Re: New diagonsis... Help

[Guest guest]

You don't say what dosage of thyroxine your doctor started you on, or how often

they make an increase, and what that increase is.

For example, my GP started me on 25 mcg thyroxine and would only increase by 25

mcg every 2 months, so it took me 6 months to reach 100 mcg.

It also depends on how long you have been ill, how long you might take to

recover. If your low thyroid was picked up on straight away and you quickly

reach the right dosage, you might feel better within a few months. If it is a

problem of long standing it could take a few years to get back to normal.

Miriam

> Hi, I'm new to this site. I have been diagnosed about 5 weeks ago with very

low thyroid and tsh was about 42. After taking Levo, I had a second blood test

and thyroid back to normal but tsh was rising. Continued with meds still feeling

yuck. Had another blood test and it's coming down. I am still feeling very tired

and had a bad day yesterday. I understand everyone is different but

>

> How long does it take till your body levels out? And

> Do u still have bad days once your body has been stable?

> Does it get better from here?

[Guest guest]

Ha sorry, not much info given by myself. I have been on 50mg and haven't

changed. I think I have been affected for at least 18 mths to 2 yrs. But only

just diagnosed. Does the tiredness mean I need to increase the dose? I am still

snappy and very tired or do I need the doctor to check other levels. A friend

suggested b12 and iron. Are there any others I should check?

I know when I Over do it I feel worse...

Thanks in advance .

>

> You don't say what dosage of thyroxine your doctor started you on, or how

often they make an increase, and what that increase is.

>

> For example, my GP started me on 25 mcg thyroxine and would only increase by

25 mcg every 2 months, so it took me 6 months to reach 100 mcg.

[Ed]

[Guest guest]

Hello and welcome,

There is so much to say and so much for you to learn – where do I start?

Perhaps the first step for you would be to order Dr. Peatfield's book "your thyroid and how to keep it healthy" – you can buy it from Amazon and it's under a tenner, but worth its weight in gold.

Next thing – before I forget to mention it.... please always ask your doctor for copies of any blood tests, inclusive of ref ranges. You have a right to get copies, so don't feel shy to ask. When you post, we always need to know your medication and lab results with ref ranges, since every lab has slightly (or not so slightly) different ones.

So you were started on 50 mcg Levothyroxine and whilst your FT4 rose a bit, your TSH went still up.... then you had another test and presumably your TSH is now coming down.....

Before I go on.... as you will learn more about this whole business, you will begin to understand that the term "normal" to us is like a red cloth to an injured bull. To our doctors "normal" is anything inside a (sometimes considerably wide) reference range with no regard for whereabouts in this "normal" range the figure lies. So "normal" more often than not means not "normal" at all... hence us always asking for the actual figures.

If your thyroid results had become "normal" after taking 50 mcg of Levothyroxine with a TSH of 42, it would have been a small miracle. It is unlikely that you will feel anywhere like your old self until you are on a decent amount of thyroid replacement.... possibly somewhere between 125 and 250 mcg of Levothyroxine if – and that is a big IF – Levothyroxine is the right medication for you. Judging by you saying that you still feel `yuck' after 5 weeks on the meds, I would guess that something else might be going on. I would not expect you to feel considerably better, but I would expect you to feel marginally better, IF all were going in the right direction. So I conclude that it is not.

The following is taken from our files, and your friend is very right in suggesting that perhaps B12 or iron might be "out".... actually, it is not just those two you need to get checked, but ask your GP to check –

Ferritin, Folate, Magnesium, Zinc, Copper, B12 and D3... if you were low (even if low inside the ref ranges) your body would not be able to utilize the thyroid hormone you are taking.

But this is not all.... please read the following – you need to consider each and every point and – if it applies – it needs to get rectified. You can't expect any kind or amount of thyroid hormone to work until and unless you can rule out each of the following points.

In case you have not already seen the information below, I am posting it again so you can check through all of this by way of a process of elimination in case you might have any of these associated conditions.

There are MANY reasons and many medical conditions associated with thyroid disease that stop thyroid hormone from getting into the cells, where it does its work. I mention these over and over and over again - ad nauseum - people must be bored with the same old, same old but as each new member joins us, they need to know. The main condition responsible for stopping thyroid hormone from working, is, quite simply, a patients thyroxine dose is too low because the doctor or consultant refuses to increase it, because the serum thyroid function test results appear OK. Sometimes, the thyroxine dose is too high, yet patients still don't feel well. They continue to suffer. Some reasons for this:

They may be suffering with low adrenal reserve. The production of T4, its conversion to T3, and the receptor uptake requires a normal amount of adrenal hormones, notably, of course, cortisone. (Excess cortisone can shut production down, however.) This is what happens if the adrenals are not responding properly, and provision of cortisone usually switches it on again. But sometimes it doesn't. If the illness has been going on for a long time, the enzyme seems to fail. This conversion failure (inexplicably denied by many endocrinologists) means the thyroxine builds up, unconverted. So it doesn't work, and T4 toxicosis results. This makes the patient feel quite unwell, toxic, often with palpitations and chest pain. If provision of adrenal support doesn't remedy the situation, the final solution is the use of the active thyroid hormone, already converted, T3 - either synthetic or natural

Then, we have systemic candidiasis. This is where candida albicans, a yeast, which causes skin infections almost anywhere in the body, invades the lining of the lower part of the small intestine and the large intestine. Here, the candida sets up residence in the warmth and the dark, and demands to be fed. Loving sugars and starches, candida can make you suffer terrible sweet cravings. Candida can produce toxins which can cause very many symptoms of exhaustion, headache, general illness, and which interfere with the uptake of thyroid and adrenal treatment. Sometimes the levels - which we usually test for - can be very high, and make successful treatment difficult to achieve until adequately treated.

Then there is receptor resistance which could be a culprit. Being hypothyroid for some considerable time may mean the biochemical mechanisms which permit the binding of T3 to the receptors, is downgraded - so the T3 won't go in. With slow build up of T3, with full adrenal support and adequate vitamins and minerals, the receptors do come on line again. But this can be quite a slow process, and care has to be taken to build the dose up gradually.

And then there are Food allergies. The most common food allergy is allergy to gluten, the protein fraction of wheat. The antibody generated by the body, by a process of molecular mimicry, cross reacts with the thyroperoxidase enzyme, (which makes thyroxine) and shuts it down. So allergy to bread can make you hypothyroid. There may be other food allergies with this kind of effect, but information on these is scanty. Certainly allergic response to certain foods can affect adrenal function and imperil thyroid production and uptake.

Then we have hormone imbalances. The whole of the endocrine system is linked; each part of it needs the other parts to be operating normally to work properly. An example of this we have seen already, with cortisone. But another example is the operation of sex hormones. The imbalance that occurs at the menopause with progesterone running down, and a relative dominance of oestrogen is a further case in point – oestrogen dominance downgrades production, transportation and uptake of thyroid hormones. This is why hypothyroidism may first appear at the menopause; the symptoms ascribed to this alone, which is then treated – often with extra oestrogen, making the whole thing worse. Deficiency in progesterone most especially needs to be dealt with, since it reverses oestrogen dominance, improves many menopausal symptoms like sweats and mood swings, and reverses osteoporosis. Happily natural progesterone cream is easily obtained: when used it has the added benefit of helping to stabilise adrenal function.

Then, we must never forget the possibility of mercury poisoning (through amalgam fillings) - low levels of ferritin, vitamin B12, vitamin D3, magnesium, folate, copper and zinc - all of which, if low, stop the thyroid hormone from being utilised by the cells - these have to be treated. Should your GP or endocrinologist try to tell you that there is no association between low levels of these specific minerals and vitamins and low thyroid status, print off the information at the bottom of this message to show him just some of the references to research/studies to show that there is.***

As Dr Peatfield says "When you have been quite unwell for a long time, all these problems have to be dealt with; and since each may affect the other, it all has to be done rather carefully.

Contrary to cherished beliefs by much of the medical establishment, the correction of a thyroid deficiency state has a number of complexities and variables, which make the treatment usually quite specific for each person. The balancing of these variables is as much up to you as to me – which is why a check of morning, day and evening temperatures and pulse rates, together with symptoms, good and bad, can be so helpful.

Many of you have been ill for a long time, either because you have not been diagnosed, or the treatment leaves you still quite unwell. Those of you who have relatively mild hypothyroidism, and have been diagnosed relatively quickly, may well respond to synthetic thyroxine, the standard treatment. I am therefore unlikely to see you; since if the thyroxine proves satisfactory in use, it is merely a question of dosage.

For many of you, the outstanding problem is not that the diagnosis has not been made – although, extraordinarily, this is disgracefully common – but that is has, and the thyroxine treatment doesn't work. The dose has been altered up and down, and clinical improvement is variable and doesn't last, in spite of blood tests, which say you are perfectly all right (and therefore you are actually depressed and need this fine antidepressant).

The above problems must be eliminated if thyroid hormone isn't working for you.

Should your GP or endocrinologist tell you that there is no connection between these minerals or vitamin levels and hypothyroidism, then copy the following links out to show him/her

Good luck!

***Low iron/ferritin: Iron deficiency is shown to significantly reduce T4 to T3 conversion, increase reverse T3 levels, and block the thermogenic (metabolism boosting) properties of thyroid hormone (1-4). Thus, iron deficiency, as indicated by an iron saturation below 25 or a ferritin below 70, will result in diminished intracellular T3 levels. Additionally, T4 should not be considered adequate thyroid replacement if iron deficiency is present (1-4)).

1. Dillman E, Gale C, Green W, et al. Hypothermia in iron deficiency due to altered triiodithyroidine metabolism. Regulatory, Integrative and Comparative Physiology 1980;239(5):377-R381.

2. SM, PE, Lukaski HC. In vitro hepatic thyroid hormone deiodination in iron-deficient rats: effect of dietary fat. Life Sci 1993;53(8):603-9.

3. Zimmermann MB, Köhrle J. The Impact of Iron and Selenium Deficiencies on Iodine and Thyroid Metabolism: Biochemistry and Relevance to Public Health. Thyroid 2002;12(10): 867-78.

4. Beard J, tobin B, Green W. Evidence for Thyroid Hormone Deficiency in Iron-Deficient Anemic Rats. J. Nutr. 1989;119:772-778.

Low vitamin B12: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18655403

Low vitamin D3: http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/abstract/113/3/329 and http://www.goodhormonehealth.com/VitaminD.pdf

Low magnesium: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC292768/pdf/jcinvest00264-0105.pdf

Low folate: http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/47/9/1738 and http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/thy.1999.9.1163

Low copper http://www.ithyroid.com/copper.htm

http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/copper_toxicity_syndrome.htm

http://www.ithyroid.com/copper.htm

http://www.rjpbcs.com/pdf/2011_2(2)/68.pdf

http://ajplegacy.physiology.org/content/171/3/652.extract

Low zinc:http://www.istanbul.edu.tr/ffdbiyo/current4/07%20Iham%20AM%C4%B0R.pdf and http://articles.webraydian.com/article1648-Role_of_Zinc_and_Copper_in_Effective_Thyroid_Function.html

Ferritin levels for women need to be between 100 and 130 for women (for men around between 150 and 170)

Vitamin B12 needs to be at the top of the range.

D3 levels need to be top of the range.

Magnesium levels need to be at the top of the range, it's one thing that often gets missed.

In answer to your other questions....

How long does it take till your body levels out?

You will have to up your level of thyroid replacement every 4-6 weeks. It takes at least 4 weeks for the hormones to level out. So every 4-6 weeks you need to up the dosage by another 25 mcg and see how you feel.... but it will only work if you take the above into account. There is no point in upping the level when any of the above points are being ignored – it will just make you thyrotoxic and feel awful....

Do u still have bad days once your body has been stable?

Yes. You will always have bad days and good days even when you are on your optimal dose, particularly if you suffer from Hashimoto's (autoimmune thyroiditis). But those "bad days" should not feel as bad as they feel now. You should improve all along the way. There are precautions you can take, like adjusting your diet etc, but we all have bad days when the autoantibodies launch an attack on the thyroid gland....usually followed by a couple of "good" days, because thyroid hormones will be pushed out into the blood stream after such an attack.... On the whole though, you should be getting better and better – if you don't, something is adrift.

Does it get better from here?

Yes. Once you are on your optimal replacement dose, you should feel back more of less to your old self. This does take, however, several months ... usally 8-12 months, if all goes well – longer, if there are obstacles in the way. Does the tiredness mean I need to increase the dose?Not in the sense you mean.... whichever thyroid hormones you are on, you increase your dose no more often than every ~ 4 weeks. However, the dose you are on right now is a baby starter dose.... you won't feel much better until you are at least above 100 mcg – given that you should increase by 25 mcg every 4 weeks or so, that feel good factor might be about 8 weeks away, provided that your minerals and minerals are at the right levels, you do not suffer from Candida, you do not have a conversion problem (you might!) or food allergies, or whatever else is going on.

You very likely also need to support your adrenal function – so please do read up about adrenals in our files. Most hypos have low adrenal reserve.... no point, btw, raising this subject with your doctor. The medical establishment does not recognize adrenal fatigue and you will just meet with raised eyebrows – doesn't mean it does not exist though... it most certainly does, but you will have to help yourself in rectifying that.

But I am already overloading you with information.... so first things first – read, read, read... and buy Dr. Peatfield's book and read some more.

Any questions – yell.... we are all here to help.

With best wishes,

[Guest guest]

Thankyou . It's great to know I have support and I'm not alone. I

didn't mention, but I am British but have been living in New Zealand for the

last five years. It seems from what I have read that patients in the uk have a

rough time with their doc. I

On the Other hand have been quite lucky, my doc called me as soon as he had the

results. I will write a more In depth e. Mail over the weekend. Is this the best

way to email you? Or can I do it privately??

Thank you for your time. It means a lot.

>

>

> Hello and welcome,

>

> There is so much to say and so much for you to learn – where do I

> start?

>

moderated: Please remove most of the message to which you are replying when

posting on the forum. Thank you. moderator.

[Guest guest]

, it can take a long time for some and a shorter time for

others, depending on what level of thyroid hormone replacement you are taking.

However, there are quite a few associated conditions that you must take into

account and you need to go through these by way of a process of elimination.

Any of these, if you are suffering from them can stop the thyroid hormone from

being properly utilised in your cells.

There

are MANY reasons and many medical conditions associated with thyroid disease

that stop thyroid hormone from getting into the cells, where it does its work.

I mention these over and over and over again - ad nauseum - people must be

bored with the same old stuff, but as each new member joins us, they need to

know about these.

The

main condition responsible for stopping thyroid hormone from working is, quite

simply, a patient’s thyroid hormone dose is too low because the doctor or

consultant refuses to increase it, because the serum thyroid function test

results appear OK. Sometimes, the thyroxine dose is too high, yet patients

still don't feel well. They continue to suffer. Some reasons for this:

1.

You may be suffering with low adrenal reserve. The production of T4, its

conversion to T3, and the receptor uptake requires a normal amount of adrenal

hormones, notably, of course, cortisone. (Excess cortisone can shut production

down, however.) This is what happens if the adrenals are not responding

properly, and provision of cortisone usually switches it on again. But

sometimes it doesn’t. If the illness has been going on for a long

time, the enzyme seems to fail. This conversion failure (inexplicably

denied by many endocrinologists) means the thyroxine builds up,

unconverted. So it doesn’t work, and T4 toxicosis results. This

makes the patient feel quite unwell, toxic, often with palpitations and chest

pain. If provision of adrenal support doesn’t remedy the situation, the

final solution is the use of the active thyroid hormone, already converted, T3

- either synthetic or natural. You can check for such a possibility by going to

the FILES SECTION of our forum http://health.grouops//thyroid treatment/files/

and scroll down to the folder entitled 'Medical Questionnaires' and complete

the Adrenal one. Let us know how you score. You can also get the 24 hour

salivary adrenal profile from Genova Diagnostics. See the File entitled

'Discounts on Tests and Supplements'. When ordering, write that Thyroid Patient

Advocacy is your medical practitioner. They will send out a kit to you and the

results will be sent direct to you. When you receive these, post the results on

the forum with the reference ranges and we will help with their interpretation.

2.

Then, we have systemic candidiasis. This is where candida albicans, yeast,

which causes skin infections almost anywhere in the body, invades the lining of

the lower part of the small intestine and the large intestine. Here, the

candida sets up residence in the warmth and the dark, and demands to be

fed. Loving sugars and starches, candida can make you suffer terrible

sweet cravings. Candida can produce toxins which can cause very many

symptoms of exhaustion, headache, general illness, and which interfere with the

uptake of thyroid and adrenal treatment. Sometimes the levels - which we

usually test for - can be very high, and make successful treatment difficult to

achieve until adequately treated. As above, do the 'Candida Questionnaire' and

let us know how you score, and again, you can be tested by Genova Diagnostics

to give you diagnosis.

3.

Then there is receptor resistance which could be a culprit. Being

hypothyroid for some considerable time may mean the biochemical mechanisms

which permit the binding of T3 to the receptors, is downgraded - so the T3

won’t go in. With slow build up of T3, with full adrenal support

and adequate vitamins and minerals, the receptors do come on line again.

But this can be quite a slow process, and care has to be taken to build the

dose up gradually.

4.

And then there are Food allergies. The most common food allergy is allergy to

gluten, the protein fraction of wheat. The antibody generated by the body, by a

process of molecular mimicry, cross reacts with the thyroperoxidase enzyme,

(which makes thyroxine) and shuts it down. So allergy to bread can make

you hypothyroid. There may be other food allergies with this kind of effect,

but information on these is scanty. Certainly allergic response to

certain foods can affect adrenal function and imperil thyroid production and

uptake.

5.

Then we have hormone imbalances. The whole of the endocrine system is linked;

each part of it needs the other parts to be operating normally to work

properly. An example of this we have seen already, with cortisone.

But another example is the operation of sex hormones. The imbalance that

occurs at the menopause with progesterone running down, and a relative

dominance of oestrogen is a further case in point – oestrogen dominance

downgrades production, transportation and uptake of thyroid hormones.

This is why hypothyroidism may first appear at the menopause; the symptoms

ascribed to this alone, which is then treated – often with extra

oestrogen, making the whole thing worse. Deficiency in progesterone most

especially needs to be dealt with, since it reverses oestrogen dominance,

improves many menopausal symptoms like sweats and mood swings, and reverses

osteoporosis. Happily natural progesterone cream is easily obtained: when

used it has the added benefit of helping to stabilise adrenal function.

6.

Then, there is the possibility of mercury poisoning, caused through amalgam

fillings - these might need to be removed but you need to seek a Dentist who

specialises in the removal of amalgam fillings.

7.

One of the main reasons why thyroid hormone is not being utilised at the

cellular level is because you might be suffering with low levels of iron,

transferring saturation%, ferritin, vitamin B12, vitamin D3, magnesium, folate,

copper and zinc - these have to be tested for, and treated.

When

you have been quite unwell for a long time, all these problems have to be dealt

with, and since each may affect the other, it all has to be done very

carefully.

Ask

your doctor to work with you to help you find the cause. The balancing of these

variables is as much up to you as to your doctor – which is why a check

of morning, day and evening temperatures and pulse rates, together with

symptoms, good and bad, can be so helpful. To this end, check out Dr Rind's

Metabolic Metabolic Temperature Graph http://www.drrind.com/therapies/metabolic-temperature-graph

If

your doctor tries to tell you that low levels of the above mentioned nutrients

have nothing to do with your low thyroid state, copy out the following of just

a few references to the research/studies that have been done to show that there

is a very big connection. Doctors are not taught about this at medical school,

so we have to help them where we can - so they, in turn, can help their other

patients.

Low

iron/ferritin: Iron deficiency is shown to significantly reduce T4 to T3

conversion, increase reverse T3 levels, and block the thermogenic (metabolism

boosting) properties of thyroid hormone (1-4). Thus, iron deficiency, as

indicated by an iron saturation below 25 or a ferritin below 70, will result in

diminished intracellular T3 levels. Additionally, T4 should not be considered

adequate thyroid replacement if iron deficiency is present (1-4)).

1.

Dillman E, Gale C, Green W, et al. Hypothermia in iron deficiency due to

altered triiodithyroidine metabolism. Regulatory, Integrative and Comparative

Physiology 1980;239(5):377-R381.

2.

SM, PE, Lukaski HC. In vitro hepatic thyroid hormone deiodination

in iron-deficient rats: effect of dietary fat. Life Sci 1993;53(8):603-9.

3.

Zimmermann MB, Köhrle J. The Impact of Iron and Selenium Deficiencies on Iodine

and Thyroid Metabolism: Biochemistry and Relevance to Public Health. Thyroid

2002;12(10): 867-78.

4.

Beard J, tobin B, Green W. Evidence for Thyroid Hormone Deficiency in

Iron-Deficient Anemic Rats. J. Nutr. 1989;119:772-778.

Low

vitamin B12: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18655403

Low

vitamin D3: http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/abstract/113/3/329

and http://www.goodhormonehealth.com/VitaminD.pdf

Low

magnesium: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC292768/pdf/jcinvest00264-0105.pdf

Low

folate: http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/47/9/1738

and http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/thy.1999.9.1163

Low

copper http://www.ithyroid.com/copper.htm

http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/copper_toxicity_syndrome.htm

http://www.ithyroid.com/copper.htm

http://www.rjpbcs.com/pdf/2011_2(2)/68.pdf

http://ajplegacy.physiology.org/content/171/3/652.extract

Low

zinc:http://www.istanbul.edu.tr/ffdbiyo/current4/07%20Iham%20AM%C4%B0R.pdf

and http://articles.webraydian.com/article1648-Role_of_Zinc_and_Copper_in_Effective_Thyroid_Function.html

·

NOTE: When your blood tests come back, ask your doctor for a copy and remember

to always get the reference range and post them on the forum. This is because

doctors will often tell you that there is not a problem because blood tests

have come back within the reference range. You need to know where about in the

reference range they are. We will again, help with their interpretation.

·

Vitamin B12 levels for both men and women need to be at the top of the range in

a reference interval of around 175 -900.

·

Vitamin D3 levels need to be about 50.

·

Magnesium levels need to be at the top of the range

Hi, I'm new to this site. I have been diagnosed

about 5 weeks ago with very low thyroid and tsh was about 42. After taking

Levo, I had a second blood test and thyroid back to normal but tsh was rising.

Continued with meds still feeling yuck. Had another blood test and it's coming

down. I am still feeling very tired and had a bad day yesterday. I understand

everyone is different but

How long does it take till your body levels out? And

Do u still have bad days once your body has been stable?

Does it get better from here?

No

virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4827 - Release Date: 02/23/12

[Guest guest]

I will write a more In depth e. Mail over the weekend. Is this the best way to email you? Or can I do it privately??

Hi ,

You're welcome - The best way to mail is here on the forum, as you have done. We are all here to learn from each other and this way it gives all members an equal chance to reply to a poster if they have some advice or want to share their own experiences.

warm wishes,