Re: New results - thoughts please

[Guest guest]

How are you feeling and what medications are you taking?

Mo

>

> Hello everyone

>

> I would welcome any thoughts on these new results.

>

> Total thyroxine 121 (58 -154)

>

> TSH 1.70 (0.4 - 4.0)

>

> Free T4 23.9 (10 - 22)

>

> Free T3 4.90 (2.8 - 6.5)

>

> Free T4/Free T3 ratio 4.88 (3.0 - 5.0)

>

> Thanks

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> How are you feeling and what medications are you taking?

Hi Mo

I'm not taking any medications, apart from estrogel and Vitamin

supplements.

As always, my major problem is my 24/7 fuzzy head, brain fog and

vertigo/dizziness. There are lots of other little annoyances as well

but as they've got incorporated into my normal now I don't really

count them.

My constant " headache " and dizziness make me feel quite incapacitated

but generally speaking I don't feel too bad, if that makes sense!

[Guest guest]

Sorry to put in here but I can relate the that 'heady' feeling you are talking about , I must have had it in varying degrees for nearly 3 yrs, it used to be a bit like being detatched or dispersonalization, its not as bad as that now but its still weird. When I am in a shop I find it hard to look at things and take it all in, its like my eyes cant look properly, very hard to explain but I sometimes think it cant be all thyroid related!!-

>> How are you feeling and what medications are you taking?Hi MoI'm not taking any medications, apart from estrogel and Vitamin supplements. As always, my major problem is my 24/7 fuzzy head, brain fog and vertigo/dizziness.

[Guest guest]

Have you had your adrenals tested ?

Mo

>

>

> >

> > How are you feeling and what medications are you taking?

>

> Hi Mo

>

> I'm not taking any medications, apart from estrogel and Vitamin

> supplements.

>

> As always, my major problem is my 24/7 fuzzy head, brain fog and

> vertigo/dizziness. There are lots of other little annoyances as

well

> but as they've got incorporated into my normal now I don't really

> count them.

>

> My constant " headache " and dizziness make me feel quite

incapacitated

> but generally speaking I don't feel too bad, if that makes sense!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Methinks you are not converting the T4 to T3 very well.

Don't think the TSH or total thyroxine is very relevant.

A RT3 test might be useful?

Mo

>

> Total thyroxine 121 (58 -154)

>

> TSH 1.70 (0.4 - 4.0)

>

> Free T4 23.9 (10 - 22)

>

> Free T3 4.90 (2.8 - 6.5)

>

> Free T4/Free T3 ratio 4.88 (3.0 - 5.0)

>

> Thanks

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Have you had antibody testing done , are these your first

thyroid results ever?

Mo

>

> Hello everyone

>

> I would welcome any thoughts on these new results.

>

> Total thyroxine 121 (58 -154)

>

> TSH 1.70 (0.4 - 4.0)

>

> Free T4 23.9 (10 - 22)

>

> Free T3 4.90 (2.8 - 6.5)

>

> Free T4/Free T3 ratio 4.88 (3.0 - 5.0)

>

> Thanks

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

About the vertigo, dizziness, and fuzzy head, when I look back two or

three years those were the only, but chronic symptoms I suffered.

Even ended up having an mri scan to investigate. Now, I believe that

was the beginnings of my thyroid difficulties. I'm not yet diagnosed,

but very low ft4. At that time it was higher.

Your ft4 is very high isn't it, I'm no expert, but is it just out of

range? Didn't the Dr comment on that, you would think so, given all

the fuss around reference ranges. I wonder what the knowedgeable

folks will make of that, and your low ft3.

Hope things get sorted for you very soon, keep smiling.

Love,

xx

>

> I'm not taking any medications, apart from estrogel and Vitamin

> supplements.

>

> As always, my major problem is my 24/7 fuzzy head, brain fog and

> vertigo/dizziness.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Sorry to put in here but I can relate the that 'heady' feeling you

>are talking about , I must have had it in varying degrees

>for nearly 3 yrs, it used to be a bit like being detatched or

>dispersonalization, its not as bad as that now but its still weird.

>When I am in a shop I find it hard to look at things and take it

>all in, its like my eyes cant look properly, very hard to explain

>but I sometimes think it cant be all thyroid related!!

Hi

Yes, I know exactly what you mean about being in shops and not being

able to look at things properly. It all gets too much visually. It's

horrible. Also about the detached feeling. You're right it's very

difficult to explain to someone who has not experienced it.

I always thought it was a migraine thing as I suffer from vestibular

migraines but now I wonder if it doesn't have an adrenal component.

Or perhaps it is to do with thyroid or most likely a combination of

both. Whatever it is it's very disconcerting and is always worse

with me when I'm tired or have digressed from my clean diet.

x

[Guest guest]

>

> Methinks you are not converting the T4 to T3 very well.

> Don't think the TSH or total thyroxine is very relevant.

> A RT3 test might be useful?

I had an RT3 test back in May. It was in the normal referance range. I

did mention it to Dr P and he said it was ok. I don't know what it is

now of course.

I wondered about the T4 to T3 conversion. I'll give that some thought.

Thanks

[Guest guest]

>

> Have you had antibody testing done , are these your first

> thyroid results ever?

These are my second lot of results. Antibodies were negative on both

tests, both for thyroglobulin and peroxidase.

In February 2007 I had a 24 hour urine test which showed below range

Free T3 and Free T4. In May of this year another urine test showed a

doubled T4 within range and a slightly better but still under range

T3.

And my TTS in May of this year showed this: (I've put the new

results in brackets alongside for a comparison)

Total thyroxine 102 (121) range 58-154

TSH 2.05 (1.70) range 0.4-4.0

Free T4 18.4 (23.9) range 10-22

Free T3 4.39 (4.90) range 2.8-6.5

Free T4/FreeT3 ratio 4.19 (4.88) range 3.0-5.0

So things have changed but I'm not sure if that's for the better or

not. I haven't grasped the thyroid stuff well enough to judge just

yet. I would have liked to have done the urine test again but

couldn't afford it right now.

I did notice on the test result paper just now that it says

exogenous estrogen can higher your T4 and I take estrogel as you

know. But when I googled it I found that that seems to mean the

total T4 not the free, and it's my free T4 which is over the normal

range.

So not qute sure what to think.

[Guest guest]

>

> Have you had your adrenals tested ?

Yes, three times. The first time nearly two years ago I had high

levels of cortisol, over range. The second, the levels had dropped

drastically to almost half what they were and today I've just had

the last test back from a week or so ago and the levels have dropped

even more. I started with a daily cortisol burden of 46, then 21,

now it's only 16.

So I've obviously got an adrenal problem that's getting worse.

Trouble is, everything I've tried to support them has not helped,

quite the opposite, they made me feel considerably worse and so now

I'm taking nothing apart from my supplements.

[Guest guest]

Morning

Odd that there should be such a change in FT4 between the two urine

tests especially, as you say, the Oestrogel will be unlikely to have

effected it unless, of course and this seems most likely,

there is an inability to convert properly which is causing the T4 to

pool in your blood. As the FT4 increased so did the FT3, marginally, so

conversion is happening, just not effciently it seems.

Have you had your adrenals tested ? I ask because high cortisol

can block conversion of FT4 into FT3 and low cortisol can stop the

thyroid getting into the cells.

Mo

> In February 2007 I had a 24 hour urine test which showed below range

> Free T3 and Free T4. In May of this year another urine test showed a

> doubled T4 within range and a slightly better but still under range

[Guest guest]

Sorry , I gave just seen this reply to my question about your

cortisol levels -

I don't know anything about cortisol burdens, is this a blood test?

Have you had an ASI? You would need to know your levels at different

times of the day.

As you say, it sounds like progressive adrenal stress, going from high

to low cortisol.

It can be high AND low at different times of the day of course - your

cortisol.

And I suppose, not sure about this, that this could mean that at 'high

times' conversion of thyroid is being blocked and at 'low' times there

would be insufficient cortisol to 'escort' whatever thyroid you are

able to convert into the cells to have any effect on your symptoms.

Do you have normal energy levels ?

Mo

>

> Yes, three times. The first time nearly two years ago I had high

> levels of cortisol, over range. The second, the levels had dropped

> drastically to almost half what they were and today I've just had

> the last test back from a week or so ago and the levels have dropped

> even more. I started with a daily cortisol burden of 46, then 21,

> now it's only 16.

>

> So I've obviously got an adrenal problem that's getting worse.

> Trouble is, everything I've tried to support them has not helped,

> quite the opposite, they made me feel considerably worse and so now

> I'm taking nothing apart from my supplements.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>I don't know anything about cortisol burdens, is this a blood

>test? Have you had an ASI? You would need to know your levels at

>different times of the day.

>Do you have normal energy levels ?

Morning Mo

Cortisol burden is your four levels of cortisol added together as on

your ASI test. Yes, all three of my tests were ASI's. Each time the

rhythms of my levels were ok ie highest in the morning and lowest at

midnight.

Over the last year as my cortisol levels have been dropping my

thyroid results seem to have got slightly better. At least I think

they have, although I'm a bit unsure what the high Free T4 means.

Does it mean I've gone hyper? Apparently supplemental estrogen can

cause some women to go hyper. I read all about that last night. I

was very surprised because I thought it was the opposite.

As far as energy levels go, I don't think they're too bad. Certainly

not nearly as bad as those of many on this forum and I'm very

grateful for that. I tend to have to stop doing things because of my

head/dizziness rather than because of tiredness.

[Guest guest]

> Odd that there should be such a change in FT4 between the two urine

> tests especially, as you say, the Oestrogel will be unlikely to have

> effected it unless, of course and this seems most likely,

> there is an inability to convert properly which is causing the T4 to

> pool in your blood. As the FT4 increased so did the FT3, marginally,

>so conversion is happening, just not effciently it seems.

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head. Dr P suspected this

right at the start a couple of years ago. But then he also suspected

that my main problem might be my adrenals and once they are sorted the

thyroid might just sort itself out. He wasn't as excited as I was

about the small improvement in the urine test saying it was miniscule!

I had the new tests done in readiness for seeing him again in

December. I'm not sure what he's going to make of it all, although

obviously some adrenal support seems necessary.

[Guest guest]

I am so glad I am not the only one because sometimes I think there must be something really wrong with me! This is THE major symptom for me and its horrid, I can be in room of people and feel like i am not there and somewhere else, it is slightly better these days and I find its best to try and ignore it but its hard when its in your head! I used to think it was my eyes, I must have had 4 eye tests in one year because I thought my glasses were wrong but everytime they came back as right. I suppose the more we dwell on it the worse it is, I relate it now a bit as an anxiety symptom and anxiety makes it worse, thus my decision to take AD's for this to see if it helps. I find its on my mind all the time, wondering how my head is going to be everyday and I fight hard to stop it letting me do things

> Sorry to put in here but I can relate the that 'heady' feeling you >are talking about , I must have had it in varying degrees >for nearly 3 yrs, it used to be a bit like being detatched or >dispersonalization , its not as bad as that now but its still weird. >When I am in a shop I find it hard to look at things and take it >all in, its like my eyes cant look properly, very hard to explain >but I sometimes think it cant be all thyroid related!!Hi Yes, I know exactly what you mean about being in shops and not being able to look at things properly. It all gets too much visually. It's horrible. Also about the detached feeling. You're right it's very difficult to explain to someone

who has not experienced it. x

[Guest guest]

So your cortisol was not high as such, just high in the range?

What were your last ASI results with ranges ?

The Free T4 being high means that conversion is not able to happen

properly I think. Especially with the FT3 not being all that high.

No it does not mean you've gone hyper. To go hyper your FT3 would be

high to very high and you would have symptons of going hyper like

fast pulse, thumping heart, high blood pressure, sweating, insomnia,

anxiety etc. You would know about it .

The T4 is a storage hormone. I think about mid-range is a good place

for it when there are no thyroid hormones being taken.

So your storage capacity (your FT4) is bigger than usual because your

body cannot get the goods out of the warehouse, so to speak, and on

to lorries (your FT3) that can deliver the goods into the shops (your

cells).

I thought excess oestrogen binds thyroid hormone and stops it getting

into the cells. What did you read about it causing hyper?

Mo

although I'm a bit unsure what the high Free T4 means.

> Does it mean I've gone hyper? Apparently supplemental estrogen can

> cause some women to go hyper. I read all about that last night. I

> was very surprised because I thought it was the opposite.

>

> As far as energy levels go, I don't think they're too bad.

Certainly

> not nearly as bad as those of many on this forum and I'm very

> grateful for that. I tend to have to stop doing things because of

my

> head/dizziness rather than because of tiredness.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I find its on my mind all the time, wondering how my head is going

>to be everyday and I fight hard to stop it letting me do things.

Me too . It's hard to forget or zone out a head problem because

it's so close to you if you get what I mean. I'm sure you do.

I wish I could figure out how to get rid of the problem once and for

all. I've had limited success which has made life a lot easier but I'd

love to be free of it altogether.

x

[Guest guest]

Yes me too, its all very strange and knocks your confidence a bit I think, I used to think something was loose in my head, I have tried to explain it to my doc but its so hard and he says its probably anxiety. Mine only started just before I was diagnosed and has never really gone away totally, if it did I would be totally well! What did you do to get the limited success to get rid of it?

> I find its on my mind all the time, wondering how my head is going >to be everyday and I fight hard to stop it letting me do things.Me too . It's hard to forget or zone out a head problem because it's so close to you if you get what I mean. I'm sure you do.I wish I could figure out how to get rid of the problem once and for all. I've had limited success which has made life a lot easier but I'd love to be free of it altogether. x

[Guest guest]

>

>

> So your cortisol was not high as such, just high in the range?

> What were your last ASI results with ranges ?

> No it does not mean you've gone hyper. To go hyper your FT3 would

>be high to very high and you would have symptons of going hyper

>like fast pulse, thumping heart, high blood pressure, sweating,

>insomnia, anxiety etc. You would know about it .

> I thought excess oestrogen binds thyroid hormone and stops it

>getting into the cells. What did you read about it causing hyper?

Hi Mo

On my first ASI my cortisol was over range on all but the midnight

sample and that was only just in.

My last ASI was as follows:

8am 6.0 (12 - 22)

12pm 4.2 (5.0 - 9.0)

4pm 4.8 (3.0 - 7.0)

12am 1.6 (1.0 - 3.0)

Total daily cortisol 16.6 (21 -41)

DHEA /Cortisol ratio 4.10 (0.6 - 3.0)

So free T3 has to be high to be hyper then, not T4? Like I went when

I tried cytomel, I felt so awful on that. I have to say I have felt

aware of my heart these last few weeks, the only other time I've

ever felt remotely like this was when I was on T3 and Nutri Thyroid.

Up til now I was just keeping an eye on it and thought it was maybe

due to the estrogel.

Great explanation of how the hormones work BTW! When would you go

toxic then? Wouldn't such a high Free T4 make me feel toxic? I know

I've felt toxic before, Dr P told me that, but I can't remember when

or why!

Yes, I was under the impression that taking estrogen meant a

decrease in usable thyroid and when I saw my results I thought it

was just me doing the opposite of what was expected as usual but

when I did a bit of googling I was surprised to find comments like

these, although I haven't had time to check it out throroughly so

I'm not necessarily saying it is so, but I found it very interesting

and will look into it further.

" When I first started studying the effects of the hormones, estrogen

and its antagonist, progesterone, on thyroid function it appeared

that estrogen caused the body to slow thyroid function like copper

does and progesterone caused the body to increase thyroid function,

like zinc.

However, this theory was challenged more than once by women who

reported that taking supplemental estrogen caused their

hyperthyroidism to worsen. I tried to ignore these observations

because they didn't fit into this theory. Now however, these

observations make sense.

If estrogen is an accelerator of mineral uptake into the body, it

can have opposite effects. Zinc accelerates thyroidal function and

copper slows it down. When copper gets deficient, the thyroid

produces excessive hormone and hyperthyroidism results. "

http://www.ithyroid.com/estrogen_and_thyroid.htm

http://forums.obgyn.net/womens-health/WHF.0101/2470.html

[Guest guest]

>I have tried to explain it to my doc but its so hard and he says its

>probably anxiety. ! What did you do to get the limited success to

>get rid of it?

I find it totally impossible to explain how my head feels to anyone

and I've really tried!

What did I do to improve things? Basically I changed my diet and

started taking magnesium, zinc and B vitamins. I went wheat and dairy

free and gave up eating any additives etc, sticking mainly to food

that didn't come out of a tin or a packet. It was really hard at first

but the pay off was well worth it.

x

[Guest guest]

Does sound like you have slipped into the next stage of andreal

fatigue and the cortisol has lowered.

Yes it would be the FT3 going very high that would cause hyper as the

T4 is mostly for storage purposes.

High T4 can bew toxic I think in that it can convert to RT3 (the body

in its wisdom tries to get rid of it I think when it cannot get it

where it needs to go, in your case because there was not enough

cortisol to escort it to where it was needed) but you say you are OK

in this department.

T3 and Nutri Thyroid seem an odd combination ??

I would have thought the ideal for you now would be h.c and T3.

So what's happening with your heart?

The except you sent is referring to HYPERthyroidism being made, I

wonder if that makes the difference or not?

Mo

>

> So free T3 has to be high to be hyper then, not T4? Like I went

when

> I tried cytomel, I felt so awful on that. I have to say I have felt

> aware of my heart these last few weeks, the only other time I've

> ever felt remotely like this was when I was on T3 and Nutri

Thyroid.

> Up til now I was just keeping an eye on it and thought it was maybe

> due to the estrogel.

>

> Great explanation of how the hormones work BTW! When would you go

> toxic then? Wouldn't such a high Free T4 make me feel toxic? I know

> I've felt toxic before, Dr P told me that, but I can't remember

when

> or why!

>

> Yes, I was under the impression that taking estrogen meant a

> decrease in usable thyroid and when I saw my results I thought it

> was just me doing the opposite of what was expected as usual but

> when I did a bit of googling I was surprised to find comments like

> these, although I haven't had time to check it out throroughly so

> I'm not necessarily saying it is so, but I found it very

interesting

> and will look into it further.

>

> " When I first started studying the effects of the hormones,

estrogen

> and its antagonist, progesterone, on thyroid function it appeared

> that estrogen caused the body to slow thyroid function like copper

> does and progesterone caused the body to increase thyroid function,

> like zinc.

>

> However, this theory was challenged more than once by women who

> reported that taking supplemental estrogen caused their

> hyperthyroidism to worsen. I tried to ignore these observations

> because they didn't fit into this theory. Now however, these

> observations make sense.

>

> If estrogen is an accelerator of mineral uptake into the body, it

> can have opposite effects. Zinc accelerates thyroidal function and

> copper slows it down. When copper gets deficient, the thyroid

> produces excessive hormone and hyperthyroidism results. "

> http://www.ithyroid.com/estrogen_and_thyroid.htm

>

> http://forums.obgyn.net/womens-health/WHF.0101/2470.html

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

:

Well, yes it could. I had all that too until I sorted out my adrenals

and T4 levels. I did these together over a few months with Dr S's

help, and now don't have any of the heady stuff. I can'r believe how

normal I feel. Here's hoping you soon feel that too - I know you have

been working on it for a while - you started treating your adrenals

about the same time as I did I think. I was lucky in just needing a

few NAE a day. I still take them and hardly dare think about stopping

them.

Best wishes,

Kat

> Sorry to put in here but I can relate the that 'heady' feeling you

are talking about , I must have had it in varying degrees for

nearly 3 yrs, it used to be a bit like being detatched or

dispersonalization,

[Edit Abbrev Mod]

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

T3 a bit low for an over range T4- conversion problem? Do you

feel OK?

Stenning

Subject: New results - thoughts please

Hello everyone

I would welcome any thoughts on these new results.

Total thyroxine 121 (58 -154)

TSH 1.70 (0.4 - 4.0)

Free T4 23.9 (10 - 22)

Free T3 4.90 (2.8 - 6.5)

Free T4/Free T3 ratio 4.88 (3.0 - 5.0)

Thanks

------------------------------------

TPA is not medically qualified. Consult with a qualified medical

practitioner before changing medication.

[Guest guest]

> T3 a bit low for an over range T4 - conversion problem? Do you

> feel OK?

Although I have lots of niggling symptoms, the main one bothering me

as always is my heavy, fuzzy, dizzy head. Plus the last few weeks

I've been aware of my heart beating and can feel it in my chest,

especially after exertion. But generally speaking, my appetite is

good, sleep better than it has been, and I'm not too bad -

relatively speaking.

But that head prevents me from getting out much and I can't work

outside the home because of it, or drive or use public transport, so

I am pretty restricted and that makes me very miserable sometimes.

Do you think the over range T4 could account for the increased heart

awareness? As I don't take any meds at present what can I do to

bring it down?

Thanks

x