Re: preschool benefits

January 19, 2007

Eileen,

Wow do your questions match what mine were 3 years ago.. We started

Kiernan out at Middleburg at age 2... and those first 2 years.. both

there and at the Olmsted Falls preschool.. you would have thought

there was some serious wrestling matches going on... Kiernan would

not sit at circle.. he wouldn't sit at the table.. (wow could this

turn into a really wierd green eggs and ham type of story.. lol.. i

will not sit on a goat i will not sit on a boat.. Sorry.. long

week!) anyway.. he constantly required physical prompts for what is

needed... I think all of his teachers could give those professional

wrestlers a lesson now! ..when it was just us or teachers he was

fine.. but put those other kids in the classroom and he would have a

major meltdown... running out of the room, screaming, kicking,

throwing himself around.. now mind you he was not very verbal (4-6

words) at that time... but he let it known he didn't want to be

there.... I can't tell you how many times I walked away from that

classroom crying my eyes out feeling like a horrible mother for not

being there when he was screaming out for me.. he didn't want to be

there... but after awhile.. he didn't seem to mind it so much.. and

it wasn't just that he had given up and was giving in... he was

learning that there are rules and that we (teachers, parents, all

people above 5') have expectations of him and that there is a way to

interact and behave and a way not to... he started to thrive under

the structure he was receiving.. and we started seeing more and more

of his personality... he no longer cried when going into the

classroom.. but now pushed me away and said bye mommy... and then i

cried more .. tears of joy then... and he started to be ok playing

next to the kids.. now he still didn't interact with the special

needs or typical children.... but he started to interact with the

teachers.. and the aid... and now... even other children... I

just came from an IEP meeting... 8 am meetings... gotta love em! He

has not only met.. but exceeded all of his goals that we set for him

back in september.. and his teacher had to show me pictures.. he

actually sat at the table during table time. and asked another boy to

play... Mason play you? was how he asked.. then proceeded to help him

do a puzzle for 8 minutes!! 8 entire minutes... now Mason is a

little boy who is physically disabled... they said Kiernan would ask

him.. Mason, piece go here? Mason would either nod or shake his head

and then Kiernan would put the piece in... he wasn't just interacting

with a peer.. he was helping him! Together they did an entire puzzle

and when it was done.. Kiernan hugged Mason and told him good job..

3 years ago I would have told you something like that could never

have happened... now... I say anything can happen...

So I guess you could say.. I would say preschool is a pro.. it's

providing structure for the children and a routine which they seem to

thrive in... they learn how to interact with others.. that there

are expectations set upon them... will it be rough at first... oh

yes.. most definately.. but the long term benefits are worth it...

and they say... early intervention is the best... they aren't

kidding... at that early age.. they can soak in so much more.. you

can reach them at some level that if you way to long... might no

longer be possible... if they are kept at home... not interacting

with peers... when will they learn how? The only person that can

limit our child's potential and abilities is us.... and if we dont

limit them.... they will surprise us..

The only con... the hour, two hours, even 3... goes by too fast...

and I think they need more than that... but that's another fight..

but if just 2 hours a day a few days a week can make so much

difference.. isn't it worth it? Besides.. it's not like you'll stop

working with him at home, right?

Ok ok ok.. I'm done rambling..

I hope I've helped....

--- In , Eileen Sullivan <esullivan.home@...>

wrote:

>

> Hi all!

>

> Although my son will be 3 next week and is all set to start in an

integrated preschool program (Avon public schools) at the end of the

month, I'm starting to have second thoughts about whether it's a good

idea. He's going to start out doing just an hour, 4 days/week. When

he met his teacher (without kids in the classroom), he did fairly

well (i.e., no scripting, no " crashing " into the floor, he played

appropriately with toys, sat at a table, and used 3-4 word phrases

which is good language for him). But, when we went to the classroom

for 15 minutes while the other children were there (there are 4 on an

IEP and 4 typical peers, 1 teacher and 1 aide), his scripting

increased dramatically, he couldn't sit still for circle time and was

obviously overwhelmed and overstimulated. Now, I know he's barely 3,

hasn't had the chance to acclimate himself to the school setting,

but . . . my questions are these: (1) what are the pros and cons

with doing this kind of preschool? (2)

> could it be more harm than good? (3) does anyone else have

experience where their child got used to the setting over time or

didn't, and for that matter, how do you know that the child isn't

just withdrawing instead of complying (4) how does the preschool help

the autism or is it just that a child with autism is entitled to go

to preschool and this is all that's available (we are on the waiting

list for Middleburg, so that's not available right now).

>

> The thing that got me thinking about this was seeing the aide try

to (gently) restrain by grabbing him every time he got out of

his chair during circle time, which was every few seconds. He cried

and cried and disrupted the class. One of two things will happen

going forward - he'll cry and she'll repeatedly pull him back into

the chair or he'll eventually give up and withdraw into his autism

world. Neither of which is desirable. Is that negative outcome

worth the possible benefits of parallel playing next to typical peers

and learning to attend to a teacher-directed task?

>

> Probably, no one but myself and my husband can answer these

questions. I'm just curious if anyone else has thought about these

things too.

>

> Thanks in advance,

> Eileen

>

> ---------------------------------

> 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time

> with the Search movie showtime shortcut.

>

January 19, 2007

I just have to say...this story about Kiernan & Mason doing a puzzle actually brought a tear to my eye. That is so awesome . Those things make 8 am meetings worth it.

~byb~

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of If you want to know.. Ask!Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 10:24 AM Subject: [ ] Re: preschool benefits

Eileen,Wow do your questions match what mine were 3 years ago.. We started Kiernan out at Middleburg at age 2... and those first 2 years.. both there and at the Olmsted Falls preschool.. you would have thought there was some serious wrestling matches going on... Kiernan would not sit at circle.. he wouldn't sit at the table.. (wow could this turn into a really wierd green eggs and ham type of story.. lol.. i will not sit on a goat i will not sit on a boat.. Sorry.. long week!) anyway.. he constantly required physical prompts for what is needed... I think all of his teachers could give those professional wrestlers a lesson now! ..when it was just us or teachers he was fine.. but put those other kids in the classroom and he would have a major meltdown... running out of the room, screaming, kicking, throwing himself around.. now mind you he was not very verbal (4-6 words) at that time... but he let it known he didn't want to be there.... I can't tell you how many times I walked away from that classroom crying my eyes out feeling like a horrible mother for not being there when he was screaming out for me.. he didn't want to be there... but after awhile.. he didn't seem to mind it so much.. and it wasn't just that he had given up and was giving in... he was learning that there are rules and that we (teachers, parents, all people above 5') have expectations of him and that there is a way to interact and behave and a way not to... he started to thrive under the structure he was receiving.. and we started seeing more and more of his personality... he no longer cried when going into the classroom.. but now pushed me away and said bye mommy... and then i cried more .. tears of joy then... and he started to be ok playing next to the kids.. now he still didn't interact with the special needs or typical children.... but he started to interact with the teachers.. and the aid... and now... even other children... I just came from an IEP meeting... 8 am meetings... gotta love em! He has not only met.. but exceeded all of his goals that we set for him back in september.. and his teacher had to show me pictures.. he actually sat at the table during table time. and asked another boy to play... Mason play you? was how he asked.. then proceeded to help him do a puzzle for 8 minutes!! 8 entire minutes... now Mason is a little boy who is physically disabled... they said Kiernan would ask him.. Mason, piece go here? Mason would either nod or shake his head and then Kiernan would put the piece in... he wasn't just interacting with a peer.. he was helping him! Together they did an entire puzzle and when it was done.. Kiernan hugged Mason and told him good job.. 3 years ago I would have told you something like that could never have happened... now... I say anything can happen... So I guess you could say.. I would say preschool is a pro.. it's providing structure for the children and a routine which they seem to thrive in... they learn how to interact with others.. that there are expectations set upon them... will it be rough at first... oh yes.. most definately.. but the long term benefits are worth it... and they say... early intervention is the best... they aren't kidding... at that early age.. they can soak in so much more.. you can reach them at some level that if you way to long... might no longer be possible... if they are kept at home... not interacting with peers... when will they learn how? The only person that can limit our child's potential and abilities is us.... and if we dont limit them.... they will surprise us.. The only con... the hour, two hours, even 3... goes by too fast... and I think they need more than that... but that's another fight.. but if just 2 hours a day a few days a week can make so much difference.. isn't it worth it? Besides.. it's not like you'll stop working with him at home, right? Ok ok ok.. I'm done rambling.. I hope I've helped....>> Hi all! > > Although my son will be 3 next week and is all set to start in an integrated preschool program (Avon public schools) at the end of the month, I'm starting to have second thoughts about whether it's a good idea. He's going to start out doing just an hour, 4 days/week. When he met his teacher (without kids in the classroom), he did fairly well (i.e., no scripting, no "crashing" into the floor, he played appropriately with toys, sat at a table, and used 3-4 word phrases which is good language for him). But, when we went to the classroom for 15 minutes while the other children were there (there are 4 on an IEP and 4 typical peers, 1 teacher and 1 aide), his scripting increased dramatically, he couldn't sit still for circle time and was obviously overwhelmed and overstimulated. Now, I know he's barely 3, hasn't had the chance to acclimate himself to the school setting, but . . . my questions are these: (1) what are the pros and cons with doing this kind of preschool? (2)> could it be more harm than good? (3) does anyone else have experience where their child got used to the setting over time or didn't, and for that matter, how do you know that the child isn't just withdrawing instead of complying (4) how does the preschool help the autism or is it just that a child with autism is entitled to go to preschool and this is all that's available (we are on the waiting list for Middleburg, so that's not available right now). > > The thing that got me thinking about this was seeing the aide try to (gently) restrain by grabbing him every time he got out of his chair during circle time, which was every few seconds. He cried and cried and disrupted the class. One of two things will happen going forward - he'll cry and she'll repeatedly pull him back into the chair or he'll eventually give up and withdraw into his autism world. Neither of which is desirable. Is that negative outcome worth the possible benefits of parallel playing next to typical peers and learning to attend to a teacher-directed task? > > Probably, no one but myself and my husband can answer these questions. I'm just curious if anyone else has thought about these things too.> > Thanks in advance, > Eileen> > > ---------------------------------> 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time> with the Search movie showtime shortcut.>

January 19, 2007

Thanks.. yeah i know. as she's showing me pictures of the two of them

and telling me all about it.. i'm cryin.. my husband is cryin.. she's

cryin and the para is cryin... but it was a happy IEP meeting over

all... although they denied us ESY again.. said he has made so much

progress and showed no long term regression from breaks or last

summer... but that's ok.. we'll be sending him to Middleburg's ESY on

our own anyway.. We are making entirely tooo much progress to stop

now!! This keeps up.. and I wouldn't even complain about a 7am

meeting! LOL

> >

> > Hi all!

> >

> > Although my son will be 3 next week and is all set to start in an

> integrated preschool program (Avon public schools) at the end of

the

> month, I'm starting to have second thoughts about whether it's a

good

> idea. He's going to start out doing just an hour, 4 days/week. When

> he met his teacher (without kids in the classroom), he did fairly

> well (i.e., no scripting, no " crashing " into the floor, he played

> appropriately with toys, sat at a table, and used 3-4 word phrases

> which is good language for him). But, when we went to the classroom

> for 15 minutes while the other children were there (there are 4 on

an

> IEP and 4 typical peers, 1 teacher and 1 aide), his scripting

> increased dramatically, he couldn't sit still for circle time and

was

> obviously overwhelmed and overstimulated. Now, I know he's barely

3,

> hasn't had the chance to acclimate himself to the school setting,

> but . . . my questions are these: (1) what are the pros and cons

> with doing this kind of preschool? (2)

> > could it be more harm than good? (3) does anyone else have

> experience where their child got used to the setting over time or

> didn't, and for that matter, how do you know that the child isn't

> just withdrawing instead of complying (4) how does the preschool

help

> the autism or is it just that a child with autism is entitled to go

> to preschool and this is all that's available (we are on the

waiting

> list for Middleburg, so that's not available right now).

> >

> > The thing that got me thinking about this was seeing the aide try

> to (gently) restrain by grabbing him every time he got out of

> his chair during circle time, which was every few seconds. He cried

> and cried and disrupted the class. One of two things will happen

> going forward - he'll cry and she'll repeatedly pull him back into

> the chair or he'll eventually give up and withdraw into his autism

> world. Neither of which is desirable. Is that negative outcome

> worth the possible benefits of parallel playing next to typical

peers

> and learning to attend to a teacher-directed task?

> >

> > Probably, no one but myself and my husband can answer these

> questions. I'm just curious if anyone else has thought about these

> things too.

> >

> > Thanks in advance,

> > Eileen

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time

> > with the Search movie showtime shortcut.

> >

>

January 20, 2007

, I loved your story! That is so wonderful!

Eileen, I can certainly understand your apprehension. But in most cases, I think that an integrated preschool is usually a good thing. As I've said before, someday our children are going to grow up and be in the world with the rest of the neurotypicals. They may as well learn how to get along with them sooner rather than later. But, all children are different. What works for one may not work for another.

Your specific questions were: (1) what are the pros and cons with doing this kind of preschool? There are going to be good parts and bad parts to everything. The best we can do is try to make sure the good outweighs the bad. Pros in my opinion are: socialization with neurotypical children; help with therapies, even if you're pursuing help from outside the school district; acclimation to the school environment so that it won't be so shocking when they have to go to kindergarten or first grade. Cons: Is free help necessarily the best help? Not always. Will they pick up other undesirable behaviors from other kids on IEPs? Can they handle the school setting -- is that LRE for your particular child?

(2)could it be more harm than good? Honestly, yes, but I'd like to think that is not typical. There is usually some benefit to the child, even the worst case scenarios. And, you generally have to go the school route to prove that it is or is not working, unless you can and want to secure funding for your child's IEP implementation all on your own (which, to me seems easier if they're younger...not so much when they're older, like elementary and above). Remember, under the law, your child is entitled to a "free and appropriate public education"...not to the best education, not to an expensive private education at the public school's expense -- although that's not to say that doesn't end up being what is appropriate for your child...each one will be different.

(3) does anyone else have experience where their child got used to the setting over time or didn't, and for that matter, how do you know that the child isn't just withdrawing instead of complying This is a two-parter, so part one first...Yes, my youngest son had to get used to the preschool setting. At first, it was disastrous! He spent the whole morning screaming! Ugh...I hate to think about it. But, that was two-and-a-half years ago, and he's doing much better now (yes, it took some time). In fact, he gets upset when he doesn't have school for awhile -- like over a break. On the flip side, there's my other son, who loved preschool and kindergarten and is now in some circle of hell for first grade. You never know unless you try it. Part two of your question: Well, you might not unless you see some definite signs one way or the other. If you set up a system of communication with the teacher/aides/therapists and they keep it up and tell you what they are seeing, then that's a good way to know. I have a great situation with that with the folks who teach my youngest son, but the polar opposite situation with the folks who teach my oldest. Look for signs: does he hate going everyday (you'll have to give him a while to get used to it though, so this might take several months), has his personality changed greatly for the worse at home? Is he unusually needy and clingy to you when he's home? Again, these all may take a while to really tell.

(4) how does the preschool help the autism or is it just that a child with autism is entitled to go to preschool and this is all that's available (we are on the waiting list for Middleburg, so that's not available right now). Well, it's a little of both. Under IDEA, technically, a preschool setting isn't ALL that's available, but you do have to try it to prove whether or not it is or is not appropriate for your child's unique needs. You may be pleasantly surprised to find that he exceeds your expectations in preschool. My youngest son has certainly exceeded our expectations in some areas thanks to preschool. My oldest son did well in preschool too. Since you're on the waiting list at Middleburg, I would try the preschool setting at your district in the meantime. You can always change your course of action after you discover how he's doing.

As an aside, make sure you let them know that you need to be told if things are not working out. Tell them you want them to be honest with you. Check in on him if you can. Will your child receive any OT at the school? Make your son's sensory needs clear in writing to the school -- for instance, if you know he doesn't like to be touched if he's melting down, tell them that. Tell them what you have found works. If need be, request an OT do a sensory diet for your child.

Best of luck to you. I'm sure all will work out just fine.

--Suzanne

-----Original Message-----

From: mystique2574@...

Sent: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:23 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: preschool benefits