Guest guest Posted September 13, 2002 Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 After onset of CFs/ME in 1983, along with all the other commonly held symptoms, I too have degrees of intolerance to alcohol. Alcohol in certain forms are worse that others .. Red wine or some yellowy coloured white wines are particularly bad, and knock me out for the count. I do know what is in those wines in greater quantities. One doctor thought it might be certain sulphurous chemicals? Anyone any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 If the intolerance is primarily to wines, it might be the sulfites in the wine. Apparently, there is an enzyme called sulfite oxidase that is necessary to breakdown the sulfites in the wine, and it may be deficient in some PWC's. Surprisingly some white wines have as many sulfites as red wines, though it is generally held that white wines has fewer sulfites. I definitely have a sulfite oxidase deficiency, as evidenced through testing, but I also have severe alcohol intolerance to even alcohol in homeopathic remedies, so that, I suspect is due to more than just a sulfite oxidase deficiency. Donna in NC Re: alcohol intolerance > After onset of CFs/ME in 1983, along with all the other commonly held symptoms, I too have degrees of intolerance to alcohol. > > Alcohol in certain forms are worse that others .. Red wine or some yellowy coloured white wines are particularly bad, and knock me out for the count. I do know what is in those wines in greater quantities. One doctor thought it might be certain sulphurous chemicals? Anyone any ideas? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Jan, When I made this comment, I was talking specifically about ethanol. In red wine, there are some other substances that may cause problems for some PWCs as well. One is sulfite, which is used as a preservative in most wines. Its mentioned on the label, at least in the U.S. Some PWCs are unable to process it. There's also tyramine, which is implicated in causing headaches in some people. I suspect that while you may well be intolerant of ethanol, ethanol is probably not what gives you problems for such a long time as two and a half months. Do you know whether you are sulfite-sensitive? If so, sometimes taking molybdenum will help this, since the enzyme for processing sulfite is molybdenum-dependent. The question of why some PWCs can tolerate alcohol is a very intriguing one. There are some on this list who have reported that they can. I have studied a few cases in detail in which this is true. I think that some of them developed great liver capacity for processing alcohol before they became ill with CFS, and perhaps their livers have enough NAD+ to be able to continue to carry on gluconeogenesis even while they use some of their NAD+ to support the enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase. For example, one of these cases was a diplomat who had been accustomed to attending frequent diplomatic events at which drinking was the norm, before he became ill. There could also be genetic differences in this regard. As you may know, many Asian people cannot tolerate alcohol because they have a genetic lack of the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase. Perhaps there are other people who have genetically received larger amounts of the enzymes needed. And of course, there is always the possibility of different subsets of CFS that may not involve such strong dependence on the Cori cycle. I can say that when I find a PWC who is alcohol-intolerant, I'm pretty sure that they have partial blockades in the Krebs cycles or respiratory chains of their red, " slow-twitch " skeletal muscle cells, and I think this is true of the main subset, at least. Rich > > Hi Rich, > > >I think lactic acidosis could kill a person with CFS, for example if > >they overindulged in alcohol, which temporarily shuts down the > >liver's ability to process lactic acid back to glucose via > >gluconeogenesis and the Cori cycle. It would not be a very pleasant > >way to go, though. > > Is this why so many of us are intolerant of alcohol? I avoid all acohol due to it's devastating effects on my health. If I drink one glass of red wine, I suffer terribly. The following day, I just feel rather hung over and the CFS symptoms are worse, but the day after that I feel absolutely deathly and the tortuous after effects last for weeks. I don't recover back to my usual level of CFS symptoms for about 2.5 months. I know of many PWC's are intolerant of alcohol, but some seem to be able to drink it with no problems. Why? > > Thanks, > > Jan. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 , Please see my response to Jan. Rich > After onset of CFs/ME in 1983, along with all the other commonly held > symptoms, I too have degrees of intolerance to alcohol. > > Alcohol in certain forms are worse that others .. Red wine or some yellowy > coloured white wines are particularly bad, and knock me out for the count. I > do know what is in those wines in greater quantities. One doctor thought it > might be certain sulphurous chemicals? Anyone any ideas? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Hi All, I had hepatitis when I was very young. I think that came from eating raw seafood, which I love. For years I couldn't drink at all. I remember at a party I had some hard liquor and felt like I was going to faint or die. Years after I was able to have some alcohol. One beer would knock me out. Currently, with CFS, one sip calmed me down for an hour when I felt very anxious. I don't drink. I might taste some drink once in a while, but that is just maybe a teaspoonful at most. I feel that the CFS has made it much harder for me to metabolize alcohol and many other substances. Sometimes I wish that I didn't have problems with alcohol, because I feel that it might me nice to binge away my troubles. Really, i'd rather be healthy with no troubles to have to binge away. The greatest dream of my life is to feel " normal " with a good functioning brain, with no medications or illness fogging it up. Mike P.S. I have a friend that is healthy who told me that taking vitamin B's helped him with a hangover. I believe that alcohol depletes vitamin B's and maybe others. I once heard that liquor companys were considering putting B vitamins in their products to prevent brain / nerve damage to people that drink a lot. Prime example is the brain damage that alcoholics get, especially the ones that don't eat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Donna, Yep. Sounds like you are intolerant to both ethanol and sulfite. Do you have problems with foods that contain other forms of sulfur, such as the brassica family (broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, Brussels sprouts) or garlic or onions or eggs or whey protein? Rich Rich. > If the intolerance is primarily to wines, it might be the sulfites in the > wine. Apparently, there is an enzyme called sulfite oxidase that is > necessary to breakdown the sulfites in the wine, and it may be deficient in > some PWC's. Surprisingly some white wines have as many sulfites as red > wines, though it is generally held that white wines has fewer sulfites. I > definitely have a sulfite oxidase deficiency, as evidenced through testing, > but I also have severe alcohol intolerance to even alcohol in homeopathic > remedies, so that, I suspect is due to more than just a sulfite oxidase > deficiency. > Donna in NC > > Re: alcohol intolerance > > > > After onset of CFs/ME in 1983, along with all the other commonly held > symptoms, I too have degrees of intolerance to alcohol. > > > > Alcohol in certain forms are worse that others .. Red wine or some yellowy > coloured white wines are particularly bad, and knock me out for the count. I > do know what is in those wines in greater quantities. One doctor thought it > might be certain sulphurous chemicals? Anyone any ideas? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Mike, You're right about the B vitamins. In particular niacin is helpful, because niacin is the " N " in NAD+. If you help your liver to make more NAD+, it will have more capacity to process ethanol while carrying on its other business, which also requires NAD+. I think it's also helpful to include vitamin C and NAC in anti- hangover remedies, to take care of free radicals and to help dump some of the other toxins that come from processing various alcoholic beverages. Of course, I don't advocate drinking alcoholic beverages to the point of getting a hangover, and it's especially not a good idea for PWCs, as I mentioned before. I think it could be lethal for PWCs. I haven't heard of an alcohol-intolerant PWC drinking very much alcohol. Most say that feel so bad after a sip that they stop. I think this is due to combined hypoglycemia and lactic acidosis. Some seem to get the hypoglycemia without the lactic acidosis. The latter produces a " sick " feeling, as in nausea. The former tends to shut down the brain or make the person very irritable, since glucose is the main fuel for the brain. I don't understand why some don't get the lactic acidosis yet. It may just be a matter of how much lactic acid is being produced when they drink the alcohol. I think the worst combination would be for a PWC to exercise and then drink an alcoholic beverage, especially one without much sugar in it. That would probably be a disaster. Rich > Hi All, > I had hepatitis when I was very young. I think that came > from eating > raw seafood, which I love. For years I couldn't drink at all. I remember > > at a party I had some hard liquor and felt like I was going to faint or > die. Years > after I was able to have some alcohol. One beer would knock me out. > Currently, > with CFS, one sip calmed me down for an hour when I felt very anxious. I > > don't drink. I might taste some drink once in a while, but that is just > maybe > a teaspoonful at most. I feel that the CFS has made it much harder for > me > to metabolize alcohol and many other substances. Sometimes I wish that > I didn't have problems with alcohol, because I feel that it might me > nice > to binge away my troubles. Really, i'd rather be healthy with no > troubles > to have to binge away. The greatest dream of my life is to feel " normal " > > with a good functioning brain, with no medications or illness fogging it > up. > > > Mike > > P.S. I have a friend that is healthy who told me that taking vitamin > B's helped > him with a hangover. I believe that alcohol depletes vitamin B's and > maybe others. > I once heard that liquor companys were considering putting B vitamins in > their > products to prevent brain / nerve damage to people that drink a lot. > Prime example > is the brain damage that alcoholics get, especially the ones that don't > eat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 What about molds as wine is fermented? Thanks. Nil Re: alcohol intolerance | Jan, | | When I made this comment, I was talking specifically about ethanol. | In red wine, there are some other substances that may cause problems | for some PWCs as well. One is sulfite, which is used as a | preservative in most wines. Its mentioned on the label, at least in | the U.S. Some PWCs are unable to process it. There's also tyramine, | which is implicated in causing headaches in some people. I suspect | that while you may well be intolerant of ethanol, ethanol is probably | not what gives you problems for such a long time as two and a half | months. Do you know whether you are sulfite-sensitive? If so, | sometimes taking molybdenum will help this, since the enzyme for | processing sulfite is molybdenum-dependent. | | The question of why some PWCs can tolerate alcohol is a very | intriguing one. There are some on this list who have reported that | they can. I have studied a few cases in detail in which this is | true. I think that some of them developed great liver capacity for | processing alcohol before they became ill with CFS, and perhaps their | livers have enough NAD+ to be able to continue to carry on | gluconeogenesis even while they use some of their NAD+ to support the | enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase. For | example, one of these cases was a diplomat who had been accustomed to | attending frequent diplomatic events at which drinking was the norm, | before he became ill. | | There could also be genetic differences in this regard. As you may | know, many Asian people cannot tolerate alcohol because they have a | genetic lack of the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase. Perhaps there are | other people who have genetically received larger amounts of the | enzymes needed. | | And of course, there is always the possibility of different subsets | of CFS that may not involve such strong dependence on the Cori | cycle. I can say that when I find a PWC who is alcohol-intolerant, | I'm pretty sure that they have partial blockades in the Krebs cycles | or respiratory chains of their red, " slow-twitch " skeletal muscle | cells, and I think this is true of the main subset, at least. | | Rich | | | > | > Hi Rich, | > | > >I think lactic acidosis could kill a person with CFS, for example | if | > >they overindulged in alcohol, which temporarily shuts down the | > >liver's ability to process lactic acid back to glucose via | > >gluconeogenesis and the Cori cycle. It would not be a very | pleasant | > >way to go, though. | > | > Is this why so many of us are intolerant of alcohol? I avoid all | acohol due to it's devastating effects on my health. If I drink one | glass of red wine, I suffer terribly. The following day, I just feel | rather hung over and the CFS symptoms are worse, but the day after | that I feel absolutely deathly and the tortuous after effects last | for weeks. I don't recover back to my usual level of CFS symptoms | for about 2.5 months. I know of many PWC's are intolerant of alcohol, | but some seem to be able to drink it with no problems. Why? | > | > Thanks, | > | > Jan. | > | > | > | > | > --------------------------------- | > Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. | > | > | > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Nil, Yes, you're right. That's another possibility. Also yeasts, for those who have an allergy to yeasts. Rich > | > > | > Hi Rich, > | > > | > >I think lactic acidosis could kill a person with CFS, for example > | if > | > >they overindulged in alcohol, which temporarily shuts down the > | > >liver's ability to process lactic acid back to glucose via > | > >gluconeogenesis and the Cori cycle. It would not be a very > | pleasant > | > >way to go, though. > | > > | > Is this why so many of us are intolerant of alcohol? I avoid all > | acohol due to it's devastating effects on my health. If I drink one > | glass of red wine, I suffer terribly. The following day, I just feel > | rather hung over and the CFS symptoms are worse, but the day after > | that I feel absolutely deathly and the tortuous after effects last > | for weeks. I don't recover back to my usual level of CFS symptoms > | for about 2.5 months. I know of many PWC's are intolerant of alcohol, > | but some seem to be able to drink it with no problems. Why? > | > > | > Thanks, > | > > | > Jan. > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > --------------------------------- > | > Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. > | > > | > > | > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Rich, I do indeed have problems with all forms of sulfur, although that did not use to be the case. I think the sulfite problem has always been around to a mild degree, but when I tried to chelate my mercury a few years ago, first with a DMPS injection for a challenge test, which produced a severe asthma attack 30 hours later, then several months later I took DMSA, at the " protocol of the day " , 500 mg once a week. By the 4th dose, I ended up severely ill, not even remembering the months that followed, and since then my CFIDS became quite severe, and gradually my sulfur intolerances have grown. Used to take whey protein, eat all forms of brassica family in moderation, eat eggs, take large amounts of ALA, MSM....no longer. It seems to get worse instead of better. Has severely limited my diet, as I have severe food allergies also, but interestingly, brassica family does not test as an allergy. That I don't understand. Thanks for any comments or thoughts you might have. Donna in NC Re: alcohol intolerance > Donna, > > Yep. Sounds like you are intolerant to both ethanol and sulfite. Do you have problems with foods that contain other forms of sulfur, such as the brassica family (broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, Brussels sprouts) or garlic or onions or eggs or whey protein? > > Rich > I definitely have a sulfite oxidase deficiency, as evidenced through testing, but I also have severe alcohol intolerance to even alcohol in homeopathic remedies, so that, I suspect is due to more than just a sulfite oxidase deficiency. > > Donna in NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 hi all - > > > Alcohol in certain forms are worse that others .. Red wine or > some yellowy > > coloured white wines are particularly bad, and knock me out for the > count. I > > do know what is in those wines in greater quantities. One doctor > thought it > > might be certain sulphurous chemicals? Anyone any ideas? I had an interesting experience with this a few years ago when my acupuncturist had me taking 3 tblspns. of flax seed oil a day for 3 months. Prior to this even the slighest amount of alcohol would give me a couple-day long hangover, afterwards, and to this day (when I take 1 tblspn/day) I can handle a good size glass of wine with no after effects except perhaps feeling a bit more tired the next day. My guess is this has something to do with the large amounts of flax seed oil pushing trans fatty acids (and who knows what other junk) out of my liver, enabling it to process things like alcohol much more efficiently. Judith G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Donna, Based on the overall picture, I think your response to the brassica family is an intolerance to the sulfur in them rather than an allergy to a protein in them. I don't yet understand how the sulfur intolerance gets going in some PWCs. Thorstenson, who used to be on this list, had that also, and I think she reported that it got better over time by taking small amounts of the sulfur-containing foods that she was able to tolerate in small amounts. Taking molybdenem might help, also. This is an important thing to try to correct, because sulfur metabolism is so important to the body. Can you tolerate taurine, SAMe, NAC, glucosamine sulfate or DMSO (dimethylsulfoxide)? Rich > I definitely have a sulfite oxidase deficiency, as evidenced through > testing, but I also have severe alcohol intolerance to even alcohol in > homeopathic remedies, so that, I suspect is due to more than just a sulfite > oxidase deficiency. > > > Donna in NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Rich, I don't know whether my case will move your understanding forward or not, but here goes. I have a high tolerance of alcohol in that up to about a bottle of wine a day the only effects are that I feel more relaxed (good) but it upsets my sleep/wake cycle (bad) and to a lesser extent my immune response (destabilises it). I suspect that the benefits to me are that it is a good vasodilator and relieves the feeling I get that my whole system is being stifled -- anyone else get this feeling? Yes I was in a highly stressful job and drank this amount before becoming ill (fits in) but here's the difficult bit. Your description of the individual with a partial blockade of the Krebs cycle fits me exactly -- the burning need for animal protein, the slow but inexorable weight gain. Rob ---- Original Message ----- From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...> < > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 3:27 PM Subject: Re: alcohol intolerance > The question of why some PWCs can tolerate alcohol is a very > intriguing one. There are some on this list who have reported that > they can. I have studied a few cases in detail in which this is > true. I think that some of them developed great liver capacity for > processing alcohol before they became ill with CFS, and perhaps their > livers have enough NAD+ to be able to continue to carry on > gluconeogenesis even while they use some of their NAD+ to support the > enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase. For > example, one of these cases was a diplomat who had been accustomed to > attending frequent diplomatic events at which drinking was the norm, > before he became ill. .. > > And of course, there is always the possibility of different subsets > of CFS that may not involve such strong dependence on the Cori > cycle. I can say that when I find a PWC who is alcohol-intolerant, > I'm pretty sure that they have partial blockades in the Krebs cycles > or respiratory chains of their red, " slow-twitch " skeletal muscle > cells, and I think this is true of the main subset, at least. > > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 I know what you mean about intolerance to alcohol I am the fluoride poisoned guy and there is a link . Cryolite is the insecticide of choice for grapes. The F- content of grape juices is extremely high as are raisens and wine. If the water used to make the wine is from a fluoradated supply it is even worse. Drinking at all would give me a hugh hang over. As soon as I learned I was poisoned I decided to test the hypothesis that it was a fluoride hangover by Drinking whiskey and PURE water. I drank enough where I usually felt bad for days and the effect was not even a trace of a hangover. Beer is also usually manufactured in Fluorodated cities and does the same thing - the fluoride hangover - even in small ammounts. Breweries also use fluoride to stop the yeast fermentation process - how much remains I don't know. By chance I was looking up stuff on F- and came across an article about Latrobe Brewing Co - the makers of Rolling Rock Beer - is manufactured in an UNfluorodated town , Latrobe PA I ran out and got some and drank at least 4 in a row . I got a little drunk but my throat did not go closed, no headache, no swelling of my chiari " hole " etc which occur with 3 glass of F- water! Just recently France ( 98% of Europe is NOT fluorodated) decreased the allowable F- content in wine imported into their country and has put a burden on the California wine producers. And the US gov wants to raise the allowable F- in alot of foods from pesticides Not everyone with CFS/FM is F- poisoned but it may be worth considering - especially when it is so east to test - Just drink 3 cups of Decaf Green Tea - one of the fluoride kings. -- In @y..., blueskyspring@a... wrote: > After onset of CFs/ME in 1983, along with all the other commonly held > symptoms, I too have degrees of intolerance to alcohol. > > Alcohol in certain forms are worse that others .. Red wine or some yellowy > coloured white wines are particularly bad, and knock me out for the count. I > do know what is in those wines in greater quantities. One doctor thought it > might be certain sulphurous chemicals? Anyone any ideas? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Hi Rich, I do attempt to take in small amounts of sulfur, at this time only in the form of supplements. I am currently taking 500 mg MSM twice a day, have been injecting mag sulfate and taurine for about 2 1/2 years now (I waste taurine in my urine big time). I tried glucosamine sulfate several times, the last time was about two months ago but did not tolerate it. Have never tried DMSO or SAMe. I tried NAC shortly after I realized I was having trouble with sulfur (when was on the list), and did not tolerate it then. I've been thinking about trying NAC again, but I guess fear keeps me away. I did order some mag sulfate cream from Kirkman's and every few days or so rub a little on my body, particularly behind my knees or on my back. So far I seem to tolerate the cream. I know I need to fix this problem, but don't know how. It's so strange how foods I used to eat in quantitiy become so intolerable, but it was a slow thing while it was happening, until one day I realized I tolerated no sulfur. any comments or thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Donna in NC Re: alcohol intolerance > Donna, > > Based on the overall picture, I think your response to the brassica > family is an intolerance to the sulfur in them rather than an allergy > to a protein in them. I don't yet understand how the sulfur > intolerance gets going in some PWCs. Thorstenson, who used > to be on this list, had that also, and I think she reported that it > got better over time by taking small amounts of the sulfur-containing > foods that she was able to tolerate in small amounts. Taking > molybdenem might help, also. This is an important thing to try to > correct, because sulfur metabolism is so important to the body. Can > you tolerate taurine, SAMe, NAC, glucosamine sulfate or DMSO > (dimethylsulfoxide)? > > Rich > > > > I definitely have a sulfite oxidase deficiency, as evidenced > through > > testing, but I also have severe alcohol intolerance to even alcohol > in > > homeopathic remedies, so that, I suspect is due to more than just a > sulfite > > oxidase deficiency. > > > > Donna in NC > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Hi Rich, et al, Thanks for all your comments. Like Donna, I cannot tolerate even the tiny amount of alcohol in homeopathics. Yes, I am intolerant of sulphites, MSG, also amines (including tyramine). Red wine in particular is very high in amines. However all alcohol has a terrible effect on me. I do not consume the brassica family of foods because of their amine content, seem to tolerate eggs OK, but garlic causes problems. I cannot consume whey because of dairy intolerance. All these food/chemical sensitivities only occured after contracting CFS. Thanks for the tip about molybdenum. I will certainly try it. For some reason Flaxseed/linseed oil also causes problems, so I cannot take it (maybe it's high in amines, but I can't find it listed anywhere to confirm this). Olive oil and lemon juice, which are often recommended for CFS are high in amines so I cannot use them. I agree with Mike and Rich that B Vits. help avoid hangovers. During remission I have used mega B's with high niacin/B3 very successfully to avoid hangovers. I think it's also essential after drinking alcohol to rehydrate by drinking lots of water before going to bed. Recently I tried a new product in Australia called Alcodol (a product supposed to stop hangovers) which was created by a CFS researcher. Anecdotally, when tested for efficacy by local TV stations, 9/10 (healthy) drinkers reported that they did not suffer their usual hangover. The researcher informed me that several people with CFS had used his product and had lost their intolerance to alcohol. Sadly, it didn't work for me. I am using NAET and TAT to treat all my intolerances and will keep you posted of any progress. Jan. >Message: 4 >Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:27:54 -0000 >From: " rvankonynen " >Subject: Re: alcohol intolerance Jan, When I made this comment, I was talking specifically about ethanol. In red wine, there are some other substances that may cause problems for some PWCs as well. One is sulfite, which is used as a preservative in most wines. Its mentioned on the label, at least in the U.S. Some PWCs are unable to process it. There's also tyramine, which is implicated in causing headaches in some people. I suspect that while you may well be intolerant of ethanol, ethanol is probably not what gives you problems for such a long time as two and a half months. Do you know whether you are sulfite-sensitive? If so, sometimes taking molybdenum will help this, since the enzyme for processing sulfite is molybdenum-dependent. The question of why some PWCs can tolerate alcohol is a very intriguing one. There are some on this list who have reported that they can. I have studied a few cases in detail in which this is true. I think that some of them developed great liver capacity for processing alcohol before they became ill with CFS, and perhaps their livers have enough NAD+ to be able to continue to carry on gluconeogenesis even while they use some of their NAD+ to support the enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase. For example, one of these cases was a diplomat who had been accustomed to attending frequent diplomatic events at which drinking was the norm, before he became ill. There could also be genetic differences in this regard. As you may know, many Asian people cannot tolerate alcohol because they have a genetic lack of the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase. Perhaps there are other people who have genetically received larger amounts of the enzymes needed. And of course, there is always the possibility of different subsets of CFS that may not involve such strong dependence on the Cori cycle. I can say that when I find a PWC who is alcohol-intolerant, I'm pretty sure that they have partial blockades in the Krebs cycles or respiratory chains of their red, " slow-twitch " skeletal muscle cells, and I think this is true of the main subset, at least. Rich > > Hi Rich, > > >I think lactic acidosis could kill a person with CFS, for example if > >they overindulged in alcohol, which temporarily shuts down the > >liver's ability to process lactic acid back to glucose via > >gluconeogenesis and the Cori cycle. It would not be a very pleasant > >way to go, though. > > Is this why so many of us are intolerant of alcohol? I avoid all acohol due to it's devastating effects on my health. If I drink one glass of red wine, I suffer terribly. The following day, I just feel rather hung over and the CFS symptoms are worse, but the day after that I feel absolutely deathly and the tortuous after effects last for weeks. I don't recover back to my usual level of CFS symptoms for about 2.5 months. I know of many PWC's are intolerant of alcohol, but some seem to be able to drink it with no problems. Why? > > Thanks, > > Jan. > > > > --------------------------------- Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Rob, This is intriguing. The only way I can think of to explain it is that your liver must have a lot of NAD+. Do you take supplementary niacin, niacinimide, or NADH? Another possibility is that tryptophan is a substrate for making niacin in the body, and you may be getting a lot of that from your high animal protein. Or you might just have good genes for the enzymes that make NAD+. Rich > Rich, > > I don't know whether my case will move your understanding forward or not, but here goes. > > I have a high tolerance of alcohol in that up to about a bottle of wine a day the only > effects are that I feel more relaxed (good) but it upsets my sleep/wake cycle (bad) and to > a lesser extent my immune response (destabilises it). I suspect that the benefits to me > are that it is a good vasodilator and relieves the feeling I get that my whole system is > being stifled -- anyone else get this feeling? > > Yes I was in a highly stressful job and drank this amount before becoming ill (fits in) > but here's the difficult bit. Your description of the individual with a partial blockade > of the Krebs cycle fits me exactly -- the burning need for animal protein, the slow but > inexorable weight gain. > > Rob > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@a...> > <@y...> > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 3:27 PM > Subject: Re: alcohol intolerance > > > > The question of why some PWCs can tolerate alcohol is a very > > intriguing one. There are some on this list who have reported that > > they can. I have studied a few cases in detail in which this is > > true. I think that some of them developed great liver capacity for > > processing alcohol before they became ill with CFS, and perhaps their > > livers have enough NAD+ to be able to continue to carry on > > gluconeogenesis even while they use some of their NAD+ to support the > > enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase. For > > example, one of these cases was a diplomat who had been accustomed to > > attending frequent diplomatic events at which drinking was the norm, > > before he became ill. > . > > > > And of course, there is always the possibility of different subsets > > of CFS that may not involve such strong dependence on the Cori > > cycle. I can say that when I find a PWC who is alcohol- intolerant, > > I'm pretty sure that they have partial blockades in the Krebs cycles > > or respiratory chains of their red, " slow-twitch " skeletal muscle > > cells, and I think this is true of the main subset, at least. > > > > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Judith, That's very interesting about the salutary effect of flax oil on your alcohol tolerance. I can't say I understand the biochemistry of that. I think that in the past most of the PWCs I've encountered who can tolerate alcohol have been males. I don't know why. Maybe I don't have enough statistics, so it just looks that way. But to me, that's another interesting thing about your case. I'm not sure whether I would classify you two in the same subset or not. I think we would have to look at a few more things. No doubt there will be a big run on flax oil now!! LOL!! Rich > > > Yes I was in a highly stressful job and drank this amount before > becoming ill (fits in) > > but here's the difficult bit. Your description of the individual with > a partial blockade > > of the Krebs cycle fits me exactly -- the burning need for animal > protein, the slow but > > inexorable weight gain. > > my alcohol intake pre CFIDS was less than Rob's , but the highly > stressful job, and kreb's cycle blockade info are the same for me. So > maybe the 2 of us are another sub-set!! > > Judith G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Jan, Sounds like you have a very challenging set of restricted foods, also. What may help with MSG is vitamin B-6 or the active form pyridoxal-5-phosphate. It supports the enzyme that converts glutamic acid to GABA (gamma aminobutyric acid). Glutamic acid is the main excitatory neurotransmitter in the brain, and GABA is the main inhibitory neurotransmitter. Taking B-6 may help to balance them out, so that MSG isn't such a problem. It's important not to overdo B-6 over the long term, though. 100 mg per day is probably O.K., but if you get up into the gram per day range, it can cause your fingers to have sensory neuropathy (tingling sensations), which, however, is fortunately reversible if you cut back on B-6. There's a lot I don't understand about these food sensitivities. Rich > > > > Hi Rich, > > > > >I think lactic acidosis could kill a person with CFS, for example > if > > >they overindulged in alcohol, which temporarily shuts down the > > >liver's ability to process lactic acid back to glucose via > > >gluconeogenesis and the Cori cycle. It would not be a very > pleasant > > >way to go, though. > > > > Is this why so many of us are intolerant of alcohol? I avoid all > acohol due to it's devastating effects on my health. If I drink one > glass of red wine, I suffer terribly. The following day, I just feel > rather hung over and the CFS symptoms are worse, but the day after > that I feel absolutely deathly and the tortuous after effects last > for weeks. I don't recover back to my usual level of CFS symptoms > for about 2.5 months. I know of many PWC's are intolerant of alcohol, > but some seem to be able to drink it with no problems. Why? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Donna, The only things I can suggest are taking the moly and taking small amounts of the sulfur-containing foods and supplements that you can tolerate, and trying to work up in dose on the latter. Sulfates should not be as much of a problem as some of the others, because it's the most oxidized form of sulfur in the body, and I don't think it gets chemically reduced to form the other things we've discussed. It is useful for cartilage and for the detox system, though, so if you can get some in, it may help with those, as well as sparing some of the chemically reduced forms of sulfur, such as cysteine, which is nnormally oxidized to provide sulfate. Hopefully that would allow more of the cysteine to go into making glutathione. Taurine is also normally made from cysteine, so the sparing comment goes for it, too. Rich > > > I definitely have a sulfite oxidase deficiency, as evidenced > > through > > > testing, but I also have severe alcohol intolerance to even alcohol > > in > > > homeopathic remedies, so that, I suspect is due to more than just a > > sulfite > > > oxidase deficiency. > > > > > Donna in NC > > > > > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each > other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment > discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 I question the genetic factor, just because at certain times during my illness I have been extremely alcohol intolerant, while at other times I am not much at all. I am benefiting currently from a high protein diet (which we just discussed on a separate thread as being a problem with the kreb's cycle) and currently can drink alcohol without much problems. I don't drink much of course, I think it would do me in. But a beer now and then is no problem for about the last year. But I have been very sick during much of that time. At other times I wasn't as symptomatic, but the alcohol killed me. I wonder if it has something to do with mercury, or with supplements I am taking now that maybe I wasn't then. Thanks, Doris ----- Original Message ----- From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...> > The question of why some PWCs can tolerate alcohol is a very > intriguing one. There are some on this list who have reported that > they can. I have studied a few cases in detail in which this is > true. I think that some of them developed great liver capacity for > processing alcohol before they became ill with CFS, and perhaps their > livers have enough NAD+ to be able to continue to carry on > gluconeogenesis even while they use some of their NAD+ to support the > enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase. For > example, one of these cases was a diplomat who had been accustomed to > attending frequent diplomatic events at which drinking was the norm, > before he became ill. > > There could also be genetic differences in this regard. As you may > know, many Asian people cannot tolerate alcohol because they have a > genetic lack of the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase. Perhaps there are > other people who have genetically received larger amounts of the > enzymes needed. > > And of course, there is always the possibility of different subsets > of CFS that may not involve such strong dependence on the Cori > cycle. I can say that when I find a PWC who is alcohol-intolerant, > I'm pretty sure that they have partial blockades in the Krebs cycles > or respiratory chains of their red, " slow-twitch " skeletal muscle > cells, and I think this is true of the main subset, at least. > > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Doris, As I mentioned in my message to Rob, it could be high niacin in your supplements or high tryptophan in your high protein diet. Both these will help to supply more NAD+ to the liver cells, and that, together with the enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase, is what enables the liver to break down alcohol. I think the NAD+ supply would be the most important factor in your case, because you clearly genetically have the enzymes, since at times you are fairly alcohol-tolerant. The lack of enough NAD+ shuts down gluconeogenesis in the liver, and that's what brings on the symptoms associated with hypoglycemia and lactic acidosis. If you don't have those symptoms, and at the same time the normal alcohol effects that you do notice do go away in a normal length of time, then I would say that your liver is processing alcohol well, and you must not be short of NAD+. Rich > I question the genetic factor, just because at certain times during my > illness I have been extremely alcohol intolerant, while at other times I am > not much at all. I am benefiting currently from a high protein diet (which > we just discussed on a separate thread as being a problem with the kreb's > cycle) and currently can drink alcohol without much problems. I don't drink > much of course, I think it would do me in. But a beer now and then is no > problem for about the last year. But I have been very sick during much of > that time. At other times I wasn't as symptomatic, but the alcohol killed > me. > > I wonder if it has something to do with mercury, or with supplements I am > taking now that maybe I wasn't then. > Thanks, > Doris > ----- Original Message ----- > From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@a...> > > > The question of why some PWCs can tolerate alcohol is a very > > intriguing one. There are some on this list who have reported that > > they can. I have studied a few cases in detail in which this is > > true. I think that some of them developed great liver capacity for > > processing alcohol before they became ill with CFS, and perhaps their > > livers have enough NAD+ to be able to continue to carry on > > gluconeogenesis even while they use some of their NAD+ to support the > > enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase. For > > example, one of these cases was a diplomat who had been accustomed to > > attending frequent diplomatic events at which drinking was the norm, > > before he became ill. > > > > There could also be genetic differences in this regard. As you may > > know, many Asian people cannot tolerate alcohol because they have a > > genetic lack of the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase. Perhaps there are > > other people who have genetically received larger amounts of the > > enzymes needed. > > > > And of course, there is always the possibility of different subsets > > of CFS that may not involve such strong dependence on the Cori > > cycle. I can say that when I find a PWC who is alcohol- intolerant, > > I'm pretty sure that they have partial blockades in the Krebs cycles > > or respiratory chains of their red, " slow-twitch " skeletal muscle > > cells, and I think this is true of the main subset, at least. > > > > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Thanks Rich. Could this explain why my plasma cysteine is low? It seems most PWC's have a high cysteine, but I am low in cysteine, as well, of course, glutathione. I do take moly, and will continue to try to increase some of what I do tolerate. As an aside, it was posted on the metals list that Great Smokies Lab is now doing a Genetic Detox Test. I wonder if will tell it claims to. The website is www.genovations.com. Info below: New GSDL test- inborn detox capabilities ***SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT*** -NEW GENOMIC TEST NOW AVAILABLE TO PRACTITIONERS -CAN REVEAL HIDDEN CAUSES OF ADVERSE DRUG REACTIONS, CHEMICAL SENSITIVITY & CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROMES For the first time, primary care practitioners can utilize a powerful new clinical tool to assess each patient's inborn ability to metabolize drugs, steroid hormones, and environmental toxins. Great Smokies Diagnostic Laboratory and GenovationsT are pleased to announce the launch of the new DetoxiGenomicT profile. This advanced profile is an extensive evaluation of over 20 genetic variations affecting Phase I and Phase II Detoxification and Oxidative Protection. Genetic analysis of Phase I and Phase II detoxification pathways is one of the most promising and fastest-growing areas in environmental, pharmaceutical, and genomic medicine. It offers the opportunity for diverse and powerful clinical applications, including risk identification and reduction for adverse drug reactions, chemical sensitivity, certain cancers, neurodegenerative disorders, and fatigue syndromes. " The detoxification system is the body's primary defense against 'foreign' chemicals entering the body, " explains Hanaway, M.D., GSDL Medical Director. " This new profile will allow doctors to identify potential genetic 'trouble spots' in this self-defense system early on, so they can design precise, individualized therapy to support detoxification and to avert health problems-as well as adverse reactions to medications and supplements-before they happen. " The potential clinical benefits are enormous. Adverse reactions to prescription drugs have been ranked as the fourth to the sixth leading cause of mortality in the U.S. Each year about 100,000 Americans die from adverse reactions to pharmaceuticals-more than double the number killed in motor vehicle accidents. Annual hospital costs from these reactions have been estimated at between $1.5 to $4 billion. " One gene evaluated in this new profile, CYP3A4, affects an enzyme the body uses to detoxify over 50% of all drugs-including many anti-depressants, steroid hormones, and lipid-lowering medications, " Dr. Hanaway points ut. " Another, CYP2D6, affects an nzyme that etabolizes over 38% of drugs commonly cited in adverse drug reaction studies. " Besides being exposed to a growing variety of drugs, the human body is exposed to increasing toxic compounds in the environment, including pesticides, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (eg, car exhaust, tobacco smoke), and solvents. Environmental factors are now generally believed to be involved in the causation of nearly all cancers; the World Health Organization has estimated that environmental factors constitute 25-33% of global disease burden. While other genetic assessments analyze isolated detoxification pathways involved in the processing of pharmaceuticals, the DetoxiGenomicT profile is a more comprehensive evaluation of over 20 genetic variations affecting the patient's ability to detoxify food components, steroid hormones, medications, and environmental toxins. This will allow primary care physicians to individualize prevention and treatment strategies as they address conditions associated with chronic exposure to toxic substances, including multiple chemical sensitivity, neurodegenerative disorders, and chronic fatigue syndromes. The new DetoxiGenomicT profile is the latest addition to the GenovationsT line, which applies breakthroughs in genetic research to create innovative clinical assessment tools for primary care physicians to practice personalized medicine. GenovationsT tests measure individual genetic variations called single nucleotide polymorphisms. Under the influence of environmental triggers, these variations can make even a healthy person more prone to develop certain diseases or physiological imbalances. This allows physicians to implement customized preventive interventions earlier and with greater specificity, to reduce a patient's disease risk before symptoms appear. In addition to the DetoxiGenomicT profile, predictive genomic diagnostic profiles for cardiovascular health, bone health, and immune function are also available. Additional predictive genomic profiles for the primary care market will also be available soon. To order test kits, or to receive more information, visit http://www.genovations.com or call a Clinical Support Specialist at 800-522-4762. Great Smokies Diagnostic Laboratory http://www.gsdl.com provides advanced, innovative assessments of gastrointestinal, endocrine, immune, nutritional, and metabolic function to healthcare providers worldwide. GSDL's quality clinical laboratory services are licensed by Medicare and several state regulatory agencies, and accredited by the College of American Pathologists. Re: alcohol intolerance > Donna, > > The only things I can suggest are taking the moly and taking small amounts of the sulfur-containing foods and supplements that you can tolerate, and trying to work up in dose on the latter. Sulfates should not be as much of a problem as some of the others, because it's the most oxidized form of sulfur in the body, and I don't think it gets chemically reduced to form the other things we've discussed. It is useful for cartilage and for the detox system, though, so if you can get some in, it may help with those, as well as sparing some of the chemically reduced forms of sulfur, such as cysteine, which is nnormally oxidized to provide sulfate. Hopefully that would allow more of the cysteine to go into making glutathione. Taurine is also normally made from cysteine, so the sparing comment goes for it, too. > > Rich > > > > Hi Rich, > > I do attempt to take in small amounts of sulfur, at this time only in the form of supplements. I am currently taking 500 mg MSM twice a day, have been injecting mag sulfate and taurine for about 2 1/2 years now (I waste taurine in my urine big time). I tried glucosamine sulfate several times, the last time was about two months ago but did not tolerate it. Have never tried DMSO or SAMe. I tried NAC shortly after I realized I was having trouble with sulfur (when was on the list), and did not tolerate it then. I've been thinking about trying NAC again, but I guess fear keeps me away. I did order some mag sulfate cream from Kirkman's and every few days or so rub a little on my body, particularly behind my knees or on my back. So far I seem to tolerate the cream. I know I need to fix this problem, but don't know how. It's so strange how foods I used to eat in quantitiy become so intolerable, but it was a slow thing while it was happening, until one day I realized I tolerated no sulfur. any comments or thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > Donna in NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2002 Report Share Posted September 15, 2002 Donna, I suspect that your cysteine is low because you are unable to tolerate many of the things that would supply it. And if you are low in cysteine, it is not surprising that you would be low in glutathione also, because cysteine is usually the limiting amino acid for synthesis of glutathione in the body. Thanks for posting the information on the new Great Smokies test. It sounds pretty interesting. Looks like it would give a lot more information than the detox panels they have been offering, and also show whether deficiencies in detox are genetic or not. I wonder what it costs? Rich > Thanks Rich. Could this explain why my plasma cysteine is low? It seems most > PWC's have a high cysteine, but I am low in cysteine, as well, of course, > glutathione. I do take moly, and will continue to try to increase some of > what I do tolerate. > > As an aside, it was posted on the metals list that Great Smokies Lab is now > doing a Genetic Detox Test. I wonder if will tell it claims to. The website > is www.genovations.com. Info below: > > New GSDL test- inborn detox capabilities > > ***SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT*** > > -NEW GENOMIC TEST NOW AVAILABLE TO PRACTITIONERS > > -CAN REVEAL HIDDEN CAUSES OF ADVERSE DRUG REACTIONS, CHEMICAL SENSITIVITY & > CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROMES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2002 Report Share Posted September 15, 2002 How much niacin do you call " high " ? I used to take 500-1000 for coagulation, but it was making me sicker and sicker so I stopped taking it. Now it is just what is in my B100 pill. So if that is enough, then maybe that is it, because I didn't used to take any B vitamins other than the standard multivitamin (when I was alcohol intolerant.) I don't think it could be the protein, because I just started that the past 2 months and the intolerance stopped before that. Thanks, Doris ----- Original Message ----- From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...> > As I mentioned in my message to Rob, it could be high niacin in your > supplements or high tryptophan in your high protein diet. Both these > will help to supply more NAD+ to the liver cells, and that, together > with the enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase, is > what enables the liver to break down alcohol. I think the NAD+ > supply would be the most important factor in your case, because you > clearly genetically have the enzymes, since at times you are fairly > alcohol-tolerant. The lack of enough NAD+ shuts down gluconeogenesis > in the liver, and that's what brings on the symptoms associated with > hypoglycemia and lactic acidosis. If you don't have those symptoms, > and at the same time the normal alcohol effects that you do notice do > go away in a normal length of time, then I would say that your liver > is processing alcohol well, and you must not be short of NAD+. > > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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