Re: Not feeling too good

January 14, 2011

See

what the GP has to say today and let us know the outcome. Yes, if he does

say NO, then ask him if he would put this in writing explaining his reasons for

coming to such a decision. Tell him you find it difficult to retain such

information as you are suffering with 'brain fog'.

I thought you felt a little better after your T injection. I

think I would want to have another and see whether you feel better still this

time. Your problems may have been due to bread/gluten/gum in chocs, we don't know, but the fact was your

T results were still at the bottom of othe range and this needs raising.

There is such a thing as " Valid Consent " and it is up

to the patient whether or not he decides to take a recommended treatment Chris

- this is not a sackable offence.

Luv

- Sheila

i suppose the other alterantive is just to not have any of their T shots, and

tell them to stick it, but i'll get struck off won't i so that's not such a

good idea. why are things never simple.

chris

>

> Hi this sounds really promising. A GP should ignore recommendations

> from an eminent consultant in this field at his peril. Should he do so, I

> would want from him, in writing his reasons for ignoring such

> recommendations and I would ask for each reason to be backed up by citing

> references to any scientific evidence.

>

January 14, 2011

Well i just spoke to him. I think he's lost the plot. he says if i want to, i

can start sustenon (he has no recollection that i even had one jab already) and

says he will order some in for me - more of the sustanon.

but says that he won't refer me to a '5th specialist' - it would actually be the

4th specialist. he says he wouldn't refer me because of the extenisve letter

from that dr last month - i said well i don't even know what was said in it, and

he says well i went thru it with you in detail (no he didn't, he said just lose

weight).

so the choice is, take sustanon every 3 weeks, or do nothing. or self treat.

very puzzled and dunno what to do. he ignored my trump card of what Dr H wrote,

that sustanon's no good.

mind boggles at all this.

chris

>

> See what the GP has to say today and let us know the outcome. Yes, if

> he does say NO, then ask him if he would put this in writing explaining his

> reasons for coming to such a decision. Tell him you find it difficult to

January 14, 2011

hi chris

this is all more crazyness isn't it ...first you fail the stim test and need

*emergency* steroids and then you don't...then you have blood and protein in

your urine but *never mind* and now your doctor is agreeing to start a treatment

that has already been started...utter madness!

here's a letter i would be inclined to send:

dear doctor

when we spoke on the phone earlier today you advised me you would be happy for

me to start treatment with sustenon.

i would like to advise you that i had my first injection of sustenon given by

(practice nurse, hospital?) on thursday X january. please confirm that this is

added to my medical notes.

you told me you would not refer me to a fifth specialist ...i have been referred

to three specialists. your stated the reason for not referring me to (name of

specialist) was due to the extensive letter dr X sent last month and you told me

we had discussed that letter in detail; the letter was not discussed in detail,

you just told me he advised me to lose weight....i request a copy of the letter

please so that i may better understand why you will not refer me to specialist

X.

i would like to discuss further the information received from dr h wherein he

does not advise the use of sustenon but uses nebido instead, and he states that

sustenon gives too variable levels. he also said that to give tetosterone as a

boost is incorrect because it takes 12 months for the metabolic effects to take

effect.

i look forward to hearing from you.

or somethimg along those lines ...

trish

>

> Well i just spoke to him. I think he's lost the plot. he says if i want to,

i can start sustenon (he has no recollection that i even had one jab already)

and says he will order some in for me - more of the sustanon.

>

> but says that he won't refer me to a '5th specialist' - it would actually be

the 4th specialist. he says he wouldn't refer me because of the extenisve letter

from that dr last month - i said well i don't even know what was said in it, and

he says well i went thru it with you in detail (no he didn't, he said just lose

weight).

January 14, 2011

hi Trish

i agree it's crazy, i don't know whether i'm coming or going. i don't feel up

to challenging anything or anyone right now; perhaps after i get another jab of

sustanon, i will feel more up to it. i think the T jab (sustanon's) worn off

again now; feeling pretty low again.

i left a voicemail on the nebido dr's phone earlier, i doubt he'll phone me back

but i just asked is there anything else i could do as gp won't refer me to him,

and will only offer sustanon, i said i hope he didn't mind me calling him, and i

realised i'm not a patient so ther'es a limit to how much he can help but i've

hit a brick wall can he help etc. other option is to self treat, there is

guidance about, but i'm concerned of the ramifications of this. in fact though

many men on forums have said they feel better on small doses of T, just an

injetion every week, and that the other forms aren't as good.

i also don't know really that nebido dr would be any better or i'd fare well on

nebido;perhaps i should try another sustanon injection to see if it really

doesn't agree with me or not (scary prospect). if i say to gp i feel all over

the place on sustanon, can i try a different form, then i doubt he'll agree to

this. in my letter i wrote i wanted to be under expert care to be on

testosterone, despite him not agreeing to monitor any blood levels etc, he says

i don't need to be under expert care, he has several patioents on sustanon on

the surgery. of course the sustanon is a lot cheaper for them (3.50 or something

a month) vs nebido 80 for 3 months (or 30-60 a month for gels/patches), and i

expect they pay less if i'm not referred for expert treatment. Dr nebido even

sent me a journal article on T and metabolic syndrome. it is a serious situation

that i need to turn round or at least greatly limit.

also the sustanon should be given every 3 weeks, the gp said that on the phone

today, yet that endo last month wrote every month-shows the extent of his

knowledge. i expect there's some nasty stuff in that endo's letter hence i

haven't seen it. worst of it is i paid 150 for that letter!

as it stands now i am trying to get a new jab on monday afternoon.

i cannot really think wht to do. part of it depe3nds how i feel on the sustanon

again, at least he will give that - it has been ups and downs but i did on the

whole feel better, someone at work commented i was more cheerful and i felt more

like a person again to be honest.

so i do have options, inc writing a letter asking for justification, i can

change gp, i can perhaps try contacting dr nebido again next week by email see

if there's anything he can do (i suspect he doesnt want to be involved really).

also i really do need to lose some weight, if i can lose somet hen i can at

least build a case and say 'look i feel better, i've lost x lbs can i carry on

with this' - and then there will be the argument (if i do lose substantial

weight) taht my levels of T are not normal because i've been on sustanon for x

months, so of coures it'll be low! (that is the other danger with T -

suppressing the brain and body's production of T, esp on long acting forms like

this - that's partly why i feel it's not worth making myself even worse if i

don't have proper support). gp is just standing in the way of my health.

am also trying to sorto out my food intolerances which are just crzy at moment,

potatoes, bread, all kinds things i react to and then this causes me to overeat

(or smoke or both!). i spent a good while in the world food aisle tonight

looking for diff things to eat, and found a few.

i'm sorry to go on and on. Mods please excuse me - forward this to chat if

that's better on there or people can email me privately if they want to comment

best regards

chris

>

> hi chris

>

> this is all more crazyness isn't it ...first you fail the stim test and need

*emergency* steroids and then you don't...then you have blood and protein in

your urine but *never mind* and now your doctor is agreeing to start a treatment

that has already been started...utter madness!

>

> here's a letter i would be inclined to send:

>

January 14, 2011

chris i meant to include this with my last post, maybe your doc would be

interested????

http://www.touchbriefings.com/pdf/2782/jones.pdf

best wishes

trish

January 15, 2011

hi chris

> i don't feel up to challenging anything or anyone right now; perhaps after i

get another jab of sustanon, i will feelmore up to it.

you have my sympathy chris, i know what it feels like to not be able to fight

your way out of a paper bag which is why i thought the *bones* of a letter to

your gp might help. well done though for leaving a voice message to the nebido

doc and it's a good plan to follow up with an email next week.

regarding food inolerances have you ditched (at least for now) spuds and all

grains?? ...the more i find out about the gut the more i am inclined to believe

that a lot of hormone imbalances are symptoms of dysbiosis i certainly think

hashimoto's can have its etiology there (i know you don't have hashi).

there was a discussion last year about lectins and leptin resistance so i'm

re-posting a couple of links plus a link you posted last march about temp

regulation and insulin

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/04/leptin-and-lectins-part-ii.html

http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

http://www.byronrichards.com/index.php/thyroid_leptin/entry/thyroid_has_company_\

insulin_now_found_to_impact_temperature/

> ... and then there will be the argument (if i do lose substantial weight) taht

my levels of T are not normal because i've been on sustanon for x months, so of

coures it'll be low! (that is the other danger with T - suppressing the brain

and body's production of T, esp on long acting forms like this - that's partly

why i feel it's not worth making myself even worse if i don't have proper

support). gp is just standing in the way of my health.

your body and brain have proved that (for the moment) they are not able to

provide you with the hormones you need ...getting some improvement in essential

levels may well make all the difference.

>gp is just standing in the way of my health.

at some point (from what you have said in the past) you've probably been given

the label of " fat chap with mental problems " and it is damned hard work to try

and shift another person's opinion when they suffer from ego up their arseness,

utter ignorance or plain old stress ...any one of these (or more) could be

afflicting your gp or the *specialists* you have seen!! i personally don't

think it's fair that you should have to fork out more of your own money to try

and get your health back but on the other hand i recognise that you may have to

do that in order to get better.

you will get there in the end chris, we are all on *journeys* of one kind or

another so try and enjoy the ride as best you can and know that all the time you

too are doing the best that you can...*best* will vary from day to day..

onward and upwards as the saying goes

trish

>

> hi Trish

>

> i agree it's crazy, i don't know whether i'm coming or going. i don't feel up

to challenging anything or anyone right now; perhaps after i get another jab of

sustanon, i will feel more up to it. i think the T jab (sustanon's) worn off

again now; feeling pretty low again.

>

> i left a voicemail on the nebido dr's phone earlier, i doubt he'll

January 16, 2011

Hi Trish

Thanks for your message. You are right about the letter, not even sure i feel

up to sending that though.

well Dr Nebido as i'm calling hin now has replied to my mail last week - just

said again that he never uses sustanon, all the guidelines don't recommend it,

and he uses only gel or nebido and they check the levels after a few months; he

says mental problems should not be an issue, as they only restore T to normal

levels. he sounds ok to be honest though think he's a bit fed up with me

emailing him as he said he can't help unless i get a referral and email

consultations aren't any good etc. i don't know if he replied last night

becasue i'd emailed him again, or it was just taht he'd got round to it then -

the mail he replied to was about 6 days old, yesterday i just mailed him asking

if he knew any good gps in my area who'd refer me to him.

> regarding food inolerances have you ditched (at least for now) spuds and all

grains?? ...the more i find out about the gut the more i am inclined to believe

that a lot of hormone imbalances are symptoms of dysbiosis i certainly think

hashimoto's can have its etiology there (i know you don't have hashi).

yeah i'm trying to change my diet. i seem ok with plain M+s crisps, and oven

chips and micro-chips (not silicon variety!), but i am avoiding these too. i

am trying to find what i'm ok with - i feel ok with pears but not apples, baked

beans ok, bananas big no no,kiwis no, pig products ok, chicken no, beef iffy,

eggs (yolks!) ok,pure whey protein ok, and ok with veg like peas carrots and

broccoli etc and other root veg like parsnips. have reached a point where i'm

sick of feeling ill and stresed whatever i eat so having to do something now.

lectins are very interesting, i gatehr there's some in potatoes too that can

cause weight gain plus bread messes people up too.

> your body and brain have proved that (for the moment) they are not able to

provide you with the hormones you need ...getting some improvement in essential

levels may well make all the difference.

true, there's also the self treatment option of clomid but i don't know if

that'd work.

> >gp is just standing in the way of my health.

>

> at some point (from what you have said in the past) you've probably been given

the label of " fat chap with mental problems " and it is damned hard work to try

and shift another person's opinion when they suffer from ego up their arseness,

utter ignorance or plain old stress ...any one of these (or more) could be

afflicting your gp or the *specialists* you have seen!! i personally don't

think it's fair that you should have to fork out more of your own money to try

and get your health back but on the other hand i recognise that you may have to

do that in order to get better.

yeah i agree that's what they're pinning it all on - fat hypochondriac who won't

exercise!

> you will get there in the end chris, we are all on *journeys* of one kind or

another so try and enjoy the ride as best you can and know that all the time you

too are doing the best that you can...*best* will vary from day to day..

yes it has been an interesting journey to say the least.

so now i am just trying to think how to proceed:

a) do i change gp hoping to find one who will refer me to Dr N?

do i ask my gp to try me on a diff T preparation?

c) do i ask my gp to refer me privately to Dr H then see if Dr H can refer me to

his clinic on nhs after (Not sure this is possible)

d) do i insist with my gp that he refer me and not endanger my health by giving

me inferior treatment

e) do i self treat?

f) do i ask to see a bupa gp and see if i can referred that way? (pricy way of

doing it)

g) do i just stick with the sustenon and hope this time it isn't so much of a

roller coaster (assuming my T receptors are adjusting to having that much T and

i won't feel the same this time)

h) lose weight and just see what happens then but don't take the sustanon - but

losing 4 stone could take a long time.

i really don't know how to proceed. i need the referral to Dr N, i don't know

how to get it. that is the problem. i could play my face and complain to the

practice manager? Dr N sounds sympathetic so think he would see me, he said my

cholesterol and triglycerides are unacceptable but again he cannot do anything

without a referral. i am at a loss to know what to do now.

chris

February 6, 2011

Right!

I have had enough of this gp messing me around, and i have now composed a letter

which will sink the boat, not rock it. i will get my next injection, and

straight after fire torpedoes! I feel dreadful again inbetween injections so it

is time to get this sorted rather than be on inferior form of medication which

is dirt cheap (2.50 a month). in the letter i have put history in which

questions their (endoprat) conclusion that all my problems are from weight, and

also questioned why they (gp) ignored a blood test taht was below normal in 2009

and it clearly states so on the lab report that it should be retested along with

other things, i shall also reference a journal article that states that symptoms

of hypogonadism manifest between 8-12nmol/l, and at the time i presented with

these symp[toms and a level of 9.2 and nothing was done. that, and the letter

from the occupational tehrapist saying i seem much improved on testosterone

should do the trick, if not i will take my complaint as far as i can . i

shouldn't need to really as the uro i emailed said he would see me and i almost

certainly should be on T.

drs ignoring test results and letting people remain ill is too common a story i

think, esp to people on here. i hope they end up hoisted by their own petard!

Chris

>

> you are right Sheila.

>

> even if the letter is BS - as i suspect - the other two letters from Dr M and

Dr A (and logic and reason) should be enough to discredit this other Drs letter.

it is similar situation to when GP referred me to Dr M - i have never read such

a load of rubbish in all my life; /

February 6, 2011

WaHAY! Way to go Chris!

I am delighted that you have now got made enough to do something

for yourself, and believe me, this is long overdue. You should no longer have

to put up with such ignorance from doctors who are CAUSING you ill health and

obviously, don't give a damn.

Be sure to send a copy to the Head of Practice as well as the GP

concerned, and keep a copy for yourself, in case both should 'accidentally'

become lost - as has been known. Ask also for the letter to be placed into your

medical notes. Do keep us all informed of what happens we have all been

through this with you for such a long time now, and we want to see a happy

conclusion, but remember, that we are all here for you whenever you need the

help you so deserve.

Big (((HUGS))) and WELL DONE!

Luv - Sheila

I have had enough of this gp messing me around, and i have now composed a

letter which will sink the boat, not rock it. i will get my next injection, and

straight after fire torpedoes! I feel dreadful again inbetween injections so it

is time to get this sorted rather than be on inferior form of medication which

is dirt cheap (2.50 a month). in the letter i have put history in which

questions their (endoprat) conclusion that all my problems are from weight, and

also questioned why they (gp) ignored a blood test taht was below normal in

2009 and it clearly states so on the lab report that it should be retested

along with other things, i shall also reference a journal article that states

that symptoms of hypogonadism manifest between 8-12nmol/l, and at the time i

presented with these symp[toms and a level of 9.2 and nothing was done. that,

and the letter from the occupational tehrapist saying i seem much improved on

testosterone should do the trick, if not i will take my complaint as far as i

can . i shouldn't need to really as the uro i emailed said he would see me and

i almost certainly should be on T.

drs ignoring test results and letting people remain ill is too common a story i

think, esp to people on here. i hope they end up hoisted by their own petard!

February 6, 2011

thank you Sheila!

i guess i have got to that point where i 'm not gonna put up with it plus the

pct woman told me i was within my rights to ask for an nhs referral, plus the

uro said he'd see me, plus the therapist is backing me up (she said this

practice sounds liket hey're just trying to save money - they never refer anyone

to her, for example) and plus i've got improvement so i just think i'm not going

to put up with it anymore. i had fun writing the letter, have kept it factual

as the facts speak for themselves, but wish i had more space to write about the

metnal health therpaist who nearly disssuaded me from getting a consultation for

sleep apnea, as he said it was all stress. he also said therapy wouldn';t work

for me as i argued with him about the cause of my problems! he shouldn't make

comments on areas he's not qualified in; i was stopping breathing 90 times an

hour and had i not got treated for sleep apnea the consequences over time would

have been bad, and in short term could have been worse - fatigue can cause fatal

acidents. i very nearly didn't see the sleep dr, i am glad i did.

of course this all went down in my notes that i argued about why i was fatigued

and depresssed, but i was right about sleep apnea. and right about testosterone

too.

letter is 3 pages, which i know is a bit long but i don't care, he can read it

and earn his 100k+ a year. i may make it longer and make him read a bit more

about sleep apnea and the crap services his practice offers!

pass me those torpedoes!

Thank you!

chris

>

> WaHAY! Way to go Chris!

>

> I am delighted that you have now got made enough to do something for

> yourself, and believe me, this is long overdue. You should no longer have to

> put up with such ignorance from doctors who are CAUSING you ill health and

> obviously, don't give a damn.

>

> Be sure to send a copy to the Head of Practice as well as the GP concerned,

> and keep a copy for yourself, in case both should 'accidentally' become lost

> - as has been known. Ask also for the letter to be placed into your medical

> notes. Do keep us all informed of what happens we have all been

> through this with you for such a long time now, and we want to see a happy

> conclusion, but remember, that we are all here for you whenever you need the

> help you so deserve.

>

> Big (((HUGS))) and WELL DONE!

>

February 6, 2011

oh i have also requested a copy of the letter from that endo i saw in december,

that will be intetesting. he didn't understadn my history very well, i told him

i had a symptom when i was 20, and when i asked him why i might have felt like

this he blamed it on a medication i tried ten years later (yes, that's right)

chris

February 6, 2011

just one more thing though, you don't think the consultant i get referred to

will see my note and then refuse my referral do you? It is only factual

information in the letter though a reader would tell i'm not happy

thanks

chris

>

> WaHAY! Way to go Chris!

>

> I am delighted that you have now got made enough to do something for

> yourself, and believe me, this is long overdue. You should no longe

February 8, 2011

Right, i have had my next jab, and handed in the letters - one to the practice

manager, one for the GP. Torpedoes away. I think the letter was quite

reasonable in the end (Thank you Sheila!)

so i am waiting for the T to kick in and for me to feel like a person again - it

normally kicks in soon.

I will see what happens now, GP might phone me to fob me off, he did that last

time i asked for a referral. felt browbeaten by him to be honest.

when I have had the T it is interesting what happens - it corrects my brain

chemistry, and i have no cravings for cigs or junk food, all things i use to

self medicate with. when i have had the T i think 'that's just junk which has

been made to be addictive and moreish' and i don't need it. but when the T's

worn off i will try anything including eating that junk just to help my mood a

bit.

i will let you know what happens with the gp and if i get the results i asked

for etc

thanks

chris

>

> WaHAY! Way to go Chris!

>

> I am delighted that you have now got made enough to do something for

> yourself, and believe me, this is long overdue. You should no longer have to

> put up with such ignorance from doctors who are CAUSING you ill health and

> obviously, don't give a damn.

February 9, 2011

well done chris

trish

>

> Right, i have had my next jab, and handed in the letters - one to the practice

manager, one for the GP. Torpedoes away. I think the letter was quite

reasonable in the end (Thank you Sheila!)

February 14, 2011

I just phoned the practice manager to see if any decision had been made for my

referral. apparently not, yet.

i feel dreadful now. i think the testosterone is converting into too much

estrogen, which can cause major problems in itself. not good.

chris

>

> >

> > Right, i have had my next jab, and handed in the letters - one to the

practice manager, one for the GP. Torpedoes away. I think the letter was quite

reasonable in the end (Thank you Sheila!)

>

February 21, 2011

i'm lost for words...gp has agreed to a referral to a dr i wanted, a copy of the

endo's letter from dec last year, and a copy of results of T from 1999 and 2000

when my symptoms first started.

he wanted to manage this in house i think, saying he'd offer me to swithc to a

diff form of injection but i said i was very concerned i'd be taken off it in

3-5 months, and he said well you don't want to be on male hormones all your life

do you, and i said no but the other dr i spoke to said i'd need 6-12 months

before they worked. also, i told him my weight wasn't going down despite

orlistat and he agreed to refer me. he wasn't actually unpleasant, either-quite

reasonable, which is a major surprise.

he said he received my letter and said it took him ages to read it- i apologised

but said i wanted you to be aware of the situation, given it's complicated and

been going on some time and changed somewhat. he said that he'd written back

asking me to come and see him to discuss, but i didn't get that letter.

and he even said -without me having to ask - that i 'd carry on with the jabs

i'm geting now until i get my referral.

chris

>

> just to make life more harder than it needs to be, i have found out taht the

occupational therapist, who said she'd write to my GP to say how much better i

seem on T, has not written to him yet. she's had about 4 weeks. i am very

disappointed by this. i think that was going to be crucial to whether he

referred me or not, it would have added a lot of weight to my request for a

referral. she is my only ally in the health field.

February 21, 2011

Hello

I may be able to help you with this quest of yours.

he wanted to manage this in house i think, saying he'd offer me to swithc to a diff form of injection but i said i was very concerned i'd be taken off it in 3-5 months, and he said well you don't want to be on male hormones all your life do you, and i said no but the other dr i spoke to said i'd need 6-12 months before they worked. also, i told him my weight wasn't going down despite orlistat and he agreed to refer me. he wasn't actually unpleasant, either-quite reasonable, which is a major surprise.

You may be disspaointed as endorcinologists are naieve in this country when you are talking testosterone because they are usually primarily diabetes specialists and their job is to keep you alive not optimise your hormones. Dr Ross from Sheffield is one of the more forward thinking endos but even he i hear is stuck in the same way of thinking as others, they have no choice its the way they are trained and the textbooks they follow not to mention the BNF, even if they realise they don't want to put there head over the parapet. For testosterone, Dr Thierry in Brussells, the one whose questionairre you posted, is good. Only other guy would be a Dr J Crisler in Lansing, America or Dr Eugene Shippen.

In the UK the onlyDri that is mentioned is Dr Peatfield by people in TRT circles from all over the world know about him as a very good Dr that understands all the feedback loops and the necessary stuff and is quite well respected eventhough Dr Peatfield specialises in adrenals and thyroid, i hear he understands the complexities of testosterone and its play in the body many times better than a typical endo. On the NHS, i don't think you are gonna get any luck, maybe you can convince the endo to prescribe you test (you wont get arimidex on NHS i dont think) and let you inject yourself and then use your own resourcefulness to manage your own health using the knowledge you gain.

Perhaps doing a restart will be good, which can be done via a combination of HCG and Nolvadex and clomid. Dr Scally does this exact one as do Crisler and Thierry with their own variations. Trouble withn TRT is that you may never restart, so its wise to only go on if you have no other choice.

You could try a herbal ayuverdic route for boosting testosterone which seems to have worked for many people i know who ended up with low test after abusing substances they should not have been. It is expensive but has worked and blood tests have confirmed results, however heavy metals can be an issue with ayuverdic prescriptions. I spoke to the Ayuverdic doctor and he informed me as an example fo how his stuff works, that just one of the ways his products help is by correcting improper liver (which no western medicne can do) and restoring and aiding the ability of the liver to synthesise pregnonolone from cholesterol which helps boost the adrenals and the same can be when treating thyroid as the root cause he claimed was due to liver metabolism and LFT tests cant tell how well you are doing this. He claimed that once liver issues are sorted, estardiol levels lower, testosterone increases, shbg lowers and pregnonolone

increases, thyroid hormone boosts and it regulates the system. I know his preparations have boosted LH hormone and testosterone, this was seen in blood tests. He claimed that instead of replacement many people can be cured by treating this cause, however doctors in the west only know replacement which is usually not needed he claimed. He has gotten people well so he can say this but he is expensive but some say justified.

Also, a knwoedgeable person told me that when thyroid and adrenals are underperforming testosterone metabolism is reduced causing lower testosterone but once thyroid and adrenals are regulated your tetosterone levels should jump up. Maybe look into these areas and correct them first.

If you do not get results from injections and estradiol control via arimidex then your issues lies somewhere else. also do you mind what protocol you are using? Ideally you want to inject 3 times a week in small amounts and take armiidex is small amounts 2 - 3 times a week to stable the estardiol and get constant stable testosterone levels.

Here is a protocol developed from a very knolwedgeable individual, Dr Thierry heroghate and others, which is explained and it involves using transdermal pregnonolone cream for adrenals and optimising thyroid alongside, then boosting testsoterone last. If you do a restart and start working on pregnonolone cream and boost thyroid the restart has more chance to stick.

http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/content.php?118-cortisol-boost-101

http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/content.php?120-thyroid-boost-101

http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/content.php?119-testosterone-boost-101

Best Regards,

Moahmmed

February 21, 2011

Hello muhammedI've read your reply to chris regarding resolving hormonal issues through a herbal route. I'm currently having some issues my self in this department. I have decided to go visit doctor peatfield as I believe I have adrenal fatigue after doing a saliva test. Just wondering if you can kindly tell me your experiences regarding iscort? Any details of this herbal person?Sent from my iPhoneOn 21 Feb 2011, at 13:22, Mohammed Attif <mo_attif@...> wrote: