Re: Iodine and Tamoxifen

September 16, 2008

I took tamoxifin for a short while - less than a month - when I had breast cancer three years ago - and could not take it and told my oncologist how I felt and he said 'don't take it' and I haven't taken it since . . . .and won't take it again

Toni

"If you would be loved, love and be lovable." lin

In a message dated 9/16/2008 9:43:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dorothyroeder@... writes:

Iodine protects the breasts from cancer. In his book, Dr. Brownsteinsays that iodine is necessary to convert estrogen from its carcoginicform into the form that protects against cancer.Dorothy> I have a question. I would like to know if anyone has taken both> Tamoxifen and iodine concurrently. What has been your outcome?> Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

September 16, 2008

Iodine protects the breasts from cancer. In his book, Dr. Brownstein

says that iodine is necessary to convert estrogen from its carcoginic

form into the form that protects against cancer.

Dorothy

> I have a question. I would like to know if anyone has taken both

> Tamoxifen and iodine concurrently. What has been your outcome?

>

September 17, 2008

I am trying to locate this article but it appears that Iodine and Tamoxifen do not mix. I will run this by Dr. Brownstein too.

Antithyroid action of tamoxifen in the rat: in vivo and in vitro studies.

Beyssen M, Lagorce J, Clédat D, Jambut A, Buxeraud J.Department of Organic and Therapeutic Chemistry, Laboratoire de Chimie des Substances Naturelles, Faculty of Pharmacy, Limoges, France.

The influence of administration of tamoxifen (TAM) on thyroid metabolism was investigated. The potential action of TAM on iodine in the thyroid gland was evaluated by determination of the equilibrium constant of the charge transfer complex formed with molecular iodine and by computational studies. Adverse effects of TAM on thyroid function parameters were also investigated in female Wistar rats. Rats were treated for seven weeks with 5 mg/kg/day of TAM. Irrespective of the iodine content of the diet, administration of TAM led to goitre and a significant increase in levels of T4 and TSH. Similar results, albeit more marked, were observed after administration of an inhibitor of thyroid peroxidase. We also showed that TAM forms charge transfer complex with iodine (Kc = 876 liters/mol). We concluded that under our experimental conditions, TAM exerts antithyroid activity from an action on thyroid peroxidase. Nevertheless, when the exogenous iodine contribution is restricted, TAM may sequester iodine in the form of charge transfer complexes, thereby enhancing hypothyroidism. Copyright 2000 S. Karger AG, Basel

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10895077

Can you also define what "started feeling bad" means? You could very well have been detoxing bromide. Many, many BC patients are highly toxic with bromide. You can talk to the people on the Breast Cancer Choices website - Lynne Farrow is a member here too along with (I think that's her name -sorry if I am wrong). They are both wonderful ladies and very knowledgeable in the iodine / BC arena. www.breastcancerchoices.org I felt bad on higher doses of iodine too. It was bromide - confirmed by a recent test that I am still pumping out large volumes after 2 1/2 years. I was a thyca patient which is also iodine related.

Iodine and Tamoxifen

>I have a question. I would like to know if anyone has taken both> Tamoxifen and iodine concurrently. What has been your outcome?> > I have a ER+ tumor in my left breast. I have taken Tamoxifen for two> months to shrink the tumor. Coincidentally, in the few months prior> to my BC diagnosis in June, I took iodine at increasing levels with> little trouble and a lot of good on the advice of my> acupuncurist/nutritionist. I even smeared it on my breast daily> beginning in March (three months before diagnosis). On iodine, I> brought my thyroid and adrenals up to normal. I had good energy. I> lifted out of depression. The nature of my breasts changed from dense> to comfortably normal. After starting the Tamoxifen in July, I found> it increasingly difficult to take the iodine even at lower levels. It> made me feel bad. I finally had to quit the iodine completely in> August. I think it got increasingly worse because of the level of> Tamoxifen in my body building up. > > At the same time, the Tamoxifen has caused me other problems including> Tamoxifen induced asthma, depression (anew!), tiredness, and> gastrointestinal pain and problems. As a result, I reduced the dose> from 20 mg. a day to 5 mg. a day.> > Has anyone used iodine to reduce the size of a BC tumor? If so, to> what result?> > My surgeon's office keeps calling and pushing back my next appointment> date. Now I am three weeks out. > > Any thoughts to help me make up my mind on what to do?> > > > > ------------------------------------> > > > >

September 17, 2008

Thank you for posting this study.

As for feeling bad... well, I did have some bromide detox issues

during my iodine taking months. I ended up doing a pulse sort of

thing until it got better. I used the sea salt remedy vitamin C and

other supplements to help. My main, number one bromide detox symptom

was eyelid twitching. Also, my eyes were generally " bothered " . Other

symptoms included feeling toxic and nervous anxiety. Backing off on

the iodine and using sea salt always cleared it up.

The reaction with the tamoxifen and iodine was different. By " feel

bad " I meant that I simply felt ill. I was very tired. Doing thing s

was a big effort. Sea salt detox had no effect. Now that I think of

it, what I felt was like hypothyroid symptoms. Hmmm. This may be the

answer to my question.

I will be very interested to learn what Dr. Brownstein has to say.

I made the decision last night to stop the tamoxifen and get back on

the iodine. I am going to do a spot and load test starting tomorrow

morning. Then I will have a consultation with Dr. Flechas. Also, I

have already signed on for the BreastCancerChoices study.

>

> I am trying to locate this article but it appears that Iodine and

Tamoxifen do not mix. I will run this by Dr. Brownstein too.

>

> Antithyroid action of tamoxifen in the rat: in vivo and in vitro

studies.

> Beyssen M, Lagorce J, Clédat D, Jambut A, Buxeraud J.

> Department of Organic and Therapeutic Chemistry, Laboratoire de

Chimie des Substances Naturelles, Faculty of Pharmacy, Limoges, France.

>

> The influence of administration of tamoxifen (TAM) on thyroid

metabolism was investigated. The potential action of TAM on iodine in

the thyroid gland was evaluated by determination of the equilibrium

constant of the charge transfer complex formed with molecular iodine

and by computational studies. Adverse effects of TAM on thyroid

function parameters were also investigated in female Wistar rats. Rats

were treated for seven weeks with 5 mg/kg/day of TAM. Irrespective of

the iodine content of the diet, administration of TAM led to goitre

and a significant increase in levels of T4 and TSH. Similar results,

albeit more marked, were observed after administration of an inhibitor

of thyroid peroxidase. We also showed that TAM forms charge transfer

complex with iodine (Kc = 876 liters/mol). We concluded that under our

experimental conditions, TAM exerts antithyroid activity from an

action on thyroid peroxidase. Nevertheless, when the exogenous iodine

contribution is restricted, TAM may sequester iodine in the form of

charge transfer complexes, thereby enhancing hypothyroidism. Copyright

2000 S. Karger AG, Basel

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10895077

>

> Can you also define what " started feeling bad " means? You could

very well have been detoxing bromide. Many, many BC patients are

highly toxic with bromide. You can talk to the people on the Breast

Cancer Choices website - Lynne Farrow is a member here too along with

(I think that's her name -sorry if I am wrong). They are both

wonderful ladies and very knowledgeable in the iodine / BC arena.

www.breastcancerchoices.org I felt bad on higher doses of iodine

too. It was bromide - confirmed by a recent test that I am still

pumping out large volumes after 2 1/2 years. I was a thyca patient

which is also iodine related.

>

> Iodine and Tamoxifen

>

> >I have a question. I would like to know if anyone has taken both

> > Tamoxifen and iodine concurrently. What has been your outcome?

> >

> > I have a ER+ tumor in my left breast. I have taken Tamoxifen for two

> > months to shrink the tumor. Coincidentally, in the few months prior

> > to my BC diagnosis in June, I took iodine at increasing levels with

> > little trouble and a lot of good on the advice of my

> > acupuncurist/nutritionist. I even smeared it on my breast daily

> > beginning in March (three months before diagnosis). On iodine, I

> > brought my thyroid and adrenals up to normal. I had good energy. I

> > lifted out of depression. The nature of my breasts changed from dense

> > to comfortably normal. After starting the Tamoxifen in July, I found

> > it increasingly difficult to take the iodine even at lower levels. It

> > made me feel bad. I finally had to quit the iodine completely in

> > August. I think it got increasingly worse because of the level of

> > Tamoxifen in my body building up.

> >

> > At the same time, the Tamoxifen has caused me other problems including

> > Tamoxifen induced asthma, depression (anew!), tiredness, and

> > gastrointestinal pain and problems. As a result, I reduced the dose

> > from 20 mg. a day to 5 mg. a day.

> >

> > Has anyone used iodine to reduce the size of a BC tumor? If so, to

> > what result?

> >

> > My surgeon's office keeps calling and pushing back my next appointment

> > date. Now I am three weeks out.

> >

> > Any thoughts to help me make up my mind on what to do?

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

September 17, 2008

I am not sure why the T4 would increase but the TSH would increase due to the lack of iodine so it is calling for more thyroid hormone. It states that it inhibits the TPO process which is where the Iodine is reduced to the Iodide to be utilized by the thyroid gland in the form of T4 & T3. So that would tell me that there would be no T4 production or very low production. So I am not sure why they increased.

I sent this info to Dr. Brownstein this morning and he responded at lunch that he requested it from the medical library. Once we can get our hands on a full copy it may be more telling than the abstract indicates.

Re: Iodine and Tamoxifen

Why would both T4 and TSH increase? This seems paradoxical to me.

Lynn

I am trying to locate this article but it appears that Iodine and Tamoxifen do not mix. I will run this by Dr. Brownstein too.

Antithyroid action of tamoxifen in the rat: in vivo and in vitro studies.

Beyssen M, Lagorce J, Clédat D, Jambut A, Buxeraud J.Department of Organic and Therapeutic Chemistry, Laboratoire de Chimie des Substances Naturelles, Faculty of Pharmacy, Limoges, France.

The influence of administration of tamoxifen (TAM) on thyroid metabolism was investigated. The potential action of TAM on iodine in the thyroid gland was evaluated by determination of the equilibrium constant of the charge transfer complex formed with molecular iodine and by computational studies. Adverse effects of TAM on thyroid function parameters were also investigated in female Wistar rats. Rats were treated for seven weeks with 5 mg/kg/day of TAM. Irrespective of the iodine content of the diet, administration of TAM led to goitre and a significant increase in levels of T4 and TSH. Similar results, albeit more marked, were observed after administration of an inhibitor of thyroid peroxidase. We also showed that TAM forms charge transfer complex with iodine (Kc = 876 liters/mol). We concluded that under our experimental conditions, TAM exerts antithyroid activity from an action on thyroid peroxidase. Nevertheless, when the exogenous iodine contribution is restricted, TAM may sequester iodine in the form of charge transfer complexes, thereby enhancing hypothyroidism. Copyright 2000 S. Karger AG, Basel

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10895077

September 17, 2008

Why would both T4 and TSH increase? This seems paradoxical to me.

Lynn

I am trying to locate this article but it appears that Iodine and Tamoxifen do not mix. I will run this by Dr. Brownstein too.

Antithyroid action of tamoxifen in the rat: in vivo and in vitro studies.

Beyssen M, Lagorce J, Clédat D, Jambut A, Buxeraud J.Department of Organic and Therapeutic Chemistry, Laboratoire de Chimie des Substances Naturelles, Faculty of Pharmacy, Limoges, France.

The influence of administration of tamoxifen (TAM) on thyroid metabolism was investigated. The potential action of TAM on iodine in the thyroid gland was evaluated by determination of the equilibrium constant of the charge transfer complex formed with molecular iodine and by computational studies. Adverse effects of TAM on thyroid function parameters were also investigated in female Wistar rats. Rats were treated for seven weeks with 5 mg/kg/day of TAM. Irrespective of the iodine content of the diet, administration of TAM led to goitre and a significant increase in levels of T4 and TSH. Similar results, albeit more marked, were observed after administration of an inhibitor of thyroid peroxidase. We also showed that TAM forms charge transfer complex with iodine (Kc = 876 liters/mol). We concluded that under our experimental conditions, TAM exerts antithyroid activity from an action on thyroid peroxidase. Nevertheless, when the exogenous iodine contribution is restricted, TAM may sequester iodine in the form of charge transfer complexes, thereby enhancing hypothyroidism. Copyright 2000 S. Karger AG, Basel

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10895077

September 17, 2008

Just adding my own thinkings...

If TSH increases it pushes the thyroid to increase T4 and T3, but to get

good levels of T3 you also need to be able to do the conversion from T4

to T3, so if this conversion is blocked there will be a build up of T4

and T3 will deplete resulting in hypothyroid symptoms.

Gail

>

> I am not sure why the T4 would increase but the TSH would increase due

to the lack of iodine so it is calling for more thyroid hormone. It

states that it inhibits the TPO process which is where the Iodine is

reduced to the Iodide to be utilized by the thyroid gland in the form of

T4 & T3. So that would tell me that there would be no T4 production or

very low production. So I am not sure why they increased.

>

> I sent this info to Dr. Brownstein this morning and he responded at

lunch that he requested it from the medical library. Once we can get our

hands on a full copy it may be more telling than the abstract indicates.

>

> Re: Iodine and Tamoxifen

>

> Why would both T4 and TSH increase? This seems paradoxical to me.

>

> Lynn

>

> I am trying to locate this article but it appears that Iodine and

Tamoxifen do not mix. I will run this by Dr. Brownstein too.

>

> Antithyroid action of tamoxifen in the rat: in vivo and in vitro

studies.

> Beyssen M, Lagorce J, Clédat D, Jambut A, Buxeraud J.

> Department of Organic and Therapeutic Chemistry, Laboratoire de Chimie

des Substances Naturelles, Faculty of Pharmacy, Limoges, France.

>

> The influence of administration of tamoxifen (TAM) on thyroid

metabolism was investigated. The potential action of TAM on iodine in

the thyroid gland was evaluated by determination of the equilibrium

constant of the charge transfer complex formed with molecular iodine and

by computational studies. Adverse effects of TAM on thyroid function

parameters were also investigated in female Wistar rats. Rats were

treated for seven weeks with 5 mg/kg/day of TAM. Irrespective of the

iodine content of the diet, administration of TAM led to goitre and a

significant increase in levels of T4 and TSH. Similar results, albeit

more marked, were observed after administration of an inhibitor of

thyroid peroxidase. We also showed that TAM forms charge transfer

complex with iodine (Kc = 876 liters/mol). We concluded that under our

experimental conditions, TAM exerts antithyroid activity from an action

on thyroid peroxidase. Nevertheless, when the exogenous iodine

contribution is restricted, TAM may sequester iodine in the form of

charge transfer complexes, thereby enhancing hypothyroidism. Copyright

2000 S. Karger AG, Basel

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10895077

>

September 17, 2008

But 20% of T3 is created directly in the thyroid. If the iodine is blocked

the T4 won't be created either. It doesn't make sense. I hope we can get

the full article.

Steph