps with the heart rate

etc

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[Guest guest]

Well that is progress , you have some guidance now on where you

are and how to proceed.

The pulse does come up earlier than the temps I have heard and, at

the risk of being repetitive, the average temps would have told you

whether the symptoms that were frightening you were from insufficient

adrenal support or too much thyroid as turned out to be the case.

You did not want to increase your h.c so every cloud etc.

Onwards and upwards!

Mo

> Just spoke to Dr P and my incident last night is probably from too

much

> T4 so am dropping back to 50mcg and staying on 20mcg of HC. I am

going

> back to taking the T4 in the mornings too as it was probably too

> effective for me at night,he says its usual to take T4 in the

mornings,

> not sure if its the right thing to drop it because I thought I

needed

> more but the cortisone is doing its job and using the T4 more

> effectively, all the opposite to what I thought really and the

> information I have gathered from friends on here. Still slightly

> confused as I was on 150mcg of T4 how can I possibly not need

nearly

> that ammount again? He seems to think the anxiety is from too much

T4

> and my increased heart rate, he said to pay more attention to the

pulse

> rate than the temps because the temps will sort themselves out

> eventually, so will give the 50mcg a go for a while and see if it

helps

> with the heart rate etc

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Mo

I dont think my adrenals had stabalized enough before I restarted the T4, I think now I should have gone straight on to 20mg of HC, stayed at that for 2 weeks then restarted my T4, but the advice is to start HC low and build up so I did what I was adviced. With the added HC my body has been able to use the thyroid meds better I think and i seem to have gone over the top with the T4 but I wasnt to know or anyone else for that matter. I am now gonna stop the T4 for a few days and restart again at 50mcg and stay at that for a while, if I can just find a level thats makes me feel resonably ok I will be happy and then maybe after my holiday try to increase the T4 again when I am under less pressure, I am going back to morning dosing of T4 too cos maybe taking it at night causes the anxiety when I wake for the loo and the heart 'do' I had last night, adding back in the T4 probably stressed the adrenals too, I asked Dr P about stress dosing on

HC and he seemed to think it shouldnt be needed but did say I can take double when I get up at 3 am to go on holiday just to see me through that day

Well that is progress , you have some guidance now on where you are and how to proceed.The pulse does come up earlier than the temps I have heard and, at the risk of being repetitive, the average temps would have told you whether the symptoms that were frightening you were from insufficient adrenal support or too much thyroid as turned out to be the case.You did not want to increase your h.c so every cloud etc. :)Onwards and upwards!Mo> Just spoke to Dr P and my incident last night is probably from too much > T4 so am dropping back to 50mcg and staying on 20mcg of HC. I am going > back to taking the T4 in the mornings too as it was probably too > effective for me at night,he says its usual to take T4 in the mornings, > not sure if its the right thing to drop it because I thought I needed > more but the cortisone is doing its job and using the T4

more > effectively, all the opposite to what I thought really and the > information I have gathered from friends on here. Still slightly > confused as I was on 150mcg of T4 how can I possibly not need nearly > that ammount again? He seems to think the anxiety is from too much T4 > and my increased heart rate, he said to pay more attention to the pulse > rate than the temps because the temps will sort themselves out > eventually, so will give the 50mcg a go for a while and see if it helps > with the heart rate etc>

[Guest guest]

,

You wrote:

> The opions on here from a few people were that I needed to get my

> Thyroxine dose back up as quickly as possible, that would have been

> very foolish and probably quite dangerous too!!! I was told my body

> was screaming out for more thyroid meds!!

As I recall, you told the list you were having severe hypoT symptoms resulting

from three weeks without any medication. You also told everyone that those

symptoms were persisting at 50 mcg per day.

The proper way to titrate T4 dosage is with blood tests. If you are treating to

symptoms, then you increase in increments until you reach the threshold of the

hyperT symptoms, then back off. That is effectively what you have done. With

Hashi's, that threshold can change, although usually not by that much.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Hi

As a rule of thumb, the longer you've been hypothyroid the longer it

will take to re-adjust your cardiac muscle adreno-receptors when the

heart sees a rise in thyroid hormones. The composition of the muscle

itself also changes when it sees more thyroid hormones.

Between the muscle, the nerve cell receptors and the varying

components in the chambers of the heart that all react to T3, getting

them all to agree on 'the next move' is quite some task.

That's why slowly, slowly catchee monkey works best.

It may also be a good reason not to use radio-iodine ablation in

cases of hyperthyroidism. It causes too much cardiac muscle stress

for the same reasons that rapid increase of T4 in hypothyroidism also

cause cardiac stress.

best wishes

Bob

>

> The opions on here from a few people were that I needed to get my

Thyroxine dose back up as quickly as possible, that would have been

[Guest guest]

With the added HC my body has been able to use the thyroid meds

better I think and i seem to have gone over the top with the T4 but

I wasnt to know or anyone else for that matter.

I think I am going to have continue to be repetive because I feel

that you are not 'hearing' me .

You WOULD have known that you were going over the top if you had

tracked your average temps. And I think you would lose a lot of the

anxiety through doing this because you would know where you are from

day to day, you would be self-reliant and that would build your

confidence in yourself and your own decisions I am sure. You could be

self-assured rather than reassured? Don't you think?

I asked Dr P about stress dosing on HC and he

> seemed to think it shouldnt be needed but did say I can take

double when I get up at 3 am to go on holiday just to see me through

that day

See how you go. I would recommend it personally but it up to you in

the end what you decide to do about this.

Rather than the 3 am start becoming problematic, why not set your

alarm for a little earlier each day so that, by the time you go, you

will only be getting up maybe a couple of hours (or even less)

earlier than usual?

Mo

[Guest guest]

Hi Mo

I meant I wasnt to know before starting on 75mcg of T4 that it would be too much, am going back on 50mcg tomorrow and see what that does for a while, Dr P seemed to think the at this stage the pulse is more important than the temps although I will still track them

With the added HC my body has been able to use the thyroid meds better I think and i seem to have gone over the top with the T4 but I wasnt to know or anyone else for that matter. I think I am going to have continue to be repetive because I feel that you are not 'hearing' me .You WOULD have known that you were going over the top if you had tracked your average temps. And I think you would lose a lot of the anxiety through doing this because you would know where you are from day to day, you would be self-reliant and that would build your confidence in yourself and your own decisions I am sure. You could be self-assured rather than reassured? Don't you think?Mo

[Guest guest]



Some of us did , but hopefully, once you drop back, we will see how things go. You will still need to increase your thyroxine one day, but as Dr P says, you need to get your adrenals well first.

Sheila

The opions on here from a few people were that I needed to get my Thyroxine dose back up as quickly as possible, that would have been very foolish and probably quite dangerous too!!! I was told my body was screaming out for more thyroid meds!!

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[Guest guest]

I think I should have stayed on 50mcg for longer than I did Sheila and not increase as quick as I did, but the racing heart and anxiety are telling me 75 was too much right now, I didnt take any T4 last night and still had a slight pumping heart in the night but not as bad as the night before, I will restart it again in the morning at 50--- On Thu, 18/9/08, sheilaturner <sheilaturner@...>

 Some of us did , but hopefully, once you drop back, we will see how things go. You will still need to increase your thyroxine one day, but as Dr P says, you need to get your adrenals well first.

Sheila

The opions on here from a few people were that I needed to get my Thyroxine dose back up as quickly as possible, that would have been very foolish and probably quite dangerous too!!! I was told my body was screaming out for more thyroid meds!!

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..

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[Guest guest]

Mo is absolutely right - and Dr Peatfield would have told you that it is VERY important to take both your temperature and pulse when taking HC but especially NC and thyroid hormone replacement so that when something happens like happened to you the other night, you would have been able to tell whether it was your HC that was the cause, or it was your thyroxine. This should not be looked over. I know it can be a bore taking your temperature and pulse and recording it, but this is imperative. As Mo says, you can, this way, take control over your medication and tell whether you need a bit more or a bit less and you will also learn to anticipate whether you are going to need more at certain times also.

Follow Dr Rind's website regarding temperatures here http://www.drrind.com/tempgraph.asp and you will see how this will help you enormously .

Luv - Sheila

With the added HC my body has been able to use the thyroid meds better I think and i seem to have gone over the top with the T4 but I wasnt to know or anyone else for that matter. I think I am going to have continue to be repetive because I feel that you are not 'hearing' me .You WOULD have known that you were going over the top if you had tracked your average temps. And I think you would lose a lot of the anxiety through doing this because you would know where you are from day to day, you would be self-reliant and that would build your confidence in yourself and your own decisions I am sure. You could be self-assured rather than reassured? Don't you think?I asked Dr P about stress dosing on HC and he> seemed to think it shouldnt be needed but did say I can take double when I get up at 3 am to go on holiday just to see me through that daySee how you go. I would recommend it personally but it up to you in the end what you decide to do about this.Rather than the 3 am start becoming problematic, why not set your alarm for a little earlier each day so that, by the time you go, you will only be getting up maybe a couple of hours (or even less) earlier than usual?Mo

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[Guest guest]

But THAT is the point Mo is trying to make . You WOULD have known that you didn't need the extra T4 if you had tracked your daily average temps which show how supported your adrenals are as per Dr Rind. Your daily averages need to be stable (showing good adrenal support) before raising thyroid meds. http://www.drrind.com/tempgraph.asp#directions

When Dr P says your temps will sort themselves out he means your basal temp which shows how supported your thyroid is.

Gillian

> > Hi Mo> I meant I wasnt to know before starting on 75mcg of T4 that it would be too much, am going back on 50mcg tomorrow and see what that does for a while, Dr P seemed to think the at this stage the pulse is more important than the temps although I will still track them> > > > I think I am going to have continue to be repetive because I feel > that you are not 'hearing' me .> You WOULD have known that you were going over the top if you had > tracked your average temps. And I think you would lose a lot of the > anxiety through doing this because you would know where you are from > day to day, you would be self-reliant and that would build your > confidence in yourself and your own decisions I am sure. You could be > self-assured rather than reassured? Don't you think?> > Mo>

[Guest guest]



Both are important - as your metabolism rises, so will your temperature. Check it as per Dr Rind . Write them down so you can see a pattern emerging.

L:uv - Sheila

Dr P seemed to think the at this stage the pulse is more important than the temps although I will still track them

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[Guest guest]



Probably , but you were concerned you were not getting enough thyroxine when on only 50 mcgs - lots of things we do sadly have to be done through trial and error. Learn as much about the adrenal/thyroid connection as you can, this will help ease your stress.

luv - Sheila

I think I should have stayed on 50mcg for longer than I did Sheila and not increase as quick as I did, but the racing heart and anxiety are telling me 75 was too much right now, I didnt take any T4 last night and still had a slight pumping heart in the night but not as bad as the night before, I will restart it again in the morning at 50

..

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[Guest guest]

He actually said at this point the pulse is more important and I know this because the pulse rises before the temps do and my pulse has gone up along with the anxiety and the heart rate too, this to me indicates too much Thyroid meds right now so this is why I have stopped and will go back on at a lower dose, if I can just can some balance right now and stay with that for a while I will feel I am getting some where--- On Thu, 18/9/08, sheilaturner <sheilaturner@...>

Mo is absolutely right - and Dr Peatfield would have told you that it is VERY important to take both your temperature and pulse when taking HC but especially NC and thyroid hormone replacement so that when something happens like happened to you the other night, you would have been able to tell whether it was your HC that was the cause, or it was your thyroxine. This should not be looked over. I know it can be a bore taking your temperature and pulse and recording it, but this is imperative. As Mo says, you can, this way, take control over your medication and tell whether you need a bit more or a bit less and you will also learn to anticipate whether you are going to need more at certain times also.

Follow Dr Rind's website regarding temperatures here http://www.drrind. com/tempgraph. asp and you will see how this will help you enormously .

Luv - Sheila

With the added HC my body has been able to use the thyroid meds better I think and i seem to have gone over the top with the T4 but I wasnt to know or anyone else for that matter. I think I am going to have continue to be repetive because I feel that you are not 'hearing' me .You WOULD have known that you were going over the top if you had tracked your average temps. And I think you would lose a lot of the anxiety through doing this because you would know where you are from day to day, you would be self-reliant and that would build your confidence in yourself and your own decisions I am sure. You could be self-assured rather than reassured? Don't you think?I asked Dr P about stress dosing on HC and he> seemed to think it shouldnt be needed but did say I can take double when I get up at 3 am to go on holiday just to see me through that daySee how you go. I

would recommend it personally but it up to you in the end what you decide to do about this.Rather than the 3 am start becoming problematic, why not set your alarm for a little earlier each day so that, by the time you go, you will only be getting up maybe a couple of hours (or even less) earlier than usual?Mo

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[Guest guest]

Well my temps arent yet stable and I was worried about being off the thyroid for too long as it was, please dont gang up on me, this is hard enough as it is, you make me sound like an idiot and I am not--- On Thu, 18/9/08, gill512002 gill_slater@...

But THAT is the point Mo is trying to make . You WOULD have known that you didn't need the extra T4 if you had tracked your daily average temps which show how supported your adrenals are as per Dr Rind. Your daily averages need to be stable (showing good adrenal support) before raising thyroid meds. http://www.drrind. com/tempgraph. asp#directions

When Dr P says your temps will sort themselves out he means your basal temp which shows how supported your thyroid is.

Gillian

> > Hi Mo> I meant I wasnt to know before starting on 75mcg of T4 that it would be too much, am going back on 50mcg tomorrow and see what that does for a while, Dr P seemed to think the at this stage the pulse is more important than the temps although I will still track them> > > > I think I am going to have continue to be repetive because I feel > that you are not 'hearing' me .> You WOULD have known that you were going over the top if you had > tracked your average temps. And I think you would lose a lot of the > anxiety through doing this because you would know where you are from > day to day, you would be self-reliant and that would build your > confidence in yourself and your own decisions I am sure. You could be > self-assured rather than reassured? Don't you think?> >

Mo>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I'll have to give'em a good 'threshing' in a minute if you feel they're

ganging up on you :-)

Bob

wot objects ter ladies ganging up on .

> Well my temps arent yet stable and I was worried about being off the

thyroid for too long as it was, please dont gang up on me, this is hard

[Guest guest]

So because my adrenals arent yet stable am I right in thinking I need to increase the HC and stay off the thyroid meds yet again?

Or can I increase the HC and just keep on the lower dose of T4? Another set back I feel I have suffered, how many more before I get it right I wonder?

From: bob.m9uk <Bob.m9uk@...>Subject: Re: Dr P chatthyroid treatment Date: Thursday, 18 September, 2008, 9:38 AM

Hi ,I'll have to give'em a good 'threshing' in a minute if you feel they're ganging up on you :-)Bobwot objects ter ladies ganging up on .> Well my temps arent yet stable and I was worried about being off the thyroid for too long as it was, please dont gang up on me, this is hard

[Guest guest]

It is not a question of ganging up Bob, just that somethings need to

be said and are perhaps a little overdue?

Mo

> I'll have to give'em a good 'threshing' in a minute if you feel

they're

> ganging up on you :-)

>

> Bob

> wot objects ter ladies ganging up on .

>

>

>

> > Well my temps arent yet stable and I was worried about being off

the

> thyroid for too long as it was, please dont gang up on me, this is

hard

>

[Guest guest]

My mums just said what I am doing sounds dangerous! Thanks mum! She said I thought this man (Dr P) was meant to make you better not worse. I told her about my beating heart in the night and she said thats not right. anxiety high again today, I am full of doubt and have no confidence in what I am doing anymore--- On Thu, 18/9/08, Mo Osborne <moosborne@...>

It is not a question of ganging up Bob, just that somethings need to be said and are perhaps a little overdue?Mo> I'll have to give'em a good 'threshing' in a minute if you feel they're > ganging up on you :-)> > Bob> wot objects ter ladies ganging up on .> > > > > Well my temps arent yet stable and I was worried about being off the > thyroid for too long as it was, please dont gang up on me, this is hard>

[Guest guest]

What you need to do is track your av. temps and this will tell

you the answers to your questions below.

You will avoid any future setbacks and you will get it right this

time with this very effective tool.

You just need to make a decision to overcome your resistance to doing

it .

Yes, as Sheila says, it is a bit of a nuisance but way less of a

nuisance than being in a constant state of confusion and

consternation.

It will work for you big-time.

Mo

>

> So because my adrenals arent yet stable am I right in thinking I

need to increase the HC and stay off the thyroid meds yet again?

> Or can I increase the HC and just keep on the lower dose of T4?

Another set back I feel I have suffered, how many more before I get

it right I wonder?

>

>

>

>

>

> From: bob.m9uk <Bob.m9uk@...>

> Subject: Re: Dr P chat

> thyroid treatment

> Date: Thursday, 18 September, 2008, 9:38 AM

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Hi ,

>

> I'll have to give'em a good 'threshing' in a minute if you feel

they're

> ganging up on you :-)

>

> Bob

> wot objects ter ladies ganging up on .

>

>

>

> > Well my temps arent yet stable and I was worried about being off

the

> thyroid for too long as it was, please dont gang up on me, this is

hard

>

[Guest guest]

I was just trying to be helpful and it was well meant.

Gillian

>

> Hi ,

>

> I'll have to give'em a good 'threshing' in a minute if you feel

they're

> ganging up on you :-)

>

> Bob

> wot objects ter ladies ganging up on .

[Guest guest]

I know that

From: gill512002 <gill_slater@...>Subject: Re: Dr P chatthyroid treatment Date: Thursday, 18 September, 2008, 10:57 AM

I was just trying to be helpful and it was well meant.Gillian>> Hi ,>> I'll have to give'em a good 'threshing' in a minute if you feelthey're> ganging up on you :-)>> Bob> wot objects ter ladies ganging up on .

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

In perspective, being on 150mcg/day of L-thyroxine with the symptoms

you were experiencing then, were potentially dangerous.

I don't think anyone would wish you to find out the full range of

effects from that position, if it had persisted or worsened.

There's a point beyond which your adrenals give up 'full-time'

support....bit like doing part-time.

The lion tamer has to control his/her levels of anxiety, to be able

to respond to the potential 'risk' from a lion (a bit of a sham) but

you can never tell with 'wild' animals.

The adrenals keep your brain alert to risk with adrenalin.

Cortisol is the counterpart hormone that allows you to maintain that

level of alertness and be ready for action to defend yourself or to

attack if that is an appropriate response.

The switch between fight and flight is probably made by the amygdala,

mainly because it is designed to react to immediate threat without

(on occasion ) the intervention of the conscious thought processes.

Reflex action protects your eyes, in that they blink when anything

comes too close for the safety of your eyes. The brain also triggers

the flight mode in a fast response that you cannot ignore.

With lingering anxiety ~ half way between fight and flight ~ your

adrenalin level stays too high and your cortisol begins to flag; by

that time nor-adrenalin is also relativley high and awaiting orders.

The repeated News broadcasts that trigger the 'attention' (as in the

War on the Boarder ~ aspect of '1984') serve to keep us in a constant

state of anxiety. Switch off the television news ~ don't let 'them'

continue to jerk your reflexes.

The more flagrant scenes of violence are thought to be 'newsworthy',

but in truth they are intended to keep you coming back for 'more of

the same' ~ an addiction.

An extra 2.5mg of hydrocortisone in between the 'usual' doses will

tell you if you need any more to enable you stay calm ~ that will

give you a clue as to your general 'state of alarm' and your own

ability to control it ( with or without the extra hydrocortisone ).

If you continue your 50mcg/day (AM) thyroxine during this brief trial

of extra hydrocortisone, you will then be able to judge what you

need.

Whilst hydrocortisone is being destroyed in the four-five hour period

between doses check how long it is before feeling anxious again after

the last dose of hydrocortisone.

best wishes

Bob

> My mums just said what I am doing sounds dangerous! Thanks mum! She

said I thought this man (Dr P) was meant to make you better not

worse.

[Guest guest]

It is not dangerous for your heart to beat harder/faster for a short

time unless a person has heart disease.

The way out of the doubt has been explained to you . Why not

grasp it?

There are others on the list I am sure you use this method so you can

find help and support with it until you have it down to a fine art.

Way to go!

Mo

>

> My mums just said what I am doing sounds dangerous! Thanks mum! She

said I thought this man (Dr P) was meant to make you better not

worse. I told her about my beating heart in the night and she said

thats not right. anxiety high again today, I am full of doubt and

have no confidence in what I am doing anymore

>

>

>

> --- On Thu, 18/9/08, Mo Osborne <moosborne@...>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> It is not a question of ganging up Bob, just that somethings need

to

> be said and are perhaps a little overdue?

>

> Mo

>

> > I'll have to give'em a good 'threshing' in a minute if you feel

> they're

> > ganging up on you :-)

> >

> > Bob

> > wot objects ter ladies ganging up on .

> >

> >

> >

> > > Well my temps arent yet stable and I was worried about being

off

> the

> > thyroid for too long as it was, please dont gang up on me, this

is

> hard

> >

>