Re: Advice please, working with but we're stumped

[Guest guest]

Might it be adrenals - some of those are adrenal symptoms?

Your levels are still low, not even in the reference range?

> 8.8 (12 - 22)

> 7.7 (5.0 - 9.0)

> 1.9 (3.0 - 7.0)

> 1.2 (1.0 - 3.0)

Are you sure you don't need some T4 and less T3?

Chris

> Here are my current symptoms:

>

> Symptoms: excessive fatigue, very weak on standing, unable to walk very far,

dry eyes and blurred vision (not all the time), depression, headache, nausea, v

bad joint pain - knees and feet, back pain, brain fog (severe at times, has

lessened since I stopped the T4), no stamina, can't cope with stress, Anxiety

attacks at times, I think this is adrenal related though, I go all hot, feel

like I'm going to pass out and be sick.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, most of the symptoms you describe could be caused by adrenal problems.I'm not sure what you mean by good BP? or why this indicates good adrenal function?My BP has always been low to average but my adrenal function is terrible. If your BP drops on standing, then this can indicate adrenal problems.Best wishes Alison

[Guest guest]

I agree with Alison and Chris.... most of those symptoms scream adrenal fatigue to me and I can't see any evidence that the data indicates good adrenal function. The T3 will have brought up your temperature, but your pulse is pretty fast and your symptoms indicate to me that your adrenals are not coping well at all.

With best wishes,

[Guest guest]

What about the BP being so good?

>

>

> I agree with Alison and Chris.... most of those symptoms scream adrenal

> fatigue to me and I can't see any evidence that the data indicates

> good adrenal function. The T3 will have brought up your temperature, but

> your pulse is pretty fast and your symptoms indicate to me that your

> adrenals are not coping well at all.

>

> With best wishes,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> What about the BP being so good?

I don't know what your BP was like before starting T3, Hannah, but since T3 is speeding up the whole metabolism, I would expect the BP, pulse rate and temperature to rise .... but my main concern is with your symptoms. What you describe sounds to me like the adrenals are not coping well and your cortisol figures, although up over the last 3 years, had not even reached the minimum range by the time you stopped adrenal support, if I understood the given data correctly. It might be an idea to ask your doctor for another serum cortisol check if possible.

What does your BP do from sitting/lying down to standing? And are you checking your pupillary reflexes? are they stable?

Best wishes,

[Guest guest]

The cortisol results are after I stopped adrenal support ie the state they're in

now not when I was On the Isocort. I don't think I can get them checked again as

that test is only 6 weeks old.

2 of the results are in range but morning and early evening are low.

I agree all my symptoms are very adrenal but what I do about it I don't know? 1

1/2 years on Isocort didn't completely heal them and I can't tolerate HC.

I read a lot about people who don't do better even when they are on correct

adrenal support....

> > What about the BP being so good?

>

>

> I don't know what your BP was like before starting T3, Hannah, but since

> T3 is speeding up the whole metabolism, I would expect the BP, pulse

> rate and temperature to rise .... but my main concern is with your

> symptoms. What you describe sounds to me like the adrenals are not

> coping well and your cortisol figures, although up over the last 3

> years, had not even reached the minimum range by the time you stopped

> adrenal support, if I understood the given data correctly. It might be

> an idea to ask your doctor for another serum cortisol check if possible.

>

> What does your BP do from sitting/lying down to standing? And are you

> checking your pupillary reflexes? are they stable?

>

> Best wishes,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

Something you should know is that for reasons that Hannah may mention or not she

can't take hydrocortisone or adrenal support - so that's out OK. Not going to

happen.

Also her temps and BP are rock solid good and it isn't the T3 that is driving

them up. She's only on 20 mcg of T3.

I'm interested in hearing other ideas that just the normal fare of adrenals or

thyroid hormone. I'd like to hear the more obscure stuff if possible.

Best wishes,

>

>

[Guest guest]

>> Something you should know is that for reasons that Hannah may mention or not

she can't take hydrocortisone or adrenal support - so that's out OK. Not going

to happen.

Ok so Hannah cannot tolerate HC - how do you know this doesn't have some bearing

on things? It seems dismissive just to rule 'adrenals' out of the equation,

despite a low saliva cortisol test, and symptoms that could be adrenal. Do you

know why Hannah cannot take HC? Has this been explored? Some people seem to do

better on Medrol; has this been explored? How can anyone help if we don't know

how HC affected Hannah? Perhaps Hannah doesn't need it and a 24hr urinary

cortisol test has confirmed this?

Could it be that Hannah's body makes as little cortisol as possible to minimise

this bad effect, even from her own cortisol? Perhaps something else is not

right, like DHEA? Has a 24hour urinary free cortisol test been done? How can

things be ruled out without thorough testing?

I don't think we have enough information.

Chris

>

> Hi All,

>

> Something you should know is that for reasons that Hannah may mention or not

she can't take hydrocortisone or adrenal support - so that's out OK. Not going

to happen.

>

[Guest guest]

Well, If you're aiming for the obscure, I'll throw Phaeochromocytoma into the

ring. It is an amazing word, and probably not as frightening as it sounds.

Hannah's blood pressure doesn't fit with it, but some of the other symptoms do.

It is, however, exceptionally rare!

Good luck with the detective work!

[Guest guest]

With adrenal fatigue (low adrenal reserve) temperatures are low,

once you start treatment, you take your temperature daily and watch it start to

rise. Read Dr Rind's information about this and work with his Temperature Chart

http://www.drrind.com/therapies/metabolic-temperature-graph

Luv - Sheila

Hi,

most of the symptoms you describe could be caused by adrenal problems.

I'm

not sure what you mean by good BP? or why this indicates good adrenal function?

My

BP has always been low to average but my adrenal function is terrible. If your

BP drops on standing, then this can indicate adrenal problems.

Best

wishes Alison

No

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[Guest guest]

Hi Hannah, just to say, please, please be careful - if it is adrenals, you must take care because the consequences can be very damaging. I don't want to be alarmist but if I'd known what I do now and if I'd had the right advice, I wouldn't now be bedbound for large parts of the day.Please do get advice from someone who specialises in adrenals.The adrenal forum has some excellent expertise if you post your results there, I'm sure they will advise appropriately on alternative medications/supplements. NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALSOr arrange to see Dr P.As said, there are other options apart from Isocort or HC.Also the adrenal group recommends rest, rest and more rest - allowing the adrenals to fully recover.Good luck. Alison

[Guest guest]

Do you have any yeast or blood sugar problems?

I know your working with paul but have you tried to move your first dose earlier

and also bigger in size ? 3:30am was too early for me while 4:30 was too late.

4am turned out to be best.

Also are you only awaking out of bed at 11:30am? Have you tried moving this

forward a little ? and/or trying a later dose than 6:30pm.

Steve

>

> Hi all,

>

> Wondered if anyone had any thoughts, advice or input into the following

situation.

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Hannah

Your symptoms are screaming low adrenals - both your adrenal and

thyroid results are showing this. Even though you may think your adrenals are

working more efficiently than previously, your results are still far too low.

If this was me, I would stop the T3 completely for at least 7

days (no more) and start a course of Nutri Adrenal Extra (NAE).

Start with 1 tablet with breakfast and raise this by another

tablet in around 10 days but take this with your lunch. Add back the T3 with a

small dose and gradually build this up again whilst building up the NAE. You

can add another NAE in 10 days and take this with breakfast. You can take up to

6 NAE daily, but as you already know, if this doesn't work for you then you

need to take a more potent adrenal product. I just had a word with Dr Peatfield

to see whether he believes this is the correct course of action and he agrees

that this is the way to go. Your adrenals need to function properly so

the thyroid hormone can work properly, which your thyroid results show it is

not at the moment.

Luv - Sheila

Wondered if anyone had any thoughts, advice or input into the following

situation.

I'm working with with T3 only and trying to understand what is

going on with my data not matching my symptoms.

I came off 18 Isocort over Christmas and had my adrenals tested about a month

ago:

8.8 (12 - 22)

7.7 (5.0 - 9.0)

1.9 (3.0 - 7.0)

1.2 (1.0 - 3.0)

My total daily cortisol in 2009 was: 8.5 (21 - 41)

2010 was: 11 (21 - 41)

Now: 19.6 (21 - 41)

I'm not on any adrenal support at the moment other than vits and minerals.

[Guest guest]

Hannah's issues are extraordinarily complex - more than anything I've ever seen

so far I suspect. Adrenals are in play and Hannah may need to use a little

adrenal support.

She has an appointment with a great endo but the waiting list is long. We aren't

attempting to do anything risky or silly - just trying to make some improvements

whilst Hannah waits to have much for extensive tests than Dr. P even has access

to.

Thanks for your concern everyone - I actually asked Hannah to do the original

post to see if we could get some ideas. To be honest I'm pretty stumped as to

what is going on and it is much more than just adrenals or thyroid hormone I

suspect.

I doubt we'll be posting back unless one of us has a lightbulb go off.

Thanks everyone,

>

> Hi Hannah, just to say, please, please be careful - if it is adrenals,

[Guest guest]

Hi Hannah,

I took your figures from 18th Feb 2012 and logged them on a bar graph :-

as under

http://f1.grp.fs.com/v1/wOBLT1hh6u8K5LFRf33rOLcpdhbBHe8okSwzHl8frYfyXrHSuEh-0fGN6NBFSyjnmIzTn8Jn6VBxgfxaEoX3yA/%27s%20Department/Data%20X%20T3.xls

If I'm not mistaken, you may need to either take 9-12mcg T3 at 12:30 or take a 6mcg amount at 17:30 not 18:30 to correct the temperature drop evident at the 16:30 time point and the spike at 19:00.

That ought to enable a reassessment of what is wrong at the moment.

's input woud be most valuable here.

best wishes

Bob

>> Hi all,> > Wondered if anyone had any thoughts, advice or input into the following situation.> > I'm working with with T3 only and trying to understand what is going on with my data not matching my symptoms.

[Guest guest]

What happens when you take HC, how much were you taking and how were you dosing?

Have you tested thyroid anti-bodies?

What were your Celiac test results?

do you have a recent CMP?

what other meds and supplements are you taking?

Diane

Advice is not meant to replace your doctor. No one here is a medical

professional, just other patients sharing our experiences.

https://eaware.org/

http://www.adrenalsweb.org/

NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

NTHA-Chat/

RT3_T3/

http://www.thyroid-rt3.com/

thyroid treatment/

>

> Hi all,

>

> Wondered if anyone had any thoughts, advice or input into the following

situation.

>

> I'm working with with T3 only and trying to understand what is

going on with my data not matching my symptoms.

>

moderated: old messages snipped

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila, I'm willing to try the NAX and get up to a good dosage and see if

this helps. Having spent 1 1/2 years on Isocort and it helping only marginally

I'm not really wanting to go down that road again.

Is there any danger with NAX that it may raise my already high pulse - does it

have adrenaline in it?

If you didn't know anything else about me other than the most recent saliva

results

8.8 (12 - 22)

7.7 (5.0 - 9.0)

1.9 (3.0 - 7.0)

1.2 (1.0 - 3.0)

is NAX what you would suggest for my adrenals in their current state?

Thanks Sheila

Hannah

>

>

> If this was me, I would stop the T3 completely for at least 7 days (no more)

> and start a course of Nutri Adrenal Extra (NAE).

>

>

> My total daily cortisol in 2009 was: 8.5 (21 - 41)

> 2010 was: 11 (21 - 41)

> Now: 19.6 (21 - 41)

>

> I'm not on any adrenal support at the moment other than vits and minerals.

>

[Guest guest]

Hannah

could you advise why you can't take HC or other adrenal support? What happens?

If it's personal then i can understand why you'd not want to tell us

perhaps someone has similar experiences and can help?

Chris

>

> Hi Sheila, I'm willing to try the NAX and get up to a good dosage and see if

this helps. Having spent 1 1/2 years on Isocort and it helping only marginally

I'm not really wanting to go down that road again.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi - no it's not particularly personal but most people don't believe me or

say that I'm just not on the right dosage etc.

I've been on psychiatric drugs since I was a teenager that in my opinion have

caused a great amount of depression (coming off them is a slow process).

When I take HC, due to it being synthetic or the fact that these are side

effects of it I get extremely depressed and suicidal to the point where it's

torturous.

Other people find that it can aggravate depression but not normally this severe.

I can't take antibiotics either as they send me loopy

Isocort never had the same effect on my mood but on the other hand didn't do

much either and I was up to 18 a day.

Hannah

> >

[Guest guest]

Ok thanks for sharing this

When I first started HC, i felt very depressed too - i felt suicidal, too. I

don't know why.

One theory is this:

http://www.newtreatments.org/fromweb/licoriceconversation.txt

Capt Wms: I added 3 mg of hydrocortisone to my licorice and

became depressed within 3 days. What's going on here?

Dr. Baschetti:

It is not surprising that you began to feel depressed after taking

hydrocortisone. As I wrote in my fax of 28 April, you might need hydrocortisone

" within a few months " , not now. Your hypocortisolemia lasted 20 years. As a

consequence, your glucocorticoid receptors (GR) have an enhanced sensitivity.

This explains why for some months even small doses of hydrocortisone added to

licorice, which greatly potentiates its action, may result in effects similar to

those produced by hypercortisolemia, a typical abnormality of depressed

subjects. Hydrocortisone, therefore, should only be taken some months later,

when the sensitivity of your GR will be gradually normalized. Of course, the

hypersensitivity of GR may well explain why licorice, initially, is extremely

effective even at very small doses. The gradual normalization of the GR's

sensitivity leads to the requirement of parallel increased dosage of licorice.

I must stress, however, that your future use of hydrocortisone, although

probable, is not mandatory. In other words, if licorice dissolved in milk will

continue to be sufficient to keep good

conditions, the drug will not be necessary.

==

Another, like you say is that HC is synthetic, and I am not sure it is 100%

bioidentical.

Did you ever have a synacthen test? I only ask because when I had one, i felt

in a very good mood after - my cortisol levels would have been quite high.

Interesting that my own cortisol makes me feel better, but too much HC doesn't?

===

my experiences were that HC made me depressed, very depressed - i couldn't do

anything. I then stopped it, and felt better, then got worse about a month

later. i started it again, in a low dose and it seemed to then help a lot, then

i crashed again.

===

I do wonder if psychiatric drugs affect our cortisol receptors. In fact these

studies indicate they do:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3121947/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1573058/

Medrol makes me feel horrible. When i had a dexamethasone suppression test,

that didn't affect me mentally that i remember (didn't help, either) though it

was the equivalent to 20mg HC.

==

I have been on various antidepressants - prozac, dothiepin,gamanil,

amitryptiline, dothiepin, duloxetine, citalopram, escitolopram, mirtazapine

(those are what i remember!) - and i do wonder if they have done something to my

brain.

I'm sorry I'm not being much help here am I. I did find that adding DHEA

helped a lot, and pregnenolone too - it's supposed to be a neurosteroid? I

don't know if that'd be safe to take with antidepressants though.

DHEA is supposed to offset the catabolic effects of cortisol and i took HC for a

long time with out DHEA and DHEA sure helped when I took it. I couldn't sleep

in my bedroom for over 2 years until I started DHEA and pregnenolone - I felt

too scared and cold. Within 2 days of starting pregnenolone and DHEA i was able

to sleep in there no problem. I only mention this as the year before I this

'not being able to sleep in the bedroom' symptom started, i was ok, but when i

had too much stress, or was ill (too much of my own cortisol??) i could not

sleep in my bedroom. Stress went, and i was fine again, until i went on hC...

==

It looks like pregnenolone has effects in the hippocampus, and it looks like

antidepressants affect the hippocampus, too. Taking pregnenolone and DHEA

helped me. could they have been doing something with the hippocampus, and

acting as neurosteroids?

Perhaps that's why they helped - is this something worth exploring?

Pregnenolone can convert into other hormones, including cortisol. maybe your

brain is low on the neurosteroid pregnenolone, or your body cannot make enough

cortisol because it is low in pregnenolone? I gather pregnenolone is made in

the mitochondria from cortisol, and stimulated by thyroid and Vitamin A - what

if we don't make enough of it?

http://www.tidesoflife.com/pregprodhea.htm

" Pregnenolone is a steroid precursor (starter material). It is made in the body

from the bad-rap guy, cholesterol. Naturally, to get pregnenolone, we need

adequate amounts of cholesterol plus other nutrients, including vitamin A,

thyroid hormone and enzymes. If any of these are inadequate, you will have a

less than desired supply of pregnenolone.

In a healthy person, the conversion of cholesterol to pregnenolone occurs inside

the mitochondria, nicknamed the lungs of the cell because of their role in cell

respiration. Once produced, pregnenolone leaves the mitochondria, so it cannot

inhibit its own synthesis. In fact, both progesterone and pregnenolone stimulate

their own synthesis so that if you take them, the body's ability to synthesize

them is not suppressed. Sometimes short-term therapy restores the body's ability

to produce adequate amounts, although Peat says that this is not as clearly

established with pregnenolone as in the case of progesterone. On the other hand,

synthetic progesterone has an inhibiting effect on in-vivo synthesis plus many

other toxic side effects not observed with natural progesterone. "

I was able to get pregnenolone, progesterone, and DHEA-S tested. and they were

all low, pregnenlone below range as i recall....

chris

[Guest guest]

Hi Hannah,

Quite a few psychiatric drugs contain Fluorine bound as an 'almost immovable'

element. The fact that this element can be 'moved', very slightly, adds to its

toxicity in that it can jam up the works inside your cells, causing irreversible

damage (eg Prozac, for one)...

I understand that getting off them is a long job.

Has anyone ever checked your mitochondrial function?

Mitochondria create the energy inside your cells and they are very susceptible

damage from toxins such as Fluorine in drugs.

The reason that these drugs contain Fluorine is to prolong their stay in the

body to enable longer-acting drug effects.

best wishes

Bob

>

> Hi - no it's not particularly personal but most people don't believe me

or say that I'm just not on the right dosage etc.

>

> I've been on psychiatric drugs since I was a teenager that in my opinion have

caused a great amount of depression (coming off them is a slow process).

[Guest guest]

> Has anyone ever checked your mitochondrial function?

>

> Mitochondria create the energy inside your cells and they are very susceptible

damage from toxins such as Fluorine in drugs.

Interesting - that kind of ties in with my suggestion about pregnenolone.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Can I bump this back up for Sheila to see please

> >

> >

> > If this was me, I would stop the T3 completely for at least 7 days (no more)

> > and start a course of Nutri Adrenal Extra (NAE).

> >

>

> >

> > My total daily cortisol in 2009 was: 8.5 (21 - 41)

> > 2010 was: 11 (21 - 41)

> > Now: 19.6 (21 - 41)

> >

> > I'm not on any adrenal support at the moment other than vits and minerals.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP2D6

read this and boggle at what is not said !

citing:-

http://medicine.iupui.edu/clinpharm/ddis/p450_Table_Oct_11_2009.pdf

best wishes

Bob

>> Ok thanks for sharing this> > When I first started HC, i felt very depressed too - i felt suicidal, too. I don't know why.> > One theory is this:> > http://www.newtreatments.org/fromweb/licoriceconversation.txt

[Guest guest]

I'm not Sheila - excuse me for butting in -but I have found the nax to feel like

they have adrenaline in. You may feel different, some people swear by them and

do very well on them

Best regards

Chris