Re: Emailing: how-much-tamiflu-is-enough.htm

November 11, 2007

do not use tamifue, period. Let the fever run ts course, the tamiflu

will interfere, you think you are better, but inside of you the virus

builds up, than you get sick, your lungs fill with water or fluid and

no way you survive.

I think I got this expained via fourwinds10, or another webside(dutch

one) but it might be, I cannot pull up the article as it is one

another computer I can no longer access. Please do not use tamiflu, or

any fever reducing drug if you really get the (avian)flu, Atiester

On Nov 11, 2007 7:20 PM, Joyce Hudson <bjoyful@...> wrote:

>

> Avian Flu Diary

>

> This blog will be my attempt to chronicle the Avian Flu threat. As a former

> paramedic, I was heavily involved in the public Health Response to the

> the author but may be reprinted with attribution. All opinions expressed are

> my own, and should not be taken as medical advice or recommendations by the

> reader.

>

> Sunday, November 11, 2007

>

> How Much Tamiflu Is Enough?

>

> #1243

>

> Today's story out of the UK indicates that their Pandemic Influenza

> Scientific Advisory Group is urging the government to triple their stockpile

> of Tamiflu (oseltamavir).

>

> They believe that coverage for 75% of their population is essential if they

> are to " exert reasonable control over the scale and severity of the national

> outbreak "

>

> First the story, then a discussion.

>

> 'Too few jabs' to fight flu epidemic

>

> Last Updated: 2:44am GMT 11/11/2007

>

> Stockpiles of drugs to fight a flu pandemic must be increased if the death

> toll from an outbreak of the virus is to be minimised, senior government

> advisers have warned

>

> The latest research by the Pandemic Influenza Scientific Advisory Group

> claims that the number of antiviral doses held by the Government must be

> tripled if a flu pandemic is to be effectively controlled.

>

> The current stockpile of 14.6 million courses of the antiviral drug Tamiflu

> covers 25 per cent of the population.

>

> However, the group warned that " under no circumstances " would it be possible

> to limit effectively the number of cases and deaths with the existing

> stocks.

>

> It said there were not enough doses available to give drugs to family

> members of an infected patient, making it hard to stop an outbreak spreading

> once it gained hold.

>

> Instead, the scientists recommend boosting the stockpile to cover more than

> 75 per cent of the population.

>

> Such a move would allow doctors to " exert reasonable control over the scale

> and severity of the national outbreak " .

>

> Last month, in a blog called How (not) To Break Bad News I recounted the

> hoary story of the English gentleman calling home to his butler, to find

> that his dog had died. I equated that slow motion dispensing of bad news

> to the way information about a pandemic is released.

>

> By drips and drabs.

>

> Here we have another drip. Although, not an unexpected one.

>

> Conventional wisdom over the past couple of years has stated that 25%

> coverage of the population with Tamiflu would be sufficient. We are also

> told that a 10-pill course of Tamiflu is all that is required. Both of

> these assumptions have come under fire in the past, and are likely to

> continue to do so.

>

> I suspect these original estimates were based more on what officials thought

> they could `sell' to their respective governments, more than on logic and

> science. Budgets are tight, and spending money to thwart a pandemic that

> might not happen anytime soon is politically risky.

>

> Two years ago, the 10-pill course for 25% of the population may have been

> seen as about as much as pandemic planners could hope for. Better to get

> that, than ask for 3 times that much, and get turned down flat.

>

> But we now know that the 10 pill course of Tamiflu is probably insufficient.

> And estimates of the attack rate, the percentage of people who are sickened

> in a pandemic, have escalated over the past couple of years, going from a

> conservative 25% to speculation that 50% or more of the population may be

> susceptible.

>

> Right now patients are routinely given more than the 2 pills a day for 5

> days (10 pill course) of Tamiflu, and still, many of them die. There are

> trials underway looking at whether a `double the dose for double the

> duration' will improve survival.

>

> In other words, instead of 10 pills, a course would require 40 pills.

>

> In a country like Britain, one that already has enough tamiflu at the lower

> dose to treat 25% of their population, an increase in the dose to 40 pills

> would reduce their coverage to roughly 6%.

>

> The United States, which currently only has enough Tamiflu on hand to treat

> about 15% of the nation (at the lower dose), would be down to only enough

> for 4% at the higher dose.

>

> Of course, we don't know if the higher doses will improve patient outcomes.

> Early data suggests that it might, but no controlled studies have been

> completed.

>

> And this only figures treating people already infected. It provides nothing

> for prophylaxis.

>

> But let's use the 10 pill course for now, even if it may prove woefully

> inadequate in the future. The United States, which after two years is

> still a year away from achieving a 25% stockpile, would need another 160

> million courses of the medicine under these guidelines. The UK, another 30

> million Courses.

>

> Even at the heavily discounted price governments pay for the stuff, this is

> hardly chump change. We are talking billions of dollars to purchase, and

> it has a limited shelf life. Then there are storage costs, distribution

> costs during a crisis, and some real problems with the dosing being

> purchased.

>

> Almost all of the Tamiflu purchased by the United States has been in the

> form of 75mg capsules, used for the Adult dose. Out of 50 million courses,

> reportedly only 100,000 are in the pediatric liquid form. Since we are

> stockpiling for a disease that strikes the young, buying 99% of our Tamiflu

> in adult formulation doesn't make a lot of sense.

>

> And for children under the age of 1 year old, Tamiflu is an unapproved

> drug.

>

> There are concerns that Tamiflu may cross the immature blood brain barrier

> in infants, and cause brain damage. Additionally there are reports that

> children and teenagers, mostly in japan, have on rare occasions experienced

> neuro-psychiatric side effects while on Tamiflu, resulting in a small number

> of patients attempting suicide.

>

> There are studies ongoing, and expected to run into 2009, testing the safety

> of Tamiflu for infants. Roche labs is said to be investigating the reports

> of side effects in teenagers.

>

> So, Tamiflu isn't a panacea. And there is a risk that once it is put into

> play combating a pandemic, overuse could drive the virus to become

> resistant, rendering the remainder of the stockpile pretty much useless.

>

> Buying more Tamiflu is, admittedly, a risk.

>

> But right now, it is the only game in town. Without a vaccine, antivirals

> are our best weapon against influenza. We either have them, or we are

> reduced to NPI's (Non-pharmaceutical Interventions) to limit the spread of

> the disease.

>

> The government obviously needs to stockpile more pediatric doses of Tamiflu.

> The idea that we only have enough for 100,000 children is ludicrous. There

> are 40 million children under the age of 10 in the United States. If only

> 25% are sickened (a low estimate), then we'd need 2.5 million courses.

>

> Governments, I'm sure, are going to be reluctant to spend billions of

> dollars to stockpile more Tamiflu. And by looking at the facts, tripling

> the number of doses may not be enough. A 75% coverage with an inadequate

> dose is better than a 25% coverage, but it doesn't get the job done. If

> the 40 pill course is eventually adopted, that 75% coverage drops to 19%.

>

> While more stockpiling is needed, at the same time we should enable our

> citizens to buy Tamiflu, at a discount and without a Rx, to keep on hand in

> their homes.

>

> Right now, the price of Tamiflu is ridiculously high. A 10-pill course,

> retail, runs as much as $100. The government buys that same course for a

> fraction of that cost. Roche could probably lower the price to the public

> by 70% and still make a profit.

>

> Doctors have been reluctant to write scripts to patients who want to have

> tamiflu on hand because the government has warned them not to. They wanted

> first dibs on the existing supply. We should remove that restriction, or

> better yet, make Tamiflu available over-the-counter.

>

> Millions of American families would probably buy enough tamiflu for

> themselves if the price were reasonable, and the government was recommending

> it. That would move the burden of buying much of the tamiflu from the

> government to individuals, and it would also mean that the medicine would be

> in the hands of the public when a pandemic began.

>

> Worries that the public isn't responsible enough to keep some Tamiflu in

> their sock drawer for a rainy day are misplaced. PSA's urging people not

> to use it unless a pandemic has erupted could be run on radio and TV

> stations, and would likely be very effective.

>

> People aren't as dumb as their governments like to believe.

>

> Could it all be for naught? Could Tamiflu end up being useless in the face

> of a pandemic?

>

> I suppose so. It's a gamble.

>

> But right now, we don't have a lot of options. We either fight using the

> tools we have, or we accept whatever a pandemic throws at us.

>

> posted by FLA_MEDIC @ 6:01 AM 0 comments

>

> 0 Comments:

>

> Post a Comment

>

> << Home

>

> About Me Name: FLA_MEDIC Location: Central Florida, Florida, United States

>

> Paramedic, Computer software designer, Building contractor, Cruising sailor,

> Humorist. . . obviously unable to hold a job.

>

> View my complete profile

>

> Previous Posts

>

> Riau: Take 3

> Update: 5 Suspected H5N1 Patients Test Negative

> A Possible Cluster In Riau?

> Nabarro Warns Of Zoonotic Threats

> Meanwhile Cholera Spreads In Vietnam

> Vietnam: 6th Province Reports H5N1

> Video : Utah Pandemic Flu Commercial # 1236 ...

> Indonesia Demands Return Of Bird Flu Samples

> Details On Latest Riau Death

> 24 Hours Later

>

> Trends

>

> By watching login trends we may detect areas of growing interest in H5N1

> around the world. Map start date is Apr. 18th 2007

>

> ________________________________

>

November 12, 2007

I totally agree with you Atie!. This article was to show, just how uninformed everyone is. They don't have enought for everyone (even if it did work without diastrous side effects). They don't have pediatric strengths. They don't know how much to give. And then there is the virus becoming resistant.Here is a clip from the article.So, Tamiflu isn't a panacea. And there is a risk that once it is put into play combating a pandemic, overuse could drive the virus to become resistant, rendering the remainder of the stockpile pretty much useless.

I am glad you spoke up. I never take the flu vaccines and I do try to talk my family out of them. Keep your immune systems up, eat healthy, exercise, get your rest, and you probably won't get a flu. And if you do, there are tonics in the files that work.

Please everyone, if you read any pertinent articles to healing, even if it's like the one I posted, that shows the down side of a product, share. Thanks Atie. Blessings, Joy

----- Original Message -----

From: atie vande plasse

Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 6:48 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Emailing: how-much-tamiflu-is-enough.htm

do not use tamifue, period. Let the fever run ts course, the tamifluwill interfere, you think you are better, but inside of you the virusbuilds up, than you get sick, your lungs fill with water or fluid andno way you survive.I think I got this expained via fourwinds10, or another webside(dutchone) but it might be, I cannot pull up the article as it is oneanother computer I can no longer access. Please do not use tamiflu, orany fever reducing drug if you really get the (avian)flu, AtiesterOn Nov 11, 2007 7:20 PM, Joyce Hudson <bjoyful@...> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>> Avian Flu Diary>> This blog will be my attempt to chronicle the Avian Flu threat. As a former> paramedic, I was heavily involved in the public Health Response to the> `Swine Flu' threat of the 1970's. All essays are copyright©2006-2007 by> the author but may be reprinted with attribution. All opinions expressed are> my own, and should not be taken as medical advice or recommendations by the> reader.>>>> Sunday, November 11, 2007>> How Much Tamiflu Is Enough?>>>>>>>> #1243>>>>>> Today's story out of the UK indicates that their Pandemic Influenza> Scientific Advisory Group is urging the government to triple their stockpile> of Tamiflu (oseltamavir).>>>> They believe that coverage for 75% of their population is essential if they> are to "exert reasonable control over the scale and severity of the national> outbreak">>>> First the story, then a discussion.>>>>>>>>>> 'Too few jabs' to fight flu epidemic>>>> Last Updated: 2:44am GMT 11/11/2007>>>> Stockpiles of drugs to fight a flu pandemic must be increased if the death> toll from an outbreak of the virus is to be minimised, senior government> advisers have warned>>>> The latest research by the Pandemic Influenza Scientific Advisory Group> claims that the number of antiviral doses held by the Government must be> tripled if a flu pandemic is to be effectively controlled.>>>> The current stockpile of 14.6 million courses of the antiviral drug Tamiflu> covers 25 per cent of the population.>>>> However, the group warned that "under no circumstances" would it be possible> to limit effectively the number of cases and deaths with the existing> stocks.>>>> It said there were not enough doses available to give drugs to family> members of an infected patient, making it hard to stop an outbreak spreading> once it gained hold.>>>> Instead, the scientists recommend boosting the stockpile to cover more than> 75 per cent of the population.>>>> Such a move would allow doctors to "exert reasonable control over the scale> and severity of the national outbreak".>>>>>> Last month, in a blog called How (not) To Break Bad News I recounted the> hoary story of the English gentleman calling home to his butler, to find> that his dog had died. I equated that slow motion dispensing of bad news> to the way information about a pandemic is released.>>>> By drips and drabs.>>>> Here we have another drip. Although, not an unexpected one.>>>> Conventional wisdom over the past couple of years has stated that 25%> coverage of the population with Tamiflu would be sufficient. We are also> told that a 10-pill course of Tamiflu is all that is required. Both of> these assumptions have come under fire in the past, and are likely to> continue to do so.>>>> I suspect these original estimates were based more on what officials thought> they could `sell' to their respective governments, more than on logic and> science. Budgets are tight, and spending money to thwart a pandemic that> might not happen anytime soon is politically risky.>>>> Two years ago, the 10-pill course for 25% of the population may have been> seen as about as much as pandemic planners could hope for. Better to get> that, than ask for 3 times that much, and get turned down flat.>>>> But we now know that the 10 pill course of Tamiflu is probably insufficient.> And estimates of the attack rate, the percentage of people who are sickened> in a pandemic, have escalated over the past couple of years, going from a> conservative 25% to speculation that 50% or more of the population may be> susceptible.>>>>>> Right now patients are routinely given more than the 2 pills a day for 5> days (10 pill course) of Tamiflu, and still, many of them die. There are> trials underway looking at whether a `double the dose for double the> duration' will improve survival.>>>> In other words, instead of 10 pills, a course would require 40 pills.>>>> In a country like Britain, one that already has enough tamiflu at the lower> dose to treat 25% of their population, an increase in the dose to 40 pills> would reduce their coverage to roughly 6%.>>>> The United States, which currently only has enough Tamiflu on hand to treat> about 15% of the nation (at the lower dose), would be down to only enough> for 4% at the higher dose.>>>> Of course, we don't know if the higher doses will improve patient outcomes.> Early data suggests that it might, but no controlled studies have been> completed.>>>> And this only figures treating people already infected. It provides nothing> for prophylaxis.>>>> But let's use the 10 pill course for now, even if it may prove woefully> inadequate in the future. The United States, which after two years is> still a year away from achieving a 25% stockpile, would need another 160> million courses of the medicine under these guidelines. The UK, another 30> million Courses.>>>> Even at the heavily discounted price governments pay for the stuff, this is> hardly chump change. We are talking billions of dollars to purchase, and> it has a limited shelf life. Then there are storage costs, distribution> costs during a crisis, and some real problems with the dosing being> purchased.>>>> Almost all of the Tamiflu purchased by the United States has been in the> form of 75mg capsules, used for the Adult dose. Out of 50 million courses,> reportedly only 100,000 are in the pediatric liquid form. Since we are> stockpiling for a disease that strikes the young, buying 99% of our Tamiflu> in adult formulation doesn't make a lot of sense.>>>> And for children under the age of 1 year old, Tamiflu is an unapproved> drug.>>>> There are concerns that Tamiflu may cross the immature blood brain barrier> in infants, and cause brain damage. Additionally there are reports that> children and teenagers, mostly in japan, have on rare occasions experienced> neuro-psychiatric side effects while on Tamiflu, resulting in a small number> of patients attempting suicide.>>>> There are studies ongoing, and expected to run into 2009, testing the safety> of Tamiflu for infants. Roche labs is said to be investigating the reports> of side effects in teenagers.>>>> So, Tamiflu isn't a panacea. And there is a risk that once it is put into> play combating a pandemic, overuse could drive the virus to become> resistant, rendering the remainder of the stockpile pretty much useless.>>>> Buying more Tamiflu is, admittedly, a risk.>>>> But right now, it is the only game in town. Without a vaccine, antivirals> are our best weapon against influenza. We either have them, or we are> reduced to NPI's (Non-pharmaceutical Interventions) to limit the spread of> the disease.>>>> The government obviously needs to stockpile more pediatric doses of Tamiflu.> The idea that we only have enough for 100,000 children is ludicrous. There> are 40 million children under the age of 10 in the United States. If only> 25% are sickened (a low estimate), then we'd need 2.5 million courses.>>>> Governments, I'm sure, are going to be reluctant to spend billions of> dollars to stockpile more Tamiflu. And by looking at the facts, tripling> the number of doses may not be enough. A 75% coverage with an inadequate> dose is better than a 25% coverage, but it doesn't get the job done. If> the 40 pill course is eventually adopted, that 75% coverage drops to 19%.>>>> While more stockpiling is needed, at the same time we should enable our> citizens to buy Tamiflu, at a discount and without a Rx, to keep on hand in> their homes.>>>> Right now, the price of Tamiflu is ridiculously high. A 10-pill course,> retail, runs as much as $100. The government buys that same course for a> fraction of that cost. Roche could probably lower the price to the public> by 70% and still make a profit.>>>> Doctors have been reluctant to write scripts to patients who want to have> tamiflu on hand because the government has warned them not to. They wanted> first dibs on the existing supply. We should remove that restriction, or> better yet, make Tamiflu available over-the-counter.>>>> Millions of American families would probably buy enough tamiflu for> themselves if the price were reasonable, and the government was recommending> it. That would move the burden of buying much of the tamiflu from the> government to individuals, and it would also mean that the medicine would be> in the hands of the public when a pandemic began.>>>> Worries that the public isn't responsible enough to keep some Tamiflu in> their sock drawer for a rainy day are misplaced. PSA's urging people not> to use it unless a pandemic has erupted could be run on radio and TV> stations, and would likely be very effective.>>>>>> People aren't as dumb as their governments like to believe.>>>>>> Could it all be for naught? Could Tamiflu end up being useless in the face> of a pandemic?>>>> I suppose so. It's a gamble.>>>> But right now, we don't have a lot of options. We either fight using the> tools we have, or we accept whatever a pandemic throws at us.>>>>> posted by FLA_MEDIC @ 6:01 AM 0 comments>> 0 Comments:>> Post a Comment>> << Home>>> About Me Name: FLA_MEDIC Location: Central Florida, Florida, United States>> Paramedic, Computer software designer, Building contractor, Cruising sailor,> Humorist. . . obviously unable to hold a job.>> View my complete profile>>>> Previous Posts>> Riau: Take 3> Update: 5 Suspected H5N1 Patients Test Negative> A Possible Cluster In Riau?> Nabarro Warns Of Zoonotic Threats> Meanwhile Cholera Spreads In Vietnam> Vietnam: 6th Province Reports H5N1> Video : Utah Pandemic Flu Commercial # 1236 ...> Indonesia Demands Return Of Bird Flu Samples> Details On Latest Riau Death> 24 Hours Later>>>>> Trends>>> By watching login trends we may detect areas of growing interest in H5N1> around the world. Map start date is Apr. 18th 2007>>>>>>> ________________________________>>>

November 12, 2007

that is hog wash. it is imperative that you bring down any high fever because high out of control fevers can cause BRAIN DAMAGE. at 104+ your brain starts to die!

Tamiflu only works if you take it within the first 3 days following the onset of symptoms. all it does is help lessen the length of the illness. it aids the body in helping to fight of the flu.

if you want correct info go to the CDC website or NIH....

----- Original Message -----

From: atie vande plasse

Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:48 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Emailing: how-much-tamiflu-is-enough.htm

do not use tamifue, period. Let the fever run ts course, the tamifluwill interfere, you think you are better, but inside of you the virusbuilds up, than you get sick, your lungs fill with water or fluid andno way you survive.I think I got this expained via fourwinds10, or another webside(dutchone) but it might be, I cannot pull up the article as it is oneanother computer I can no longer access. Please do not use tamiflu, orany fever reducing drug if you really get the (avian)flu, AtiesterOn Nov 11, 2007 7:20 PM, Joyce Hudson <bjoyfuliglou> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>> Avian Flu Diary>> This blog will be my attempt to chronicle the Avian Flu threat. As a former> paramedic, I was heavily involved in the public Health Response to the> `Swine Flu' threat of the 1970's. All essays are copyright©2006-2007 by> the author but may be reprinted with attribution. All opinions expressed are> my own, and should not be taken as medical advice or recommendations by the> reader.>>>> Sunday, November 11, 2007>> How Much Tamiflu Is Enough?>>>>>>>> #1243>>>>>> Today's story out of the UK indicates that their Pandemic Influenza> Scientific Advisory Group is urging the government to triple their stockpile> of Tamiflu (oseltamavir).>>>> They believe that coverage for 75% of their population is essential if they> are to "exert reasonable control over the scale and severity of the national> outbreak">>>> First the story, then a discussion.>>>>>>>>>> 'Too few jabs' to fight flu epidemic>>>> Last Updated: 2:44am GMT 11/11/2007>>>> Stockpiles of drugs to fight a flu pandemic must be increased if the death> toll from an outbreak of the virus is to be minimised, senior government> advisers have warned>>>> The latest research by the Pandemic Influenza Scientific Advisory Group> claims that the number of antiviral doses held by the Government must be> tripled if a flu pandemic is to be effectively controlled.>>>> The current stockpile of 14.6 million courses of the antiviral drug Tamiflu> covers 25 per cent of the population.>>>> However, the group warned that "under no circumstances" would it be possible> to limit effectively the number of cases and deaths with the existing> stocks.>>>> It said there were not enough doses available to give drugs to family> members of an infected patient, making it hard to stop an outbreak spreading> once it gained hold.>>>> Instead, the scientists recommend boosting the stockpile to cover more than> 75 per cent of the population.>>>> Such a move would allow doctors to "exert reasonable control over the scale> and severity of the national outbreak".>>>>>> Last month, in a blog called How (not) To Break Bad News I recounted the> hoary story of the English gentleman calling home to his butler, to find> that his dog had died. I equated that slow motion dispensing of bad news> to the way information about a pandemic is released.>>>> By drips and drabs.>>>> Here we have another drip. Although, not an unexpected one.>>>> Conventional wisdom over the past couple of years has stated that 25%> coverage of the population with Tamiflu would be sufficient. We are also> told that a 10-pill course of Tamiflu is all that is required. Both of> these assumptions have come under fire in the past, and are likely to> continue to do so.>>>> I suspect these original estimates were based more on what officials thought> they could `sell' to their respective governments, more than on logic and> science. Budgets are tight, and spending money to thwart a pandemic that> might not happen anytime soon is politically risky.>>>> Two years ago, the 10-pill course for 25% of the population may have been> seen as about as much as pandemic planners could hope for. Better to get> that, than ask for 3 times that much, and get turned down flat.>>>> But we now know that the 10 pill course of Tamiflu is probably insufficient.> And estimates of the attack rate, the percentage of people who are sickened> in a pandemic, have escalated over the past couple of years, going from a> conservative 25% to speculation that 50% or more of the population may be> susceptible.>>>>>> Right now patients are routinely given more than the 2 pills a day for 5> days (10 pill course) of Tamiflu, and still, many of them die. There are> trials underway looking at whether a `double the dose for double the> duration' will improve survival.>>>> In other words, instead of 10 pills, a course would require 40 pills.>>>> In a country like Britain, one that already has enough tamiflu at the lower> dose to treat 25% of their population, an increase in the dose to 40 pills> would reduce their coverage to roughly 6%.>>>> The United States, which currently only has enough Tamiflu on hand to treat> about 15% of the nation (at the lower dose), would be down to only enough> for 4% at the higher dose.>>>> Of course, we don't know if the higher doses will improve patient outcomes.> Early data suggests that it might, but no controlled studies have been> completed.>>>> And this only figures treating people already infected. It provides nothing> for prophylaxis.>>>> But let's use the 10 pill course for now, even if it may prove woefully> inadequate in the future. The United States, which after two years is> still a year away from achieving a 25% stockpile, would need another 160> million courses of the medicine under these guidelines. The UK, another 30> million Courses.>>>> Even at the heavily discounted price governments pay for the stuff, this is> hardly chump change. We are talking billions of dollars to purchase, and> it has a limited shelf life. Then there are storage costs, distribution> costs during a crisis, and some real problems with the dosing being> purchased.>>>> Almost all of the Tamiflu purchased by the United States has been in the> form of 75mg capsules, used for the Adult dose. Out of 50 million courses,> reportedly only 100,000 are in the pediatric liquid form. Since we are> stockpiling for a disease that strikes the young, buying 99% of our Tamiflu> in adult formulation doesn't make a lot of sense.>>>> And for children under the age of 1 year old, Tamiflu is an unapproved> drug.>>>> There are concerns that Tamiflu may cross the immature blood brain barrier> in infants, and cause brain damage. Additionally there are reports that> children and teenagers, mostly in japan, have on rare occasions experienced> neuro-psychiatric side effects while on Tamiflu, resulting in a small number> of patients attempting suicide.>>>> There are studies ongoing, and expected to run into 2009, testing the safety> of Tamiflu for infants. Roche labs is said to be investigating the reports> of side effects in teenagers.>>>> So, Tamiflu isn't a panacea. And there is a risk that once it is put into> play combating a pandemic, overuse could drive the virus to become> resistant, rendering the remainder of the stockpile pretty much useless.>>>> Buying more Tamiflu is, admittedly, a risk.>>>> But right now, it is the only game in town. Without a vaccine, antivirals> are our best weapon against influenza. We either have them, or we are> reduced to NPI's (Non-pharmaceutical Interventions) to limit the spread of> the disease.>>>> The government obviously needs to stockpile more pediatric doses of Tamiflu.> The idea that we only have enough for 100,000 children is ludicrous. There> are 40 million children under the age of 10 in the United States. If only> 25% are sickened (a low estimate), then we'd need 2.5 million courses.>>>> Governments, I'm sure, are going to be reluctant to spend billions of> dollars to stockpile more Tamiflu. And by looking at the facts, tripling> the number of doses may not be enough. A 75% coverage with an inadequate> dose is better than a 25% coverage, but it doesn't get the job done. If> the 40 pill course is eventually adopted, that 75% coverage drops to 19%.>>>> While more stockpiling is needed, at the same time we should enable our> citizens to buy Tamiflu, at a discount and without a Rx, to keep on hand in> their homes.>>>> Right now, the price of Tamiflu is ridiculously high. A 10-pill course,> retail, runs as much as $100. The government buys that same course for a> fraction of that cost. Roche could probably lower the price to the public> by 70% and still make a profit.>>>> Doctors have been reluctant to write scripts to patients who want to have> tamiflu on hand because the government has warned them not to. They wanted> first dibs on the existing supply. We should remove that restriction, or> better yet, make Tamiflu available over-the-counter.>>>> Millions of American families would probably buy enough tamiflu for> themselves if the price were reasonable, and the government was recommending> it. That would move the burden of buying much of the tamiflu from the> government to individuals, and it would also mean that the medicine would be> in the hands of the public when a pandemic began.>>>> Worries that the public isn't responsible enough to keep some Tamiflu in> their sock drawer for a rainy day are misplaced. PSA's urging people not> to use it unless a pandemic has erupted could be run on radio and TV> stations, and would likely be very effective.>>>>>> People aren't as dumb as their governments like to believe.>>>>>> Could it all be for naught? Could Tamiflu end up being useless in the face> of a pandemic?>>>> I suppose so. It's a gamble.>>>> But right now, we don't have a lot of options. We either fight using the> tools we have, or we accept whatever a pandemic throws at us.>>>>> posted by FLA_MEDIC @ 6:01 AM 0 comments>> 0 Comments:>> Post a Comment>> << Home>>> About Me Name: FLA_MEDIC Location: Central Florida, Florida, United States>> Paramedic, Computer software designer, Building contractor, Cruising sailor,> Humorist. . . obviously unable to hold a job.>> View my complete profile>>>> Previous Posts>> Riau: Take 3> Update: 5 Suspected H5N1 Patients Test Negative> A Possible Cluster In Riau?> Nabarro Warns Of Zoonotic Threats> Meanwhile Cholera Spreads In Vietnam> Vietnam: 6th Province Reports H5N1> Video : Utah Pandemic Flu Commercial # 1236 ...> Indonesia Demands Return Of Bird Flu Samples> Details On Latest Riau Death> 24 Hours Later>>>>> Trends>>> By watching login trends we may detect areas of growing interest in H5N1> around the world. Map start date is Apr. 18th 2007>>>>>>> ________________________________>>>

November 12, 2007

Nancie, it's not hogwash to all. Yes, all that you say about the fever, is true. But there are other ways. I know Allopathic medicine is your career, but remember Be Polite. No one person or association knows it all. There are Naturopaths, and other healing modalities that can handle illnesses with success.

Nancie, not all people are willing to risk their bodies to other problems, when the long term is unknown. Yes, maybe, some people will escape the side effects, but I would prefer to trust in natural ways, instead of the toxicity of too many of the pharmaceuticals. It's why we have this group, to share, to learn, and determine what is best for ourselves, and not what we are told to do. Now anyone can type in side effects of a drug on Google. So be it.

Here are some of the side effects of Tamiflu.

Body as a Whole: Swelling of the face or tongue, allergy, anaphylactic/anaphylactoid reactions.

Dermatologic: Dermatitis, rash, eczema, urticaria, erythema multiforme, s- Syndrome, toxic epidermal necrolysis (see PRECAUTIONS)

Digestive: Hepatitis, liver function tests abnormal

Cardiac: Arrhythmia

Neurologic: Seizure, confusion

Metabolic: Aggravation of diabetes

Side effects were aches and pains, rhinorrhea, dyspepsia and upper respiratory tract infections. Also, nausea, vomiting, bronchitis, insomnia, and vertigo. Abdominal pain, dizziness, headaches, cough, insomnia, vertigo, and fatigue were more effects.

----- Original Message -----

From: Nancie Barnett

Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 12:41 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Emailing: how-much-tamiflu-is-enough.htm

that is hog wash. it is imperative that you bring down any high fever because high out of control fevers can cause BRAIN DAMAGE. at 104+ your brain starts to die!

Tamiflu only works if you take it within the first 3 days following the onset of symptoms. all it does is help lessen the length of the illness. it aids the body in helping to fight of the flu.

if you want correct info go to the CDC website or NIH....

----- Original Message -----

From: atie vande plasse

Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:48 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Emailing: how-much-tamiflu-is-enough.htm

do not use tamifue, period. Let the fever run ts course, the tamifluwill interfere, you think you are better, but inside of you the virusbuilds up, than you get sick, your lungs fill with water or fluid andno way you survive.I think I got this expained via fourwinds10, or another webside(dutchone) but it might be, I cannot pull up the article as it is oneanother computer I can no longer access. Please do not use tamiflu, orany fever reducing drug if you really get the (avian)flu, AtiesterOn Nov 11, 2007 7:20 PM, Joyce Hudson <bjoyfuliglou> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>> Avian Flu Diary>> This blog will be my attempt to chronicle the Avian Flu threat. As a former> paramedic, I was heavily involved in the public Health Response to the> `Swine Flu' threat of the 1970's. All essays are copyright©2006-2007 by> the author but may be reprinted with attribution. All opinions expressed are> my own, and should not be taken as medical advice or recommendations by the> reader.>>>> Sunday, November 11, 2007>> How Much Tamiflu Is Enough?>>>>>>>> #1243>>>>>> Today's story out of the UK indicates that their Pandemic Influenza> Scientific Advisory Group is urging the government to triple their stockpile> of Tamiflu (oseltamavir).>>>> They believe that coverage for 75% of their population is essential if they> are to "exert reasonable control over the scale and severity of the national> outbreak">>>> First the story, then a discussion.>>>>>>>>>> 'Too few jabs' to fight flu epidemic>>>> Last Updated: 2:44am GMT 11/11/2007>>>> Stockpiles of drugs to fight a flu pandemic must be increased if the death> toll from an outbreak of the virus is to be minimised, senior government> advisers have warned>>>> The latest research by the Pandemic Influenza Scientific Advisory Group> claims that the number of antiviral doses held by the Government must be> tripled if a flu pandemic is to be effectively controlled.>>>> The current stockpile of 14.6 million courses of the antiviral drug Tamiflu> covers 25 per cent of the population.>>>> However, the group warned that "under no circumstances" would it be possible> to limit effectively the number of cases and deaths with the existing> stocks.>>>> It said there were not enough doses available to give drugs to family> members of an infected patient, making it hard to stop an outbreak spreading> once it gained hold.>>>> Instead, the scientists recommend boosting the stockpile to cover more than> 75 per cent of the population.>>>> Such a move would allow doctors to "exert reasonable control over the scale> and severity of the national outbreak".>>>>>> Last month, in a blog called How (not) To Break Bad News I recounted the> hoary story of the English gentleman calling home to his butler, to find> that his dog had died. I equated that slow motion dispensing of bad news> to the way information about a pandemic is released.>>>> By drips and drabs.>>>> Here we have another drip. Although, not an unexpected one.>>>> Conventional wisdom over the past couple of years has stated that 25%> coverage of the population with Tamiflu would be sufficient. We are also> told that a 10-pill course of Tamiflu is all that is required. Both of> these assumptions have come under fire in the past, and are likely to> continue to do so.>>>> I suspect these original estimates were based more on what officials thought> they could `sell' to their respective governments, more than on logic and> science. Budgets are tight, and spending money to thwart a pandemic that> might not happen anytime soon is politically risky.>>>> Two years ago, the 10-pill course for 25% of the population may have been> seen as about as much as pandemic planners could hope for. Better to get> that, than ask for 3 times that much, and get turned down flat.>>>> But we now know that the 10 pill course of Tamiflu is probably insufficient.> And estimates of the attack rate, the percentage of people who are sickened> in a pandemic, have escalated over the past couple of years, going from a> conservative 25% to speculation that 50% or more of the population may be> susceptible.>>>>>> Right now patients are routinely given more than the 2 pills a day for 5> days (10 pill course) of Tamiflu, and still, many of them die. There are> trials underway looking at whether a `double the dose for double the> duration' will improve survival.>>>> In other words, instead of 10 pills, a course would require 40 pills.>>>> In a country like Britain, one that already has enough tamiflu at the lower> dose to treat 25% of their population, an increase in the dose to 40 pills> would reduce their coverage to roughly 6%.>>>> The United States, which currently only has enough Tamiflu on hand to treat> about 15% of the nation (at the lower dose), would be down to only enough> for 4% at the higher dose.>>>> Of course, we don't know if the higher doses will improve patient outcomes.> Early data suggests that it might, but no controlled studies have been> completed.>>>> And this only figures treating people already infected. It provides nothing> for prophylaxis.>>>> But let's use the 10 pill course for now, even if it may prove woefully> inadequate in the future. The United States, which after two years is> still a year away from achieving a 25% stockpile, would need another 160> million courses of the medicine under these guidelines. The UK, another 30> million Courses.>>>> Even at the heavily discounted price governments pay for the stuff, this is> hardly chump change. We are talking billions of dollars to purchase, and> it has a limited shelf life. Then there are storage costs, distribution> costs during a crisis, and some real problems with the dosing being> purchased.>>>> Almost all of the Tamiflu purchased by the United States has been in the> form of 75mg capsules, used for the Adult dose. Out of 50 million courses,> reportedly only 100,000 are in the pediatric liquid form. Since we are> stockpiling for a disease that strikes the young, buying 99% of our Tamiflu> in adult formulation doesn't make a lot of sense.>>>> And for children under the age of 1 year old, Tamiflu is an unapproved> drug.>>>> There are concerns that Tamiflu may cross the immature blood brain barrier> in infants, and cause brain damage. Additionally there are reports that> children and teenagers, mostly in japan, have on rare occasions experienced> neuro-psychiatric side effects while on Tamiflu, resulting in a small number> of patients attempting suicide.>>>> There are studies ongoing, and expected to run into 2009, testing the safety> of Tamiflu for infants. Roche labs is said to be investigating the reports> of side effects in teenagers.>>>> So, Tamiflu isn't a panacea. And there is a risk that once it is put into> play combating a pandemic, overuse could drive the virus to become> resistant, rendering the remainder of the stockpile pretty much useless.>>>> Buying more Tamiflu is, admittedly, a risk.>>>> But right now, it is the only game in town. Without a vaccine, antivirals> are our best weapon against influenza. We either have them, or we are> reduced to NPI's (Non-pharmaceutical Interventions) to limit the spread of> the disease.>>>> The government obviously needs to stockpile more pediatric doses of Tamiflu.> The idea that we only have enough for 100,000 children is ludicrous. There> are 40 million children under the age of 10 in the United States. If only> 25% are sickened (a low estimate), then we'd need 2.5 million courses.>>>> Governments, I'm sure, are going to be reluctant to spend billions of> dollars to stockpile more Tamiflu. And by looking at the facts, tripling> the number of doses may not be enough. A 75% coverage with an inadequate> dose is better than a 25% coverage, but it doesn't get the job done. If> the 40 pill course is eventually adopted, that 75% coverage drops to 19%.>>>> While more stockpiling is needed, at the same time we should enable our> citizens to buy Tamiflu, at a discount and without a Rx, to keep on hand in> their homes.>>>> Right now, the price of Tamiflu is ridiculously high. A 10-pill course,> retail, runs as much as $100. The government buys that same course for a> fraction of that cost. Roche could probably lower the price to the public> by 70% and still make a profit.>>>> Doctors have been reluctant to write scripts to patients who want to have> tamiflu on hand because the government has warned them not to. They wanted> first dibs on the existing supply. We should remove that restriction, or> better yet, make Tamiflu available over-the-counter.>>>> Millions of American families would probably buy enough tamiflu for> themselves if the price were reasonable, and the government was recommending> it. That would move the burden of buying much of the tamiflu from the> government to individuals, and it would also mean that the medicine would be> in the hands of the public when a pandemic began.>>>> Worries that the public isn't responsible enough to keep some Tamiflu in> their sock drawer for a rainy day are misplaced. PSA's urging people not> to use it unless a pandemic has erupted could be run on radio and TV> stations, and would likely be very effective.>>>>>> People aren't as dumb as their governments like to believe.>>>>>> Could it all be for naught? Could Tamiflu end up being useless in the face> of a pandemic?>>>> I suppose so. It's a gamble.>>>> But right now, we don't have a lot of options. We either fight using the> tools we have, or we accept whatever a pandemic throws at us.>>>>> posted by FLA_MEDIC @ 6:01 AM 0 comments>> 0 Comments:>> Post a Comment>> << Home>>> About Me Name: FLA_MEDIC Location: Central Florida, Florida, United States>> Paramedic, Computer software designer, Building contractor, Cruising sailor,> Humorist. . . obviously unable to hold a job.>> View my complete profile>>>> Previous Posts>> Riau: Take 3> Update: 5 Suspected H5N1 Patients Test Negative> A Possible Cluster In Riau?> Nabarro Warns Of Zoonotic Threats> Meanwhile Cholera Spreads In Vietnam> Vietnam: 6th Province Reports H5N1> Video : Utah Pandemic Flu Commercial # 1236 ...> Indonesia Demands Return Of Bird Flu Samples> Details On Latest Riau Death> 24 Hours Later>>>>> Trends>>> By watching login trends we may detect areas of growing interest in H5N1> around the world. Map start date is Apr. 18th 2007>>>>>>> ________________________________>>>

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.29/1124 - Release Date: 11/11/2007 10:12 AM

November 12, 2007

joyce-

ok sorry about the hog wash remark.

you allowed me to post rebuttals I am most definitely rebutting.

you missed my point. my MAIN point is that you never let a fever run wild otherwise you will kill the person. any fever over 104+ degrees will fry your brain. and it will KILL a child. whether you bring it down with aspirin, tylenol. herbs, etc is your choice!

as far as tmaiflu goes I don't care if one doesn't take it - I just CARE about the correct facts getting out there and not false rumors and down right lies. the drug does NOT cause pulmonary edema { lungs filling up with fluid} that is FALSE.

here it is from epocreates which is trusted by 1000's of medical providers everyday:

Drug

Tamifluoseltamivir

Adverse Reactions

Serious Reactions delirium self-injury anaphylaxis (rare) s- syndrome (rare) toxic epidermal necrolysis (rare) erythema multiforme (rare)

Common Reactions nausea vomiting diarrhea abdominal pain headache

as far as the CDC and NIH goes- they are trusted world wide by many alternative medicine professionals. I personally know 100 alternative medicine providers that use both organizations regularly.

BTW I don't just practice allopathic medicine- I also practice complementary medicine. I thought that would be evident by now with my alternative medicine posts.

----- Original Message -----

From: Joyce Hudson

Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 5:24 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Emailing: how-much-tamiflu-is-enough.htm

Nancie, it's not hogwash to all. Yes, all that you say about the fever, is true. But there are other ways. I know Allopathic medicine is your career, but remember Be Polite. No one person or association knows it all. There are Naturopaths, and other healing modalities that can handle illnesses with success.

Nancie, not all people are willing to risk their bodies to other problems, when the long term is unknown. Yes, maybe, some people will escape the side effects, but I would prefer to trust in natural ways, instead of the toxicity of too many of the pharmaceuticals. It's why we have this group, to share, to learn, and determine what is best for ourselves, and not what we are told to do. Now anyone can type in side effects of a drug on Google. So be it.

Here are some of the side effects of Tamiflu.

Body as a Whole: Swelling of the face or tongue, allergy, anaphylactic/anaphylactoid reactions.

Dermatologic: Dermatitis, rash, eczema, urticaria, erythema multiforme, s- Syndrome, toxic epidermal necrolysis (see PRECAUTIONS)

Digestive: Hepatitis, liver function tests abnormal

Cardiac: Arrhythmia

Neurologic: Seizure, confusion

Metabolic: Aggravation of diabetes

Side effects were aches and pains, rhinorrhea, dyspepsia and upper respiratory tract infections. Also, nausea, vomiting, bronchitis, insomnia, and vertigo. Abdominal pain, dizziness, headaches, cough, insomnia, vertigo, and fatigue were more effects.

----- Original Message -----

From: Nancie Barnett

Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 12:41 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Emailing: how-much-tamiflu-is-enough.htm

that is hog wash. it is imperative that you bring down any high fever because high out of control fevers can cause BRAIN DAMAGE. at 104+ your brain starts to die!

Tamiflu only works if you take it within the first 3 days following the onset of symptoms. all it does is help lessen the length of the illness. it aids the body in helping to fight of the flu.

if you want correct info go to the CDC website or NIH....

----- Original Message -----

From: atie vande plasse

Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:48 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Emailing: how-much-tamiflu-is-enough.htm

do not use tamifue, period. Let the fever run ts course, the tamifluwill interfere, you think you are better, but inside of you the virusbuilds up, than you get sick, your lungs fill with water or fluid andno way you survive.I think I got this expained via fourwinds10, or another webside(dutchone) but it might be, I cannot pull up the article as it is oneanother computer I can no longer access. Please do not use tamiflu, orany fever reducing drug if you really get the (avian)flu, AtiesterOn Nov 11, 2007 7:20 PM, Joyce Hudson <bjoyfuliglou> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>> Avian Flu Diary>> This blog will be my attempt to chronicle the Avian Flu threat. As a former> paramedic, I was heavily involved in the public Health Response to the> `Swine Flu' threat of the 1970's. All essays are copyright©2006-2007 by> the author but may be reprinted with attribution. All opinions expressed are> my own, and should not be taken as medical advice or recommendations by the> reader.>>>> Sunday, November 11, 2007>> How Much Tamiflu Is Enough?>>>>>>>> #1243>>>>>> Today's story out of the UK indicates that their Pandemic Influenza> Scientific Advisory Group is urging the government to triple their stockpile> of Tamiflu (oseltamavir).>>>> They believe that coverage for 75% of their population is essential if they> are to "exert reasonable control over the scale and severity of the national> outbreak">>>> First the story, then a discussion.>>>>>>>>>> 'Too few jabs' to fight flu epidemic>>>> Last Updated: 2:44am GMT 11/11/2007>>>> Stockpiles of drugs to fight a flu pandemic must be increased if the death> toll from an outbreak of the virus is to be minimised, senior government> advisers have warned>>>> The latest research by the Pandemic Influenza Scientific Advisory Group> claims that the number of antiviral doses held by the Government must be> tripled if a flu pandemic is to be effectively controlled.>>>> The current stockpile of 14.6 million courses of the antiviral drug Tamiflu> covers 25 per cent of the population.>>>> However, the group warned that "under no circumstances" would it be possible> to limit effectively the number of cases and deaths with the existing> stocks.>>>> It said there were not enough doses available to give drugs to family> members of an infected patient, making it hard to stop an outbreak spreading> once it gained hold.>>>> Instead, the scientists recommend boosting the stockpile to cover more than> 75 per cent of the population.>>>> Such a move would allow doctors to "exert reasonable control over the scale> and severity of the national outbreak".>>>>>> Last month, in a blog called How (not) To Break Bad News I recounted the> hoary story of the English gentleman calling home to his butler, to find> that his dog had died. I equated that slow motion dispensing of bad news> to the way information about a pandemic is released.>>>> By drips and drabs.>>>> Here we have another drip. Although, not an unexpected one.>>>> Conventional wisdom over the past couple of years has stated that 25%> coverage of the population with Tamiflu would be sufficient. We are also> told that a 10-pill course of Tamiflu is all that is required. Both of> these assumptions have come under fire in the past, and are likely to> continue to do so.>>>> I suspect these original estimates were based more on what officials thought> they could `sell' to their respective governments, more than on logic and> science. Budgets are tight, and spending money to thwart a pandemic that> might not happen anytime soon is politically risky.>>>> Two years ago, the 10-pill course for 25% of the population may have been> seen as about as much as pandemic planners could hope for. Better to get> that, than ask for 3 times that much, and get turned down flat.>>>> But we now know that the 10 pill course of Tamiflu is probably insufficient.> And estimates of the attack rate, the percentage of people who are sickened> in a pandemic, have escalated over the past couple of years, going from a> conservative 25% to speculation that 50% or more of the population may be> susceptible.>>>>>> Right now patients are routinely given more than the 2 pills a day for 5> days (10 pill course) of Tamiflu, and still, many of them die. There are> trials underway looking at whether a `double the dose for double the> duration' will improve survival.>>>> In other words, instead of 10 pills, a course would require 40 pills.>>>> In a country like Britain, one that already has enough tamiflu at the lower> dose to treat 25% of their population, an increase in the dose to 40 pills> would reduce their coverage to roughly 6%.>>>> The United States, which currently only has enough Tamiflu on hand to treat> about 15% of the nation (at the lower dose), would be down to only enough> for 4% at the higher dose.>>>> Of course, we don't know if the higher doses will improve patient outcomes.> Early data suggests that it might, but no controlled studies have been> completed.>>>> And this only figures treating people already infected. It provides nothing> for prophylaxis.>>>> But let's use the 10 pill course for now, even if it may prove woefully> inadequate in the future. The United States, which after two years is> still a year away from achieving a 25% stockpile, would need another 160> million courses of the medicine under these guidelines. The UK, another 30> million Courses.>>>> Even at the heavily discounted price governments pay for the stuff, this is> hardly chump change. We are talking billions of dollars to purchase, and> it has a limited shelf life. Then there are storage costs, distribution> costs during a crisis, and some real problems with the dosing being> purchased.>>>> Almost all of the Tamiflu purchased by the United States has been in the> form of 75mg capsules, used for the Adult dose. Out of 50 million courses,> reportedly only 100,000 are in the pediatric liquid form. Since we are> stockpiling for a disease that strikes the young, buying 99% of our Tamiflu> in adult formulation doesn't make a lot of sense.>>>> And for children under the age of 1 year old, Tamiflu is an unapproved> drug.>>>> There are concerns that Tamiflu may cross the immature blood brain barrier> in infants, and cause brain damage. Additionally there are reports that> children and teenagers, mostly in japan, have on rare occasions experienced> neuro-psychiatric side effects while on Tamiflu, resulting in a small number> of patients attempting suicide.>>>> There are studies ongoing, and expected to run into 2009, testing the safety> of Tamiflu for infants. Roche labs is said to be investigating the reports> of side effects in teenagers.>>>> So, Tamiflu isn't a panacea. And there is a risk that once it is put into> play combating a pandemic, overuse could drive the virus to become> resistant, rendering the remainder of the stockpile pretty much useless.>>>> Buying more Tamiflu is, admittedly, a risk.>>>> But right now, it is the only game in town. Without a vaccine, antivirals> are our best weapon against influenza. We either have them, or we are> reduced to NPI's (Non-pharmaceutical Interventions) to limit the spread of> the disease.>>>> The government obviously needs to stockpile more pediatric doses of Tamiflu.> The idea that we only have enough for 100,000 children is ludicrous. There> are 40 million children under the age of 10 in the United States. If only> 25% are sickened (a low estimate), then we'd need 2.5 million courses.>>>> Governments, I'm sure, are going to be reluctant to spend billions of> dollars to stockpile more Tamiflu. And by looking at the facts, tripling> the number of doses may not be enough. A 75% coverage with an inadequate> dose is better than a 25% coverage, but it doesn't get the job done. If> the 40 pill course is eventually adopted, that 75% coverage drops to 19%.>>>> While more stockpiling is needed, at the same time we should enable our> citizens to buy Tamiflu, at a discount and without a Rx, to keep on hand in> their homes.>>>> Right now, the price of Tamiflu is ridiculously high. A 10-pill course,> retail, runs as much as $100. The government buys that same course for a> fraction of that cost. Roche could probably lower the price to the public> by 70% and still make a profit.>>>> Doctors have been reluctant to write scripts to patients who want to have> tamiflu on hand because the government has warned them not to. They wanted> first dibs on the existing supply. We should remove that restriction, or> better yet, make Tamiflu available over-the-counter.>>>> Millions of American families would probably buy enough tamiflu for> themselves if the price were reasonable, and the government was recommending> it. That would move the burden of buying much of the tamiflu from the> government to individuals, and it would also mean that the medicine would be> in the hands of the public when a pandemic began.>>>> Worries that the public isn't responsible enough to keep some Tamiflu in> their sock drawer for a rainy day are misplaced. PSA's urging people not> to use it unless a pandemic has erupted could be run on radio and TV> stations, and would likely be very effective.>>>>>> People aren't as dumb as their governments like to believe.>>>>>> Could it all be for naught? Could Tamiflu end up being useless in the face> of a pandemic?>>>> I suppose so. It's a gamble.>>>> But right now, we don't have a lot of options. We either fight using the> tools we have, or we accept whatever a pandemic throws at us.>>>>> posted by FLA_MEDIC @ 6:01 AM 0 comments>> 0 Comments:>> Post a Comment>> << Home>>> About Me Name: FLA_MEDIC Location: Central Florida, Florida, United States>> Paramedic, Computer software designer, Building contractor, Cruising sailor,> Humorist. . . obviously unable to hold a job.>> View my complete profile>>>> Previous Posts>> Riau: Take 3> Update: 5 Suspected H5N1 Patients Test Negative> A Possible Cluster In Riau?> Nabarro Warns Of Zoonotic Threats> Meanwhile Cholera Spreads In Vietnam> Vietnam: 6th Province Reports H5N1> Video : Utah Pandemic Flu Commercial # 1236 ...> Indonesia Demands Return Of Bird Flu Samples> Details On Latest Riau Death> 24 Hours Later>>>>> Trends>>> By watching login trends we may detect areas of growing interest in H5N1> around the world. Map start date is Apr. 18th 2007>>>>>>> ________________________________>>>

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.29/1124 - Release Date: 11/11/2007 10:12 AM

November 12, 2007

Thank you Nancie. Yes, the hog wash remark was what I was concerned with. Even when we don't agree, we must always be polite. And yes, I like your rebuttals, if they are focused on the ailment and not opinions.

A mild fever shows that the body is fighting, but when it goes high, the body can no longer fight. Better to catch a fever before it goes too high.

And yes, I knew you also, practiced complementary medicine, but you become very emotional when in defense of allopathic medicine, so that makes me feel that allopathic medicine is your main interest. Complementary medicine is used in conjunction with Allopathic medicine. A lot of people do not trust Allopathic medicine anymore and for many reasons. They want to use strictly Alternative modalities. That is their right. And in many countries, Alternative healing is the norm, and these are not backward third countries. There are countries right now, who used to follow what the USA medical world did, but they are breaking away from following the USA. If you would like, I will see if I saved those articles and post them on the group. I, personally, think that the people of the USA has lost their way when it comes to pharmaceuticals. People are not listening to their bodies and are not keeping informed. They put politicians and others on a pedestal, where God should be. Just my opinion, though. :-)

Personally, I use Allopathic medicine for diagnosing (when I can't) and surgeries (such as hip replacement). I make sure my Dad sees his cardiologist, that's where we have been twice today, for a heart stress test. He had a quad bypass in 2001. Came through it better than the other nine patients. But that was because of the vitamins and herbs I had him on. I haven't been able to get him to see an Internal Medicine practitioner for years, for any ailments or a checkup. So I take care of him with herbs and nutrition. I did get him to go to the new Emergency Room, this summer when he woke up with his face drooping on one side. I feared a stroke. It was Bells Palsy. I even told him today, he needed a checkup. It fell on stubborn ears.

Nancie, yes, we would love to hear facts, but no emotion involved. :-) Blessings and Love, Joy

----- Original Message -----

From: Nancie Barnett

Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 3:11 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Emailing: how-much-tamiflu-is-enough.htm

joyce-

ok sorry about the hog wash remark.

you allowed me to post rebuttals I am most definitely rebutting.

you missed my point. my MAIN point is that you never let a fever run wild otherwise you will kill the person. any fever over 104+ degrees will fry your brain. and it will KILL a child. whether you bring it down with aspirin, tylenol. herbs, etc is your choice!

as far as tmaiflu goes I don't care if one doesn't take it - I just CARE about the correct facts getting out there and not false rumors and down right lies. the drug does NOT cause pulmonary edema { lungs filling up with fluid} that is FALSE.

here it is from epocreates which is trusted by 1000's of medical providers everyday:

Drug

Tamifluoseltamivir

Adverse Reactions

Serious Reactions delirium self-injury anaphylaxis (rare) s- syndrome (rare) toxic epidermal necrolysis (rare) erythema multiforme (rare)

Common Reactions nausea vomiting diarrhea abdominal pain headache

as far as the CDC and NIH goes- they are trusted world wide by many alternative medicine professionals. I personally know 100 alternative medicine providers that use both organizations regularly.

BTW I don't just practice allopathic medicine- I also practice complementary medicine. I thought that would be evident by now with my alternative medicine posts.

----- Original Message -----

From: Joyce Hudson

Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 5:24 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Emailing: how-much-tamiflu-is-enough.htm

Nancie, it's not hogwash to all. Yes, all that you say about the fever, is true. But there are other ways. I know Allopathic medicine is your career, but remember Be Polite. No one person or association knows it all. There are Naturopaths, and other healing modalities that can handle illnesses with success.

Nancie, not all people are willing to risk their bodies to other problems, when the long term is unknown. Yes, maybe, some people will escape the side effects, but I would prefer to trust in natural ways, instead of the toxicity of too many of the pharmaceuticals. It's why we have this group, to share, to learn, and determine what is best for ourselves, and not what we are told to do. Now anyone can type in side effects of a drug on Google. So be it.

Here are some of the side effects of Tamiflu.

Body as a Whole: Swelling of the face or tongue, allergy, anaphylactic/anaphylactoid reactions.

Dermatologic: Dermatitis, rash, eczema, urticaria, erythema multiforme, s- Syndrome, toxic epidermal necrolysis (see PRECAUTIONS)

Digestive: Hepatitis, liver function tests abnormal

Cardiac: Arrhythmia

Neurologic: Seizure, confusion

Metabolic: Aggravation of diabetes

Side effects were aches and pains, rhinorrhea, dyspepsia and upper respiratory tract infections. Also, nausea, vomiting, bronchitis, insomnia, and vertigo. Abdominal pain, dizziness, headaches, cough, insomnia, vertigo, and fatigue were more effects.

----- Original Message -----

From: Nancie Barnett

Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 12:41 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Emailing: how-much-tamiflu-is-enough.htm

that is hog wash. it is imperative that you bring down any high fever because high out of control fevers can cause BRAIN DAMAGE. at 104+ your brain starts to die!

Tamiflu only works if you take it within the first 3 days following the onset of symptoms. all it does is help lessen the length of the illness. it aids the body in helping to fight of the flu.

if you want correct info go to the CDC website or NIH....

----- Original Message -----

From: atie vande plasse

Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:48 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Emailing: how-much-tamiflu-is-enough.htm

do not use tamifue, period. Let the fever run ts course, the tamifluwill interfere, you think you are better, but inside of you the virusbuilds up, than you get sick, your lungs fill with water or fluid andno way you survive.I think I got this expained via fourwinds10, or another webside(dutchone) but it might be, I cannot pull up the article as it is oneanother computer I can no longer access. Please do not use tamiflu, orany fever reducing drug if you really get the (avian)flu, AtiesterOn Nov 11, 2007 7:20 PM, Joyce Hudson <bjoyfuliglou> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>> Avian Flu Diary>> This blog will be my attempt to chronicle the Avian Flu threat. As a former> paramedic, I was heavily involved in the public Health Response to the> `Swine Flu' threat of the 1970's. All essays are copyright©2006-2007 by> the author but may be reprinted with attribution. All opinions expressed are> my own, and should not be taken as medical advice or recommendations by the> reader.>>>> Sunday, November 11, 2007>> How Much Tamiflu Is Enough?>>>>>>>> #1243>>>>>> Today's story out of the UK indicates that their Pandemic Influenza> Scientific Advisory Group is urging the government to triple their stockpile> of Tamiflu (oseltamavir).>>>> They believe that coverage for 75% of their population is essential if they> are to "exert reasonable control over the scale and severity of the national> outbreak">>>> First the story, then a discussion.>>>>>>>>>> 'Too few jabs' to fight flu epidemic>>>> Last Updated: 2:44am GMT 11/11/2007>>>> Stockpiles of drugs to fight a flu pandemic must be increased if the death> toll from an outbreak of the virus is to be minimised, senior government> advisers have warned>>>> The latest research by the Pandemic Influenza Scientific Advisory Group> claims that the number of antiviral doses held by the Government must be> tripled if a flu pandemic is to be effectively controlled.>>>> The current stockpile of 14.6 million courses of the antiviral drug Tamiflu> covers 25 per cent of the population.>>>> However, the group warned that "under no circumstances" would it be possible> to limit effectively the number of cases and deaths with the existing> stocks.>>>> It said there were not enough doses available to give drugs to family> members of an infected patient, making it hard to stop an outbreak spreading> once it gained hold.>>>> Instead, the scientists recommend boosting the stockpile to cover more than> 75 per cent of the population.>>>> Such a move would allow doctors to "exert reasonable control over the scale> and severity of the national outbreak".>>>>>> Last month, in a blog called How (not) To Break Bad News I recounted the> hoary story of the English gentleman calling home to his butler, to find> that his dog had died. I equated that slow motion dispensing of bad news> to the way information about a pandemic is released.>>>> By drips and drabs.>>>> Here we have another drip. Although, not an unexpected one.>>>> Conventional wisdom over the past couple of years has stated that 25%> coverage of the population with Tamiflu would be sufficient. We are also> told that a 10-pill course of Tamiflu is all that is required. Both of> these assumptions have come under fire in the past, and are likely to> continue to do so.>>>> I suspect these original estimates were based more on what officials thought> they could `sell' to their respective governments, more than on logic and> science. Budgets are tight, and spending money to thwart a pandemic that> might not happen anytime soon is politically risky.>>>> Two years ago, the 10-pill course for 25% of the population may have been> seen as about as much as pandemic planners could hope for. Better to get> that, than ask for 3 times that much, and get turned down flat.>>>> But we now know that the 10 pill course of Tamiflu is probably insufficient.> And estimates of the attack rate, the percentage of people who are sickened> in a pandemic, have escalated over the past couple of years, going from a> conservative 25% to speculation that 50% or more of the population may be> susceptible.>>>>>> Right now patients are routinely given more than the 2 pills a day for 5> days (10 pill course) of Tamiflu, and still, many of them die. There are> trials underway looking at whether a `double the dose for double the> duration' will improve survival.>>>> In other words, instead of 10 pills, a course would require 40 pills.>>>> In a country like Britain, one that already has enough tamiflu at the lower> dose to treat 25% of their population, an increase in the dose to 40 pills> would reduce their coverage to roughly 6%.>>>> The United States, which currently only has enough Tamiflu on hand to treat> about 15% of the nation (at the lower dose), would be down to only enough> for 4% at the higher dose.>>>> Of course, we don't know if the higher doses will improve patient outcomes.> Early data suggests that it might, but no controlled studies have been> completed.>>>> And this only figures treating people already infected. It provides nothing> for prophylaxis.>>>> But let's use the 10 pill course for now, even if it may prove woefully> inadequate in the future. The United States, which after two years is> still a year away from achieving a 25% stockpile, would need another 160> million courses of the medicine under these guidelines. The UK, another 30> million Courses.>>>> Even at the heavily discounted price governments pay for the stuff, this is> hardly chump change. We are talking billions of dollars to purchase, and> it has a limited shelf life. Then there are storage costs, distribution> costs during a crisis, and some real problems with the dosing being> purchased.>>>> Almost all of the Tamiflu purchased by the United States has been in the> form of 75mg capsules, used for the Adult dose. Out of 50 million courses,> reportedly only 100,000 are in the pediatric liquid form. Since we are> stockpiling for a disease that strikes the young, buying 99% of our Tamiflu> in adult formulation doesn't make a lot of sense.>>>> And for children under the age of 1 year old, Tamiflu is an unapproved> drug.>>>> There are concerns that Tamiflu may cross the immature blood brain barrier> in infants, and cause brain damage. Additionally there are reports that> children and teenagers, mostly in japan, have on rare occasions experienced> neuro-psychiatric side effects while on Tamiflu, resulting in a small number> of patients attempting suicide.>>>> There are studies ongoing, and expected to run into 2009, testing the safety> of Tamiflu for infants. Roche labs is said to be investigating the reports> of side effects in teenagers.>>>> So, Tamiflu isn't a panacea. And there is a risk that once it is put into> play combating a pandemic, overuse could drive the virus to become> resistant, rendering the remainder of the stockpile pretty much useless.>>>> Buying more Tamiflu is, admittedly, a risk.>>>> But right now, it is the only game in town. Without a vaccine, antivirals> are our best weapon against influenza. We either have them, or we are> reduced to NPI's (Non-pharmaceutical Interventions) to limit the spread of> the disease.>>>> The government obviously needs to stockpile more pediatric doses of Tamiflu.> The idea that we only have enough for 100,000 children is ludicrous. There> are 40 million children under the age of 10 in the United States. If only> 25% are sickened (a low estimate), then we'd need 2.5 million courses.>>>> Governments, I'm sure, are going to be reluctant to spend billions of> dollars to stockpile more Tamiflu. And by looking at the facts, tripling> the number of doses may not be enough. A 75% coverage with an inadequate> dose is better than a 25% coverage, but it doesn't get the job done. If> the 40 pill course is eventually adopted, that 75% coverage drops to 19%.>>>> While more stockpiling is needed, at the same time we should enable our> citizens to buy Tamiflu, at a discount and without a Rx, to keep on hand in> their homes.>>>> Right now, the price of Tamiflu is ridiculously high. A 10-pill course,> retail, runs as much as $100. The government buys that same course for a> fraction of that cost. Roche could probably lower the price to the public> by 70% and still make a profit.>>>> Doctors have been reluctant to write scripts to patients who want to have> tamiflu on hand because the government has warned them not to. They wanted> first dibs on the existing supply. We should remove that restriction, or> better yet, make Tamiflu available over-the-counter.>>>> Millions of American families would probably buy enough tamiflu for> themselves if the price were reasonable, and the government was recommending> it. That would move the burden of buying much of the tamiflu from the> government to individuals, and it would also mean that the medicine would be> in the hands of the public when a pandemic began.>>>> Worries that the public isn't responsible enough to keep some Tamiflu in> their sock drawer for a rainy day are misplaced. PSA's urging people not> to use it unless a pandemic has erupted could be run on radio and TV> stations, and would likely be very effective.>>>>>> People aren't as dumb as their governments like to believe.>>>>>> Could it all be for naught? Could Tamiflu end up being useless in the face> of a pandemic?>>>> I suppose so. It's a gamble.>>>> But right now, we don't have a lot of options. We either fight using the> tools we have, or we accept whatever a pandemic throws at us.>>>>> posted by FLA_MEDIC @ 6:01 AM 0 comments>> 0 Comments:>> Post a Comment>> << Home>>> About Me Name: FLA_MEDIC Location: Central Florida, Florida, United States>> Paramedic, Computer software designer, Building contractor, Cruising sailor,> Humorist. . . obviously unable to hold a job.>> View my complete profile>>>> Previous Posts>> Riau: Take 3> Update: 5 Suspected H5N1 Patients Test Negative> A Possible Cluster In Riau?> Nabarro Warns Of Zoonotic Threats> Meanwhile Cholera Spreads In Vietnam> Vietnam: 6th Province Reports H5N1> Video : Utah Pandemic Flu Commercial # 1236 ...> Indonesia Demands Return Of Bird Flu Samples> Details On Latest Riau Death> 24 Hours Later>>>>> Trends>>> By watching login trends we may detect areas of growing interest in H5N1> around the world. Map start date is Apr. 18th 2007>>>>>>> ________________________________>>>

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.29/1124 - Release Date: 11/11/2007 10:12 AM

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November 13, 2007

go see a natural provider that practices realistically and safely. ask them tons of questions ask them if they read peer reviewed natural medicine journals- they are quite a number of really good ones out there. ask them to provide proof that what they are advising you to take or do has been studied and is safe to take.

most people do not have access to papaya leaves nor could they afford to buy them here in the us because they are imported and thus cost money.

when I said you have to use an anti-viral compound I should have added natural or chemical.

btw, all modern medications came from PLANT or animal orgins. all pharmaceutical companies have done is isolate the chemical properties of the source [ plant or animal] and recreated them in the lab.

plants and animal sources are chemicals- that is right they are all made up of chemical compounds that can be isolated and recreated in the lab. take digoxin, a heart med it is from the plant digitalis aka foxglove. or Gaucher's disease which was originally treated using the ovaries of a specific hamster species and now they have been able to isolate the chemical structure of the compounds found in the ovaries and recreate it in the lab. or insulin dependent diabetes the insulin used to come from pigs now it comes from human recombinant dna that is much safer for people with hyperactive immune systems that may not do well on pig insulin. plus it is better for the pigs

when you buy tumeric pills in the herbal store- these were created from the chemical compounds found in the living plant and recreated in the lab for us humans to take. or how about vitamins and minerals- they are chemically created in a lab. every supplement out there that you buy from either a compounding pharmacy or a health food store has been recreated in a lab and made into pills, capsules or liquids. the only exception is Chinese herbs from a Chinese herbal store that sells herbal dried plant parts.

Re: [ ] Emailing: how-much-tamiflu-is-enough.htm>>>>> do not use tamifue, period. Let the fever run ts course, the tamiflu> will interfere, you think you are better, but inside of you the virus> builds up, than you get sick, your lungs fill with water or fluid and> no way you survive.> I think I got this expained via fourwinds10, or another webside(dutch> one) but it might be, I cannot pull up the article as it is one> another computer I can no longer access. Please do not use tamiflu, or> any fever reducing drug if you really get the (avian)flu, Atiester> On Nov 11, 2007 7:20 PM, Joyce Hudson <bjoyfuliglou> wrote:> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Avian Flu Diary> >> > This blog will be my attempt to chronicle the Avian Flu threat. As a> former> > paramedic, I was heavily involved in the public Health Response to the> > `Swine Flu' threat of the 1970's. All essays are copyright©2006-2007 by> > the author but may be reprinted with attribution. All opinions expressed> are> > my own, and should not be taken as medical advice or recommendations by> the> > reader.> >> >> >> > Sunday, November 11, 2007> >> > How Much Tamiflu Is Enough?> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > #1243> >> >> >> >> >> > Today's story out of the UK indicates that their Pandemic Influenza> > Scientific Advisory Group is urging the government to triple their> stockpile> > of Tamiflu (oseltamavir).> >> >> >> > They believe that coverage for 75% of their population is essential if> they> > are to "exert reasonable control over the scale and severity of the> national> > outbreak"> >> >> >> > First the story, then a discussion.> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > 'Too few jabs' to fight flu epidemic> >> >> >> > Last Updated: 2:44am GMT 11/11/2007> >> >> >> > Stockpiles of drugs to fight a flu pandemic must be increased if the death> > toll from an outbreak of the virus is to be minimised, senior government> > advisers have warned> >> >> >> > The latest research by the Pandemic Influenza Scientific Advisory Group> > claims that the number of antiviral doses held by the Government must be> > tripled if a flu pandemic is to be effectively controlled.> >> >> >> > The current stockpile of 14.6 million courses of the antiviral drug> Tamiflu> > covers 25 per cent of the population.> >> >> >> > However, the group warned that "under no circumstances" would it be> possible> > to limit effectively the number of cases and deaths with the existing> > stocks.> >> >> >> > It said there were not enough doses available to give drugs to family> > members of an infected patient, making it hard to stop an outbreak> spreading> > once it gained hold.> >> >> >> > Instead, the scientists recommend boosting the stockpile to cover more> than> > 75 per cent of the population.> >> >> >> > Such a move would allow doctors to "exert reasonable control over the> scale> > and severity of the national outbreak".> >> >> >> >> >> > Last month, in a blog called How (not) To Break Bad News I recounted the> > hoary story of the English gentleman calling home to his butler, to find> > that his dog had died. I equated that slow motion dispensing of bad news> > to the way information about a pandemic is released.> >> >> >> > By drips and drabs.> >> >> >> > Here we have another drip. Although, not an unexpected one.> >> >> >> > Conventional wisdom over the past couple of years has stated that 25%> > coverage of the population with Tamiflu would be sufficient. We are also> > told that a 10-pill course of Tamiflu is all that is required. Both of> > these assumptions have come under fire in the past, and are likely to> > continue to do so.> >> >> >> > I suspect these original estimates were based more on what officials> thought> > they could `sell' to their respective governments, more than on logic and> > science. Budgets are tight, and spending money to thwart a pandemic that> > might not happen anytime soon is politically risky.> >> >> >> > Two years ago, the 10-pill course for 25% of the population may have been> > seen as about as much as pandemic planners could hope for. Better to get> > that, than ask for 3 times that much, and get turned down flat.> >> >> >> > But we now know that the 10 pill course of Tamiflu is probably> insufficient.> > And estimates of the attack rate, the percentage of people who are> sickened> > in a pandemic, have escalated over the past couple of years, going from a> > conservative 25% to speculation that 50% or more of the population may be> > susceptible.> >> >> >> >> >> > Right now patients are routinely given more than the 2 pills a day for 5> > days (10 pill course) of Tamiflu, and still, many of them die. There are> > trials underway looking at whether a `double the dose for double the> > duration' will improve survival.> >> >> >> > In other words, instead of 10 pills, a course would require 40 pills.> >> >> >> > In a country like Britain, one that already has enough tamiflu at the> lower> > dose to treat 25% of their population, an increase in the dose to 40 pills> > would reduce their coverage to roughly 6%.> >> >> >> > The United States, which currently only has enough Tamiflu on hand to> treat> > about 15% of the nation (at the lower dose), would be down to only enough> > for 4% at the higher dose.> >> >> >> > Of course, we don't know if the higher doses will improve patient> outcomes.> > Early data suggests that it might, but no controlled studies have been> > completed.> >> >> >> > And this only figures treating people already infected. It provides> nothing> > for prophylaxis.> >> >> >> > But let's use the 10 pill course for now, even if it may prove woefully> > inadequate in the future. The United States, which after two years is> > still a year away from achieving a 25% stockpile, would need another 160> > million courses of the medicine under these guidelines. The UK, another 30> > million Courses.> >> >> >> > Even at the heavily discounted price governments pay for the stuff, this> is> > hardly chump change. We are talking billions of dollars to purchase, and> > it has a limited shelf life. Then there are storage costs, distribution> > costs during a crisis, and some real problems with the dosing being> > purchased.> >> >> >> > Almost all of the Tamiflu purchased by the United States has been in the> > form of 75mg capsules, used for the Adult dose. Out of 50 million courses,> > reportedly only 100,000 are in the pediatric liquid form. Since we are> > stockpiling for a disease that strikes the young, buying 99% of our> Tamiflu> > in adult formulation doesn't make a lot of sense.> >> >> >> > And for children under the age of 1 year old, Tamiflu is an unapproved> > drug.> >> >> >> > There are concerns that Tamiflu may cross the immature blood brain barrier> > in infants, and cause brain damage. Additionally there are reports that> > children and teenagers, mostly in japan, have on rare occasions> experienced> > neuro-psychiatric side effects while on Tamiflu, resulting in a small> number> > of patients attempting suicide.> >> >> >> > There are studies ongoing, and expected to run into 2009, testing the> safety> > of Tamiflu for infants. Roche labs is said to be investigating the reports> > of side effects in teenagers.> >> >> >> > So, Tamiflu isn't a panacea. And there is a risk that once it is put into> > play combating a pandemic, overuse could drive the virus to become> > resistant, rendering the remainder of the stockpile pretty much useless.> >> >> >> > Buying more Tamiflu is, admittedly, a risk.> >> >> >> > But right now, it is the only game in town. Without a vaccine, antivirals> > are our best weapon against influenza. We either have them, or we are> > reduced to NPI's (Non-pharmaceutical Interventions) to limit the spread of> > the disease.> >> >> >> > The government obviously needs to stockpile more pediatric doses of> Tamiflu.> > The idea that we only have enough for 100,000 children is ludicrous. There> > are 40 million children under the age of 10 in the United States. If only> > 25% are sickened (a low estimate), then we'd need 2.5 million courses.> >> >> >> > Governments, I'm sure, are going to be reluctant to spend billions of> > dollars to stockpile more Tamiflu. And by looking at the facts, tripling> > the number of doses may not be enough. A 75% coverage with an inadequate> > dose is better than a 25% coverage, but it doesn't get the job done. If> > the 40 pill course is eventually adopted, that 75% coverage drops to 19%.> >> >> >> > While more stockpiling is needed, at the same time we should enable our> > citizens to buy Tamiflu, at a discount and without a Rx, to keep on hand> in> > their homes.> >> >> >> > Right now, the price of Tamiflu is ridiculously high. A 10-pill course,> > retail, runs as much as $100. The government buys that same course for a> > fraction of that cost. Roche could probably lower the price to the public> > by 70% and still make a profit.> >> >> >> > Doctors have been reluctant to write scripts to patients who want to have> > tamiflu on hand because the government has warned them not to. They wanted> > first dibs on the existing supply. We should remove that restriction, or> > better yet, make Tamiflu available over-the-counter.> >> >> >> > Millions of American families would probably buy enough tamiflu for> > themselves if the price were reasonable, and the government was> recommending> > it. That would move the burden of buying much of the tamiflu from the> > government to individuals, and it would also mean that the medicine would> be> > in the hands of the public when a pandemic began.> >> >> >> > Worries that the public isn't responsible enough to keep some Tamiflu in> > their sock drawer for a rainy day are misplaced. PSA's urging people not> > to use it unless a pandemic has erupted could be run on radio and TV> > stations, and would likely be very effective.> >> >> >> >> >> > People aren't as dumb as their governments like to believe.> >> >> >> >> >> > Could it all be for naught? Could Tamiflu end up being useless in the face> > of a pandemic?> >> >> >> > I suppose so. It's a gamble.> >> >> >> > But right now, we don't have a lot of options. We either fight using the> > tools we have, or we accept whatever a pandemic throws at us.> >> >> >> >> > posted by FLA_MEDIC @ 6:01 AM 0 comments> >> > 0 Comments:> >> > Post a Comment> >> > << Home> >> >> > About Me Name: FLA_MEDIC Location: Central Florida, Florida, United States> >> > Paramedic, Computer software designer, Building contractor, Cruising> sailor,> > Humorist. . . obviously unable to hold a job.> >> > View my complete profile> >> >> >> > Previous Posts> >> > Riau: Take 3> > Update: 5 Suspected H5N1 Patients Test Negative> > A Possible Cluster In Riau?> > Nabarro Warns Of Zoonotic Threats> > Meanwhile Cholera Spreads In Vietnam> > Vietnam: 6th Province Reports H5N1> > Video : Utah Pandemic Flu Commercial # 1236 ..> > Indonesia Demands Return Of Bird Flu Samples> > Details On Latest Riau Death> > 24 Hours Later> >> >> >> >> > Trends> >> >> > By watching login trends we may detect areas of growing interest in H5N1> > around the world. Map start date is Apr. 18th 2007> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________> >> >> >>>>>> ________________________________>>> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.29/1124 - Release Date: 11/11/2007> 10:12 AM>>>>>> ________________________________>>> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.30/1126 - Release Date: 11/12/2007> 12:56 PM>>

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31/1128 - Release Date: 11/13/2007 11:09 AM

November 14, 2007

Thank you Nancie. I hope this helps the other members, but I already knew it. Yes, there are natural and man made vitamins. I only take natural. Read an article years ago, how the body can only use ten percent of the man made vitamins, but more of the natural vitamins and no, it didn't come from a Natural Vitamin company. It was an article that rated most of the common multiple vitamins purchased in the USA. And I knew that originally the pharmaceuticals on the market now, where developed because of the original plant medicines. I frankly do not like synthetics, not in clothing or what goes into my mouth.

I am already searching for papaya trees, and they can be purchased in the USA. You can buy the fruit or herbs on line. Will look more into that.

But my question was on ways to lower a temperature naturally. I really was hoping you could share some info with us. Blessings, Joy

From: Nancie Barnett

Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 6:55 PM