Guest guest Posted November 16, 2000 Report Share Posted November 16, 2000 nathan does combos but his doc only increases one at a time to see which one is or isnt working. shawna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 One day. Val [ ] Overdose Can anyone please tell me how long a bad reaction lasts when you've taken too much MMS? My husband did 15 drops this morning and cannot get out of bad now. Bad cramps and pain. He had taken 15 drops this weekend fine, but he must have had food in his stomach and not realized it. I would appreciate any advice and responses on this. Thank you, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Did you give him Vitamin C to counteract it? That would make the time shorter. I took 8 drops once and had a stomach ache and cramps most of night - I didnt use vitamin Cthough which might make it better faster. Valery Galperin <lordnval@...> wrote: One day. Val [ ] Overdose Can anyone please tell me how long a bad reaction lasts when you've taken too much MMS? My husband did 15 drops this morning and cannot get out of bad now. Bad cramps and pain. He had taken 15 drops this weekend fine, but he must have had food in his stomach and not realized it. I would appreciate any advice and responses on this. Thank you, Wilkins http//:www.juiceplus.com/+lw55887 The Children's Research Foundation Children 6-15 FREE for 3 years __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 I have Vit. C, but when once I got cramps, I decided to see what will be and did not take Vit. C. It is always good to begin to take MMS very slow. I take certain number of the drops, starting from ONE, and repeating that number 3 days on a row. Nothing serious if take to much but why to hurry? Val [ ] Overdose Can anyone please tell me how long a bad reaction lasts when you've taken too much MMS? My husband did 15 drops this morning and cannot get out of bad now. Bad cramps and pain. He had taken 15 drops this weekend fine, but he must have had food in his stomach and not realized it. I would appreciate any advice and responses on this. Thank you, Wilkins http//:www.juiceplus.com/+lw55887 The Children's Research Foundation Children 6-15 FREE for 3 years __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Thank you for your responses. He had been going very slowly. He just decided that after he got to 12 drops he would go for the 15 on the weekend and if he got sick he would be home to sleep it off. But he was fine yesterday. He has babesia which is very similar ro malaria so we thought he had already worked his way up slowly he would go for the 15 to try to knock the remainder out him. He took vit. C to try to stop it but I think it was too late. Thanks for the input. -- Re: [ ] Overdose I have Vit. C, but when once I got cramps, I decided to see what will be and did not take Vit. C. It is always good to begin to take MMS very slow. I take certain number of the drops, starting from ONE, and repeating that number 3 days on a row. Nothing serious if take to much but why to hurry? Val [ ] Overdose Can anyone please tell me how long a bad reaction lasts when you've taken too much MMS? My husband did 15 drops this morning and cannot get out of bad now. Bad cramps and pain. He had taken 15 drops this weekend fine, but he must have had food in his stomach and not realized it. I would appreciate any advice and responses on this. Thank you, Wilkins http//:www.juiceplus.com/+lw55887 The Children's Research Foundation Children 6-15 FREE for 3 years __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 My experience is 3 days of liquid bowel movements. Chuck You might be a redneck computer junkie if... Ya think www. in a url is a logo for a wrasslin' organization. Yer mouse keeps knocking over yer spit can. On 11/12/2007 1:04:54 PM, susan (ssiegel5@...) wrote: > Can anyone please tell me how long a bad reaction lasts when you've taken too much MMS? > > My husband did 15 drops this morning and cannot get out of bad now. Bad cramps and pain. He had taken 15 drops this weekend fine, but he must have had food in his stomach and not realized it. > > I would appreciate any advice and responses on this. > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > [image " Free " ] [link: www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=101218] [image] > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2010 Report Share Posted September 14, 2010 Hi there! Just wondering is there a limit on the dosage of Omega 369 and EPA? I read that the ratio is 2:1 - 2 Caps ProEFA (Omega 369) abd 1 cap for EPA. DS is 60 Ibs (8.6years old). Can I dose morning and evening... Means 4 caps Omega 369 and 2 caps for EPA?? What is the max dose for his age and weight if there was one? Also, I got the " EPA extra " instead of EPA. Is that OK to just go ahead? Thanks a lot! Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2010 Report Share Posted September 15, 2010 I don't know the difference between the " extra " and regular EPA, but general speaking one should not go over 3 grams of fish oils per day without doctor's approval since amounts over 3 grams can cause bleeding issues in some individuals. From: lokesp@... Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 11:58:16 +0800 Subject: Re: [ ] Overdose Hi there! Just wondering is there a limit on the dosage of Omega 369 and EPA? I read that the ratio is 2:1 - 2 Caps ProEFA (Omega 369) abd 1 cap for EPA. DS is 60 Ibs (8.6years old). Can I dose morning and evening... Means 4 caps Omega 369 and 2 caps for EPA?? What is the max dose for his age and weight if there was one? Also, I got the " EPA extra " instead of EPA. Is that OK to just go ahead? Thanks a lot! Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2010 Report Share Posted September 15, 2010 The EPA extra is too high and raises the EPA/O3 too much over the O6 for the majority. It's more expensive anyway- no need for the added expense. As many in this group learn the hard way -paying more in money, time, doesn't always mean better or more effective therapy. Just use the regular ProEPA for the child and you or your spouse can take the extra. Now here's more about dosage -and if anyone doubts anything I have here again I just posted another message and as I have to keep archiving the same info over and over and over -even I get bored sometimes and wanted to share new info...but be assured I have way more information to support that yes you can use more than 3 grams a fish oils a day -even with toddlers -this group has for years. As I say below I'm not saying don't share with your child's doctor -but we are an intelligent group -let's stop perpetuating myths! I know this is one of the myths from reputable sources too and shame on them -but the major issue isn't the fish oils -it is for those who are on medications with or without fish oils. Man made in nutrition doesn't work nearly as well as Mother Nature made!!! It probably took forever back then to get people to stop parroting that the Earth is flat! At one point all have to look at proof and separate fact from fiction -those using fish oils alone vs those using fish oils and blood thinners!! Also I just have one study below which was with 9 grams a day -most studies I have seen with fish oils are 6 grams a day or higher even in children. And what about this one for ADHD with 16 grams a day which many experts say is typical for Eskimos. " but the successful studies have used rather large doses (up to 16 g fish oil per day). " Note they don't say the ADHD people that had success had bleeding issues -one would think that was a slight side effect of the therapy that WOULD have been mentioned ...don't you think?!!! Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) - an omega-3 deficiency? GUELPH, ONTARIO, CANADA. The development of an assay for EPA and DHA in red blood cell fatty acids has made possible a number of interesting studies from sudden cardiac death to ADHD. In a just published study from the University of Guelph in Ontario, researchers examined the association between both dietary intake and red blood cell fatty acid status in a group of adolescents diagnosed with ADHD as compared to an age-matched control group. Both groups had similar anthropometric measurements such as weight, height, % fat mass, etc. Both groups consumed equivalent amounts of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids but the ADHD group consumed more energy and fat even though they had similar anthropometry. The ADHD children had significantly lower red blood cell levels of DHA and total omega-3 fatty acids, higher omega-6 fatty acids and a lower omega-3 to omega-6 ratio. In addition, this lower omega-3 status correlated with scores obtained with a standard behaviour measurement scale (the Conners' Parent Rating Scale or CPRS). The authors point out that these abnormal fatty acid profiles are also observed in younger ADHD children and again are distinctly different from controls of a similar age. Given that the dietary intakes in this study were similar, the results suggest that there are metabolic differences in fatty acid handling between ADHD adolescents and normal controls. Finally, they provide evidence from other studies that it may be possible to improve behaviour patterns with omega-3 supplements, but the successful studies have used rather large doses (up to 16 g fish oil per day). Colter, AL, et al. Fatty acid status and behavioural symptoms of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder in adolescents: A case-control study. Nutrition Journal, Vol. 7, No. 1, February 14, 2008, p. 8 www.nutritionj.com/content/7/1/8 Here are some stats: One capsule of ProEFA is 1000 mg which is one gram of fish oils. We have had children on well over three grams of fish oils for years, and I have numerous times shared data that there are no cases of hemorrhage in even cardiac patients on mega dosages of PUFAs even when undergoing emergency open heart surgery. Fish oils are blood thinners and one should be careful if combining them with man made blood thinners (drugs -including aspirin) but again nature works different. It's again just like those that go a biomedical route and add supplements vs those that get those same nutrients from whole food sources. The chance of side effects and issues goes up the further one goes from whole food sources of supporting the internal pharmacy. Because I have just recently even shared information that there is not yet ONE documented case of irregular bleeding issues in our group of parents who in some cases using up to 9 grams of fish oils a day for years (my one son BTW is on 10 grams a day) I want to share the following article- please note the dosage of fish oils which may in research sometimes go by PUFA (polyunsaturated fatty acids) or EFA (essential fatty acid) or O3 O6 etc. Don't get me wrong -always check with your child's pediatrician -but as educated individuals -we should try not to just parrot and perpetuate myths which may prevent a dosage that is therapeutic for an individual. SO the reason we need research to get rid of the fear of what is healthy. Dietary Fatty Acids Essential for Mental Health By J. Bender, Pharm.D., M.A. | December 1, 1998 Insufficient intake of essential fatty acids (EFAs) may contribute to the pathogenesis of mental diseases, while their supplementation may relieve some symptoms, according to researchers who attended the National Institutes of Health (NIH) Workshop on Omega-3 Essential Fatty Acids and Psychiatric Disorders held in Bethesda, Md., in September 1998. * " This is the first time researchers in this field have been brought together, " said ph Hibbeln, M.D., National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), who organized the workshop. Other organizers were Jerry Cott, Ph.D., National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), Sahebarao Mahadik, Ph.D., Medical College of Georgia, Augusta, and the NIH Offices of Dietary Supplements and Research on Women's Health. Despite having long established that omega-3 fatty acids are highly concentrated in neurosynaptic membranes, Hibbeln said that researchers have only recently considered the physiologic effects of these brain-specific nutrients. These include the pathologic effects of their deficiency on neural and mental functioning. The EFAs, essential components of the diet that are not synthesized in the body, are ubiquitous in immune and anti-inflammatory response mechanisms and in oxidative cell injury defense. It is in these roles, Cott posited, that EFA deficiency might contribute to the well-known association of depression with coronary artery disease. Depression can follow from the emotional stress of myocardial injury and can exacerbate cardiac illness (Frasure- et al., 1995). However, Cott suggested that lowered EFA levels could predispose an individual to both the myocardial injury and the depression. " Epidemiological studies in various countries and in the United States in the last century suggest that decreased omega-3 fatty acid consumption correlates with increasing rates of depression, " Cott wrote in the initial proposal of the workshop. " There is evidence that deficiency of long-chain, omega-3 polyunsaturate may contribute to symptoms of schizophrenia, alcoholism, multiple sclerosis and postpartum depression. Adequate long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acid [LC-PUFA], particularly docosahexaenoic acid [DHA], may reduce the development of depression and schizophrenia just as omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids may reduce coronary artery disease. " Mahadik has examined the possibility of oxidative cell injury underlying the pathology of first-episode psychosis; noting such injury involves " predominately and selectively " the neuronal membrane phospholipids that are highly enriched in EFAs, particularly arachidonic acid [AA] and DHA, which are most sensitive to free radical-mediated peroxidation. " Since AA and DHA are critical for brain and behavioral development and for maintenance and neurotransmitter function throughout life, " Mahadik reasoned, " their levels may play critical roles in etiogenesis as well as pathogenesis of several neurological and major mental disorders, particularly bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, both of which seem to involve abnormal neurodevelopment. " Maes, M.D., Ph.D., of the Clinical Research Centre for Mental Healthcare, Antwerp, Belgium, was a presenter at this workshop. He and , M.D., described in a Biological Psychiatry editorial how EFA deficiency could lead to depression through effects on immune function and production of cytokines (Maes and , 1998). Maes and point to evidence that depression is accompanied by, and possibly follows from, an " acute phase " response in which there is an increased secretion of eicosanoids such as prostaglandins, and of proinflammatory cytokines. " Inflammatory cytokines or lipopolysaccharide given to animals or humans provoke an extensive set of symptoms and signs similar to, if not identical to, those found in major depression, " wrote Maes and . They added, " Cytokines may be common mediators of external stressors [that is, psychosocial stressors such as adverse life events] and internal stressors [that is, organic disorders] that are known to play a role in the etiology of depression. " One of the indicators of cytokine involvement in the pathogenesis of depression offered by Maes and is the suppression of cytokine release from human blood monocytes by antidepressants. This suggests, they wrote, " that these drugs have potent anti-inflammatory activities. " A more fundamental method of countering the proinflammatory cytokine effects proposed by Maes and others at this workshop, however, is to increase the omega-3 PUFA from sources such as fish oil in relation to the consumption of omega-6 PUFA from vegetable oils (Table). " The increased incidence rate of major depression since 1913 may be explained by a sharp increase in the rate of omega-6/omega-3 PUFAs in the diet, " wrote Maes and . has previously suggested that the increased omega-6/omega-3 PUFA ratio of the Western diet, replacing omega-3 fatty acids from fish, wild game and leaves with omega-6 fatty acids from seeds, has contributed to the increased incidence of cardiovascular and inflammatory disorders (, 1991). Clinical Effects of Diet Hibbeln reported investigating a possible correlation of EFA status with occurrence of suicide in 50 patients hospitalized for suicide attempts. Thirty of the patients had a primary diagnosis of depression, 20 had another primary diagnosis. Hibbeln found that for those not having a primary diagnosis of depression, a higher plasma concentration of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) predicted " strikingly " lower scores, indicating less suicidal risk across six different psychological rating scales. No similar correlation was found with other fatty acids, including DHA. Although this was not a prospective study of dietary intervention, Hibbeln concluded, " These data do suggest that some subgroups of suicidal patients may reduce their suicidal risk with the consumption of EPA. " In a previous investigation, Hibbeln and Norman Salem Jr., Ph.D., acting scientific director of NIAAA, had implicated the depletion of DHA as a probable etiologic factor for major depression (Hibbeln and Salem, 1995). Their study was the basis for Rhian , Ph.D. candidate, department of psychiatry, University of Sheffield, England, comparing measurements of red blood cell membrane (RBCM) fatty acid levels in 10 depressed patients and 14 matched healthy controls. reported finding that the patients with depression had significantly lower RBCM levels of both DHA and EPA. This correlated, he indicated, with a lower mean dietary intake of DHA and, generally, of other omega-3 EFAs and a higher omega-6 EFA intake than those patients without depression. acknowledged that the insidious onset of depression and the limitations in assessing diet make it difficult to establish a causal relationship. He concluded, however, " the role of diet and DHA/EPA supplementation in major depression warrants further investigation, as the findings raise the possibility that depressive symptoms may be alleviated by omega-3 EFA supplements. " Yao, Ph.D., Veterans Administration Medical Center, Pittsburgh, described recent evidence that altered membrane structure and function of red blood cells and platelets are " unequivocally " present in patients with schizophrenia. Specifically, according to Yao, there are decreased amounts of linoleic acid and AA in the RBCM of patients with schizophrenia during treatment with antipsychotic medication and in drug-free periods. Malcolm Peet, M.D., University of Sheffield, added that epidemiologic evidence suggests a correlation between national outcome figures for schizophrenia and the proportion of polyunsaturated to saturated fat in the national diet. Peet previously correlated dietary omega-3 fatty acid levels with the severity of schizophrenic symptoms, and now related two new studies of omega-3 EFA supplementation as an adjunct to antipsychotic medication. The dietary supplementation, Peet said, " led to significant clinical improvement in treatment-resistant patients. " In one of the two double-blind studies, Peet recounted, EPA-but not DHA-was found to be a useful adjunct to antipsychotic medication. Stoll, M.D., department of psychiatry, Harvard University, reported finding high-dose omega-3 fatty acid supplementation to be helpful in treating patients with unstable bipolar disorder. Stoll previously investigated the utility of choline to attenuate cell signaling through the phosphatidylcholine system (Stoll et al., 1996), which he hypothesized can become heightened in lithium-resistant patients after lithium inhibits the phosphatidylinositol second messenger system (Berridge et al., 1982). With evidence that omega-3 fatty acids can also inhibit hydrolysis of membrane phospholipids such as phosphatidylinositol, and may thus inhibit receptor-linked G-protein signal transduction, Stoll's group undertook a four-month controlled trial comparing high-dose omega-3 fatty acids (9 gms daily) with olive oil placebo in 30 patients with bipolar disorder. Stoll reported that in contrast to the recurrence of symptoms in seven of 15 patients (46.7%) receiving placebo, only one of the 15 patients (6.7%) receiving the omega-3 fatty acids supplementation had breakthrough mood symptoms. His data analysis indicated, further, that the patients receiving the omega-3 fatty acids had a significantly longer period of remission than those receiving placebo; and, by the end of the study period, demonstrated greater improvement on both the Clinical Global Impression and the Hamilton Depression Scales scores. " Omega-3 fatty acids represent a new class of membrane-active agents capable of altering signal transduction pathways, " Stoll concluded. " This study provides additional evidence of aberrant postsynaptic signal transduction mechanisms in the pathophysiology of bipolar disorder, and may herald the advent of a new class of rationally designed mood-stabilizing drugs. " Stoll's assessment was supported by evidence presented by Burton J. Litman, Ph.D., NIAAA, in the workshop section examining EFAs and cellular signal transduction. Litman described DHA-containing phospholipids potentiating receptor activation through G-protein signaling pathways. " Many neurotransmitter receptors implicated in the pathophysiology of affective disorders are members of the superfamily of G-protein-coupled receptors, " he explained; and so modulation of G-protein mediated signal transduction may underlie mechanisms of antidepressants as well as mood stabilizers. Additional EFA Investigations Other presentations at the workshop included investigations of effects of EFA supplementation on attention and cognition, and assessments of the importance of EFAs in early development. Anton Llorente, Ph.D., of Baylor University, administered 200 mg DHA or placebo daily to 140 women in late-stage pregnancy to ascertain the effect on postpartum depression. This population did not present sufficient depression to distinguish severity of symptoms between groups. However, Llorente did demonstrate with the Stroop Interference Test, a measure of alterations in formation processing, that the supplement improved cognitive capacity in postpartum women without depression. Two separate evaluations of EFA intervention for attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) failed to show therapeutic effect for this condition. Jay Burgess, Ph.D., of Purdue University, compared LC-PUFA supplementation to an olive oil placebo in 50 children with ADHD. He found an indication of benefit on some behavioral assessments, but not across all measures. Voigt, M.D., of the Mayo Clinic, provided DHA supplements (345 mg daily) or placebo to 63 children with ADHD who had been successfully treated with stimulant medication. After four months of supplementation, the stimulant dosage was halved. Although Voigt found the DHA to be no more useful than placebo in sustaining clinical effect with reduced dosage of stimulants, his group is now assessing whether there was benefit demonstrated in any subpopulation. Martha Neuringer, Ph.D., from the Oregon Health Sciences University, in Portland, Ore., and the Oregon Regional Primate Research Center, reported that in rhesus monkeys as well as human infants, diets low in omega-3 EFAs result in lowered DHA levels in the cerebral cortex and retina. Although it has been difficult to assess whether the lower omega-3 EFA status correlates with cognitive development, Neuringer indicated that it has been associated with changes in visual development, including abnormalities in retinal function, slower development of visual acuity and a longer visual fixation that relates to slower visual processing. Neuringer said that the effects of early omega-3 EFA status on other behavioral domains such as sleep patterns, temperament, emotional reactivity and response to stress remain largely unexplored. " There is a need for more comprehensive and long-term studies in both humans and animal models to understand the influence of dietary fatty acids on development as well as on later behavior, " she concluded. A note of caution was expressed by Nakamura, Ph.D., acting deputy director, NIMH, who presented an introduction to the workshop and later discussed the findings with Psychiatric Times. Nakamura said that while NIMH is interested in new ideas about causes and treatments of mental disorders, " the information being provided at this conference could not be interpreted as more than suggestive. " Nakamura indicated that NIMH is receptive to applications for further research into the role of EFAs in psychiatric disorders, but is not now setting aside funding specifically for this area. He emphasized that with only preliminary studies, psychiatric patients should be cautioned against interrupting treatment with proven medications; and, if they choose to take EFA supplements, should be advised that the quality of purity in these dietary supplements is not regulated in the same manner as medication products. References 1. Berridge MJ, Downes CP, Hanley MR (1982), Lithium amplifies agonist-dependent phosphatidylinositol responses in brain and salivary glands. Biochem J 206(3):587-595. 2. Frasure- N, Lesperance F, Talajic M (1995), Depression and 18-month prognosis after myocardial infarction. Circulation 91(4):999-1005. 3. Hibbeln JR, Salem N Jr (1995), Dietary polyunsaturated fats and depression: when cholesterol does not satisfy. Am J Clin Nutr 61(1):1-9. 4. Maes M, RS (1998), Fatty acids, cytokines and major depression. Biol Psychiatry 43(5):313-314. 5. RS (1991), The macrophage theory of depression. (Erratum appears in Med Hypotheses 36[2]:178.) Med Hypotheses 35(4):298-306. 6. Stoll AL, Sachs GS, Cohen BM et al. (1996), Choline in the treatment of rapid-cycling bipolar 7. disorder: clinical and neurochemical findings in lithium-treated patients. Biol Psychiatry 40(5):382-388. http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/49501 And in conclusion -from the ADHD study referenced above " but the successful studies have used rather large doses (up to 16 g fish oil per day). " PS -that would be about 16 capsules of fish oils a day. ===== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2010 Report Share Posted September 15, 2010 I appreciate that others have been on higher than 3 gram doses, but all the studies are under the direction of doctors. I was referring to the legal quanitifier that is put on fish oil and listed on the many sites, including the Mayo Clinic, that it is recommended going over 3 grams be done under the direction of your doctor as there have been instances of bleeding issues, not necessarily hemorraging. I didn't indicate 3 grams was a stopping point, just to go forward under doctor supervision. Futhermore, when major medical colleges and associations list it as follows, it can hardly be considered a myth. From the University of land Medical: Children (18 years and younger) There is no established dose for children. Omega-3 fatty acids are used in some infant formulas. Fish oil capsules should not be used in children except under the direction of a health care provider. Children should avoid eating fish that may be high in mercury, such as shark, swordfish, king mackerel, and tilefish. (See Precautions section.) Adults Do not take more than 3 grams daily of omega-3 fatty acids from capsules without the supervision of a health care provider, due to an increased risk of bleeding. For healthy adults with no history of heart disease: The American Heart Association recommends eating fish at least 2 times per week. For adults with coronary heart disease: The American Heart Association recommends an omega-3 fatty acid supplement (as fish oils), 1 gram daily of EPA and DHA. It may take 2 - 3 weeks for benefits of fish oil supplements to be seen. For adults with high cholesterol levels: The American Heart Association recommends an omega-3 fatty acid supplement (as fish oils), 2 - 4 grams daily of EPA and DHA. It may take 2 - 3 weeks for benefits of fish oil supplements to be seen. From: kiddietalk@... Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:57:54 +0000 Subject: [ ] Re: Overdose The EPA extra is too high and raises the EPA/O3 too much over the O6 for the majority. It's more expensive anyway- no need for the added expense. As many in this group learn the hard way -paying more in money, time, doesn't always mean better or more effective therapy. Just use the regular ProEPA for the child and you or your spouse can take the extra. Now here's more about dosage -and if anyone doubts anything I have here again I just posted another message and as I have to keep archiving the same info over and over and over -even I get bored sometimes and wanted to share new info...but be assured I have way more information to support that yes you can use more than 3 grams a fish oils a day -even with toddlers -this group has for years. As I say below I'm not saying don't share with your child's doctor -but we are an intelligent group -let's stop perpetuating myths! I know this is one of the myths from reputable sources too and shame on them -but the major issue isn't the fish oils -it is for those who are on medications with or without fish oils. Man made in nutrition doesn't work nearly as well as Mother Nature made!!! It probably took forever back then to get people to stop parroting that the Earth is flat! At one point all have to look at proof and separate fact from fiction -those using fish oils alone vs those using fish oils and blood thinners!! Also I just have one study below which was with 9 grams a day -most studies I have seen with fish oils are 6 grams a day or higher even in children. And what about this one for ADHD with 16 grams a day which many experts say is typical for Eskimos. " but the successful studies have used rather large doses (up to 16 g fish oil per day). " Note they don't say the ADHD people that had success had bleeding issues -one would think that was a slight side effect of the therapy that WOULD have been mentioned ...don't you think?!!! Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) - an omega-3 deficiency? GUELPH, ONTARIO, CANADA. The development of an assay for EPA and DHA in red blood cell fatty acids has made possible a number of interesting studies from sudden cardiac death to ADHD. In a just published study from the University of Guelph in Ontario, researchers examined the association between both dietary intake and red blood cell fatty acid status in a group of adolescents diagnosed with ADHD as compared to an age-matched control group. Both groups had similar anthropometric measurements such as weight, height, % fat mass, etc. Both groups consumed equivalent amounts of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids but the ADHD group consumed more energy and fat even though they had similar anthropometry. The ADHD children had significantly lower red blood cell levels of DHA and total omega-3 fatty acids, higher omega-6 fatty acids and a lower omega-3 to omega-6 ratio. In addition, this lower omega-3 status correlated with scores obtained with a standard behaviour measurement scale (the Conners' Parent Rating Scale or CPRS). The authors point out that these abnormal fatty acid profiles are also observed in younger ADHD children and again are distinctly different from controls of a similar age. Given that the dietary intakes in this study were similar, the results suggest that there are metabolic differences in fatty acid handling between ADHD adolescents and normal controls. Finally, they provide evidence from other studies that it may be possible to improve behaviour patterns with omega-3 supplements, but the successful studies have used rather large doses (up to 16 g fish oil per day). Colter, AL, et al. Fatty acid status and behavioural symptoms of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder in adolescents: A case-control study. Nutrition Journal, Vol. 7, No. 1, February 14, 2008, p. 8 www.nutritionj.com/content/7/1/8 Here are some stats: One capsule of ProEFA is 1000 mg which is one gram of fish oils. We have had children on well over three grams of fish oils for years, and I have numerous times shared data that there are no cases of hemorrhage in even cardiac patients on mega dosages of PUFAs even when undergoing emergency open heart surgery. Fish oils are blood thinners and one should be careful if combining them with man made blood thinners (drugs -including aspirin) but again nature works different. It's again just like those that go a biomedical route and add supplements vs those that get those same nutrients from whole food sources. The chance of side effects and issues goes up the further one goes from whole food sources of supporting the internal pharmacy. Because I have just recently even shared information that there is not yet ONE documented case of irregular bleeding issues in our group of parents who in some cases using up to 9 grams of fish oils a day for years (my one son BTW is on 10 grams a day) I want to share the following article- please note the dosage of fish oils which may in research sometimes go by PUFA (polyunsaturated fatty acids) or EFA (essential fatty acid) or O3 O6 etc. Don't get me wrong -always check with your child's pediatrician -but as educated individuals -we should try not to just parrot and perpetuate myths which may prevent a dosage that is therapeutic for an individual. SO the reason we need research to get rid of the fear of what is healthy. Dietary Fatty Acids Essential for Mental Health By J. Bender, Pharm.D., M.A. | December 1, 1998 Insufficient intake of essential fatty acids (EFAs) may contribute to the pathogenesis of mental diseases, while their supplementation may relieve some symptoms, according to researchers who attended the National Institutes of Health (NIH) Workshop on Omega-3 Essential Fatty Acids and Psychiatric Disorders held in Bethesda, Md., in September 1998. * " This is the first time researchers in this field have been brought together, " said ph Hibbeln, M.D., National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), who organized the workshop. Other organizers were Jerry Cott, Ph.D., National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), Sahebarao Mahadik, Ph.D., Medical College of Georgia, Augusta, and the NIH Offices of Dietary Supplements and Research on Women's Health. Despite having long established that omega-3 fatty acids are highly concentrated in neurosynaptic membranes, Hibbeln said that researchers have only recently considered the physiologic effects of these brain-specific nutrients. These include the pathologic effects of their deficiency on neural and mental functioning. The EFAs, essential components of the diet that are not synthesized in the body, are ubiquitous in immune and anti-inflammatory response mechanisms and in oxidative cell injury defense. It is in these roles, Cott posited, that EFA deficiency might contribute to the well-known association of depression with coronary artery disease. Depression can follow from the emotional stress of myocardial injury and can exacerbate cardiac illness (Frasure- et al., 1995). However, Cott suggested that lowered EFA levels could predispose an individual to both the myocardial injury and the depression. " Epidemiological studies in various countries and in the United States in the last century suggest that decreased omega-3 fatty acid consumption correlates with increasing rates of depression, " Cott wrote in the initial proposal of the workshop. " There is evidence that deficiency of long-chain, omega-3 polyunsaturate may contribute to symptoms of schizophrenia, alcoholism, multiple sclerosis and postpartum depression. Adequate long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acid [LC-PUFA], particularly docosahexaenoic acid [DHA], may reduce the development of depression and schizophrenia just as omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids may reduce coronary artery disease. " Mahadik has examined the possibility of oxidative cell injury underlying the pathology of first-episode psychosis; noting such injury involves " predominately and selectively " the neuronal membrane phospholipids that are highly enriched in EFAs, particularly arachidonic acid [AA] and DHA, which are most sensitive to free radical-mediated peroxidation. " Since AA and DHA are critical for brain and behavioral development and for maintenance and neurotransmitter function throughout life, " Mahadik reasoned, " their levels may play critical roles in etiogenesis as well as pathogenesis of several neurological and major mental disorders, particularly bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, both of which seem to involve abnormal neurodevelopment. " Maes, M.D., Ph.D., of the Clinical Research Centre for Mental Healthcare, Antwerp, Belgium, was a presenter at this workshop. He and , M.D., described in a Biological Psychiatry editorial how EFA deficiency could lead to depression through effects on immune function and production of cytokines (Maes and , 1998). Maes and point to evidence that depression is accompanied by, and possibly follows from, an " acute phase " response in which there is an increased secretion of eicosanoids such as prostaglandins, and of proinflammatory cytokines. " Inflammatory cytokines or lipopolysaccharide given to animals or humans provoke an extensive set of symptoms and signs similar to, if not identical to, those found in major depression, " wrote Maes and . They added, " Cytokines may be common mediators of external stressors [that is, psychosocial stressors such as adverse life events] and internal stressors [that is, organic disorders] that are known to play a role in the etiology of depression. " One of the indicators of cytokine involvement in the pathogenesis of depression offered by Maes and is the suppression of cytokine release from human blood monocytes by antidepressants. This suggests, they wrote, " that these drugs have potent anti-inflammatory activities. " A more fundamental method of countering the proinflammatory cytokine effects proposed by Maes and others at this workshop, however, is to increase the omega-3 PUFA from sources such as fish oil in relation to the consumption of omega-6 PUFA from vegetable oils (Table). " The increased incidence rate of major depression since 1913 may be explained by a sharp increase in the rate of omega-6/omega-3 PUFAs in the diet, " wrote Maes and . has previously suggested that the increased omega-6/omega-3 PUFA ratio of the Western diet, replacing omega-3 fatty acids from fish, wild game and leaves with omega-6 fatty acids from seeds, has contributed to the increased incidence of cardiovascular and inflammatory disorders (, 1991). Clinical Effects of Diet Hibbeln reported investigating a possible correlation of EFA status with occurrence of suicide in 50 patients hospitalized for suicide attempts. Thirty of the patients had a primary diagnosis of depression, 20 had another primary diagnosis. Hibbeln found that for those not having a primary diagnosis of depression, a higher plasma concentration of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) predicted " strikingly " lower scores, indicating less suicidal risk across six different psychological rating scales. No similar correlation was found with other fatty acids, including DHA. Although this was not a prospective study of dietary intervention, Hibbeln concluded, " These data do suggest that some subgroups of suicidal patients may reduce their suicidal risk with the consumption of EPA. " In a previous investigation, Hibbeln and Norman Salem Jr., Ph.D., acting scientific director of NIAAA, had implicated the depletion of DHA as a probable etiologic factor for major depression (Hibbeln and Salem, 1995). Their study was the basis for Rhian , Ph.D. candidate, department of psychiatry, University of Sheffield, England, comparing measurements of red blood cell membrane (RBCM) fatty acid levels in 10 depressed patients and 14 matched healthy controls. reported finding that the patients with depression had significantly lower RBCM levels of both DHA and EPA. This correlated, he indicated, with a lower mean dietary intake of DHA and, generally, of other omega-3 EFAs and a higher omega-6 EFA intake than those patients without depression. acknowledged that the insidious onset of depression and the limitations in assessing diet make it difficult to establish a causal relationship. He concluded, however, " the role of diet and DHA/EPA supplementation in major depression warrants further investigation, as the findings raise the possibility that depressive symptoms may be alleviated by omega-3 EFA supplements. " Yao, Ph.D., Veterans Administration Medical Center, Pittsburgh, described recent evidence that altered membrane structure and function of red blood cells and platelets are " unequivocally " present in patients with schizophrenia. Specifically, according to Yao, there are decreased amounts of linoleic acid and AA in the RBCM of patients with schizophrenia during treatment with antipsychotic medication and in drug-free periods. Malcolm Peet, M.D., University of Sheffield, added that epidemiologic evidence suggests a correlation between national outcome figures for schizophrenia and the proportion of polyunsaturated to saturated fat in the national diet. Peet previously correlated dietary omega-3 fatty acid levels with the severity of schizophrenic symptoms, and now related two new studies of omega-3 EFA supplementation as an adjunct to antipsychotic medication. The dietary supplementation, Peet said, " led to significant clinical improvement in treatment-resistant patients. " In one of the two double-blind studies, Peet recounted, EPA-but not DHA-was found to be a useful adjunct to antipsychotic medication. Stoll, M.D., department of psychiatry, Harvard University, reported finding high-dose omega-3 fatty acid supplementation to be helpful in treating patients with unstable bipolar disorder. Stoll previously investigated the utility of choline to attenuate cell signaling through the phosphatidylcholine system (Stoll et al., 1996), which he hypothesized can become heightened in lithium-resistant patients after lithium inhibits the phosphatidylinositol second messenger system (Berridge et al., 1982). With evidence that omega-3 fatty acids can also inhibit hydrolysis of membrane phospholipids such as phosphatidylinositol, and may thus inhibit receptor-linked G-protein signal transduction, Stoll's group undertook a four-month controlled trial comparing high-dose omega-3 fatty acids (9 gms daily) with olive oil placebo in 30 patients with bipolar disorder. Stoll reported that in contrast to the recurrence of symptoms in seven of 15 patients (46.7%) receiving placebo, only one of the 15 patients (6.7%) receiving the omega-3 fatty acids supplementation had breakthrough mood symptoms. His data analysis indicated, further, that the patients receiving the omega-3 fatty acids had a significantly longer period of remission than those receiving placebo; and, by the end of the study period, demonstrated greater improvement on both the Clinical Global Impression and the Hamilton Depression Scales scores. " Omega-3 fatty acids represent a new class of membrane-active agents capable of altering signal transduction pathways, " Stoll concluded. " This study provides additional evidence of aberrant postsynaptic signal transduction mechanisms in the pathophysiology of bipolar disorder, and may herald the advent of a new class of rationally designed mood-stabilizing drugs. " Stoll's assessment was supported by evidence presented by Burton J. Litman, Ph.D., NIAAA, in the workshop section examining EFAs and cellular signal transduction. Litman described DHA-containing phospholipids potentiating receptor activation through G-protein signaling pathways. " Many neurotransmitter receptors implicated in the pathophysiology of affective disorders are members of the superfamily of G-protein-coupled receptors, " he explained; and so modulation of G-protein mediated signal transduction may underlie mechanisms of antidepressants as well as mood stabilizers. Additional EFA Investigations Other presentations at the workshop included investigations of effects of EFA supplementation on attention and cognition, and assessments of the importance of EFAs in early development. Anton Llorente, Ph.D., of Baylor University, administered 200 mg DHA or placebo daily to 140 women in late-stage pregnancy to ascertain the effect on postpartum depression. This population did not present sufficient depression to distinguish severity of symptoms between groups. However, Llorente did demonstrate with the Stroop Interference Test, a measure of alterations in formation processing, that the supplement improved cognitive capacity in postpartum women without depression. Two separate evaluations of EFA intervention for attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) failed to show therapeutic effect for this condition. Jay Burgess, Ph.D., of Purdue University, compared LC-PUFA supplementation to an olive oil placebo in 50 children with ADHD. He found an indication of benefit on some behavioral assessments, but not across all measures. Voigt, M.D., of the Mayo Clinic, provided DHA supplements (345 mg daily) or placebo to 63 children with ADHD who had been successfully treated with stimulant medication. After four months of supplementation, the stimulant dosage was halved. Although Voigt found the DHA to be no more useful than placebo in sustaining clinical effect with reduced dosage of stimulants, his group is now assessing whether there was benefit demonstrated in any subpopulation. Martha Neuringer, Ph.D., from the Oregon Health Sciences University, in Portland, Ore., and the Oregon Regional Primate Research Center, reported that in rhesus monkeys as well as human infants, diets low in omega-3 EFAs result in lowered DHA levels in the cerebral cortex and retina. Although it has been difficult to assess whether the lower omega-3 EFA status correlates with cognitive development, Neuringer indicated that it has been associated with changes in visual development, including abnormalities in retinal function, slower development of visual acuity and a longer visual fixation that relates to slower visual processing. Neuringer said that the effects of early omega-3 EFA status on other behavioral domains such as sleep patterns, temperament, emotional reactivity and response to stress remain largely unexplored. " There is a need for more comprehensive and long-term studies in both humans and animal models to understand the influence of dietary fatty acids on development as well as on later behavior, " she concluded. A note of caution was expressed by Nakamura, Ph.D., acting deputy director, NIMH, who presented an introduction to the workshop and later discussed the findings with Psychiatric Times. Nakamura said that while NIMH is interested in new ideas about causes and treatments of mental disorders, " the information being provided at this conference could not be interpreted as more than suggestive. " Nakamura indicated that NIMH is receptive to applications for further research into the role of EFAs in psychiatric disorders, but is not now setting aside funding specifically for this area. He emphasized that with only preliminary studies, psychiatric patients should be cautioned against interrupting treatment with proven medications; and, if they choose to take EFA supplements, should be advised that the quality of purity in these dietary supplements is not regulated in the same manner as medication products. References 1. Berridge MJ, Downes CP, Hanley MR (1982), Lithium amplifies agonist-dependent phosphatidylinositol responses in brain and salivary glands. Biochem J 206(3):587-595. 2. Frasure- N, Lesperance F, Talajic M (1995), Depression and 18-month prognosis after myocardial infarction. Circulation 91(4):999-1005. 3. Hibbeln JR, Salem N Jr (1995), Dietary polyunsaturated fats and depression: when cholesterol does not satisfy. Am J Clin Nutr 61(1):1-9. 4. Maes M, RS (1998), Fatty acids, cytokines and major depression. Biol Psychiatry 43(5):313-314. 5. RS (1991), The macrophage theory of depression. (Erratum appears in Med Hypotheses 36[2]:178.) Med Hypotheses 35(4):298-306. 6. Stoll AL, Sachs GS, Cohen BM et al. (1996), Choline in the treatment of rapid-cycling bipolar 7. disorder: clinical and neurochemical findings in lithium-treated patients. Biol Psychiatry 40(5):382-388. http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/49501 And in conclusion -from the ADHD study referenced above " but the successful studies have used rather large doses (up to 16 g fish oil per day). " PS -that would be about 16 capsules of fish oils a day. ===== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2010 Report Share Posted September 15, 2010 I've been dealing with this for years and am aware of what is on websites. The frustration from some of the experts in the areas of PUFAs are that while trying to keep the public safe, there are numerous loopholes which lead to myths. For example -a fish oil brand can only put a nominal dosage on the bottle (ie one or two capsules a day) UNLESS that exact brand and formula has been used in clinical studies- for example Efalex which was the first EFA formula I used had and I believe still has on the bottle to " use two to three capsules twice a day " (at least for the first couple of months) OK I'm not good at math but even I know that's a range of two to six capsules or grams a day. And why just look at US websites -as the WWW means the whole world- and the UK who is ahead of us on the subject -here's an article and look at some of the dosages listed here! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-389362/Which-fish-oil-brands-best-chil\ dren.html (Dr. was one of the doctors that presented at our conference -she led the Durham trial and is a consultant for the formula EyeQ which is similar to ProEFA and a very good formula for our UK parents) And...back to just going by what is on a website based on loophole information....if one wants to follow the same illogical way of thinking try to find one fish oil out there marketed to newborn babies...in fact check most bottles and they will say " not for children under the age of five " or something like that...that is...um unless you have it in the infant formula or baby food which has been clinically validated and approved. And pregnant women are advised against eating certain types of fish due to mercury...but mercury binds to the protein which is the muscle of the fish and from what I read all research has found it impossible for the mercury to be in the oils...anyone out there like from the Mayo Clinic or anyone else you quoted recommending fish oil to pregnant women since the EFAs are so critical to both the baby's and mother's health?...outside of say prescription fish oil which of course they are allowed to recommend as there are clinical studies...you just pay a wee bit more. If I were pregnant I'd use a high quality fish oil -and Nordic for sure is that. Maybe you are a doctor and have to say things for legal reasons, but I am friends with many and know that there is much to say about thinking outside of the box -and personally search out those medical professionals as well. If this group has used an average of 3 to 9 grams a day of fish oils in children from ages of 2 and up for years at a time with NOT ONE case ever that I have read here or anywhere of bleeding issues -someone just needs to document what's going on...and trust me I'm working on it as quickly as I can and also trust me the person I have that will be assisting us with the research is above any of the sources you quoted. Ironically we did not expect our fundraiser to also be therapeutic http://pursuitofresearch.org/pursuit.html but clearly we are on the right path with whole food therapy. And pssssst...speaking of what is approved by the FDA http://newsfeed.time.com/2010/09/08/would-you-eat-genetically-altered-meat/ And may want to read what one out of the box doctor I respect has to say about this https://wiki.brown.edu/confluence/download/attachments/31602/whatisgefood.pdf?ve\ rsion=1 & modificationDate=1186367598000 But if it's approved by the FDA and sold at a local store...most will trust it's healthy if it's a fruit or veggie or meat. hmmmm. May want to go back to this again https://wiki.brown.edu/confluence/download/attachments/31602/whatisgefood.pdf?ve\ rsion=1 & modificationDate=1186367598000 Just because it's NOT on a website doesn't make it false!!!! So again yes talk to your child's doctor -your doctor -but seek second opinions, learn more and think for yourself (and not talking about you -just in general) it's our bodies and our children's health that is at stake...and clearly the US alone does not question if a food is from a supermarket or a fast food wrapper -even if there are recalls and deaths and deep fried rats found in the foods...and they don't question what most doctor's prescribe and that goes for traditional or biomedical...and they don't measure out how much pizza oil one consumes from 2 slices of pizza (it's at least a few paper towels worth I know because I blot it off)....oh but that " big bad fish oil " which is clinically proven to benefit just about every aspect of human health and is essential with means we need it in our diet and what we do get is compromised by trans and saturated fats we better watch out for that! OK -that makes sense to the majority I'm sure -that's why people like me will work to prove this craziness wrong! Again shame on those that just perpetuate myths which don't stand up to logic -and again this is not an attack on you -I appreciate there are reputable sources that claim what you are saying -I just know it's complete bull you know what. ===== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2010 Report Share Posted September 15, 2010 My grandmother told me that when she was growing up she had to have a tablespoon of cod liver oil every day and I heard that was normal. I had to look this up but think that is equal to 12 grams of cod liver oil a day they gave kids then. I read here a teaspoon of ProEFA is about 4 capsules and there are 3 teaspoons in 1 tablespoon. I do give my son 2 ProEFA and 1 ProEPA daily and would raise it but my son's pediatrician approved NV a few months ago and will be trying that too. Kate > > I've been dealing with this for years and am aware of what is on websites. The frustration from some of the experts in the areas of PUFAs are that while trying to keep the public safe, there are numerous loopholes which lead to myths. > > For example -a fish oil brand can only put a nominal dosage on the bottle (ie one or two capsules a day) UNLESS that exact brand and formula has been used in clinical studies- for example Efalex which was the first EFA formula I used had and I believe still has on the bottle to " use two to three capsules twice a day " (at least for the first couple of months) > > OK I'm not good at math but even I know that's a range of two to six capsules or grams a day. > > And why just look at US websites -as the WWW means the whole world- and the UK who is ahead of us on the subject -here's an article and look at some of the dosages listed here! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-389362/Which-fish-oil-brands-best-chil\ dren.html (Dr. was one of the doctors that presented at our conference -she led the Durham trial and is a consultant for the formula EyeQ which is similar to ProEFA and a very good formula for our UK parents) > > And...back to just going by what is on a website based on loophole information....if one wants to follow the same illogical way of thinking try to find one fish oil out there marketed to newborn babies...in fact check most bottles and they will say " not for children under the age of five " or something like that...that is...um unless you have it in the infant formula or baby food which has been clinically validated and approved. And pregnant women are advised against eating certain types of fish due to mercury...but mercury binds to the protein which is the muscle of the fish and from what I read all research has found it impossible for the mercury to be in the oils...anyone out there like from the Mayo Clinic or anyone else you quoted recommending fish oil to pregnant women since the EFAs are so critical to both the baby's and mother's health?...outside of say prescription fish oil which of course they are allowed to recommend as there are clinical studies...you just pay a wee bit more. If I were pregnant I'd use a high quality fish oil -and Nordic for sure is that. > > Maybe you are a doctor and have to say things for legal reasons, but I am friends with many and know that there is much to say about thinking outside of the box -and personally search out those medical professionals as well. If this group has used an average of 3 to 9 grams a day of fish oils in children from ages of 2 and up for years at a time with NOT ONE case ever that I have read here or anywhere of bleeding issues -someone just needs to document what's going on...and trust me I'm working on it as quickly as I can and also trust me the person I have that will be assisting us with the research is above any of the sources you quoted. Ironically we did not expect our fundraiser to also be therapeutic http://pursuitofresearch.org/pursuit.html but clearly we are on the right path with whole food therapy. > > And pssssst...speaking of what is approved by the FDA http://newsfeed.time.com/2010/09/08/would-you-eat-genetically-altered-meat/ > > And may want to read what one out of the box doctor I respect has to say about this https://wiki.brown.edu/confluence/download/attachments/31602/whatisgefood.pdf?ve\ rsion=1 & modificationDate=1186367598000 > > But if it's approved by the FDA and sold at a local store...most will trust it's healthy if it's a fruit or veggie or meat. hmmmm. May want to go back to this again https://wiki.brown.edu/confluence/download/attachments/31602/whatisgefood.pdf?ve\ rsion=1 & modificationDate=1186367598000 Just because it's NOT on a website doesn't make it false!!!! > > So again yes talk to your child's doctor -your doctor -but seek second opinions, learn more and think for yourself (and not talking about you -just in general) it's our bodies and our children's health that is at stake...and clearly the US alone does not question if a food is from a supermarket or a fast food wrapper -even if there are recalls and deaths and deep fried rats found in the foods...and they don't question what most doctor's prescribe and that goes for traditional or biomedical...and they don't measure out how much pizza oil one consumes from 2 slices of pizza (it's at least a few paper towels worth I know because I blot it off)....oh but that " big bad fish oil " which is clinically proven to benefit just about every aspect of human health and is essential with means we need it in our diet and what we do get is compromised by trans and saturated fats we better watch out for that! OK -that makes sense to the majority I'm sure -that's why people like me will work to prove this craziness wrong! Again shame on those that just perpetuate myths which don't stand up to logic -and again this is not an attack on you -I appreciate there are reputable sources that claim what you are saying -I just know it's complete bull you know what. > > ===== > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2010 Report Share Posted September 16, 2010 Hi! Thank you very much for all your responses. For the blood thinners ... we are on Oil of Oregano (16-22 drops) daily for controlling the yeast, is that an issue to be concerned? Appreciated your inputs! Sara On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 9:57 PM, kiddietalk <kiddietalk@...> wrote: > > > The EPA extra is too high and raises the EPA/O3 too much over the O6 for > the majority. It's more expensive anyway- no need for the added expense. As > many in this group learn the hard way -paying more in money, time, doesn't > always mean better or more effective therapy. Just use the regular ProEPA > for the child and you or your spouse can take the extra. > > Now here's more about dosage -and if anyone doubts anything I have here > again I just posted another message and as I have to keep archiving the same > info over and over and over -even I get bored sometimes and wanted to share > new info...but be assured I have way more information to support that yes > you can use more than 3 grams a fish oils a day -even with toddlers -this > group has for years. As I say below I'm not saying don't share with your > child's doctor -but we are an intelligent group -let's stop perpetuating > myths! > > I know this is one of the myths from reputable sources too and shame on > them -but the major issue isn't the fish oils -it is for those who are on > medications with or without fish oils. Man made in nutrition doesn't work > nearly as well as Mother Nature made!!! > > It probably took forever back then to get people to stop parroting that the > Earth is flat! At one point all have to look at proof and separate fact from > fiction -those using fish oils alone vs those using fish oils and blood > thinners!! > > Also I just have one study below which was with 9 grams a day -most studies > I have seen with fish oils are 6 grams a day or higher even in children. And > what about this one for ADHD with 16 grams a day which many experts say is > typical for Eskimos. " but the successful studies have used rather large > doses (up to 16 g fish oil per day). " Note they don't say the ADHD people > that had success had bleeding issues -one would think that was a slight side > effect of the therapy that WOULD have been mentioned ...don't you think?!!! > > Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) - an omega-3 deficiency? > GUELPH, ONTARIO, CANADA. The development of an assay for EPA and DHA in red > blood cell fatty acids has made possible a number of interesting studies > from sudden cardiac death to ADHD. In a just published study from the > University of Guelph in Ontario, researchers examined the association > between both dietary intake and red blood cell fatty acid status in a group > of adolescents diagnosed with ADHD as compared to an age-matched control > group. Both groups had similar anthropometric measurements such as weight, > height, % fat mass, etc. Both groups consumed equivalent amounts of omega-3 > and omega-6 fatty acids but the ADHD group consumed more energy and fat even > though they had similar anthropometry. The ADHD children had significantly > lower red blood cell levels of DHA and total omega-3 fatty acids, higher > omega-6 fatty acids and a lower omega-3 to omega-6 ratio. In addition, this > lower omega-3 status correlated with scores obtained with a standard > behaviour measurement scale (the Conners' Parent Rating Scale or CPRS). The > authors point out that these abnormal fatty acid profiles are also observed > in younger ADHD children and again are distinctly different from controls of > a similar age. Given that the dietary intakes in this study were similar, > the results suggest that there are metabolic differences in fatty acid > handling between ADHD adolescents and normal controls. Finally, they provide > evidence from other studies that it may be possible to improve behaviour > patterns with omega-3 supplements, but the successful studies have used > rather large doses (up to 16 g fish oil per day). > Colter, AL, et al. Fatty acid status and behavioural symptoms of Attention > Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder in adolescents: A case-control study. > Nutrition Journal, Vol. 7, No. 1, February 14, 2008, p. 8 > www.nutritionj.com/content/7/1/8 > > Here are some stats: > > One capsule of ProEFA is 1000 mg which is one gram of fish oils. We have > had children on well over three grams of fish oils for years, and I have > numerous times shared data that there are no cases of hemorrhage in even > cardiac patients on mega dosages of PUFAs even when undergoing emergency > open heart surgery. Fish oils are blood thinners and one should be careful > if combining them with man made blood thinners (drugs -including aspirin) > but again nature works different. It's again just like those that go a > biomedical route and add supplements vs those that get those same nutrients > from whole food sources. The chance of side effects and issues goes up the > further one goes from whole food sources of supporting the internal > pharmacy. > > Because I have just recently even shared information that there is not yet > ONE documented case of irregular bleeding issues in our group of parents who > in some cases using up to 9 grams of fish oils a day for years (my one son > BTW is on 10 grams a day) I want to share the following article- please note > the dosage of fish oils which may in research sometimes go by PUFA > (polyunsaturated fatty acids) or EFA (essential fatty acid) or O3 O6 etc. > > Don't get me wrong -always check with your child's pediatrician -but as > educated individuals -we should try not to just parrot and perpetuate myths > which may prevent a dosage that is therapeutic for an individual. SO the > reason we need research to get rid of the fear of what is healthy. > > Dietary Fatty Acids Essential for Mental Health > By J. Bender, Pharm.D., M.A. | December 1, 1998 > > Insufficient intake of essential fatty acids (EFAs) may contribute to the > pathogenesis of mental diseases, while their supplementation may relieve > some symptoms, according to researchers who attended the National Institutes > of Health (NIH) Workshop on Omega-3 Essential Fatty Acids and Psychiatric > Disorders held in Bethesda, Md., in September 1998. > > * > > " This is the first time researchers in this field have been brought > together, " said ph Hibbeln, M.D., National Institute on Alcohol Abuse > and Alcoholism (NIAAA), who organized the workshop. Other organizers were > Jerry Cott, Ph.D., National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), Sahebarao > Mahadik, Ph.D., Medical College of Georgia, Augusta, and the NIH Offices of > Dietary Supplements and Research on Women's Health. > > Despite having long established that omega-3 fatty acids are highly > concentrated in neurosynaptic membranes, Hibbeln said that researchers have > only recently considered the physiologic effects of these brain-specific > nutrients. These include the pathologic effects of their deficiency on > neural and mental functioning. > > The EFAs, essential components of the diet that are not synthesized in the > body, are ubiquitous in immune and anti-inflammatory response mechanisms and > in oxidative cell injury defense. It is in these roles, Cott posited, that > EFA deficiency might contribute to the well-known association of depression > with coronary artery disease. Depression can follow from the emotional > stress of myocardial injury and can exacerbate cardiac illness > (Frasure- et al., 1995). However, Cott suggested that lowered EFA > levels could predispose an individual to both the myocardial injury and the > depression. > > " Epidemiological studies in various countries and in the United States in > the last century suggest that decreased omega-3 fatty acid consumption > correlates with increasing rates of depression, " Cott wrote in the initial > proposal of the workshop. " There is evidence that deficiency of long-chain, > omega-3 polyunsaturate may contribute to symptoms of schizophrenia, > alcoholism, multiple sclerosis and postpartum depression. Adequate > long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acid [LC-PUFA], particularly > docosahexaenoic acid [DHA], may reduce the development of depression and > schizophrenia just as omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids may reduce > coronary artery disease. " > > Mahadik has examined the possibility of oxidative cell injury underlying > the pathology of first-episode psychosis; noting such injury involves > " predominately and selectively " the neuronal membrane phospholipids that are > highly enriched in EFAs, particularly arachidonic acid [AA] and DHA, which > are most sensitive to free radical-mediated peroxidation. > > " Since AA and DHA are critical for brain and behavioral development and for > maintenance and neurotransmitter function throughout life, " Mahadik > reasoned, " their levels may play critical roles in etiogenesis as well as > pathogenesis of several neurological and major mental disorders, > particularly bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, both of which seem to > involve abnormal neurodevelopment. " > > Maes, M.D., Ph.D., of the Clinical Research Centre for Mental > Healthcare, Antwerp, Belgium, was a presenter at this workshop. He and > , M.D., described in a Biological Psychiatry editorial how EFA > deficiency could lead to depression through effects on immune function and > production of cytokines (Maes and , 1998). > > Maes and point to evidence that depression is accompanied by, and > possibly follows from, an " acute phase " response in which there is an > increased secretion of eicosanoids such as prostaglandins, and of > proinflammatory cytokines. > > " Inflammatory cytokines or lipopolysaccharide given to animals or humans > provoke an extensive set of symptoms and signs similar to, if not identical > to, those found in major depression, " wrote Maes and . They added, > " Cytokines may be common mediators of external stressors [that is, > psychosocial stressors such as adverse life events] and internal stressors > [that is, organic disorders] that are known to play a role in the etiology > of depression. " > > One of the indicators of cytokine involvement in the pathogenesis of > depression offered by Maes and is the suppression of cytokine release > from human blood monocytes by antidepressants. This suggests, they wrote, > " that these drugs have potent anti-inflammatory activities. " > > A more fundamental method of countering the proinflammatory cytokine > effects proposed by Maes and others at this workshop, however, is to > increase the omega-3 PUFA from sources such as fish oil in relation to the > consumption of omega-6 PUFA from vegetable oils (Table). " The increased > incidence rate of major depression since 1913 may be explained by a sharp > increase in the rate of omega-6/omega-3 PUFAs in the diet, " wrote Maes and > . > > has previously suggested that the increased omega-6/omega-3 PUFA > ratio of the Western diet, replacing omega-3 fatty acids from fish, wild > game and leaves with omega-6 fatty acids from seeds, has contributed to the > increased incidence of cardiovascular and inflammatory disorders (, > 1991). > Clinical Effects of Diet > > Hibbeln reported investigating a possible correlation of EFA status with > occurrence of suicide in 50 patients hospitalized for suicide attempts. > Thirty of the patients had a primary diagnosis of depression, 20 had another > primary diagnosis. Hibbeln found that for those not having a primary > diagnosis of depression, a higher plasma concentration of eicosapentaenoic > acid (EPA) predicted " strikingly " lower scores, indicating less suicidal > risk across six different psychological rating scales. No similar > correlation was found with other fatty acids, including DHA. Although this > was not a prospective study of dietary intervention, Hibbeln concluded, > " These data do suggest that some subgroups of suicidal patients may reduce > their suicidal risk with the consumption of EPA. " > > In a previous investigation, Hibbeln and Norman Salem Jr., Ph.D., acting > scientific director of NIAAA, had implicated the depletion of DHA as a > probable etiologic factor for major depression (Hibbeln and Salem, 1995). > Their study was the basis for Rhian , Ph.D. candidate, department of > psychiatry, University of Sheffield, England, comparing measurements of red > blood cell membrane (RBCM) fatty acid levels in 10 depressed patients and 14 > matched healthy controls. reported finding that the patients with > depression had significantly lower RBCM levels of both DHA and EPA. This > correlated, he indicated, with a lower mean dietary intake of DHA and, > generally, of other omega-3 EFAs and a higher omega-6 EFA intake than those > patients without depression. > > acknowledged that the insidious onset of depression and the > limitations in assessing diet make it difficult to establish a causal > relationship. He concluded, however, " the role of diet and DHA/EPA > supplementation in major depression warrants further investigation, as the > findings raise the possibility that depressive symptoms may be alleviated by > omega-3 EFA supplements. " > > Yao, Ph.D., Veterans Administration Medical Center, Pittsburgh, > described recent evidence that altered membrane structure and function of > red blood cells and platelets are " unequivocally " present in patients with > schizophrenia. Specifically, according to Yao, there are decreased amounts > of linoleic acid and AA in the RBCM of patients with schizophrenia during > treatment with antipsychotic medication and in drug-free periods. > > Malcolm Peet, M.D., University of Sheffield, added that epidemiologic > evidence suggests a correlation between national outcome figures for > schizophrenia and the proportion of polyunsaturated to saturated fat in the > national diet. Peet previously correlated dietary omega-3 fatty acid levels > with the severity of schizophrenic symptoms, and now related two new studies > of omega-3 EFA supplementation as an adjunct to antipsychotic medication. > The dietary supplementation, Peet said, " led to significant clinical > improvement in treatment-resistant patients. " In one of the two double-blind > studies, Peet recounted, EPA-but not DHA-was found to be a useful adjunct to > antipsychotic medication. > > Stoll, M.D., department of psychiatry, Harvard University, reported > finding high-dose omega-3 fatty acid supplementation to be helpful in > treating patients with unstable bipolar disorder. Stoll previously > investigated the utility of choline to attenuate cell signaling through the > phosphatidylcholine system (Stoll et al., 1996), which he hypothesized can > become heightened in lithium-resistant patients after lithium inhibits the > phosphatidylinositol second messenger system (Berridge et al., 1982). > > With evidence that omega-3 fatty acids can also inhibit hydrolysis of > membrane phospholipids such as phosphatidylinositol, and may thus inhibit > receptor-linked G-protein signal transduction, Stoll's group undertook a > four-month controlled trial comparing high-dose omega-3 fatty acids (9 gms > daily) with olive oil placebo in 30 patients with bipolar disorder. > > Stoll reported that in contrast to the recurrence of symptoms in seven of > 15 patients (46.7%) receiving placebo, only one of the 15 patients (6.7%) > receiving the omega-3 fatty acids supplementation had breakthrough mood > symptoms. His data analysis indicated, further, that the patients receiving > the omega-3 fatty acids had a significantly longer period of remission than > those receiving placebo; and, by the end of the study period, demonstrated > greater improvement on both the Clinical Global Impression and the Hamilton > Depression Scales scores. > > " Omega-3 fatty acids represent a new class of membrane-active agents > capable of altering signal transduction pathways, " Stoll concluded. " This > study provides additional evidence of aberrant postsynaptic signal > transduction mechanisms in the pathophysiology of bipolar disorder, and may > herald the advent of a new class of rationally designed mood-stabilizing > drugs. " > > Stoll's assessment was supported by evidence presented by Burton J. Litman, > Ph.D., NIAAA, in the workshop section examining EFAs and cellular signal > transduction. Litman described DHA-containing phospholipids potentiating > receptor activation through G-protein signaling pathways. " Many > neurotransmitter receptors implicated in the pathophysiology of affective > disorders are members of the superfamily of G-protein-coupled receptors, " he > explained; and so modulation of G-protein mediated signal transduction may > underlie mechanisms of antidepressants as well as mood stabilizers. > Additional EFA Investigations > > Other presentations at the workshop included investigations of effects of > EFA supplementation on attention and cognition, and assessments of the > importance of EFAs in early development. Anton Llorente, Ph.D., of Baylor > University, administered 200 mg DHA or placebo daily to 140 women in > late-stage pregnancy to ascertain the effect on postpartum depression. This > population did not present sufficient depression to distinguish severity of > symptoms between groups. However, Llorente did demonstrate with the Stroop > Interference Test, a measure of alterations in formation processing, that > the supplement improved cognitive capacity in postpartum women without > depression. > > Two separate evaluations of EFA intervention for > attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) failed to show therapeutic > effect for this condition. Jay Burgess, Ph.D., of Purdue University, > compared LC-PUFA supplementation to an olive oil placebo in 50 children with > ADHD. He found an indication of benefit on some behavioral assessments, but > not across all measures. Voigt, M.D., of the Mayo Clinic, provided > DHA supplements (345 mg daily) or placebo to 63 children with ADHD who had > been successfully treated with stimulant medication. After four months of > supplementation, the stimulant dosage was halved. Although Voigt found the > DHA to be no more useful than placebo in sustaining clinical effect with > reduced dosage of stimulants, his group is now assessing whether there was > benefit demonstrated in any subpopulation. > > Martha Neuringer, Ph.D., from the Oregon Health Sciences University, in > Portland, Ore., and the Oregon Regional Primate Research Center, reported > that in rhesus monkeys as well as human infants, diets low in omega-3 EFAs > result in lowered DHA levels in the cerebral cortex and retina. Although it > has been difficult to assess whether the lower omega-3 EFA status correlates > with cognitive development, Neuringer indicated that it has been associated > with changes in visual development, including abnormalities in retinal > function, slower development of visual acuity and a longer visual fixation > that relates to slower visual processing. > > Neuringer said that the effects of early omega-3 EFA status on other > behavioral domains such as sleep patterns, temperament, emotional reactivity > and response to stress remain largely unexplored. " There is a need for more > comprehensive and long-term studies in both humans and animal models to > understand the influence of dietary fatty acids on development as well as on > later behavior, " she concluded. > > A note of caution was expressed by Nakamura, Ph.D., acting deputy > director, NIMH, who presented an introduction to the workshop and later > discussed the findings with Psychiatric Times. Nakamura said that while NIMH > is interested in new ideas about causes and treatments of mental disorders, > " the information being provided at this conference could not be interpreted > as more than suggestive. " > > Nakamura indicated that NIMH is receptive to applications for further > research into the role of EFAs in psychiatric disorders, but is not now > setting aside funding specifically for this area. He emphasized that with > only preliminary studies, psychiatric patients should be cautioned against > interrupting treatment with proven medications; and, if they choose to take > EFA supplements, should be advised that the quality of purity in these > dietary supplements is not regulated in the same manner as medication > products. > > References > 1. Berridge MJ, Downes CP, Hanley MR (1982), Lithium amplifies > agonist-dependent phosphatidylinositol responses in brain and salivary > glands. Biochem J 206(3):587-595. > 2. Frasure- N, Lesperance F, Talajic M (1995), Depression and 18-month > prognosis after myocardial infarction. Circulation 91(4):999-1005. > 3. Hibbeln JR, Salem N Jr (1995), Dietary polyunsaturated fats and > depression: when cholesterol does not satisfy. Am J Clin Nutr 61(1):1-9. > 4. Maes M, RS (1998), Fatty acids, cytokines and major depression. > Biol Psychiatry 43(5):313-314. > 5. RS (1991), The macrophage theory of depression. (Erratum appears > in Med Hypotheses 36[2]:178.) Med Hypotheses 35(4):298-306. > 6. Stoll AL, Sachs GS, Cohen BM et al. (1996), Choline in the treatment of > rapid-cycling bipolar > 7. disorder: clinical and neurochemical findings in lithium-treated > patients. Biol Psychiatry 40(5):382-388. > http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/49501 > > And in conclusion -from the ADHD study referenced above > > " but the successful studies have used rather large doses (up to 16 g fish > oil per day). " > > PS -that would be about 16 capsules of fish oils a day. > > ===== > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2010 Report Share Posted September 16, 2010 I am a HUGE believer in the essential oils too (OMG I'm starting to see a theme here- as long as the word essential is in front of it I love it???) But for me I use them for aromatherapy -but love to mix them into face creams too -LOVE the scents and what they can do in healing and for therapy -even percutaneous. I am aware that essential oils (if that is what you are using as I know there are lower quality oils too) can be consumed -but you need to always be aware of toxicity and from what I know they have to be of a certain quality and always diluted- maybe a drop or a few drops...and that's for adults. But 16 to 22 drops for a child? Isn't that like shooting your child with a cannon to help them loosen a tooth?!!! In a quick search on dosage and info about oil of oregano- yes it is a long time treatment for many conditions and I read is as powerful as Penicillin and is a very strong sedative. That being said neither would be things I would just give to my child without full understanding and second opinions from experts. You may want to double check the dosage because it appears to me blood thinning should at this point be the least of your worries and you want to know about toxicity. I tried to find an article in Pubmed on this- but don't have time to search for one that is most appropriate and credible -so will share what I found. I highly suggest you reconsider the dosage- I'd even stay stop it immediatly from all I read. I mean I read you aren't even supposed to use this with children -or if you are pregnant -and again for toxicity reasons. ~~~~~~~~~~ Oil of Oregano Side Effects 1: When pregnant or nursing, consult your health care practitioner before using Oil of Oregano. Chances are you'll want to avoid it. 3: Some recommend not treating children at all with this product. Others have used it for their children without any dangerous side effects. That said - do use caution if you're considering treating a child with Oil of Oregano, and do not let a child swallow the product at any dose. Again, follow the recommendations of your trusted health care practitioner to prepare a safe application for your child (I would venture that applying it topically, such as a diluted dose to the soles of the feet for absorption, is a safer method for treating children). http://www.candida-cure-recipes.com/oil-of-oregano-side-effects.html Oregano Essential Oil Origanum vulgare L. Hazards: moderate skin irritant, strong mucous membrane irritant. Cautions (dermal): Hypersensitive, diseased or damaged skin, children under 2 years of age. Cautions (inhalation, rectal, vaginal): Do not use at more than 1% concentration on mucous membrane. Toxicity data & recommendations: Undiluted oregano oil was severely irritating when applied to mouse skin and moderately irritating when applied to rabbit skin. Tested at 2% it produced no reaction after a patch test on human subjects. Comments: True oregano is Origanum vulgare, the herb used in the kitchen. However, the essential oil most commonly used in Europe is distilled from Thymus capitatus, and most safety data refer to this oil. Oils from many origins, as detailed above, may be offered as " oregano " or " origanum " oils. (and this is even from a site that is selling the product...they advice ONE DROP and that is AFTER 7 years old!!!!!!) Is Oil of Oregano safe for children? For infants and children up to the age of seven, only external use is recommended. Dilute one drop in a teaspoon or less of vegetable oil and massage into the soles of the feet. The oil may also be inhaled straight from the bottle or by placing a drop on a tissue or cloth. For older children the oil may be taken internally. It is advised to use only one drop and dilute it with olive oil, juice or a teaspoon of honey to reduce the heat sensation which may be too strong for a child. Preventative measures against disease are very effective in keeping your children healthy. Germs spread from the hands to the mouth are notorious for causing infections. Dirty fingernails harbor all kinds of nasty pathogens. Keep your child's fingernails short and frequently wash their hands and nails with a drop or two of Oil of Oregano and soap. Liquid soap mixes easily with the Oregano oil. and from the same site Can I take too much Oil of Oregano? Yes! Essential oils are composed of highly concentrated naturally occurring chemicals. Even herbs and natural forms of many plants are only beneficial in small quantities. This is true of Oil of Oregano. Please do not exceed recommended dosages except in cases of life threatening infection. The adage " less is more " is at work here. The liver must process Oregano oil and will become overloaded if too much is taken. People using excessive amounts of alcohol regularly or taking 3 or more prescription drugs should avoid using Oil of Oregano. http://curingherbs.com/using_wild_oregano_oil.htm Also from a site selling it Oregano Oil has a spicy, tangy and hot fragrance and a wide range of therapeutic properties, but also strong toxicity so it must be used with extreme caution. http://www.lotuspress.com/lotusbrands/tiferetonline/oregano.html When we use ayurveda in this group it's with products that are formulated and endorsed by world renowned medical doctors who have MUCH to lose in money and reputation if they put their name on a product that causes severe side effects http://pursuitofresearch.org/advisors.html Speaking of which have you even tried NV to see if that gets rid of the yeast too? I mean why not try it since in addition you may have multiple across the board surges in days and without the risks!! Who recommended this dosage for your child which seems exploratory and possibly irresponsible? You could even possibly report this if it was some sort of a doctor who has any credentials as I know in this group sometimes people see " doctors " who may be social workers, podiatrists, dentists who decided to now treat autism (yes I don't agree with that -and I'm friends with all of the above but wouldn't use any of them to treat my children with neuro conditions!!) Please please please don't give the dosage to your child today -please seek a second opinion because you want to know for sure you are not creating issues in the body much more severe than a yeast infection. ===== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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