New member

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the warm welcom!

" Northern ME Candle Co. " <northernmecandleco@...> wrote:Don't have a

recipe, however I'd like to welcome you to the group.

D.

deliciousretreats <deliciousretreats@...> wrote:

Hello,

My name is Jay and I am a new member. I am looking for a recipe for

room/linen sprays? Any suggestions? Thanks a million!

Flat Rate Shipping! Just $4.00 per order this week! See Site for details

http://www.glenbrookfarm.com/store/essent_1.html

Don't miss the weekly specials!

http://glenbrookfarm.com/store/specialsseeds_1.html

To unsub send an e-mail to :

-unsubscribe

[Guest guest]

Cyclomethicone is a silicone based oil

[Guest guest]

just a FYI.. since no one mentioned it.. room sprays using vodka can be for

personal use only, you cannot sell them.

[Guest guest]

I believe if you use vodka in your spray you must have a liquor license.

Angie

http://www.treasurestobehold.net

---------------------------------

for Good

Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

[Guest guest]

But if you want to sell them you can use rubbing alcohol that does the same

thing as vodka. So you can sell them.

too2bizymom@... wrote:just a FYI.. since no one mentioned it.. room sprays

using vodka can be for

personal use only, you cannot sell them.

[Guest guest]

I never heard of using vodka in calogne. Would the flavored kind work? I don't

have a liqour license though.AIM name: vampyressjessikawww.picturetrail.com user

name x_vampiress_jessika_xJessika

From: angie @ Treasures to Behold [mailto: treasurestobehold@...]To:

@...: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 03:32:40 -0700 (PDT)Subject:

Re: New MemberI believe if you use vodka in your spray you must

have a liquor

license.Angiehttp://www.treasurestobehold.net---------------------------------Ya\

hoo! for GoodClick here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

[Guest guest]

The vodka needs to be the highest proof you can find. You don't need

to use vodka, or rubbing alcohol. Just some polysorbate will do the

trick. As stated in a previous post, if you use vodka in your spray,

you can not sell it, it's for personal use only.

> I never heard of using vodka in calogne. Would the flavored kind

work? I don't have a liqour license though.AIM name:

[Guest guest]

On 9/23/2005 at 7:24:28 A.M. Central Standard Time you wrote:

Going through the list of practitioners who can handle this type of surgery, I came across Dr. Reardon. Is he still available and does anyone know his current email address/ telephone number?

, a member of this group used Dr. Reardon. Here is

what she posted in the list of doctors on our website.

Houston, Texas

Dr. Reardon

Head of Noninvasive Chest and Abdominal Surgery at Baylor College of Medicine

713-790-3140

myotemy and partial nissan Fundoplication

I am sure she'd be happy to recommend him. She doesn't post

much anymore but I am sending her your email and I am sure

she will get back to you on this, when she reads it. I recall

she had nothing but praise for him.

Good luck,

Maggie

Alabama

[Guest guest]

Mike,

Yes, that has been my experience as well. My OS only spends a couple

minutes, cancels my appointments and refuses to do anything more than

order PT or prescribe useless medications. I am now looking for a

new OS who is more " cut happy " .

I will introduce myself and tell my story soon.

Cheers,

-JT

>

>

> Re: New Member

>

>

> Doctors make a lot more money from doing surgery than

> > referring you to PT.

>

> My experience was that I had more doctors who were a little too

conservative

> and didn't listen to my cries for help and continued to send me to

PT even

> when it no longer helped. Good doctors don't need to solicit

business, they

> have plenty of it. The best doctors listen to their patients and

realize

> every case is different, especially where CP is involved.

>

> Mike

> MT

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Julius.

Welcome to the group.. We are a mixed bunch here but don't let that put you

offer. I'm sure you will enjoy the banter.

Regards

Dave.

>From: " juliuslovasz " <juliuslovasz@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: New member

>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:20:52 -0000

>

>Good day all

>

>My name is julius lovasz I am currently working in Iraq, I have been a

>paramedic for 4 yr's an LPN for 15yr's...

>

>I am fairly new to the remote medic field this is my first Job as a

>remote medic have been at it since January.

>

>I look forward to obtaining information to improve my knowledge in

>remote medicine through remote medics.

>

>I live in The U.S. in Louisiana, am married with four children...

>

> Regards Julius

>

>

>

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

The new MSN Search Toolbar now includes Desktop search!

http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave

Should have known you would be floating around this site, I believe I will

enjoy the site have already found some good information...

And I am sure since you are here it must be a lively lot...

Thanks & regards LUX

dave coole <davecoole@...> wrote:

Hi Julius.

Welcome to the group.. We are a mixed bunch here but don't let that put you

offer. I'm sure you will enjoy the banter.

Regards

Dave.

>From: " juliuslovasz " <juliuslovasz@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: New member

>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:20:52 -0000

>

>Good day all

>

>My name is julius lovasz I am currently working in Iraq, I have been a

>paramedic for 4 yr's an LPN for 15yr's...

>

>I am fairly new to the remote medic field this is my first Job as a

>remote medic have been at it since January.

>

>I look forward to obtaining information to improve my knowledge in

>remote medicine through remote medics.

>

>I live in The U.S. in Louisiana, am married with four children...

>

> Regards Julius

>

>

>

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

The new MSN Search Toolbar now includes Desktop search!

http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/

Member Information:

List owner: Ian Sharpe Owner@...

Editor: Ross Boardman Editor@...

ALL list admin messages (subscriptions & unsubscriptions) should be sent to the

list owner.

Post message: egroups

Please visit our website http://www.remotemedics.co.uk

Regards

The Remote Medics Team

[Guest guest]

Dear Randy,

Welcome to the forum if you are sincerly seeking answers and offering

non-commercial peer support. Did you read the home page of this

discussion forum before posting? I'm guessing not, since it clearly

states: " VIRUS IS A MYTH, VIRUS DOES NOT KILL " IOW, the alleged 'HIV'

is not a problem, nothing to treat about 'HIV' positivity.

Now this doesn't mean there's nothing to treat in persons diagnosed

with illnesses attributed to or associated with 'AIDS' and those are,

if caught in a reasonable amount of time since onset, indeed curable.

HOwever, since there are 30-something diverse diseases labeled " AIDS "

only in persons who test antibody positive on the socalled 'HIV' test,

these many courses have many cures. IOW, there is no one-cause, one-

course cure-all for the catch-all catagory called 'AIDS.'

Also, 'VIRAL LOAD' measurements are not valid or meaningful markers of

health and wellness nor do they measure or detect[identify] viruses in

your body. Read below for a summary analysis with references and links.

There are one or two persons on this forum who continue to follow their

socalled numbers but they are anomolies here. I suggest that you make

yur decision about such matters as unemotionally as you can, and apply

the rules of logic. Remember, anacdotal experience proves nothing

theoretically and the burden of proof is always upon the affirmative

statement. The burden of proof is upon those who claim something to

exist or cause something, and likewise to be a cure for something. And

correlation is not necessarily correlation. IOW, simply because two

events, using the " vibrational medicine " technique and having a

PCR " Viral Load " test before and after does not establish

that " vibrational medicine " is effective as a treatment for anything,

let alone the 30-something diverse diseases lumped under the 'AIDS'

catagory established arbitrarily by the CDC. Your premise assumes that

definition is valid for diagnosis and that the diagnostic tool, in this

case, " viral load " is also valid diagnostic tool. These are matters in

dispute by more than a few doctors and scientists and consumers and

advocates.

Healthfully and Hopefully,

Jon Landis

AIDS DISSIDENT SCIENTIFIC SUMMARY ANALYSIS

what is hiv?

No laboratory has ever obtained an undisputed sample of human

immunodeficiency virus (HIV), despite countless attempts. Most

laboratories, clinics and medical corporations have come to accept

indirect signs, or 'markers', such as antibody reactions, proteins,

genetic fragments, 'virus-like' particles, enzymes - that could suggest

a virus but also other things - as proving the presence and existence

of an 'HIV'.

If such a virus were ever isolated by standards applicable until the

late 1970s, the expectations are that it would be a retrovirus - a

concept of viruses adopted in the early 1970s. The genetic code of a

retrovirus would work 'backwards' - 'retro' - transforming RNA to DNA.

Most retroviruses are known as harmless passenger viruses a part of all

of endogenous or naturally occuring genetic make-up. 'HIV' has never

been found in suficient quantities to kill T-Cells and in fact there is

no concensus even after 20+ years as to 'HIV's cytotoxic or cell

killing mechanism. For a decade, researchers thought cancer was caused

by a retrovirus. Professor Duesberg, UC Berkeley, isolated the

first retrovirus and is a Father of Retrovirology says 'HIV' is a

harmless passenger virus that does not cause the syndrome known

as 'AIDS.'

In 1984 some signs suggesting a possible new virus were detected in

cell cultures by the scientific teams of Frenchman Luc Montagnier in

Paris, and American Gallo in Washington, who were trying to

explain a single cause for 'AIDS'. The French called their findings

Lymphadenopathy Associated Virus (LAV), the Americans called theirs

Human T-cell Lymphotrophic Virus III (HTLV-III). The US Government

announced at a press conference in 1984 that a new virus was " the

probable cause of AIDS, " yet before any scientific papers inviting peer

scrutiny were published. When such papers appeared in Science some

weeks later, a dispute erupted between Montagnier and Gallo. Gallo was

found guilty of scientific misconduct by a Senate Ethics Committee, for

misappropriating material and photographs of 'virus- like' particles

from the French. Because of the financial stakes - Gallo and the US

government applied for a patent for tests for 'HIV' the day of the

press conference - the matter was eventually solved only by a closed

meeting between the scientists which produced an official history of

events, and a meeting between the US and French Presidents.

However, neither Gallo nor Montagnier ever managed to purify samples of

the virus they claimed to have detected. Many scientists believe that

without fulfiling this traditional primary requirement of virus

isolation, multiple confusions at the molecular biological level are

inevitable over what or whether anything has actually been found. To

this day, primary purification of 'HIV' has never been achieved. The

last attempts, published in 1997 in Virology, revealed proteins and

genetic fragments from microvesicles - sub-cell particles - but no

virus.

hiv antibody tests

INDEX OF ARTICLES, PAPERS

http://www.healtoronto.com/hivtest.html

Over the years of the HIV/AIDS theory, different types of test have

been used to try to detect such a virus in patients. These have

included (1) antibody tests, which look for a reaction in a person's

blood between their natural antibodies and synthetic proteins said to

belong to HIV, and (2) Polymerase Chain Reaction - PCR - or 'viral

load' genetic tests, which purport to use part of the virus' genetic

code to detect its presence.

All these tests are indirect, or surrogate. They do not claim to detect

any whole virus. Rather, they use markers to infer whether a virus

might be present. Unfortunately for the accuracy of these tests, these

same markers can be found in a variety of non-HIV situations. No HIV

test of any kind has ever been validated against the one measure that

is not indirect - the gold standard: physical virus isolation. This is

because isolation of HIV by the previously conventional standards of

viral isolation has never been achieved, despite numerous attempts.

Of the antibody tests for HIV, there are two main types - called ELISA,

and Western Blot. Neither was designed especially for HIV, but are

examples of laboratory methodologies used in many investigations.

Around the world many companies market their versions of the ELISA and

Western Blot antibody tests for HIV.

However, the uncertain, unvalidated nature of these tests is reflected

in the product literature supplied by their manufacturers.

A typical example for the ELISA reads:

" At present there is no recognised standard for establishing the

presence or absence of antibodies to HIV-1 and HIV-2 in human blood. " -

Axsym System, Abbott Laboratories

A typical example for the Western Blot reads:

" Do not use this kit as the sole basis of diagnosis of HIV-1

infection. " - Epitope, Organon Teknika

Neither Isolation Nor Validation

Any scientist who declares that a genetic sequence, moreover a genetic

sequence arrived at by human concensus, represents a naturally occuring

virus, has compromised their scientific integrity. To further suggest

that this genetic sequence represents a unique, exogenous, sexually

transmitted and indeed pathogenic retrovirus is to enter the realms of

pseudo-science. Without HIV isolation all is mere speculation. Even if

HIV were isolated and the proteins tested for by the ELISA antibody

test were actually proteins specific to HIV, an antibody test would

still not be accurate enough for determining actual viral infection.

Everyone tests HIV positive on ELISA if their serum is not diluted by a

factor of 400 because of non-specific antibodies which bind to any

proteins.

" Of course we looked for it [HIV]... We saw some particles but they did

not have the morphology [shape] typical of retroviruses. ... I repeat

we did not purify. "

~ Dr. Luc Montagnier, the " discoverer of HIV "

(see French transcript of quote from the interview

http://healtoronto.com/lmfrench.html, Did Luc Montagnier Discover HIV?

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/dtinterviewlm.htm or video)

" No one believed we really had that many isolates... No one believed we

really meant that... "

~ Dr. Gallo, also discovered " HIV "

(see Gallo Investigated http://healtoronto.com/galloindex.html)

'viral load' / PCR test

Polymerase Chain Reaction - PCR - or the 'viral load' test, purports to

detect, and quantify, blood-borne HIV in patients. However, the genetic

fragments it amplifies have never been proved to originate in HIV, or

in any virus. The accuracy of PCR viral load is estimated by leading

doctors at plus or minus 300% - i.e. a reading of 90,000 could be

30,000 or 270,000!

The PCR was not invented for HIV. Its Nobel Prizewinning inventor, Dr

Kary Mullis, calls the use of PCR in AIDS medicine, " a tragedy in the

practice of Western medicine " and a " viral load of crap. "

The uncertain unvalidated nature of the PCR for HIV is reflected in the

product literature supplied by manufacturers. A typical example reads:

" The Amplicor HIV-1 Monitor test is not intended to be used as a

screening test for HIV or as a diagnostic test to confirm the presence

of HIV infection. " - Roche, Amplicor

VIRAL LOAD OF WHAT?

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/index/kmullis.htm

t-cells

Since the beginning of the HIV/AIDS theory, it has been suggested that

a virus kills a certain type of cell of the immune system - called T-

cells, or CD4 cells. 'T' refers to the maturing of these cells in the

gland of the Thymus, after their birth in the bone marrow. CD4 is short

for Cluster Differentiation 4, referring to a method by which

scientists group subsets of these cells according to protein markers on

their surface.

In fact there has never been any proof that an HIV kills these cells,

or indeed that even when they seem in low numbers in a person's blood,

cells have not instead migrated out of the blood to bone marrow and

elsewhere. Despite common assumptions, even by doctors, CD4/T-cell

counting remains a poor predictor of wellness and illness. Since the

Berlin World AIDS Conference of 1992 considerably less scientific

importance has been attached to T-cell counting. T-cell counts are

naturally variable, within an individual over time, between

individuals, and between communities. The technology for counting T-

cells is accurate only to approximately plus or minus 100 cells. The

cells sampled for counting are taken from a person's peripheral blood,

where it is widely accepted, less than 10% of a healthy person's T-

cells will ever be found.

CD-4 T-cells: What Do They Count For? [index of articles/papers]

http://healtoronto.com/cd4counts.html

what is aids?

Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS) is a medical diagnosis

applied since 1984 in some branches of medicine and the wider public

when a person perceived as infected with a human immunodeficiency virus

('HIV') experiences one of 29 conditions. But all of the 29 conditions

exist or occur in persons diagnosed 'HIV' antibody negative and are

only redefined as 'AIDS' when someone tests antibody positive.

'Acquired' specifies that the diagnosis does not apply to people with

inherent immune deficiencies. 'Immune Deficiency' is conventionally

taken to be the inability of a person's body to protect against

illness. Syndrome is a group of symptoms or conditions which seem to be

more or less linked.

The growing list of conditions defined 'in the presence of HIV

infection' since 1984 as AIDS, have already all been known for decades.

Thus TB plus 'HIV' is AIDS, TB without 'HIV' is TB. Cervical cancer

plus 'HIV' is AIDS, without is cervical cancer. Etc.

In the early 1980s the 'AIDS-indicator' conditions numbered two:

pneumocystis carinii pneumonia (thought to be caused by an

opportunistic protozöon, now thought to be fungal), and Kaposi's

Sarcoma (a quasi-cancer of the skin and other membranes, first reported

in 1887). These two conditions were found increasingly frequently in

the early 1980s in the USA and Europe in men having sex with men, and

were hypothesised as resulting from infectious immune deficiency,

inferred from counting people's peripheral T-cells.

The syndrome was for a while classified as Gay Related Immune

Deficiency (GRID). The list of 'defining' conditions has increased

substantially since 1984, though the major risk groups for 'AIDS' in

the West have remained men who have sex with men, people with

haemophilia (Haemophilia), and IV drug users (Drugs). Despite early

alarms, HIV/AIDS has never become a heterosexual epidemic in the West,

which does not mean it's a gay disease, but it has failed to meet the

parameters of the infectious model. 'HIV=AIDS' does not fulfill Koch's

Postulates as none of the apes injected with 'HIV' have

developed 'AIDS' conditions.

The international CDC definition of AIDS is specifically founded

on 'infection with HIV', assumed or demonstrated. Thus by definition it

is nearly impossible to have 'AIDS' that is not 'correlative'

with 'HIV', though it is widely accepted that 'Immune Deficiency' can

be 'Acquired' in a many ways. There are also many well documented

causes and treatments for all of the 29 'AIDS' redefined conditons or

for addressing aquired immune deficiency.

Between different regions of the globe, the criteria and means for

arriving at an AIDS diagnosis vary. There are at least seven varying

official criteria for diagnosing 'AIDS.'

In Africa, for example, the same official concept of AIDS can be found,

but since a meeting in 1985 in the city of Bangui, Cote d'Ivoire, the

World Health Organisation's Bangui AIDS Definition has allowed for

diagnosis of AIDS in Africa with no test performed for 'HIV', if a

person experiences the relatively common African symptoms of weight

loss, cough, fever and diarrhoea for more than a month.

HIV cannot be the cause of AIDS. Why would a virus infect 1% of the US

population and 30% of some Africa countries? Why would a virus cause

different symptoms depending on your age, gender, and location? Why

hasn't 20 years worth of research and billions of dollars spent created

a vaccine or " cure " ? Why do the pharmaceutical companies and the

government censor the scientists, doctors and laypeople that ask these

questions and provide reasonable answers?

The infectious model does not work that way. See how 'HIV=AIDS' unfills

Kochs' Three Postulates of the Infectious Model of Disease. This is why

there will never be an 'AIDS' vaccine or cure for 'AIDS' or a manner to

prevent transmission of the alleged 'HIV.'

'AIDS' IN AFRICA INDEX OF PAPERS, ARTICLES

http://healtoronto.com/africa.html

HIV Epidemiology or Epidemio-illogic: An AIDS Numbers Game

http://forums.delphiforums.com/innocuous/messages?msg=606.1

========================================

RESOURCES FOR FURTHER INFORMATION

========================================

The GROUP for the SCIENTIFIC REAPPRAISAL

of the HIV/AIDS HYPOTHESIS [100s of pages of articles, papers]

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/find.htm

BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL [bMJ]

MODERATED ONLINE DEBATE ON HIV/AIDS

http://bmj.com/cgi/eletters/326/7387/495

[Especially note referenced contributions of The Perth Group of

Austrailian AIDS Dissident Scientists, lead by biophysicist Eleni

Papadopulos-Eleopulos, whose other extensive archives are found here

http://www.theperthgroup.com

and here: http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/perthgroup/]

o Giraldo, MD

President of The Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV/AIDS

Hypothesis http://www.robertogiraldo.com/eng/papers/papers.html

TREATING AND PREVENTING ILLNESS ATTRIBUTED TO OR ASSOCIATED WITH " AIDS "

http://www.robertogiraldo.com/eng/papers/TreatingAndPreventingAIDS.html

REBUTTAL TO NIAID/NIH " Evidence for HIV " DOCUMENT

http://www.healtoronto.com/nih

INTERNATIONAL AIDS PANEL, INTERIM REPORT

Synthesis of deliberations by the panel of experts invited by the

President of South Africa, Thabo Mbeki and the ten experiments the

Panel designed in attempt to resolve the controversy, endorsed by the

African National Congress [AIDS Dissidents/'Denialists' and AIDS

Apologists/Orthodoxy]

http://www.polity.org.za/govdocs/reports/aids/aidspanel.htm

REBUTTAL TO DURBAN DECLARATION http://thedurbandeclaration.org/

HEAL [Health Education AIDS Liason]

http://www.healtoronto.com

ANOTHER LOOK [breastfeeding and 'HIV/AIDS']

http://www.anotherlook.org

MOMM [Mothers Opposing Mandatory Medicine]

http://www.informedmomm.com

AIDS MYTH EXPOSED

[Largest AIDS forum on MSN] http://www.aidsmythexposed.com

V I R U S M Y T H

[Largest AIDS forum on Delphi] http://forums.delphiforums.com/innocuous

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> As a new member I'll risk mentioning something that you may already

> know about. I've been using vibrational medicine in the form of the

> Molecular Enhancer for over a year. I think the results have been

> rather good. When I stopped taking meds I had a small but measureable

> viral load. I had my viral load tested twice since then and the viral

> load had only a negligbile increase. So it was essentially stable.

> I've recently started using another vibrational medicine machine in

> addition: the Photon Sound Beam. In addition to electrical energy it

> supplies radio frequencies. Its quite good at stopping colds and

> supposedly many other diseases. I guess I'll find out if it also stops

> HIV. Feel free to ask if you have questions about these machines.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Randy,

Welcome to the forum if you are sincerly seeking answers and offering

non-commercial peer support. Did you read the home page of this

discussion forum before posting? I'm guessing not, since it clearly

states: " VIRUS IS A MYTH, VIRUS DOES NOT KILL " IOW, the alleged 'HIV'

is not a problem, nothing to treat about 'HIV' positivity.

Now this doesn't mean there's nothing to treat in persons diagnosed

with illnesses attributed to or associated with 'AIDS' and those are,

if caught in a reasonable amount of time since onset, indeed curable.

HOwever, since there are 30-something diverse diseases labeled " AIDS "

only in persons who test antibody positive on the socalled 'HIV' test,

these many courses have many cures. IOW, there is no one-cause, one-

course cure-all for the catch-all catagory called 'AIDS.'

Also, 'VIRAL LOAD' measurements are not valid or meaningful markers of

health and wellness nor do they measure or detect[identify] viruses in

your body. Read below for a summary analysis with references and links.

There are one or two persons on this forum who continue to follow their

socalled numbers but they are anomolies here. I suggest that you make

yur decision about such matters as unemotionally as you can, and apply

the rules of logic. Remember, anacdotal experience proves nothing

theoretically and the burden of proof is always upon the affirmative

statement. The burden of proof is upon those who claim something to

exist or cause something, and likewise to be a cure for something. And

correlation is not necessarily correlation. IOW, simply because two

events, using the " vibrational medicine " technique and having a

PCR " Viral Load " test before and after does not establish

that " vibrational medicine " is effective as a treatment for anything,

let alone the 30-something diverse diseases lumped under the 'AIDS'

catagory established arbitrarily by the CDC. Your premise assumes that

definition is valid for diagnosis and that the diagnostic tool, in this

case, " viral load " is also valid diagnostic tool. These are matters in

dispute by more than a few doctors and scientists and consumers and

advocates.

Healthfully and Hopefully,

Jon Landis

AIDS DISSIDENT SCIENTIFIC SUMMARY ANALYSIS

what is hiv?

No laboratory has ever obtained an undisputed sample of human

immunodeficiency virus (HIV), despite countless attempts. Most

laboratories, clinics and medical corporations have come to accept

indirect signs, or 'markers', such as antibody reactions, proteins,

genetic fragments, 'virus-like' particles, enzymes - that could suggest

a virus but also other things - as proving the presence and existence

of an 'HIV'.

If such a virus were ever isolated by standards applicable until the

late 1970s, the expectations are that it would be a retrovirus - a

concept of viruses adopted in the early 1970s. The genetic code of a

retrovirus would work 'backwards' - 'retro' - transforming RNA to DNA.

Most retroviruses are known as harmless passenger viruses a part of all

of endogenous or naturally occuring genetic make-up. 'HIV' has never

been found in suficient quantities to kill T-Cells and in fact there is

no concensus even after 20+ years as to 'HIV's cytotoxic or cell

killing mechanism. For a decade, researchers thought cancer was caused

by a retrovirus. Professor Duesberg, UC Berkeley, isolated the

first retrovirus and is a Father of Retrovirology says 'HIV' is a

harmless passenger virus that does not cause the syndrome known

as 'AIDS.'

In 1984 some signs suggesting a possible new virus were detected in

cell cultures by the scientific teams of Frenchman Luc Montagnier in

Paris, and American Gallo in Washington, who were trying to

explain a single cause for 'AIDS'. The French called their findings

Lymphadenopathy Associated Virus (LAV), the Americans called theirs

Human T-cell Lymphotrophic Virus III (HTLV-III). The US Government

announced at a press conference in 1984 that a new virus was " the

probable cause of AIDS, " yet before any scientific papers inviting peer

scrutiny were published. When such papers appeared in Science some

weeks later, a dispute erupted between Montagnier and Gallo. Gallo was

found guilty of scientific misconduct by a Senate Ethics Committee, for

misappropriating material and photographs of 'virus- like' particles

from the French. Because of the financial stakes - Gallo and the US

government applied for a patent for tests for 'HIV' the day of the

press conference - the matter was eventually solved only by a closed

meeting between the scientists which produced an official history of

events, and a meeting between the US and French Presidents.

However, neither Gallo nor Montagnier ever managed to purify samples of

the virus they claimed to have detected. Many scientists believe that

without fulfiling this traditional primary requirement of virus

isolation, multiple confusions at the molecular biological level are

inevitable over what or whether anything has actually been found. To

this day, primary purification of 'HIV' has never been achieved. The

last attempts, published in 1997 in Virology, revealed proteins and

genetic fragments from microvesicles - sub-cell particles - but no

virus.

hiv antibody tests

INDEX OF ARTICLES, PAPERS

http://www.healtoronto.com/hivtest.html

Over the years of the HIV/AIDS theory, different types of test have

been used to try to detect such a virus in patients. These have

included (1) antibody tests, which look for a reaction in a person's

blood between their natural antibodies and synthetic proteins said to

belong to HIV, and (2) Polymerase Chain Reaction - PCR - or 'viral

load' genetic tests, which purport to use part of the virus' genetic

code to detect its presence.

All these tests are indirect, or surrogate. They do not claim to detect

any whole virus. Rather, they use markers to infer whether a virus

might be present. Unfortunately for the accuracy of these tests, these

same markers can be found in a variety of non-HIV situations. No HIV

test of any kind has ever been validated against the one measure that

is not indirect - the gold standard: physical virus isolation. This is

because isolation of HIV by the previously conventional standards of

viral isolation has never been achieved, despite numerous attempts.

Of the antibody tests for HIV, there are two main types - called ELISA,

and Western Blot. Neither was designed especially for HIV, but are

examples of laboratory methodologies used in many investigations.

Around the world many companies market their versions of the ELISA and

Western Blot antibody tests for HIV.

However, the uncertain, unvalidated nature of these tests is reflected

in the product literature supplied by their manufacturers.

A typical example for the ELISA reads:

" At present there is no recognised standard for establishing the

presence or absence of antibodies to HIV-1 and HIV-2 in human blood. " -

Axsym System, Abbott Laboratories

A typical example for the Western Blot reads:

" Do not use this kit as the sole basis of diagnosis of HIV-1

infection. " - Epitope, Organon Teknika

Neither Isolation Nor Validation

Any scientist who declares that a genetic sequence, moreover a genetic

sequence arrived at by human concensus, represents a naturally occuring

virus, has compromised their scientific integrity. To further suggest

that this genetic sequence represents a unique, exogenous, sexually

transmitted and indeed pathogenic retrovirus is to enter the realms of

pseudo-science. Without HIV isolation all is mere speculation. Even if

HIV were isolated and the proteins tested for by the ELISA antibody

test were actually proteins specific to HIV, an antibody test would

still not be accurate enough for determining actual viral infection.

Everyone tests HIV positive on ELISA if their serum is not diluted by a

factor of 400 because of non-specific antibodies which bind to any

proteins.

" Of course we looked for it [HIV]... We saw some particles but they did

not have the morphology [shape] typical of retroviruses. ... I repeat

we did not purify. "

~ Dr. Luc Montagnier, the " discoverer of HIV "

(see French transcript of quote from the interview

http://healtoronto.com/lmfrench.html, Did Luc Montagnier Discover HIV?

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/dtinterviewlm.htm or video)

" No one believed we really had that many isolates... No one believed we

really meant that... "

~ Dr. Gallo, also discovered " HIV "

(see Gallo Investigated http://healtoronto.com/galloindex.html)

'viral load' / PCR test

Polymerase Chain Reaction - PCR - or the 'viral load' test, purports to

detect, and quantify, blood-borne HIV in patients. However, the genetic

fragments it amplifies have never been proved to originate in HIV, or

in any virus. The accuracy of PCR viral load is estimated by leading

doctors at plus or minus 300% - i.e. a reading of 90,000 could be

30,000 or 270,000!

The PCR was not invented for HIV. Its Nobel Prizewinning inventor, Dr

Kary Mullis, calls the use of PCR in AIDS medicine, " a tragedy in the

practice of Western medicine " and a " viral load of crap. "

The uncertain unvalidated nature of the PCR for HIV is reflected in the

product literature supplied by manufacturers. A typical example reads:

" The Amplicor HIV-1 Monitor test is not intended to be used as a

screening test for HIV or as a diagnostic test to confirm the presence

of HIV infection. " - Roche, Amplicor

VIRAL LOAD OF WHAT?

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/index/kmullis.htm

t-cells

Since the beginning of the HIV/AIDS theory, it has been suggested that

a virus kills a certain type of cell of the immune system - called T-

cells, or CD4 cells. 'T' refers to the maturing of these cells in the

gland of the Thymus, after their birth in the bone marrow. CD4 is short

for Cluster Differentiation 4, referring to a method by which

scientists group subsets of these cells according to protein markers on

their surface.

In fact there has never been any proof that an HIV kills these cells,

or indeed that even when they seem in low numbers in a person's blood,

cells have not instead migrated out of the blood to bone marrow and

elsewhere. Despite common assumptions, even by doctors, CD4/T-cell

counting remains a poor predictor of wellness and illness. Since the

Berlin World AIDS Conference of 1992 considerably less scientific

importance has been attached to T-cell counting. T-cell counts are

naturally variable, within an individual over time, between

individuals, and between communities. The technology for counting T-

cells is accurate only to approximately plus or minus 100 cells. The

cells sampled for counting are taken from a person's peripheral blood,

where it is widely accepted, less than 10% of a healthy person's T-

cells will ever be found.

CD-4 T-cells: What Do They Count For? [index of articles/papers]

http://healtoronto.com/cd4counts.html

what is aids?

Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS) is a medical diagnosis

applied since 1984 in some branches of medicine and the wider public

when a person perceived as infected with a human immunodeficiency virus

('HIV') experiences one of 29 conditions. But all of the 29 conditions

exist or occur in persons diagnosed 'HIV' antibody negative and are

only redefined as 'AIDS' when someone tests antibody positive.

'Acquired' specifies that the diagnosis does not apply to people with

inherent immune deficiencies. 'Immune Deficiency' is conventionally

taken to be the inability of a person's body to protect against

illness. Syndrome is a group of symptoms or conditions which seem to be

more or less linked.

The growing list of conditions defined 'in the presence of HIV

infection' since 1984 as AIDS, have already all been known for decades.

Thus TB plus 'HIV' is AIDS, TB without 'HIV' is TB. Cervical cancer

plus 'HIV' is AIDS, without is cervical cancer. Etc.

In the early 1980s the 'AIDS-indicator' conditions numbered two:

pneumocystis carinii pneumonia (thought to be caused by an

opportunistic protozöon, now thought to be fungal), and Kaposi's

Sarcoma (a quasi-cancer of the skin and other membranes, first reported

in 1887). These two conditions were found increasingly frequently in

the early 1980s in the USA and Europe in men having sex with men, and

were hypothesised as resulting from infectious immune deficiency,

inferred from counting people's peripheral T-cells.

The syndrome was for a while classified as Gay Related Immune

Deficiency (GRID). The list of 'defining' conditions has increased

substantially since 1984, though the major risk groups for 'AIDS' in

the West have remained men who have sex with men, people with

haemophilia (Haemophilia), and IV drug users (Drugs). Despite early

alarms, HIV/AIDS has never become a heterosexual epidemic in the West,

which does not mean it's a gay disease, but it has failed to meet the

parameters of the infectious model. 'HIV=AIDS' does not fulfill Koch's

Postulates as none of the apes injected with 'HIV' have

developed 'AIDS' conditions.

The international CDC definition of AIDS is specifically founded

on 'infection with HIV', assumed or demonstrated. Thus by definition it

is nearly impossible to have 'AIDS' that is not 'correlative'

with 'HIV', though it is widely accepted that 'Immune Deficiency' can

be 'Acquired' in a many ways. There are also many well documented

causes and treatments for all of the 29 'AIDS' redefined conditons or

for addressing aquired immune deficiency.

Between different regions of the globe, the criteria and means for

arriving at an AIDS diagnosis vary. There are at least seven varying

official criteria for diagnosing 'AIDS.'

In Africa, for example, the same official concept of AIDS can be found,

but since a meeting in 1985 in the city of Bangui, Cote d'Ivoire, the

World Health Organisation's Bangui AIDS Definition has allowed for

diagnosis of AIDS in Africa with no test performed for 'HIV', if a

person experiences the relatively common African symptoms of weight

loss, cough, fever and diarrhoea for more than a month.

HIV cannot be the cause of AIDS. Why would a virus infect 1% of the US

population and 30% of some Africa countries? Why would a virus cause

different symptoms depending on your age, gender, and location? Why

hasn't 20 years worth of research and billions of dollars spent created

a vaccine or " cure " ? Why do the pharmaceutical companies and the

government censor the scientists, doctors and laypeople that ask these

questions and provide reasonable answers?

The infectious model does not work that way. See how 'HIV=AIDS' unfills

Kochs' Three Postulates of the Infectious Model of Disease. This is why

there will never be an 'AIDS' vaccine or cure for 'AIDS' or a manner to

prevent transmission of the alleged 'HIV.'

'AIDS' IN AFRICA INDEX OF PAPERS, ARTICLES

http://healtoronto.com/africa.html

HIV Epidemiology or Epidemio-illogic: An AIDS Numbers Game

http://forums.delphiforums.com/innocuous/messages?msg=606.1

========================================

RESOURCES FOR FURTHER INFORMATION

========================================

The GROUP for the SCIENTIFIC REAPPRAISAL

of the HIV/AIDS HYPOTHESIS [100s of pages of articles, papers]

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/find.htm

BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL [bMJ]

MODERATED ONLINE DEBATE ON HIV/AIDS

http://bmj.com/cgi/eletters/326/7387/495

[Especially note referenced contributions of The Perth Group of

Austrailian AIDS Dissident Scientists, lead by biophysicist Eleni

Papadopulos-Eleopulos, whose other extensive archives are found here

http://www.theperthgroup.com

and here: http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/perthgroup/]

o Giraldo, MD

President of The Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV/AIDS

Hypothesis http://www.robertogiraldo.com/eng/papers/papers.html

TREATING AND PREVENTING ILLNESS ATTRIBUTED TO OR ASSOCIATED WITH " AIDS "

http://www.robertogiraldo.com/eng/papers/TreatingAndPreventingAIDS.html

REBUTTAL TO NIAID/NIH " Evidence for HIV " DOCUMENT

http://www.healtoronto.com/nih

INTERNATIONAL AIDS PANEL, INTERIM REPORT

Synthesis of deliberations by the panel of experts invited by the

President of South Africa, Thabo Mbeki and the ten experiments the

Panel designed in attempt to resolve the controversy, endorsed by the

African National Congress [AIDS Dissidents/'Denialists' and AIDS

Apologists/Orthodoxy]

http://www.polity.org.za/govdocs/reports/aids/aidspanel.htm

REBUTTAL TO DURBAN DECLARATION http://thedurbandeclaration.org/

HEAL [Health Education AIDS Liason]

http://www.healtoronto.com

ANOTHER LOOK [breastfeeding and 'HIV/AIDS']

http://www.anotherlook.org

MOMM [Mothers Opposing Mandatory Medicine]

http://www.informedmomm.com

AIDS MYTH EXPOSED

[Largest AIDS forum on MSN] http://www.aidsmythexposed.com

V I R U S M Y T H

[Largest AIDS forum on Delphi] http://forums.delphiforums.com/innocuous

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> As a new member I'll risk mentioning something that you may already

> know about. I've been using vibrational medicine in the form of the

> Molecular Enhancer for over a year. I think the results have been

> rather good. When I stopped taking meds I had a small but measureable

> viral load. I had my viral load tested twice since then and the viral

> load had only a negligbile increase. So it was essentially stable.

> I've recently started using another vibrational medicine machine in

> addition: the Photon Sound Beam. In addition to electrical energy it

> supplies radio frequencies. Its quite good at stopping colds and

> supposedly many other diseases. I guess I'll find out if it also stops

> HIV. Feel free to ask if you have questions about these machines.

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Cheyenne,

Welcome! I think you'll like this group a lot. It's one of my favorite

lists, one reason being is that it's low-volume! ;-)

I grew up in Eau , WI. Just curious- tell me what you do with the

milk of 55 Holsteins? Does the milk go to Organic Valley?

Sara R.- Eagan, MN

isaiah7_25 <ckfarm@...> wrote:

Hi, My name is Cheyenne Christianson. I'm from Chetek, WI. My wife

and I have 7 children and operate a certified organic dairy with 55

holsteins. We have fed no grain for 6 years. We do intensive grazing

in summer and feed hay in winter. I posted some pics in photos of

some of the cows and the turnips and oats that we pasture in late fall

to extend the season.

I am a big believer in eating good food, and that includes raw milk.

We have had all babies at home, and eat mostly organic food. Always

room for improvement so look forward to learning more.

Cheyenne

[Guest guest]

Yes, we ship to Organic Valley. We got on the truck in 1999. It is

so exciting to see the organic movement growing like it is.

Thanks, Cheyenne

>

> Hey Cheyenne,

> Welcome! I think you'll like this group a lot. It's one of my

favorite lists, one reason being is that it's low-volume! ;-)

> I grew up in Eau , WI. Just curious- tell me what you do

with the milk of 55 Holsteins? Does the milk go to Organic Valley?

> Sara R.- Eagan, MN

>

[Guest guest]

Taru,

Welcome!

I'm curious: are vaccinations mandatory in Finland?

Sheri B. (not to be confused with the group leader, Sheri N.) : )

" Taru K. " <taruavaitotta@...> wrote:

Hello everyone,

My name is Taru and I'm a new member on this list. I'm a mother of 1-year 5

months old girl from Finland. I started to look for information about the

vaccinations after my friend got MS from B-hepatitis vax. I'm sick of worry now

since me and my daughter were also vaccinated against B-hepatitis. Reason for

that was our nurse who recommended it because my husband has had it in the 80's

or something. I asked about the side effects and she replied that only minor

skin irritation might appear right after injection. I was SO STUPID that I

didn't find out about these things myself but instead believed her. Now when

I've been reading more, it is said clearly that B-hep vax can cause rare side

effects like MS. How can I ever forgive myself for not finding out in advance?

Especially if something comes out..

Next wax that we should take at 18 months is MPR, but I've now decided not to

take it, at least not yet, especially because my daughter already got three

extra virus injections of that B-hep. And of course I've found many articles

about possible links between autism and measles vaccine. I was also horrified

to find out that they used old polio vaccines until the end of last year that

contain lots of tiomersal. It is so difficult to live with that sort of

information and blaim myself on not knowing earlier. My husband is not

interested at all in these things but instead believes in public opinion that

it is good to take all waxes, it is hard to think of these alone. So thanks

for sharing!

Taru

---------------------------------

Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at

[Guest guest]

Vaccinations are not mandatory in Finland (although in my opinion some nurses

act as if they were).

Taru

" Sheri B. " <tallchick1966@...> wrote: Taru,

Welcome!

I'm curious: are vaccinations mandatory in Finland?

Sheri B. (not to be confused with the group leader, Sheri N.) : )

" Taru K. " <taruavaitotta@...> wrote:

Hello everyone,

My name is Taru and I'm a new member on this list. I'm a mother of 1-year 5

months old girl from Finland. I started to look for information about the

vaccinations after my friend got MS from B-hepatitis vax. I'm sick of worry

now since me and my daughter were also vaccinated against B-hepatitis. Reason

for that was our nurse who recommended it because my husband has had it in

the 80's or something. I asked about the side effects and she replied that

only minor skin irritation might appear right after injection. I was SO STUPID

that I didn't find out about these things myself but instead believed her. Now

when I've been reading more, it is said clearly that B-hep vax can cause rare

side effects like MS. How can I ever forgive myself for not finding out in

advance? Especially if something comes out..

Next wax that we should take at 18 months is MPR, but I've now decided not

to take it, at least not yet, especially because my daughter already got three

extra virus injections of that B-hep. And of course I've found many articles

about possible links between autism and measles vaccine. I was also horrified

to find out that they used old polio vaccines until the end of last year that

contain lots of tiomersal. It is so difficult to live with that sort of

information and blaim myself on not knowing earlier. My husband is not

interested at all in these things but instead believes in public opinion that

it is good to take all waxes, it is hard to think of these alone. So thanks

for sharing!

Taru

---------------------------------

Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at

[Guest guest]

that's usual everywhere!

Sheri

At 11:42 AM 12/11/2005 -0800, you wrote:

>

>Vaccinations are not mandatory in Finland (although in my opinion some

nurses act as if they were).

>

> Taru

>

> " Sheri B. " <tallchick1966@...> wrote: Taru,

>

> Welcome!

>

> I'm curious: are vaccinations mandatory in Finland?

>

>

> Sheri B. (not to be confused with the group leader, Sheri N.) : )

>

> " Taru K. " <taruavaitotta@...> wrote:

> Hello everyone,

> My name is Taru and I'm a new member on this list. I'm a mother of

1-year 5 months old girl from Finland. I started to look for information

about the vaccinations after my friend got MS from B-hepatitis vax. I'm

sick of worry now since me and my daughter were also vaccinated against

B-hepatitis. Reason for that was our nurse who recommended it because my

husband has had it in the 80's or something. I asked about the side

effects and she replied that only minor skin irritation might appear

right after injection. I was SO STUPID that I didn't find out about

these things myself but instead believed her. Now when I've been reading

more, it is said clearly that B-hep vax can cause rare side effects like

MS. How can I ever forgive myself for not finding out in advance?

Especially if something comes out..

>

> Next wax that we should take at 18 months is MPR, but I've now

decided not to take it, at least not yet, especially because my daughter

already got three extra virus injections of that B-hep. And of course

I've found many articles about possible links between autism and measles

vaccine. I was also horrified to find out that they used old polio

vaccines until the end of last year that contain lots of tiomersal. It is

so difficult to live with that sort of information and blaim myself on

not knowing earlier. My husband is not interested at all in these things

but instead believes in public opinion that it is good to take all waxes,

it is hard to think of these alone. So thanks for sharing!

>

> Taru

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

>

> Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/2/06 7:42:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kate224@... writes:

best WW or or the plate... but have just right

My opionion is richard and ww are very much alike. It is well balanced. Depending on which works for you and your lifestyle. For me I do WW BUT look back often at my foodmover to reeducate myself on startches, and such.

NH... Mom to Abby Liz 10/94 Anne 7/99

[Guest guest]

Welcome, Kate! Glad you are joining right in, look forward to getting to know you.

[Guest guest]

Hi Kate & Welcome! The best diet is the one that

works for you - the one you can follow. You're

off to a great start.

--- Kates Home <kate224@...> wrote:

> Hi Everyone... Well I started my diet last week

when the doctor told me I'm 340 lbs and wont

weigh again till Tuesday .

> I will check in and let you know how I'm doing.

I have decided to start out slowly and build up

from there I am keeping

> track of the exercise I do and exchanges. I

don't know which diet is best WW or or

the plate... but have just

> right now been eating less starches , more

veggies and fruit..

> Thanks for letting me join! Kate

Live, Love, Laugh

[Guest guest]

Welcome, Kate! Like your graphic of 's doll.

> and wont weigh again till Tuesday .

Smart girl! Once a week is enough, otherwise you start to panic (like I do)

at the day-to-day *normal* fluctuations in weight. I can gain and lose 5 or

more pounds each day.

> I have decided to start out slowly and build up from there

You'll see us refer to " baby steps " quite frequently here.

> and exchanges.

Our Files section, and our sister list RSDeal

rsdeal have loads of recipes with the

exchanges already figured out for you.

> I don't know which diet is best WW or or the plate... but have

just

> right now been eating less starches , more veggies and fruit..

Do you like gadgets? The the Foodmover might be for you. WW has a few

different plans to chose from right now, and what do you mean by " the

plate'?

And don't be scared of starches! Our body needs those carbs for energy! Just

be sure to chose the *right* ones. Try switching from white bread to whole

wheat (Read labels, because many " whole wheat " breads are still mostly white

flour.), eat more whole grains, like brown rice, barley, quinoa, etc.

instead of over processed white rice. Be careful of what you put on your

potatoes - don't smother them in fats like sour cream or butter.

Oh, and check our Files and Links sections for oodles of info that can help

you on your journey.

Sue in NJ

[Guest guest]

Hi Jane

We're in the UK too, how old are your children?, my daughter is two

and a half and unvaccinated, i am part vaxed as is my husband. There

are quite a few here with older children, there's also a UK group

sideline for specifics, if you'd like info on that lmk.

& Ammber

In Vaccinations , " Mike Ruell " <jane@c...> wrote:

>

> Hello

> I'm just introducing myself to the group. I am unvaccinated and

have chosen not to vaccinate my two children. I live on a working

livestock farm and I grow vegetables. I look forward to hearing some

of your wisdom.

>

> Jane Ruell

> Somerset

> England

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jane --

Welcome to the group. I'm and I live in NY. I'm part vaxed -- most

of the rest of the stuff I had the actual illness. My kids are also part

vaxed, both have had chicken pox illness (not vax), and my son had whooping

cough - but very mild.

Health & blessings,

Project MAHMA -- Moms At Home Making A difference...

and a lot of money!

http://www.ExcitingHealth.CreateMyFuture.com

http://www.Shaklee.net/ExcitingHealth

1-866-312-8064

[Guest guest]

Welcome, Jane. I recently moved from a sleepy village in Somerset to live

in Australia with my dh and unvaccinated 8yo daughter. What a pity you

didn't join before we left!

I hope you enjoy it here - some very good people on list.

Love, light and peace,

Sue

" For those who believe, no proof is necessary.

For those who don't believe, no proof is possible. "

>

> Hello

> I'm just introducing myself to the group. I am unvaccinated and

> have chosen not to vaccinate my two children. I live on a

> working livestock farm and I grow vegetables. I look forward to

> hearing some of your wisdom.

>

> Jane Ruell

> Somerset

> England

>