Re: Well now I'm in a mess - any advice?

[Guest guest]

Hi Derren

is it the same naturethroid as you were taking in May? Only i wonder if you

chucked it out and bought some more if you are now on the reformulated one?

Have you considered your adrenal function?

2 miles is a lot if your health is bad -that's about 40 mins walking, right? And

if you did it in less, then that's even more of a stress?

Chris

>

> Been posting my story and some of you have been so helpful - thank you all so

much.

[Guest guest]

Now, having stupidly stopped my thyroid meds last May and deteriorated a lot I restarted Nature-Throid in January. Not getting any real results yet although have worked up to 2 grains a day. Not altogether surprised because I have learnt that my thyroid responds oddly and slowly, but obviously disappointed at noprogress.I had to stop my exercise because my muscles (which despite much working out have been wasting away) I was getting a lot of trouble with pain in my muscles.Today I decided I could not go on without doing my exercise so did a couple of miles on my treadmill (walking)

Now in agony and feel lousy - what is going on - any ideas?

Yep... a pretty good idea, actually – in a nutshell.... too much, too fast - your body can't cope.

Since you practically started again from scratch, you should have stayed at ½ grain for the first week, then upped to 1 grain and stayed at that level for about 4 full weeks, before upping by another ½ grain.

Go back to 1 grain now (preferably divided into 2 doses of ½ grain), and stay there for 3-4 weeks before considering the next step to 1 ½ grains. There is one thing you cannot do with NDT – and that's rush it....Each and every time you up your NDT, your body will need about 4 weeks to level out the hormones. There is nothing you can do to speed that process up – so you might as well accept it and go with the flow.

The other thing... do not overdo the exercise. You won't gain anything by going to the gym right now; you will just exhaust your adrenals. I do understand your impatience – but resist the urge. Slowly, slowly, catchy monkey! Go for a leisurely walk for half an hour every day – take the stairs rather than the lift.... this kind of exercise is enough for now. If you overdo it, it will just throw you back to square one.

Good luck,

[Guest guest]

Thanks , I did it that way - half a grain at a time, probably just the

way my body responds. Never had this much pain before though.

And now the twitching eye!!!

Debs

>

>

> Now, having stupidly stopped my thyroid meds last May and deteriorated a

> lot I restarted Nature-Throid in January.

[Guest guest]

Hi there

Same as last time, I've bought some new but using the old up first. Adrenals

defo problem, just started on DHEA.

Yes - two miles is a lot but this time last year I was doing 5, I've just never

responded this way to exercise before and although I've had muscle/joint pain in

the past never as bad as this. odd - maybe I've done more damage than I thought

by stopping?

Having problems with eyes, throat etc which is also different.

I guess I'll just have to be more patient but it's awful hard as I'm so much

worse - I thought re-starting the Nature-Throid would halt the deterioration -

wrong. I'll just have to go with it - but should I switch back to ordinary

thyroxine?

Debs

>

> Hi Derren

>

> is it the same naturethroid as you were taking in May? Only i wonder if you

chucked it out and bought some more if you are now on the reformulated one?

[Guest guest]

Hi Debs,

Muscle pain, and aches.... maybe you can't convert the t4 in the NT....

Have you ever had your reverse t3 measured? Could be that what you need is t3

only for a while?

Why not get your reverse t3 and free t3 measured so you can have a look and see

if theis is causing the problem..... It would tie in with you feeling worse on

more NT..... You'll have to deal with the labs yourself though, most doctors

won't test......

Muscles need loads of protein.... have you tried protien shakes? I use MP max

from myprotein.co.uk.... strawberry flavour is best.

x

>

> Thanks , I did it that way - half a grain at a time, probably just

the way my body responds.

[Guest guest]

Hi

Tried T3 only prior to stopping the meds - made me really ill so have been a bit

wary of doing that again. Had muscle ache and pain before but not to this level.

Am getting plenty of protein - low carb diet.

Don't know what's going on - hunch - done something strange by giving up the

meds and will have to go through hell again until it eases.

Thanks , have eaten and rested so it's eased a bit but this is ridiculous

- more so because I know my GP and Endo won't have a clue so it's down to me to

work it out. Bugger...

Debs x

>

> Hi Debs,

>

> Muscle pain, and aches.... maybe you can't convert the t4 in the

[Guest guest]

Debs,

I've no idea if this is relevant but when I was on a lower dose of thryoid meds,

I always had stiff muscles. I had a personal trainer but sometimes I would

spend the whole hour just doing extensive stretching exercises.... it was never

really right though.

I took matters into my own hands last year and now I take 3 NT and 25 mcg of T3

and I've really noticed that I no longer stiffen up. I'm pretty active anyway

but now I can do things like dig the allotment all day, and not be stiff for

days afterwards.....

It was never exercise that caused the stiff ness..... in fact nothing seemed to

cause it, it was just there all the time.......

x

>

>

> Hi

>

> Tried T3 only prior to stopping the meds - made me really ill so have been a

bit wary of doing that again. Had muscle ache and pain before but not to this

level. Am getting plenty of protein - low carb diet.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks , I did it that way - half a grain at a time, probably just the way my body responds. Never had this much pain before though.And now the twitching eye!!!Hi Debs,

Yes, but if you only started in January and are now up to 2 grains, then you did it too quickly. After the initial ½ grain for at least one week you needed to be on each consecutive ½ grain step for 4 full weeks. The body can't deal with thyroid hormone at a much faster pace and you will get T4 pooling in the blood, which probably causes all the aches and pains you are experiencing.

One grain of Naturethroid is 65 mg and contains 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3, plus unmeasured amounts of T2, T1 and Calcitonin. I know one cannot make a direct comparison between synthetic T4 and NDT, but - just for demonstration purposes - look at the figures… 2 grains represent 76 mcg of T4 plus 18 mcg T3 - and on the basis that T3 is about 4-5 times as potent as T4 - those two grains would represent roughly 150 and 180 mcg of Levothyroxine that got chucked into your system in the space of about 5 weeks…

[Guest guest]

Hi

It's all a bit odd, the exercise isn't causing it but making it a lot worse,

it's odd. It's a real dilema because I work on the computer all the time and the

exercise I do is vital. Today I will try again but break it down into small

segments and see how that goes.

Had this before but not to this extent and usually the exercise doesn't affect

it that much.

I am suspicious now as to whether or not the enforced change I had in HRT is

behind it.

Anyone know anything much about HRT? I am now on Novofem which contains

estradiol hemihydrate and norethisterone acetate. I had to change from Novelle

which contains estradiol valerate and levonorgestrel as they discontinued it. I

need to track down one with the same active ingredients as the Novelle maybe but

haven't found one yet, pharmacist was useless when I had to change.

Personal trainer? sounds brilliant - very Marie !

Debs

x

>

> Debs,

>

> I've no idea if this is relevant but when I was on a lower dose of thryoid

meds, I always had stiff muscles. I had a personal trainer but sometimes I

would spend the whole hour just doing extensive stretching exercises.... it was

never really right though.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks

I will try cutting back perhaps I have gone too quickly, I will cut back today

and see what happens. I had been on thyroxine for some 20 years prior to this so

thought I would tolerate it okay - maybe I need to start with Levo first?

This is much harder than I was expecting and I am horrified by it, I must have

done more damage than I thought by discontinuing the meds.

My GP can't help as he doesn't have the in depth knowledge but he will mostly go

along with what I decide so it's no help my seeing him for this. My endo is of

the opinion there is nothing wrong with my thyroid and whilst I am awaiting my

appointment to be brought forward it will not be of any help. So I have to work

this out for myself - I am hugely grateful for the advice via this forum - thank

you all.

Debs

> To reach a dosage of 2 grains safely from scratch should take an

> absolute minimum of 9 weeks and, if your body were delicate, about 3

> months or even longer.

>

> I would reduce to 1 grain for the next few weeks and see if that helps,

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Sheila

Thank you so much for all your help - I did post the saliva test results - they

are:

Sample 1 11.8 (range 12 to 22)

Sample 2 10.8 (range 5 to 9)

Sample 3 6.2 (range 3 to 7)

Sample 4 1.7 (range 1 to 3)

Total daily cortisol 30.5 (range 21-41)

DHEA

Sample 2 0.24 (range 0.20 to 0.70)

Sample 3 0.13 - low (range 0.6 to 3.0)

Was told resistance stage 3 and recommended a re test in a month.

I have now started on very low dose DHEA as my DHEA has been consistently low

for years.

I was horrified to learn through the forum that I do have Hashi's - why on earth

has no doctor ever told me this? I was under the mis-apprehension that as I had

a sub total thyroidectomy that I could not have Hashi's so have never really

looked into it in depth. I haven't found any in depth info yet though. I will

most certainly be telling my Endo in no uncertain terms that I believe I am hypo

and that this is caused by Hashi's, I suspect she will say that my TSH is fine

and can't possibly be causing my symptoms! But what I have been told here is

that with thyroid antibodies at that level I do have Hashi's despite having had

three quarters of my thyroid removed years ago?

Extensive vitamin tests were done in Barts and they uncovered the vitamin D

deficiency but nothing else. I took prescription strength D but of course they

never followed it up and I know you can get toxicity if you overdo it so I

stopped last year - found some left over so have been taking them!

I have excluded Candida and gluten, I do have problems with lactose and

carbohydrate though.

I am very concerned because the health risks of both Hashi's and low DHEA are

not acceptable and this has gone on for years.

Now I am wondering - have I upped the Nature-throid too quickly? I can cut this

back but haven't taken anything yet today as I am wondering do I continue with

Nature-Throid or do I go back onto Levo? may be that the T3 doesn't suit me? For

the last few days I upped from one and a half grains to 2 so if I cut back do I

cut back to one or one and a half? if I go back to Levo what dose do I start on?

Fuzzy worn out brain is not helping me here!

Debs

>

> Hi Derren

>

>

>

> You tell us that your adrenals are in a mess and that you have started DHEA

> and reading back through your messages, I see that you had the 24 hour

> salivary adrenal profile tested to check your levels of cortisol and DHEA a

[Guest guest]

Hello Debs,

I was horrified to learn through the forum that I do have Hashi's - why on earth has no doctor ever told me this? I was under the mis-apprehension that as I had a sub total thyroidectomy that I could not have Hashi's so have never really looked into it in depth.

OK, I do understand that you feel a bit put out that your doctor has not told you that you have Hashi's... but she presumably did tell you that you have thyroiditis, yes? – which means "inflamed thyroid gland". So from her point of view she wouldn't have deceived you - she probably just did not put much importance on whatever caused the inflammation of the gland.

`Hashimoto's' was termed after a Japanese gentleman who discovered that specific autoantibodies are responsible for destroying the thyroid gland, I believe. There are different causes that can affect the thyroid function and lead to an inflamed thyroid gland, and whether it is autoantibodies, viral infection, bacterial infection, genetic predisposition, cancer or old age – the end result will be the same – hypothyroidism. Also, the treatment will be the same – thyroid hormone supplementation. Nothing – as far as your treatment is concerned – would have been different had you known from the outset that your thyroiditis has been caused by autoantibody-attacks. It is believed that 90% (although some scientists put this figure lower) of all hypothyroidism is caused by autoimmunity. But whether the thyroid gland is under attack from AA's or viruses or gets inflamed due to a bacterial infection or stops working due to old age or because of some genetic defect is of no particular consequence.... at the end of whichever process the thyroid gland will be dead as a dodo and unable to produce any more thyroid hormone. In case of thyroid cancer the end result will also be the same... by means of a thyroidectomy the gland gets removed... so the patient is rendered hypothyroid.

You had a partial thyroidectomy... so there is still thyroid tissue left which can be attacked... and if your initial thyroiditis had been caused by AA's (very likely) the remaining autoantibodies will still have something they can attack and destroy. Only when your thyroid gland has reached the end stadium will your thyroiditis turn into true "hypothyroidism" and your autoantibodies will disappear.

One value of `knowing' what causes your thyroid condition lays in the fact that you will be forewarned. Having one autoimmune condition puts you at a higher risk of developing other autoimmune conditions of both, an endocrine or non-endocrine nature. So you can reduce your risk factors by avoiding certain foods, reduce exposure to certain chemicals and toxins, vaccinations, excessive stress and so on. On the other hand – people with a thyroid condition have lowered immunity anyway and should take the same precautions as a person with autoimmunity.

I will most certainly be telling my Endo in no uncertain terms that I believe I am hypo and that this is caused by Hashi's, I suspect she will say that my TSH is fine and can't possibly be causing my symptoms! But what I have been told here is that with thyroid antibodies at that level I do have Hashi's despite having hadthree quarters of my thyroid removed years ago?

Yes – this is another valuable reason for knowing your condition is caused by autoimmunity .... in case of untreated Hashimoto's the TSH is a very unreliable tool to judge the thyroid function... people with Hashi's can present with perfectly normal TSH values. As the autoimmune condition fluctuates between attacks and remission, the TSH will vary wildly. When an autoimmune flare-up destroys thyroid tissue, hormones stored in the gland flow into the bloodstream ... and the TSH will subsequently show up low or "normal". This is why Hashimoto's is so often missed or misdiagnosed.

....they uncovered the vitamin D deficiency but nothing else. I took prescription strength D but of course they never followed it up and I know you can get toxicity if you overdo it so I stopped last year - found some left over so have been taking them!

Prescription strength... - which strength would that be, Debs? Please have a look at the bottle. If you are D3 deficient, you will need between 2000 and 5000 iu per day (depending on how low you are). During the winter I take 4000 iu per day, during summer 2000 iu per day. To reach D3 toxicity you would have to take mega, mega doses (more than 10,000 iu per day). Also bear in mind that D3 has a half life of only 60 days... so if you have not supplemented for a while you are very likely to be deficient again.

Now I am wondering - have I upped the Nature-throid too quickly? I can cut this back but haven't taken anything yet today as I am wondering do I continue with Nature-Throid or do I go back onto Levo? may be that the T3 doesn't suit me? Forthe last few days I upped from one and a half grains to 2 so if I cut back do I cut back to one or one and a half? if I go back to Levo what dose do I start on?

Yes, you have gone up too quickly, but to my mind there is no good reason to go back onto Levo, nor, IMHO, would it be a good idea. You have done well on Naturethroid in the past, if I remember correctly you saying so, and you will most likely do well on it again... but you have to give the body time to adjust. You haven't taken any thyroid hormone for nearly a year – so now the body needs to slowly get used to the influx of T3 again.

Given your aches and pains – if it were me – I would go back to 1 grain for at least a week to 10 days and see what happens and then take it from there. In my personal experience muscle aches are either down to an imbalance in sex hormone (mostly oestrogen) or too much T4 pooling in the blood stream. Your adrenal profile looked pretty good, but your DHEA is a little low and you are correcting this at present... again – that takes time.... at least 6 to 8 weeks before you might feel any benefit there – I'm afraid with our `hormone business' we all need to have a lot of patience....

With best wishes,

[Guest guest]

Hey

Nope - never at any point other than when I was 11 years old was I told that I

had thyroiditis. I have been told consistently that I simply do not have a

thyroid problem, God only knows why they operated when I was in my 20's as they

were still saying I didn't have a thyroid problem but changed their minds to

give me a sub total thyroidectomy!

Since that time doctors have denied that I have any thyroid problem, I managed

to get onto thyroxine because Dr Skinner prescribed it years ago and subsequent

GP's have continued to prescribe it for me even though all endocrinologists

since deny that I have a thyroid problem. I find it interesting that my own

thyroid is still actually producing something on it's own.

I think that if I do have Hashi's and with all the thyroid related problems I

have it simply adds weight to the fact that I do actually need medication and

would be foolish to attempt to give it up again. Hashi's would probably explain

my mixed symptoms through the years would it not? The reason I gave up on the

meds was that I came to the conclusion that the doctors must be right and I must

be wrong, the deterioration since suggests otherwise to me.

Just checked the D I had - if it is right on the bottle I am on 250mcgs

Calciferol a week - I thought it was stronger but maybe that was the first dose

I was put on.

I would, in an ideal world like to be off all meds - the changes to my body ie.

hair loss, nails, bloating etc all became unmanageable after I was put on

thyroxine and HRT so I wonder what did cause it all. The thyroid symptoms have

been virtually lifelong - would I have been better just leaving it? I don't

know.

I've taken your advice and cut back to 1 grain as from today and I have managed

to do a slow walk on my treadmill but cut back to just a mile. I am aware how

powerful hormones are and maybe I did just try and go too fast after best part

of a year off.

Yup - sex hormones have been out of balance for at least 20 years to my

knowledge, am placing a lot of faith in the DHEA to help but again I have

started with a very, very low dose - just 5 - so not expecting anything for a

long time yet.

Someone else on the forum said my adrenals did not look fine at all so I am

utterly confused about that, I do have an adrenal adenoma which I am told is of

no consequence (I would go with that if I didn't have these symptoms!) I also

get pain in my adrenal area so am a tad suspicious. Genova said stage 3

resistance and that I should re-test - don't really know if that is significant

or not. I'm not sure adrenals are too good - I have a great startle reflex these

days! of course I don't handle stress as well as I used to - all the usual

really.

All I know for sure is that I'm sick to the back teeth of my thyroid, I'm too

old to continue to have the level of patience I need…BUT over the past two years

it has gone into some sort of remmission each summer - so there is a tiny bit

of hope on the horizon, I just have to try and figure out what I can do to make

it go back into a remmission of sorts (half a life is better than none I guess)

and try my best to keep it there. In all honesty I'm not convinced I have that

much say over it, my thyroid seems to be a law unto itself!

Thanks you so much for all your help

Debs

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Hello Debs,

>

> I was horrified to learn through the forum that I do have Hashi's - why

> on earth has no doctor ever told me this?

[Guest guest]

Hey

Isn't it astonishing? I was really, seriously ill at 11 with this and had the

same old crap then - 'there's nothing wrong' of course there was and it was bad.

Years on and the same crap - only this time all of a sudden they changed their

minds and said I was thyrotoxic so they could remove it for me (too kind!) of

course years of going through the same old thing and without access to the sort

of information we have today I simply thought I would be cured. Hindsight is a

wonderful thing, I would never have had that op if I had known, if it's a choice

between the two evils give me hyper not hypo!

I have no idea what's really up with my thyroid - all I know for sure is that

with my history this is my thyroid, can I cure it? no, can it be better than it

is - God I hope so.

I don't fully understand Hashi's if I'm honest about it but certainly the

discomfort in my neck could be explained by this, always dismissed it as only

having a quarter of the thyroid left assumed it couldn't be this! Of course the

mixed hyper and hypo symptoms would make sense I guess.

Have always been told that I don't have a thyroid problem, nearly believed them

but to be honest I was virtually born with a thyroid problem so I think that by

now I know my body better than the doctors do. I don't think I have that many

decades left to sort this out lol - this will polish me off one way or another,

that I know for sure!

I will look more into the vitamin D thing when I get my next appointment - there

should be some results from my latest test which has so far not been shared with

me.

Yes, I am still on HRT, can't get off it - many attempts but it has without

doubt contributed to my problems and I now know that barring a miracle (and I'm

not yet ruling DHEA out)this education is for life.

Cut back the Nature-Throid yesterday and am going to keep going with the

exercise just much less and much slower (which will drive me nuts!)

I am now utterly confused about my adrenals - if as you say they are normal then

it's not worth my while taking anything for them so maybe I have been wrong in

suspecting they are not working properly - might just be clutching at straws,

just thought that with the symptoms, the pain and the adenoma coupled with what

I thought were odd results it might be a factor.

I will keep battling away, it's hard and depressing but I will try - thank you

so much for the support .

Debs

> Don't give up, Debs. You deserve better than `half a life'

> – we all do! It is true, btw, the body needs usually a little less

> thyroid hormone during the summer than winter – could be to do with

> naturally having higher D3 levels during the summer.... so bring up your

> D3 and that alone should help a great deal. I know it is a long flog

> back to good health, but worth the wait. Just take it a day at a time

> and hopefully in a few more weeks you will wake up and suddenly realize

> that you are better....

>

>

>

> Warm wishes,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila

Thanks so much for getting back to me again, I'm really confused now because

someone else on the forum said these results looked normal and I don't want to

take any other meds if I don't need them. I was sure there was an adrenal

problem but am now doubting it. I'm sure the Endo will say this is normal and I

don't know if I have a strong argument against that.

I have reduced my meds back to one grain for now and am taking the exercise more

slowly. I am also taking a quality multi-vitamin and the DHEA, the DHEA is very

low dose so I can see how it settles with me (I have tendency to be intolerant

to a lot of stuff these days!)

I tried to work through the lactose intolerant with my GP and with the

pharmacist - usual problems so I gave up. I think I can tolerate the lactose in

the meds as this is an intolerance and not an allergy, although obviously

lactose free would be the preferred choice.

Gosh Sheila - I hate my thyroid and all that goes with it, I just think that all

I can do is take it steady and hope that the Nature-Throid kicks in soon. But I

am really confused by that saliva test result!

Debs

>

> Hi Debs,

> Sample 1 11.8 (range 12 to 22) - This should be at its highest in the range

> to get you through the days chores. It is outside the bottom of the range.

> Sample 2 10.8 (range 5 to 9) - This is above the top of the range. At this

> time, your cortisol level should be starting to lower.

> Sample 3 6.2 (range 3 to 7) - Again, this is far too high.

> Sample 4 1.7 (range 1 to 3) - This is fine, as cortisol production should be

> low at this time to allow you to sleep well.

> Total daily cortisol 30.5 (range 21-41)

> You need to carry on with your DHEA replacement and you should start using

> Nutri Adrenal Extra

[Guest guest]

Hi Debs,

Yes, I am still on HRT, can't get off it - many attempts but it has without doubt contributed to my problems and I now know that barring a miracle (and I'm not yet ruling DHEA out)this education is for life.I am now utterly confused about my adrenals - if as you say they are normal then it's not worth my while taking anything for them so maybe I have been wrong in suspecting they are not working properly - might just be clutching at straws, just thought that with the symptoms, the pain and the adenoma coupled with what I thought were odd results it might be a factor.

No, sorry, I did not make this clear.... I meant to say that your adrenal results don't look too bad... but that's not the same as `normal'. "Really bad" would be when the first figure is around 1 to 4 (yours was 11, so `only' 1 point below the lowest `normal' reference), and the subsequent figures in a really bad result would also crawl around at the bottom outside the ref range, so the graph would look like a fairly `flat' line in the `red' field. – But whilst your adrenal results did not appear to look too bad, the information about you being on HRT could mean that this has invalidated your result and as far as I am concerned, all bets are off. Any kind of exogenous steroid (like HRT, Progesterone, cortisone – you name it), particularly when taken for years, will change the adrenal stress profile and (presumably) make the cortisol level look more `normal' than it really is.... at least I think it is this way round. So what your adrenal function really looks like is anybody's guess.

I have found in my files the following, which is taken from an article by Dr. Peatfield explaining about adrenal fatigue and the signs and symptoms to look out for....

So what do we look for in the way of symptoms? It is rarely clear cut, because the deficiency is so often part of another illness, and may therefore have something of the symptoms of both. We are particularly concerned with thyroid deficiency, which, if of longstanding, or fairly severe in degree, is most often associated with adrenal insufficiency, as well as a direct result of the stress on the system low thyroid function will cause.

The patient will complain of weakness and episodes of prostration, frequently feeling quite unwell without being able to pinpoint the cause. Episodes of dizziness, sometimes cold sweats, caused by the blood sugar becoming abnormally low, are not uncommon. Often, an odd internal shivering is described. Aches and pains of a rheumatic nature are other frequent complaints. The patient often complains of the cold, and is likely to be cold to the touch. The subject does not feel well, and may look ill, with dark rings under the eyes, and a general pallor. There are likely to be digestive problems, with excessive wind and bloating, and bowel disturbances. The menstrual cycle may be disturbed, or absent and libido low. Depression and anxiety may also be a feature. Some of the symptoms complained of by patients with M.E. -- Myalgic Encephalitis -- are very similar, leading to the well-grounded suspicion that M.E. is associated with low adrenal reserve. Certainly, frequent minor illnesses are common, with an overlong course of quite minor infections, which may also have an unusually severe effect on the patient.

Low thyroid function has some of these features, and it may be difficult to distinguish one from the other; In fact it should not be necessary because, as I pointed out above, as the two are often together, so too must the treatment overlap and be designed to relieve both.

The complications of treating hypothyroid or under active thyroid patients, is that their consequent poor adrenal reserve may become suddenly obvious, as soon as the thyroid is treated. The thyroid supplementation may, at worst, precipitate the adrenal problem; but what usually happens, is that the thyroid replacement may either not apparently work at all, or the patient may have thyroid over dosage symptoms on quite a low level of replacement. Hence, where low adrenal reserve is suspected, it is possibly dangerous, and certainly ill advised, to treat the patient without supplementation of the adrenals, in the manner explained further below.

If a high index of suspicion of adrenal insufficiency is raised by the history given by the patient, then what are the signs the doctor looks for to establish the diagnosis? Actually, it is sometimes difficult where the problem is not particularly severe; but there are some pointers. The blood pressure is usually quite low, often very strikingly so. The difference between the lying, (or sitting) blood pressure, and the standing one, may be very important. Normally, it rises when the patient stands. In low adrenal reserve, it either does not change at all, or lowers further. The pupil reflex is slow, or unstable, or even reversed, to bright light. Reflexes may be abnormal, especially the Achilles reflex -- in the heel. The heart sound is characteristically altered.

It is satisfactory to confirm the clinical impression by blood tests; but these sometimes are unhelpful. The level of cortisone in the blood may be measured, but it is widely variable. However, DHEA, mentioned above, is quite a good indicator of adrenal cortex function.

If "the shoe fits" above, then it is very likely that your adrenals are indeed quite poorly and in need of all the support – so don't you go and stop it Just carry on supporting them.

It is quite possible that you can't `get off' HRT, because that would show up the lack of cortisol, and that in combination with not being on top of your thyroid problem it all becomes too much .... but perhaps it "might" be possible to switch to a different kind of HRT, namely the bio-identical Serenity Cream, which has none of the side effects many women get with HRT

http://www.progesterone.org.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info & cPath=65 & products_id=180 & zenid=6be9cd7d998a9eeacf441e50f4b60b39

..... although I am not the one to ask about how to best regulate sex hormones; I am struggling with that myself, but must say that Serenity cream has helped me a great deal.

With best wishes,

[Guest guest]

.......Any kind of exogenous steroid.....

Sorry Debs - I meant to say hormones, not steroids (although that excludes thyroid hormone) .... - sorry, must be getting tired !

love,

[Guest guest]

Hi

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to me, I really appreciate it.

I don't know about the adrenals at all now, I know my endo will dismiss it and

it doesn't look like I have a strong case to present, I'm sure the HRT has done

me a lot of damage and may well be a factor and scew the results.

Interesting snippet there - my blood pressure and blood sugar tend to be high

rather than low. I'm working on the DHEA factor as I know for certain this has

been really low for years and I'm horrified by the associations it has to

serious illness, taking it very, very slowly though.

There has been an Italian study, albeit a very small one, that showed very

favourable results for DHEA as a substitute for HRT, this may well be my last

hope if I am ever to get off the stuff - hopeful but not set on it.

I am also a smoker and read recently that this causes the TSH to test lower than

it actually is (don't know how much lower though) so I may well be above the 5.8

anyway.

Still feel like crap but have been able to do a small amount on the treadmill

over the last couple of days but just doing it like an old lady which is

frustrating to say the least.

Glad the Serenity has helped you, it didn't help me but then again I think I'm

in quite a mess with my hormones due to being put on high strength HRT when I

never needed them.

Bloody hormones and bloody thyroid!

Take good care, keep well and most of all THANK YOU for helping.

Debs

> .... although I am not the one to ask about how to best regulate sex

> hormones; I am struggling with that myself, but must say that Serenity

> cream has helped me a great deal.

>

>

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> With best wishes,

>

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