Re: Gluten and autoimmune reactions

[Guest guest]

Hi Miriam - for a positive coeliac test then it is a minimum of 2 slices of bread or equivalent a day for 6 six weeks - as Jackie says. I have been diagnosed with a gluten sensitivity, probably not coeliac but could be as I had stopped eating gluten by the time of my blood tests and gastroscopy. you say that your GP wants to do a test - I think you need to decide if there is any benefit to having this test and what difference it will make othere than make you ill again - I wouldnt do it now and have only been gluten free for about 7 months now. if you want to test it yourself (and there

must have been reasons why you decided to stop eating gluten) then try for a couple of meals. I know within hours if I have accidentally eaten some gluten and wouldnt do it willlingly!!Interestingly i had a test for thyroid antibodies a few years ago and that came back with no antibodies!I wasnt aware that thyroid antibodies were related to gluten and would love to know the book you mention. Coeliac UK have a helpfline and I have rung it before and dont think they asked for any sort of ID/membership no so you could give them a ring (0845 3052060) and ask how much to eat prior to a test - they have members who have all sorts of gluten problems not just coeliac.Gill

My GP wants to do a test for thyroid antibodies, but at the moment I don't eat any gluten. I have been low carb for years and previous antibody tests have always been negative. However, it would be nice to have a definitive answer about whether I need to avoid gluten or not.

Does anyone know exactly how much bread I would need to eat per day, and for how many weeks, in order to set off the autoimmune reaction as per Dr Kharrazian's book?

[Guest guest]

Gill,

I'm sure I read about the gluten/thyroid connection in Dr Kharrizans book...

the one about why do I still have symptoms..... I didn't rate the book much

but plenty of other people do.

I bought the book on kindle so I can't lend it to you but I think Sheila has a

paper copy.....

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Still-Thyroid-Symptoms-Normal-ebook/dp/B003LSTAJA/ref=sr\

_1_2?ie=UTF8 & qid=1307517974 & sr=1-2

xx

>

>

> I wasnt aware that thyroid antibodies were related to gluten and would love to

know the book you mention. 

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, everyone. There seems to be a general consensus of 2 slices of bread

per day for 6 weeks.

Whether that is really adequate is another issue. I was a member of a

group for Coeliacs for a while and it was full of people who had been ill for

many years and were tested repeatedly before eventually getting a diagnosis.

Testing is obviously not sensitive enough yet to catch all cases.

The reason I think the test is a good idea is that I would like to know whether

I have an autoimmune illness or not. I don't think I have coeliac disease,

because the first thing I tried when I fell ill was a strict gluten-free diet

for a year, and it didn't help. I do get excema on my hands if I eat bread, but

I have had leaky gut syndrome and testing showed antibodies to lots of different

foods in my blood.

The book is called " Why do I still have thyroid symptoms when my lab tests are

normal " by Datis Kharrazian.

If, after 6 weeks of eating bread every day, my antibody tests are still

negative, then I could discount the auto-immune issue. I would probably

continue to avoid bread as a low carb diet suits me best.

Miriam

> Hi Miriam - for a positive coeliac test then it is a minimum of 2 slices of

bread or equivalent a day for 6 six weeks

>

> I think you need to decide if there is any benefit to having this test and

what difference it will make

>

> I wasnt aware that thyroid antibodies were related to gluten and would love to

know the book you mention. 

[Guest guest]

I have shown Dr Peatfield the correspondence regarding this

topic, he has read the responses and has asked me to pass on the following in

the hope that this will help.

The first thing to say is that some fundamental misunderstanding

seems to have crept in. When we talk of TPO or TgAb tests, we are testing for

antibodies that have triggered off Grave's disease or Hashimoto's disease.

These are specific antibodies that cause thyroid illness.

The gluten antibodies are a different thing. When we get celiac

disease, the specific antibodies which result in celiac disease are responsible

for the symptoms bloating and intestinal upset we get. These may cross-react to

the TPO enzymes in the thyroid and will reduce or damage their production which

will, of course, slow thyroid down, but this is not the same as autoimmune

thyroiditis or Hashimoto's disease.

So eating extra bread to promote these antibodies is a

meaningless exercise, and would not affect TPO or TgAb results. More antibodies

to gluten may well be produced, but really this doesn't help at all. The other

symptoms of gluten sensitivity are quite severe enough anyway to stop one

eating gluten. The effect on the thyroid is peripheral and they are not the

same as TgAB and TPO antibodies. There are SPECIFIC antibodies to gluten which

can be tested for, viz: Antigliden, Antiendomysium and Antireticulin.!

Hope that helps.

Luv - Sheila

Gill,

I'm sure I read about the gluten/thyroid connection in Dr Kharrizans book...

the one about why do I still have symptoms..... I didn't rate the book much but

plenty of other people do.

I bought the book on kindle so I can't lend it to you but I think Sheila has a

paper copy.....

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Still-Thyroid-Symptoms-Normal-ebook/dp/B003LSTAJA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8 & qid=1307517974 & sr=1-2

xx

_,_._,___

[Guest guest]

Thanks very much, Sheila. Does that mean I have misunderstood Dr Kharrazian's

book? I thought he was saying that the gluten molecule resembles the thyroid

molecules and a reaction to gluten triggered destruction of the thyroid. (Sorry

I don't have my book just now to look up specific references).

If the above is not correct, why would people with Hashimotos need to avoid

gluten? They don't all have gluten intolerance, do they?

Dr Kharrazian tells you to avoid gluten in order to reduce your autoimmune

thyroid disease, so I assumed that if you ate more of it that would trigger an

attack on the thyroid, producing more antibodies.

From what Dr Peatfield says, it sounds like that would not be the case? It

would be good if Dr Peatfield could explain what Dr Kharrazian's book is really

saying (and whether he agrees with it), but maybe he is too busy to read it?

Miriam

> I have shown Dr Peatfield the correspondence regarding this topic, he has read

the responses and has asked me to pass on the following in the hope that this

will help.

>

> The first thing to say is that some fundamental misunderstanding seems to have

crept in. When we talk of TPO or TgAb tests, we are testing for antibodies that

have triggered off Grave's disease or Hashimoto's disease. These are specific

antibodies that cause thyroid illness.

>

> The gluten antibodies are a different thing. When we get celiac disease, the

specific antibodies which result in celiac disease are responsible for the

symptoms bloating and intestinal upset we get. These may cross-react to the TPO

enzymes in the thyroid and will reduce or damage their production which will, of

course, slow thyroid down, but this is not the same as autoimmune thyroiditis or

Hashimoto's disease.

>

> So eating extra bread to promote these antibodies is a meaningless exercise,

and would not affect TPO or TgAb results. More antibodies to gluten may well be

produced, but really this doesn't help at all. The other symptoms of gluten

sensitivity are quite severe enough anyway to stop one eating gluten. The effect

on the thyroid is peripheral and they are not the same as TgAB and TPO

antibodies. There are SPECIFIC antibodies to gluten which can be tested for,

viz: Antigliden, Antiendomysium and Antireticulin.!

[Guest guest]

Thanks very much, Sheila. Does that mean I have

misunderstood Dr Kharrazian's book? I thought he was saying that the gluten

molecule resembles the thyroid molecules and a reaction to gluten triggered

destruction of the thyroid. (Sorry I don't have my book just now to look up

specific references).

If the above is not correct, why would people with Hashimotos need to avoid

gluten? They don't all have gluten intolerance, do they?

Dr Kharrazian tells you to avoid gluten in order to reduce your autoimmune

thyroid disease, so I assumed that if you ate more of it that would trigger an

attack on the thyroid, producing more antibodies.

From what Dr Peatfield says, it sounds like that would not be the case? It

would be good if Dr Peatfield could explain what Dr Kharrazian's book is really

saying (and whether he agrees with it), but maybe he is too busy to read it?

Miriam

> I have shown Dr Peatfield the correspondence regarding this topic, he has

read the responses and has asked me to pass on the following in the hope that

this will help.

>

> The first thing to say is that some fundamental misunderstanding seems to

have crept in. When we talk of TPO or TgAb tests, we are testing for antibodies

that have triggered off Grave's disease or Hashimoto's disease. These are

specific antibodies that cause thyroid illness.

>

> The gluten antibodies are a different thing. When we get celiac disease,

the specific antibodies which result in celiac disease are responsible for the

symptoms bloating and intestinal upset we get. These may cross-react to the TPO

enzymes in the thyroid and will reduce or damage their production which will,

of course, slow thyroid down, but this is not the same as autoimmune

thyroiditis or Hashimoto's disease.

>

> So eating extra bread to promote these antibodies is a meaningless

exercise, and would not affect TPO or TgAb results. More antibodies to gluten

may well be produced, but really this doesn't help at all. The other symptoms

of gluten sensitivity are quite severe enough anyway to stop one eating gluten.

The effect on the thyroid is peripheral and they are not the same as TgAB and

TPO antibodies. There are SPECIFIC antibodies to gluten which can be tested

for, viz: Antigliden, Antiendomysium and Antireticulin.!

[Guest guest]

Dear Miriam,

Dr Peatfield has read Dr Kharrazian's book and he has read your

message. He says " ..its been known for a long time that the antibodies the

immune system manufactures against gluten may cross react with the TPO enzymes

and reduce thyroid hormone production, so if you are gluten sensitive you avoid

gluten. Your body/symptoms would tell you this anyway.

But the TPO and TgAB antibodies causing Hashimoto's are

manufactured by the immune system itself AGAINST the thyroid tissue and are

not the same as gluten antibodies, although the EFFECT is the same. Tying in

gluten antibodies as a cause of Hashimoto's is pushing the analogy too far, since

of course most people with Hashimoto's don't have a gluten allergy.

Luv - Sheila

Thanks very much, Sheila. Does that mean I have

misunderstood Dr Kharrazian's book? I thought he was saying that the gluten

molecule resembles the thyroid molecules and a reaction to gluten triggered

destruction of the thyroid. (Sorry I don't have my book just now to look up

specific references).

If the above is not correct, why would people with Hashimotos need to avoid

gluten? They don't all have gluten intolerance, do they?

Dr Kharrazian tells you to avoid gluten in order to reduce your autoimmune

thyroid disease, so I assumed that if you ate more of it that would trigger an

attack on the thyroid, producing more antibodies.

From what Dr Peatfield says, it sounds like that would not be the case? It

would be good if Dr Peatfield could explain what Dr Kharrazian's book is really

saying (and whether he agrees with it), but maybe he is too busy to read it?

Miriam

[Guest guest]

"If the above is not correct, why would people with Hashimotos need to avoid gluten? They don't all have gluten intolerance, do they?"

This is interesting. I have always understood that the problem with gluten is that if you get a leaky gut from gluten or even something else, like fillings, particles of partially digested food with gluten in them get into the blood stream through the gut wall and set off an anti-body attack, as opposed to setting off the anti-body attack in the gut. These particles resemble the thyroid in some way and eventually, if you eat too much gluten, your immune system goes into overdrive and starts attacking your thyroid. I think a similar thing happens with people who are sensitive to milk. The peptide chains from partially digested millk resemble the collagen in joints. If the gut is faulty, they can get into the blood stream and this can set off arthritis.

These are theories that I have heard over the years. It might explain why people seem to have problems with gluten who are not positive for gluten allergy or celiac disease. And why they seem to get better on a gluten free diet.

MacGilchrist

[Guest guest]

Thanks for clarifying that. It looks as though I don't have Hashimotos then, as

every time I have been tested for thyroid antibodies the result has been

negative. The fact that I have been on a low carb diet (and therefore

gluten-free) for years shouldn't have invalidated the tests.

Miriam

> Dr Peatfield has read Dr Kharrazian's book and he has read your message. He

says " ..its been known for a long time that the antibodies the immune system

manufactures against gluten may cross react with the TPO enzymes and reduce

thyroid hormone production, so if you are gluten sensitive you avoid gluten.

Your body/symptoms would tell you this anyway.

>

> But the TPO and TgAB antibodies causing Hashimoto's are manufactured by the

immune system itself AGAINST the thyroid tissue and are not the same as gluten

antibodies, although the EFFECT is the same. Tying in gluten antibodies as a

cause of Hashimoto's is pushing the analogy too far, since of course most people

with Hashimoto's don't have a gluten allergy.

[Guest guest]

OK – here are my 2 pence-worth on the subject..... J

Datis Kharazian says, and I quote:

A TPO and TGB serum antibody test helps identify Hashimoto's. A negative test is sometimes false as the immune system fluctuates. If symptoms strongly suggest the disease, repeat tests should be done to confirm the diagnosis. Sometimes is its necessary to challenge the patient with gluten before an antibody test.

Numerous studies have shown a link between gluten intolerance and Hashimoto's . If you have the disease, eat a gluten-free diet, avoiding wheat and wheat-like grains such as barley, rye, spelt, triticale, kamut and oats. The gluten molecule is very similar to the thyroid gland molecule, which confuses the overzealous immune system in a gluten-intolerant person. (intolerant! -which is not the same as suffering from celiac disease!!)

I think the above is self-explanatory. Celiac antibodies are obviously not the same as thyroid antibodies, but when TPO and TgAB are present in positive numbers in the bloodstream (which is diagnostic for Hashimoto's disease) it would be prudent to avoid gluten, because if there were gluten in the blood stream (where is shouldn't be, but might be because of leaky gut syndrome - a problem a lot of Hashi's suffer from) the thyroid autoantibodies (TPO and/or TgAB) will increase in numbers and attack the thyroid gland, because the immune system misidentifies the gluten particles for thyroid molecules.

By the same token – if a person with Hashimoto's disease (even when not suffering from celiac disease) eats a lot of gluten, the thyroid autoantibodies might be higher than they would be if the same person were to abstain from eating gluten..... and I think that is all Datis Kharrazian is pointing out – If you have Hashimoto's, avoid gluten, is the message. Thereby you can keep down the numbers of thyroid autoantibodies and that in turn reduces the attacks on the thyroid gland.... and if a Hashi wants to bring up the numbers of thyroid autoantibodies for demonstration purposes, then eat some gluten..... at least this is how I understand this whole business J

Love,

[Guest guest]

Exactly. If i eat gluten day before TPO test, my antibodies increase, sometimes

100 units. It took me 1/2 year to be on gluten free diet to decrease TPO from 80

to 18. I dont have gluten sensativity or celiac, but decide to stay gluten free

forever.

Antanas

>

>

> OK – here are my 2 pence-worth on the subject..... J

>

> Datis Kharazian says, and I quote:

>

> A TPO and TGB serum antibody test helps identify Hashimoto's. A

> negative test is sometimes false as the immune system fluctuates. If

> symptoms strongly suggest the disease, repeat tests should be done to

> confirm the diagnosis. Sometimes is its necessary to challenge the

> patient with gluten before an antibody test.

>

> Numerous studies have shown a link between gluten intolerance and

> Hashimoto's . If you have the disease, eat a gluten-free diet,

> avoiding wheat and wheat-like grains such as barley, rye, spelt,

> triticale, kamut and oats. The gluten molecule is very similar to the

> thyroid gland molecule, which confuses the overzealous immune system in

> a gluten-intolerant person. (intolerant! -which is not the same as

> suffering from celiac disease!!)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Does that mean that you have an antibody test, with a low result, then eat

gluten for a day, have another antibody test, and find a high result?

Antibodies can vary enormously over time, so unless you tested in the manner

above, how would you know it was not just a coincidence, based on fluctuation

which would have happened anyway?

Miriam

> Exactly. If i eat gluten day before TPO test, my antibodies increase,

sometimes 100 units. It took me 1/2 year to be on gluten free diet to decrease

TPO from 80 to 18. I dont have gluten sensativity or celiac, but decide to stay

gluten free forever.

>

[Guest guest]

Antibodies can vary enormously over time, so unless you tested in the mannerabove, how would you know it was not just a coincidence, based on fluctuationwhich would have happened anyway?

Yes, you are correct, Miriam - antibodies vary constantly in numbers. Gluten is not the only trigger factor that makes their numbers active – Stress is probably trigger No.1, chemicals of all kinds No. 2 (vaccinations, toxic household cleaners, heavy metals, some cosmetics ...) - the list is endless.

Bear in mind that Hashimoto's is essentially not a disease of the thyroid gland – it is an autoimmune disease. The thyroid gland, which would work just fine and mind its own business, gets attacked and its function eventually destroyed by the body's own immune system. This is the difference between antibodies (the body's police against intruder cells) and autoantibodies. Autoimmunity means that the respective antibodies (in case of Hashimoto's those are the TPO's and/or TgAB's) have gone haywire. The predisposition for developing autoimmunity is believed to be genetic, but every autoimmune disease needs a trigger to become activated. So some trigger factors have over-stimulated the immune system and that has triggered the respective antibodies into confusing legitimate "targets" – intruder cells like viruses, cancer cells etc - with illegitimate targets, i.e. the body's own healthy cells. They now no longer police the body against intruder cells, but they misidentify and open "friendly" fire, so to speak, and destroy everything in their path. Once autoimmunity has been triggered, there is no turning back. This is something all autoimmune diseases (endocrine and non-endocrine) have in common. There is no cure, only treatment.

But it is possible with most autoimmune condition to get them into remission – firstly with the appropriate treatment, but also by avoiding as much as possible the trigger factors. Excessive stress is the greatest factor ... hence we must avoid it; gluten is another ... so try to avoid it; chemicals is another ... eat organic as much as possible, and so it goes on. Look upon autoantibodies as an injured bull in the body's arena – he is not likely to just lie down and let you injure him more. He will charge at the slightest provocation; and so will our autoantibodies. It's not just gluten, gluten is only one of the provocations, and it is us Hashi's with bowel problems (not necessarily Celiac) for whom gluten is a big factor, because when you have leaky gut syndrome (due to Candida for instance or IBS or IBD), minute gluten particles will get through into the blood stream (where they usually would not get to) and this is where the thyroid autoantibodies will gather their armies (increase in numbers) and attack.

Hope I haven't muddied the waters J

Love,

[Guest guest]

Hi there, many of us have hashimoto`s but do not have gluten or food allergy`s .I have contact dermatitis and RA. also maybe another skin problem but no food problems as such.maybe the my skin problems are linked to food but have not noticed anything.! it depends on your immune system. which genes are affected Angel.

[Guest guest]

Yes, stress is very important, because weak adrenals - weak immunity.

You should have zero antibodies to say you don't have Hashimoto.

If you have any antibodies, low basal temp and hypo symptoms, then you need

treatment.

My antibodies have very strong connection with gluten.

Anyway, there are many theories about hashimoto. One of them lack of iodine and

gluthione.

I have PDF book " Hope for hashimoto " . If someone wants to read, send me private

msg.

Antanas

>

>

> Antibodies can vary enormously over time, so unless you tested in the

> manner

> above, how would you know it was not just a coincidence, based on

> fluctuation

> which would have happened anyway?