T3/T4

[Guest guest]

Mark & Pete:

Thanks so much for your suggestions and insight. What you both wrote makes

sense, based on my limited but growning understanding of the brain.

I just went to set up a profile in Apro and want to make sure I'm doing it

right -- It's still quite confusing to me.

You wrote " Although we ordinarily start in the SMR range (12-15 Hz) Lobeta on

BM, I would probably start about 9-12 with your daughter.... "

Please confirm that of the 3 protocol choices that appear in Apro (Beta, SMR,

Alpha-Theta), I need to select Alpha-Theta and then select " Advanced " and set

Theta on Supress (would that be 4-8 or 4-9?), and Alpha on Reinforce 9-12.

The other waves are all Ignore.

Also, Since I've never done a bipolar placement, is the blue wire going on

T3, Yellow T4, and then where does Black (ground) go? On the right ear?

Thanks ever so much. And please let me know when you plan to do a training

in NYC!

D

> As Mark mentioned, the place we most often have success in training for Tone

> is at T3/T4 (a bipolar placement in one channel). The main goal is to

> focus

> on training up the correct reward frequency, which differs from person to

> person. I increasingly believe this has to do with the age at which the

> system was impacted rather than the current age of the client. Although we

> ordinarily start in the SMR range (12-15 Hz Lobeta on the BrainMaster), I

> would probably start about 9-12 with your daughter. I'd do 3-5 minute

> segments on APro and watch her carefully during the training. You should

> see a real settling in and quieting effect when you get to the right place.

> If you do a couple segments and don't see this, then ESC and go to

> properties to re-set your reward band down 1 Hz e.g. 8-11.

>

>

[Guest guest]

, I'll jump in here, only because I think I know the answers to your

questions, and the more I teach, the more I master....

For the T3T4 training in Apro: I would chose single channel, SMR, then click the

advanced button to get to where you set the bands. (If you are not seeing the

advanced button, you are still in wizard. Get out of wizard and click the

properties icon on the top tool bar, choose Filter.)

Once you have the Adjust Filters window open, you can set the Theta to 2.5-6.5

(suppress), Lobeta to 9-12hz (reinforce), and high beta to 23-38hz.(suppress).

Reducing the High Beta will help reduce anxiety and tension.

For the wires, you've got it right: Lead (blue) T3, Reference (yellow) T4, and

ground anywhere: ear is fine.

Also, she doesn't necessarily have to watch the screen. This particular

protocol is nice to do leaning back on the couch with your feet up, just letting

the beeps come. That might be too 'boring' for her...but I like it. I usually

do this in 1.9A so I can choose a better sound than Apro has.

Good luck.

Re: T3/T4

Mark & Pete:

Thanks so much for your suggestions and insight. What you both wrote makes

sense, based on my limited but growning understanding of the brain.

I just went to set up a profile in Apro and want to make sure I'm doing it

right -- It's still quite confusing to me.

You wrote " Although we ordinarily start in the SMR range (12-15 Hz) Lobeta on

BM, I would probably start about 9-12 with your daughter.... "

Please confirm that of the 3 protocol choices that appear in Apro (Beta, SMR,

Alpha-Theta), I need to select Alpha-Theta and then select " Advanced " and set

Theta on Supress (would that be 4-8 or 4-9?), and Alpha on Reinforce 9-12.

The other waves are all Ignore.

Also, Since I've never done a bipolar placement, is the blue wire going on

T3, Yellow T4, and then where does Black (ground) go? On the right ear?

Thanks ever so much. And please let me know when you plan to do a training

in NYC!

D

> As Mark mentioned, the place we most often have success in training for Tone

> is at T3/T4 (a bipolar placement in one channel). The main goal is to

> focus

> on training up the correct reward frequency, which differs from person to

> person. I increasingly believe this has to do with the age at which the

> system was impacted rather than the current age of the client. Although we

> ordinarily start in the SMR range (12-15 Hz Lobeta on the BrainMaster), I

> would probably start about 9-12 with your daughter. I'd do 3-5 minute

> segments on APro and watch her carefully during the training. You should

> see a real settling in and quieting effect when you get to the right place.

> If you do a couple segments and don't see this, then ESC and go to

> properties to re-set your reward band down 1 Hz e.g. 8-11.

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

's post was an excellent instruction on the setup.

I need to add two things, one because of an error I may have made, the

second because it's a major irritant to me:

1. When I re-read your first post, I realized that your daughter was 5 (I

think) when she joined you, but that you have worked with her for a number

of years. I'm thinking she may be 10 to 13 years old now. If that is the

case, then set your SMR band up higher, perhaps 11-14 to start. You can

ease it down (I'd go down as far as 8-11 Hz) and look for results (positive

or negative) during and after a session. Only start as low as I suggested

if she is very young.

2. BrainMaster has done a major disservice to the NF community by sending

out electrodes with wires the same color as the plugs. Which colored wire

goes into which colored plug makes no difference. In fact, when the gold

starts to flake off the BrainMaster electrodes, I suggest you replace them

with electrodes from Grass (find them in the Files section on the

BrainTrainer site), which may come in any number of colors. What is

important is where the wire is on the head and where it goes into the box.

T3 or T4 (makes no difference which) goes into the Channel 1 Active plug,

and the other goes into the Channel 1 Reference plug. As said, you can

put the ground wire anywhere. If earclips are uncomfortable for your

daughter, put the ground at Cz and avoid the ears altogether.

Pete

p.s.

One other question. I assume the Q would have picked this up, but what does

her alpha activity (8-12 Hz) look like? If you use the F3 key to open the

spectrum display, watch the light blue band. Is it larger than the others,

smaller, surging or what?

Re: T3/T4

Mark & Pete:

Thanks so much for your suggestions and insight. What you both wrote

makes

sense, based on my limited but growning understanding of the brain.

I just went to set up a profile in Apro and want to make sure I'm doing it

right -- It's still quite confusing to me.

You wrote " Although we ordinarily start in the SMR range (12-15 Hz) Lobeta

on

BM, I would probably start about 9-12 with your daughter.... "

Please confirm that of the 3 protocol choices that appear in Apro (Beta,

SMR,

Alpha-Theta), I need to select Alpha-Theta and then select " Advanced " and

set

Theta on Supress (would that be 4-8 or 4-9?), and Alpha on Reinforce 9-12.

The other waves are all Ignore.

Also, Since I've never done a bipolar placement, is the blue wire going on

T3, Yellow T4, and then where does Black (ground) go? On the right ear?

Thanks ever so much. And please let me know when you plan to do a

training

in NYC!

D

> As Mark mentioned, the place we most often have success in training for

Tone

> is at T3/T4 (a bipolar placement in one channel). The main goal is to

> focus

> on training up the correct reward frequency, which differs from person

to

> person. I increasingly believe this has to do with the age at which the

> system was impacted rather than the current age of the client. Although

we

> ordinarily start in the SMR range (12-15 Hz Lobeta on the BrainMaster),

I

> would probably start about 9-12 with your daughter. I'd do 3-5 minute

> segments on APro and watch her carefully during the training. You

should

> see a real settling in and quieting effect when you get to the right

place.

> If you do a couple segments and don't see this, then ESC and go to

> properties to re-set your reward band down 1 Hz e.g. 8-11.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Pete:

Let me clarify - Ariela is now 8.5 years old. She was only 8 mos at

adoption, but I wasn't clued into attachment/RAD until she was 2.5,

although we were doing other early intervention therapies for

developmental delays starting when she was 15 mos old.

You asked about her alpha band -- I wouldn't know where to look for

it on the Q, but just what I see during sessions -- it's not as high

as the theta, but it's pretty high, and I think it does surge, if you

define that by shooting up periodically. I just checked the review

screens - Theta ranges from 9.5-11, Alpha around 6.

I have another question -- about length of sessions, and number of

times per week. Using Apro we do 3 min segments. We had been doing

a total of 30 mins -- 15 mins for Fz and 15 mins for C4. She was ok

with that. I let her take breaks when needed. SOmetimes we'd do

less if I noticed she was getting tired. This morning set up the

T3/T4 protocol and will try it later this afternoon. How many 3 min

segments should I try? Should we continue with C4 as well?

I don't want to overdo it, but since we have the machine, and are

available to do it, I'd like to make the most of it. Yesterday was

an amazing day in terms of seeing wonderful progress that can only be

attributed to NF, so even if Fz wasn't the greatest, something good

has already happened.

Thanks again to everyone,

> ,

>

> 's post was an excellent instruction on the setup.

>

> I need to add two things, one because of an error I may have made,

the

> second because it's a major irritant to me:

>

> 1. When I re-read your first post, I realized that your daughter

was 5 (I

> think) when she joined you, but that you have worked with her for a

number

> of years. I'm thinking she may be 10 to 13 years old now. If that

is the

> case, then set your SMR band up higher, perhaps 11-14 to start.

You can

> ease it down (I'd go down as far as 8-11 Hz) and look for results

(positive

> or negative) during and after a session. Only start as low as I

suggested

> if she is very young.

>

> 2. BrainMaster has done a major disservice to the NF community

by sending

> out electrodes with wires the same color as the plugs. Which

colored wire

> goes into which colored plug makes no difference. In fact, when

the gold

> starts to flake off the BrainMaster electrodes, I suggest you

replace them

> with electrodes from Grass (find them in the Files section on the

> BrainTrainer site), which may come in any number of colors. What is

> important is where the wire is on the head and where it goes into

the box.

> T3 or T4 (makes no difference which) goes into the Channel 1 Active

plug,

> and the other goes into the Channel 1 Reference plug. As

said, you can

> put the ground wire anywhere. If earclips are uncomfortable for

your

> daughter, put the ground at Cz and avoid the ears altogether.

>

> Pete

>

> p.s.

> One other question. I assume the Q would have picked this up, but

what does

> her alpha activity (8-12 Hz) look like? If you use the F3 key to

open the

> spectrum display, watch the light blue band. Is it larger than the

others,

> smaller, surging or what?

> Re: T3/T4

>

>

> Mark & Pete:

> Thanks so much for your suggestions and insight. What you both

wrote

> makes

> sense, based on my limited but growning understanding of the

brain.

>

> I just went to set up a profile in Apro and want to make sure I'm

doing it

> right -- It's still quite confusing to me.

>

> You wrote " Although we ordinarily start in the SMR range (12-15

Hz) Lobeta

> on

> BM, I would probably start about 9-12 with your daughter.... "

>

> Please confirm that of the 3 protocol choices that appear in Apro

(Beta,

> SMR,

> Alpha-Theta), I need to select Alpha-Theta and then

select " Advanced " and

> set

> Theta on Supress (would that be 4-8 or 4-9?), and Alpha on

Reinforce 9-12.

> The other waves are all Ignore.

>

> Also, Since I've never done a bipolar placement, is the blue wire

going on

> T3, Yellow T4, and then where does Black (ground) go? On the

right ear?

>

> Thanks ever so much. And please let me know when you plan to do a

> training

> in NYC!

>

> D

>

>

> > As Mark mentioned, the place we most often have success in

training for

> Tone

> > is at T3/T4 (a bipolar placement in one channel). The main

goal is to

> > focus

> > on training up the correct reward frequency, which differs from

person

> to

> > person. I increasingly believe this has to do with the age at

which the

> > system was impacted rather than the current age of the client.

Although

> we

> > ordinarily start in the SMR range (12-15 Hz Lobeta on the

BrainMaster),

> I

> > would probably start about 9-12 with your daughter. I'd do 3-5

minute

> > segments on APro and watch her carefully during the training.

You

> should

> > see a real settling in and quieting effect when you get to the

right

> place.

> > If you do a couple segments and don't see this, then ESC and go

to

> > properties to re-set your reward band down 1 Hz e.g. 8-11.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I think 15-30 minutes is plenty for a session, however it works best for

Ariela to set it up. You may find that she can handle 5 minute segments of

T3/T4, as she sinks into the state.

I just did a first session today with a woman in her 50's who has extreme

anxiety, depression, horrible history of abuse. In 15 minutes she had

completely relaxed physically, become aware of a long-standing " stone " where

her solar plexus would be, and actually felt it release about 50%. I don't

expect that this effect will last a long time, but the impact of T3/T4

training on folks who need it is pretty astonishing, and over a series of

sessions they can literally transform.

Re alpha: I just wanted to see if that needed to be blocked, but it sounds

okay for now.

Definitely start closer to 11-14 Hz and ease down as needed.

I didn't mean to suggest that Jay was wrong with his beta prescription.

Jay, however, has never done a neurofeedback session to the best of my

knowledge--as trainer or trainee--so he doesn't necessarily connect with

what all of us do-ers have seen over and over again: beta can really have a

negative effect, even though it's " too low " on the numbers sheet. I'm sure

that the C4 SMR training has had a strong positive effect. Hopefully the

T3/T4 will have an even better one.

Pete

Re: T3/T4

Pete:

Let me clarify - Ariela is now 8.5 years old. She was only 8 mos at

adoption, but I wasn't clued into attachment/RAD until she was 2.5,

although we were doing other early intervention therapies for

developmental delays starting when she was 15 mos old.

You asked about her alpha band -- I wouldn't know where to look for

it on the Q, but just what I see during sessions -- it's not as high

as the theta, but it's pretty high, and I think it does surge, if you

define that by shooting up periodically. I just checked the review

screens - Theta ranges from 9.5-11, Alpha around 6.

I have another question -- about length of sessions, and number of

times per week. Using Apro we do 3 min segments. We had been doing

a total of 30 mins -- 15 mins for Fz and 15 mins for C4. She was ok

with that. I let her take breaks when needed. SOmetimes we'd do

less if I noticed she was getting tired. This morning set up the

T3/T4 protocol and will try it later this afternoon. How many 3 min

segments should I try? Should we continue with C4 as well?

I don't want to overdo it, but since we have the machine, and are

available to do it, I'd like to make the most of it. Yesterday was

an amazing day in terms of seeing wonderful progress that can only be

attributed to NF, so even if Fz wasn't the greatest, something good

has already happened.

Thanks again to everyone,

---

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.401 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/9/02

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I'm Colleen a close friend of s. I wondered if you had a

another e-mail where you might be reached. I would love to give you some

background but it doesn't need to take up room on this list server it's non

related information. I always hate to take up everyones time on incidental

matters. Mine is blueyz519@...

Thanks

Hope to hear from you

Colleen

Re: T3/T4

>

>

> Mark & Pete:

> Thanks so much for your suggestions and insight. What you both

wrote

> makes

> sense, based on my limited but growning understanding of the

brain.

>

> I just went to set up a profile in Apro and want to make sure I'm

doing it

> right -- It's still quite confusing to me.

>

> You wrote " Although we ordinarily start in the SMR range (12-15

Hz) Lobeta

> on

> BM, I would probably start about 9-12 with your daughter.... "

>

> Please confirm that of the 3 protocol choices that appear in Apro

(Beta,

> SMR,

> Alpha-Theta), I need to select Alpha-Theta and then

select " Advanced " and

> set

> Theta on Supress (would that be 4-8 or 4-9?), and Alpha on

Reinforce 9-12.

> The other waves are all Ignore.

>

> Also, Since I've never done a bipolar placement, is the blue wire

going on

> T3, Yellow T4, and then where does Black (ground) go? On the

right ear?

>

> Thanks ever so much. And please let me know when you plan to do a

> training

> in NYC!

>

> D

>

>

> > As Mark mentioned, the place we most often have success in

training for

> Tone

> > is at T3/T4 (a bipolar placement in one channel). The main

goal is to

> > focus

> > on training up the correct reward frequency, which differs from

person

> to

> > person. I increasingly believe this has to do with the age at

which the

> > system was impacted rather than the current age of the client.

Although

> we

> > ordinarily start in the SMR range (12-15 Hz Lobeta on the

BrainMaster),

> I

> > would probably start about 9-12 with your daughter. I'd do 3-5

minute

> > segments on APro and watch her carefully during the training.

You

> should

> > see a real settling in and quieting effect when you get to the

right

> place.

> > If you do a couple segments and don't see this, then ESC and go

to

> > properties to re-set your reward band down 1 Hz e.g. 8-11.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jo,

I don't understand how it works, but you really can reward and inhibit an

overlapping frequency or even the same frequency. I have seen it work very

well.

The Othmers explain it in terms of an exercise model rather than trying to

normalize particular frequencies. I think what we are doing is rewarding a

consistent increase in the amplitude of a steady, rhythmic signal, while at

the same time inhibiting any dramatic departure from the mean amplitude for

that frequency (i.e., sudden surges in amplitude).

I'm wondering if, in some ways, this might be similar to Val Brown's

approach?

Mark Darling

Sunshine Coast, Australia

T3/T4

> Pete and others,

>

> I find T3/T4 with reward protocol is working very well with

> migrainers.

> But when I lower the reward frequency to as low as 2.5-6.5, it almost

> same with the inhibit frequency of 2-5Hz.

> What should I do with the inhibit?

> Should I lower the inhibit frequency too or just inhibit hibeta and

> make it one reward and one inhibit protocol?

> How are you doing it?

>

> Jo Sato

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mark,

Remember that, since this training is usually done in bipolar montages (e.g. T3/T4), you are training up the difference between two sites. Increasing, say, 2.5-6.5 Hz doesn't mean that amplitudes at that frequency necessarily go up at all. They could easily both go down, just one side more than the other. Or they could both increase activity in the target range, but one more than the other. Or they could move in opposite directions with either side going up or down. There is literally no way to tell (in a bipolar montage) which is happening. All you can say is that the two sites are differentiating themselves from one another, but not too much.

When you train with an inhibit and a reward in the same channel, that's not different from software that allows you to set a double threshold (one not to exceed, the other not to drop below).

BTW, it is possible in softwares that have a sum and difference capability to do this training in 2 channels. I've set up a protocol in BioExplorer that trained T3/A1 in channel one and T4/A2 in channel two, using the expression evaluator to subtract one channel from the other. This gave the same kind of training effect, but it allowed me to go back after the session and look at the channels independently to see what had happened in each one. I would change the montage the next time I did this and use T3/A2 and T4/A1 in the two channels so give more of the "through the head" effect.

You can do the same thing in Brainmaster 1.9 or 2.0, using the sum channels mode and putting your thresholds only in the second channel (which ends up being the difference) so you get your feedback on that channel alone. That too would allow you to go to the graphs after (or during) the session and see the changes in each site while training the differential.

Pete

Van DeusenBrainTrainer ()16246 SW 92nd Ave, Miami, FL 33157305/321-1595

Re: T3/T4

Jo,I don't understand how it works, but you really can reward and inhibit anoverlapping frequency or even the same frequency. I have seen it work verywell.The Othmers explain it in terms of an exercise model rather than trying tonormalize particular frequencies. I think what we are doing is rewarding aconsistent increase in the amplitude of a steady, rhythmic signal, while atthe same time inhibiting any dramatic departure from the mean amplitude forthat frequency (i.e., sudden surges in amplitude).I'm wondering if, in some ways, this might be similar to Val Brown'sapproach?Mark DarlingSunshine Coast, Australia

[Guest guest]

Mark,

Thank you for the reply.

I remember reading Dr. Othmer’s postings as well.

But when I defined the theta as 2-5Hz and alpha as

2.5-6.5Hz and looked at the Breview screen of BrainMaster, the theta and the

alpha moved together.

Hibeta went down nicely but theta and alpha went up when

I tried to reward alpha inhibit theta and hibeta.

But the client’s migraine was gone after half an

hour’s training.

Jo

-----Original

Message-----

From: Mark Darling

[mailto:mdarling@...]

Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004

6:20 AM

Subject: Re: T3/T4

Jo,

I don't understand how it works, but you really

can reward and inhibit an

overlapping frequency or even the same frequency.

I have seen it work very

well.

The Othmers explain it in terms of an exercise

model rather than trying to

normalize particular frequencies. I think what we

are doing is rewarding a

consistent increase in the amplitude of a steady,

rhythmic signal, while at

the same time inhibiting any dramatic departure

from the mean amplitude for

that frequency (i.e., sudden surges in amplitude).

I'm wondering if, in some ways, this might be

similar to Val Brown's

approach?

Mark Darling

Sunshine Coast, Australia

T3/T4

> Pete and others,

>

> I find T3/T4 with reward protocol is working

very well with

> migrainers.

> But when I lower the reward frequency to as

low as 2.5-6.5, it almost

> same with the inhibit frequency of 2-5Hz.

> What should I do with the inhibit?

> Should I lower the inhibit frequency too or

just inhibit hibeta and

> make it one reward and one inhibit protocol?

> How are you doing it?

>

> Jo Sato

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

As I see it, the inhibit sets an upper limit and the reward a lower limit. This is then quite similar to Val's boxes. IT would appear to function to reduce variability in the band being monitored....

Larry

* * * * * * * *ce M. Hirshberg, Ph.D. The NeuroDevelopment Center 260 West Exchange Street, Suite 302Providence, RI 02903Voice 401 351-7779 Fax: 401 351-8188www.neurodevelopmentcenter.com

Division of Child and Adolescent PsychiatryDepartment of Psychiatry and Human BehaviorBrown University Medical School Any information, including protected health information (PHI), transmitted in this email is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and or exempt from disclosure under applicable Federal or State law. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any action in reliance upon, protected health information (PHI) by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.

T3/T4> Pete and others,>> I find T3/T4 with reward protocol is working very well with> migrainers.> But when I lower the reward frequency to as low as 2.5-6.5, it almost> same with the inhibit frequency of 2-5Hz.> What should I do with the inhibit?> Should I lower the inhibit frequency too or just inhibit hibeta and> make it one reward and one inhibit protocol?> How are you doing it?>> Jo Sato>>>>>

[Guest guest]

Larry,

Is that so?

Val’s language is too difficult for a foreigner

like me.

And I don’t really understand what NCP is or

does.

Do you mind explaining it a little?

If you only use C3/C4.

Do you do the same training to every client?

Or do you change anything according to the clients

need with NCP?

Jo Sato

-----Original

Message-----

From: ce Hirshberg

[mailto:lhirshberg@...]

Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004

1:39 PM

Subject: Re: T3/T4

As

I see it, the inhibit sets an upper limit and the reward a lower limit. This is

then quite similar to Val's boxes. IT would appear to function to reduce

variability in the band being monitored....

Larry

*

* * *

* * * *

ce M. Hirshberg, Ph.D.

The NeuroDevelopment Center

260 West Exchange Street, Suite 302

Providence, RI 02903

Voice 401 351-7779 Fax: 401 351-8188

www.neurodevelopmentcenter.com

Division

of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry

Department of Psychiatry and Human Behavior

Brown University Medical School

Any information, including protected health information (PHI), transmitted

in this email is intended only for the person or entity to which it is

addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and

or exempt from disclosure under applicable Federal or State law. Any review,

retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any action in

reliance upon, protected health information (PHI) by persons or entities

other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this email

in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any

computer.

-----

Original Message -----

From: Mark

Darling

Sent: Friday, February 20,

2004 4:20 PM

Subject: Re: T3/T4

Jo,

I don't understand how it works, but you really

can reward and inhibit an

overlapping frequency or even the same frequency.

I have seen it work very

well.

The Othmers explain it in terms of an exercise

model rather than trying to

normalize particular frequencies. I think what we

are doing is rewarding a

consistent increase in the amplitude of a steady,

rhythmic signal, while at

the same time inhibiting any dramatic departure

from the mean amplitude for

that frequency (i.e., sudden surges in amplitude).

I'm wondering if, in some ways, this might be

similar to Val Brown's

approach?

Mark Darling

Sunshine Coast, Australia

T3/T4

> Pete and others,

>

> I find T3/T4 with reward protocol is working

very well with

> migrainers.

> But when I lower the reward frequency to as

low as 2.5-6.5, it almost

> same with the inhibit frequency of 2-5Hz.

> What should I do with the inhibit?

> Should I lower the inhibit frequency too or

just inhibit hibeta and

> make it one reward and one inhibit protocol?

> How are you doing it?

>

> Jo Sato

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Jo Sato !

- here words oneself " VAL" :

" We do NOT treat anything. We do not site shift. We use C3 and C4 as the active sites for our standard two channel approach to training and find that this works quite well – even in situations where others would want to “site shift” in order to train in a more “localized” fashion according to their model..."

You might want to browse the www.zengar.com website to get some background information about NCP.

MSc Eng in Electronics Jan j

Studio EEG-Biofeedback

POLAND

T3/T4> Pete and others,>> I find T3/T4 with reward protocol is working very well with> migrainers.> But when I lower the reward frequency to as low as 2.5-6.5, it almost> same with the inhibit frequency of 2-5Hz.> What should I do with the inhibit?> Should I lower the inhibit frequency too or just inhibit hibeta and> make it one reward and one inhibit protocol?> How are you doing it?>> Jo Sato>>>>>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Jo Sato !

- here words oneself " VAL" :

" We do NOT treat anything. We do not site shift. We use C3 and C4 as the active sites for our standard two channel approach to training and find that this works quite well – even in situations where others would want to “site shift” in order to train in a more “localized” fashion according to their model..."

You might want to browse the www.zengar.com website to get some background information about NCP.

MSc Eng in Electronics Jan j

Studio EEG-Biofeedback

POLAND

T3/T4> Pete and others,>> I find T3/T4 with reward protocol is working very well with> migrainers.> But when I lower the reward frequency to as low as 2.5-6.5, it almost> same with the inhibit frequency of 2-5Hz.> What should I do with the inhibit?> Should I lower the inhibit frequency too or just inhibit hibeta and> make it one reward and one inhibit protocol?> How are you doing it?>> Jo Sato>>>>>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Jo Sato !

- here words oneself " VAL" :

" We do NOT treat anything. We do not site shift. We use C3 and C4 as the active sites for our standard two channel approach to training and find that this works quite well – even in situations where others would want to “site shift” in order to train in a more “localized” fashion according to their model..."

You might want to browse the www.zengar.com website to get some background information about NCP.

MSc Eng in Electronics Jan j

Studio EEG-Biofeedback

POLAND

T3/T4> Pete and others,>> I find T3/T4 with reward protocol is working very well with> migrainers.> But when I lower the reward frequency to as low as 2.5-6.5, it almost> same with the inhibit frequency of 2-5Hz.> What should I do with the inhibit?> Should I lower the inhibit frequency too or just inhibit hibeta and> make it one reward and one inhibit protocol?> How are you doing it?>> Jo Sato>>>>>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Jo Sato !

- here words oneself " VAL" :

" We do NOT treat anything. We do not site shift. We use C3 and C4 as the active sites for our standard two channel approach to training and find that this works quite well – even in situations where others would want to “site shift” in order to train in a more “localized” fashion according to their model..."

You might want to browse the www.zengar.com website to get some background information about NCP.

MSc Eng in Electronics Jan j

Studio EEG-Biofeedback

POLAND

T3/T4> Pete and others,>> I find T3/T4 with reward protocol is working very well with> migrainers.> But when I lower the reward frequency to as low as 2.5-6.5, it almost> same with the inhibit frequency of 2-5Hz.> What should I do with the inhibit?> Should I lower the inhibit frequency too or just inhibit hibeta and> make it one reward and one inhibit protocol?> How are you doing it?>> Jo Sato>>>>>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Jo Sato !

- here words oneself " VAL" :

" We do NOT treat anything. We do not site shift. We use C3 and C4 as the active sites for our standard two channel approach to training and find that this works quite well – even in situations where others would want to “site shift” in order to train in a more “localized” fashion according to their model..."

You might want to browse the www.zengar.com website to get some background information about NCP.

MSc Eng in Electronics Jan j

Studio EEG-Biofeedback

POLAND

T3/T4> Pete and others,>> I find T3/T4 with reward protocol is working very well with> migrainers.> But when I lower the reward frequency to as low as 2.5-6.5, it almost> same with the inhibit frequency of 2-5Hz.> What should I do with the inhibit?> Should I lower the inhibit frequency too or just inhibit hibeta and> make it one reward and one inhibit protocol?> How are you doing it?>> Jo Sato>>>>>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Pete and Millie.

Pete, I read your message about Tic disorder. You recommended C4/P4 or C4/Pz SMR up training, blocking slow and fast for Tics.

Is C4/P4 or C4/Pz 2 ch or Bipolar montage?

The clients have voices, eyes and nose tics.

I would appreciate your advice.

Esther,

From: pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> Sent: Tue, April 12, 2011 10:22:59 AMSubject: Re: T3/T4

I'd try both. Some clients will do better at one, some the other.If the difference is only in that band (hibeta) and not in others, then just train down hibeta if you are using a bipolar montage. If there are a variety of bands that are asymmetrical--and if you are sure this was not an error in data gathering (loose electrode or bad electrode on the lower side)--then train down the whole band and train up 12-15 Hz (if using bipolar montage), or use the 2C Sum Difference Squish in 2 channels.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Esther <esther2558@...> wrote:

Hello groups,

If the difference between T3 and T4 beta and H.B is 2:1, what is more effective, beta and H.B down at T4 OR T3-T4 bipolar training ?

Is the bipolar training of T3-T4 to decrease the difference between them so that the beta and H.B at T3 goes up for matching with T4 beta and H.B?

Esther,

[Guest guest]

Thanks Pete and Millie.

Pete, I read your message about Tic disorder. You recommended C4/P4 or C4/Pz SMR up training, blocking slow and fast for Tics.

Is C4/P4 or C4/Pz 2 ch or Bipolar montage?

The clients have voices, eyes and nose tics.

I would appreciate your advice.

Esther,

From: pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> Sent: Tue, April 12, 2011 10:22:59 AMSubject: Re: T3/T4

I'd try both. Some clients will do better at one, some the other.If the difference is only in that band (hibeta) and not in others, then just train down hibeta if you are using a bipolar montage. If there are a variety of bands that are asymmetrical--and if you are sure this was not an error in data gathering (loose electrode or bad electrode on the lower side)--then train down the whole band and train up 12-15 Hz (if using bipolar montage), or use the 2C Sum Difference Squish in 2 channels.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Esther <esther2558@...> wrote:

Hello groups,

If the difference between T3 and T4 beta and H.B is 2:1, what is more effective, beta and H.B down at T4 OR T3-T4 bipolar training ?

Is the bipolar training of T3-T4 to decrease the difference between them so that the beta and H.B at T3 goes up for matching with T4 beta and H.B?

Esther,

[Guest guest]

Esther,Tics aren't necessarily a physically-located thing.  You pretty much train to get the brain able to produce better and longer bursts of SMR in the sensory-motor cortex.  I've never been clear on what the particular rationale for C4/P4 (or Pz) was.  It was one of those things I heard about and tried out a few times and generally found useful, so I pass it on.

Whenever I write a montage string, the first space is Active CH1, 2nd is Ref CH1, the G for ground, then Active CH2 and finally Ref CH2.  A two channel montage would look like this: C4/A2/g/P4/A2.  So when I write C4/P4, that means a bipolar montage, in one channel, with C4 Active and P4 reference and the ground wherever on the client's body you want to place it.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Esther <esther2558@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Pete and Millie.

 

Pete, I read your message about Tic disorder. You recommended C4/P4 or C4/Pz SMR up training, blocking slow and fast for Tics.

Is  C4/P4 or C4/Pz  2 ch or Bipolar montage?

The clients have voices, eyes and nose tics.

I would appreciate your advice.

[Guest guest]

Esther,Tics aren't necessarily a physically-located thing.  You pretty much train to get the brain able to produce better and longer bursts of SMR in the sensory-motor cortex.  I've never been clear on what the particular rationale for C4/P4 (or Pz) was.  It was one of those things I heard about and tried out a few times and generally found useful, so I pass it on.

Whenever I write a montage string, the first space is Active CH1, 2nd is Ref CH1, the G for ground, then Active CH2 and finally Ref CH2.  A two channel montage would look like this: C4/A2/g/P4/A2.  So when I write C4/P4, that means a bipolar montage, in one channel, with C4 Active and P4 reference and the ground wherever on the client's body you want to place it.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Esther <esther2558@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Pete and Millie.

 

Pete, I read your message about Tic disorder. You recommended C4/P4 or C4/Pz SMR up training, blocking slow and fast for Tics.

Is  C4/P4 or C4/Pz  2 ch or Bipolar montage?

The clients have voices, eyes and nose tics.

I would appreciate your advice.

[Guest guest]

A question...a few months ago I posted my last test results, T4 slightly over

range TSH under one.....it was suggested that maybe I was not fully utilising T4

and it was 'pooling' and that maybe NDT or T3 would help . So I bought both!!

after reading around decided to go with T3,( did not want to self fund NDT for

the rest of my life!!!) been on 10mcgs for about 2 months now - the light in my

life has come on!!! BP ok, temps rising slightly,about 36 +, pulse still well

below 72....Do I have to reduce T4??? Was on 150, Dr reduced it to 125 as he

said I was hyper, after 2 days I took it back to 150 as constipation

happened....sorry guys...was NOT going thro that again!!!! Am waiting latest set

of results.

All responses will be gratefully appreciated.

Polly x

[Guest guest]

did your doc say you were hyper because of a low tsh? what is your iron status

like because apparently low iron = low tsh and low iron also makes it difficult

for the body to use t4 ...maybe low iron was why you were having problems.

how lovely that your light has come back on

trish

>

> A question...a few months ago I posted my last test results, T4 slightly over

range TSH under one.....it was suggested that maybe I was not fully utilising T4

and it was 'pooling' and that maybe NDT or T3 would help . So I bought both!!

after reading around decided to go with T3,( did not want to self fund NDT for

the rest of my life!!!) been on 10mcgs for about 2 months now - the light in my

life has come on!!! BP ok, temps rising slightly,about 36 +, pulse still well

below 72....Do I have to reduce T4??? Was on 150, Dr reduced it to 125 as he

said I was hyper, after 2 days I took it back to 150 as constipation

happened....sorry guys...was NOT going thro that again!!!! Am waiting latest set

of results.

> All responses will be gratefully appreciated.

> Polly x

>

[Guest guest]

Oooh Trish,

I've not heard about the low iron - low TSH before..... can you let me know

where you found that it's an interesting one.... My iron isn't great.... and

my tsh has been low for at least 10 years....

x

>

>

> did your doc say you were hyper because of a low tsh? what is your iron

status like because apparently low iron = low tsh

[Guest guest]

hi amanda

i've spent some time today trying to re-find where i came across this but to no

avail ...i wrote it down in a note book and remember thinking at the time that

it was usually the other way round due to low iron reducing deiodinase activity.

i know it was fairly recently that i came across this because i wrote it down

with my new purple pen!

trish

> >

> >

> > did your doc say you were hyper because of a low tsh? what is your iron

status like because apparently low iron = low tsh

>