Re: Help with changing from T4 to NDT please

January 21, 2011

Hello Frances,

First of all a warm welcome To come straight to the point, yes, changing over from Levo to NDT (natural desiccated thyroid) is no problem at all, but for the transition to go smoothly, there are a few things that should be checked first, namely adrenal function, possible Candida Albicans and minerals and vitamins.

To check the adrenal function, please ask your mum to do the adrenal questionnaire in our files. If there were any query about her adrenals being weak, then that needs to be addressed – optimally she would do a private adrenal salivary test with Genova (she does not need a doctor to order one). We TPA members get a discount with Genova, but it will still cost £ 64.29 plus postage. To know the status of our adrenal function is important, because cortisol (produced by our adrenals) is needed to utilize thyroid hormone. – so this is the first thing to check.

Also please read all the info on Candida Albicans, which is yeast overgrowth, in the files (questionnaire, etc). If your mum suspected to have this condition, then equally, a private salivary test with Genova would help to identify the severity of the problem.

Both, possible low adrenal reserve and Candida Albicans will have to be addressed a couple of weeks or so before and then simultaneously with the thyroid medication. Golden rule – treat the adrenals first, then the thyroid...

And last, but not least, your mum needs to persuade her GP to order a few blood tests. She should ask for:

Ferritin, Magnesium, Folate, Zinc, Copper, Vitamin B12 and Vitamin D3 - all of those can be done on NHS, so she should not be told otherwise, although many GP's will pooh-pooh it and say it's not necessary. It is necessary to know the figures of those parameters, because if any of them were low (even low within the norm range) that could prevent thyroid hormone from getting into the cells. It's no good if the hormone just floats about in the blood stream and produce optimal looking figures ... it's inside the cell where they are needed and those minerals and vitamins help to get them there. – Any parameters that were low, your mum would have to supplement.

Now, with all this done, switching over is easy.

What I'd like to know is is this OK to do for someone with Hashi's? I.e. because they will presumably be on a lower dose than T4-only for quite a while?

Yes, no problem. Unless your mum's adrenal function were very low (in which case she would need to support her adrenal function first for one or two weeks before starting with NDT) she would stop the Levothyroxine one day, and start with ½ grain NDT the next morning (at least one hour before breakfast). Don't worry, she will be fine. She should then continue with ½ grain for about one week every morning, then double the dose to 2x ½ grain – am and pm and stay on that dosage for the next 4 weeks. Thereafter she should add another ½ grain every 4 weeks until she feels slight hyperthyroid symptoms (palpitations, shortness of breath, etc). Then cut back to the previous dosage and stay there. That's all there is to it.

You can't make a direct comparison from Levothyroxine to NDT. Levo is T4 only – NDT contains T4, T3, T1 & 2 plus Calcitonin. T4 has a half-life of about a week – so a week after stopping Levothyroxine there will still be half of the last T4 dosage in the body. But with NDT there is now a new influx of all those new hormones, in particular "ready-made" T3, which will go straight into the cells. So your mum will not feel deprived of thyroid hormones, even though the starting dose is low. Regardless of a previously taken Levo dosage it is important to start low, because the body will have to slowly get used to the influx of T3. T3 is a powerful hormone – slowly, slowly catchy monkey does it.

Furthermore – yes, there is a conversion table in the files, but beware – you can't do a straight comparison. It does not work that way. Most people need and tolerate a much higher dosage of NDT than Levothyroxine. For instance, my limit on Levothyroxine was 125 mcg. I now take 2 grains plus a little extra of T3 on occasions, and I feel fine. This would – according to the table – equate to well above 200 mcg Levothyroxine, and there is no way I could ever have taken that in the long run. I got hyperthyroid symptoms when I tried 150 mcg. With NDT you set your own level and your body will tell you loud and clear what's enough.

If, by any chance, your mum has got adrenal or Candida issues or is low in any vits or minerals, please let us know, because that would need to be addressed first/simulataneously.

Is an approach ever used where you gradually replace the T4 with NDT, for example, taking 75mcg Levo and 1/4 grain NDT, then 50mcg Levo and 1/2 grain NDT, and so on and so on?

Yes, some people do it that way, but I would not recommend it. It complicates thing, can get messy, you won't know where you stand, it takes longer, and most of all .... it is not necessary. Clean break IMO works best.

Best wishes,

January 21, 2011

Yes, the conversion charts supplied by by Forest are very inaccurate.

There really are NO conversion charts relating to levothyroxine - v - natural

thyroid extract. Thyroxine is a prohormone and contains the mainly inactive T4

ONLY. It has to convert to the active thyroid hormone T3 to make every cell in

your body and brain function properly. The T3 then converts to T2 and T1 (both

active hormones). All these hormones are naturally in thyroid extract. There is

no way you can use any conversion chart when swapping T4 to a product

containing all the thyroid hormones. It just isn't possible.

It is usually recommended you stop the synthetic thyroxine on

one day, and the next day start with 1 grain of thyroid extract, taking half a

grain in the morning and the other half grain in the afternoon and stay on that

for 3 weeks, before increasing by another half grain at that time. See the

information 'How to Use Natural Thyroid Extract' in the FILES section of this

forum web site under the folder entitled 'Natural Thyroid Extract' and you can

read the details there.

For those who decrease their thyroxine slowly, adding teeny

amount of NDT, this can take a very long time and causes great frustration for

the patient who is keen to see changes for the better.

However, there may be a reason why your Mum is unable to get on

with synthetic levothyroxine. Any of the following might be a cause. She has

low adrenal reserve, systemic candidiasis, mercury poisoning, low ferritin,

B12, D3, magnesium, folate, copper and zinc (see attached). So before swapping,

it is best to check these out, otherwise she will not be able to properly

absorb the thyroid hormone at cellular level, until whatever she is suffering

has been supplemented.

You use NDT for ANY of the causes of hypothyroidism. I have

Hashimoto's and I use NDT and have done for the past (almost) 8 years.

Luv - Sheila

My mother has Hashimoto's and

is currently on 100mcg of Levothyroxine. However she wasn't feeling

completely well on it and so we started researching desiccated thyroid.

Her doctor wouldn't prescribe it, and so after a long battle, she changed

doctors, but her new one wouldn't prescribe it either. So, we decided

to order some privately through an online pharmacy.

In this article (it's called

'How to Treat with Natural Thyroid Extract') there are instructions for those

changing to NDT from T4. It advises to start off very slowly (with a quarter or

half a grain) and build up. What I'd like to know is this OK to do for someone

with Hashi's? I.e. because they will presumably be on a lower dose than T4-only

for quite a while?

,_._,___

January 31, 2011

Hi and Shelia,

Thanks so much for your advice and for the welcome . I'm very sorry for the

delay in replying. That's really helpful - it's good to know that the small

amount of T3 will make up for less T4 (and I am very aware of the importance of

building up T3 very slowly).

Mum started on a quarter grain in the morning and afternoon last week, and felt

really good on it; amongst other things, she started to wake up completely

naturally in the mornings as opposed to having to be woken and feeling extremely

groggy. However after a couple of days she started to feel a bit too hyped, like

she couldn't relax. She went back to 1/4 grain and seems to be tolerating that

OK. I am guessing it is her adrenals (more below) that are causing this

intolerance at a low dose? Is T3 harder on the adrenals than T4 - as she was

able to take a high dose of Levo without this happening?

I got mum's adrenals tested by Genova a while ago, and they were low in the

afternoon and early evening: 2.3 (range 5-9) and 1.6 (range 3-7), respectively,

normal before sleep, but above range in the morning: 25.6 (range 12-22). I've

since put her on vitamin C, but am unsure of what else to do about this. What

would you advise?

I had already got her to ask for several of the tests you mention, and she got a

blood form for them, but they didn't do them all. They did folate, which was a

little high; do you know what this could mean? (She doesn't take any extra

folate apart from a multivitamin). It was serum. Is this OK, or does she need to

have RBC folate? I did find a paper saying there wasn't much difference between

the two. Unlike magnesium, of course - I didn't bother asking for magnesium as I

know they'd only do serum. (I'm planning to get mum a RBC magnesium privately).

They did nearly all the iron tests I asked for, but not TIBC. Should I ask for

this again? All other iron tests (Ferritin, serum iron, transferrin saturation)

were good. I asked for vitamin D and the doctor wrote it on the form, but the

lab didn't do it, so we're going to ask for it to be done again. Vitamin B12 is

middle of range.

I didn't ask for copper or zinc, mainly because I thought that they would only

do serum, and I was under the impression that you needed to measure the RBCs for

copper and the WBCs for zinc. Is this right?

I've no idea about the Candida, I have to say. Is there any research on how this

affects the thyroid?

Thank you very much again for your time and help .

Best wishes, Frances

January 31, 2011

Just realised I spelt both of your names wrong, although Sheila's was a typo.

I'm so sorry ! I did know in my head that you were , but I've

just realised I typed for some reason. My apologies!

Frances

February 7, 2011

Hello,

As it's been a week and I've had no reply, I'm taking the liberty of posting

this message again. I'd be so grateful if ANYONE could help me - I am at a bit

of a loss as to what to do next, especially with regard to the adrenals.

Thank you to anyone who replies,

Best wishes,

Frances

>

> Hi and Shelia,

>

> Thanks so much for your advice and for the welcome . I'm very sorry for the