Re: Chlorine Dioxide precipitates iron from the blood

[Guest guest]

At 09:14 AM 27/11/2007, you wrote:

>long term use will strip iron from the blood which is the oxygen

>carrying mechanism.

>

>This in turn will lead to the tiredness one member here testifies to.

If iron is stripped from the blood, which could lead to anemia (->

listlessness, tiredness amongst other things), wouldn't the extra

intake of Vit C 8000+ mg of ascorbic acid counteract that?

What is considered long-term use?

I started my MMS use in September, till the 3rd week of October then

ceased its use.

Hanneke

[Guest guest]

I’m not a chemist, but I believe this

information refers to iron contaminants in water. In the human body, free iron

isn’t the best thing to have floating around since it’s a strong oxidant (and

apparently doesn’t have the benefits of chlorine dioxide – as far as oxidation

is concerned). Heme iron is iron bound in tissue such as blood and isn’t “free.â€

Following is snipped from an article at Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heme

A heme or haem is a prosthetic

group that consists of an iron atom contained in the center of a large heterocyclic

organic ring called a porphyrin.

Not all porphyrins contain iron, but a substantial fraction of

porphyrin-containing metalloproteins have heme as their prosthetic subunit;

these are known as hemoproteins.

It sounds to me like the iron in tissue (red

blood cells, etc) isn’t necessarily available since it’s bound up by other

substances and thus might not be affected by chlorine dioxide. I question

whether the information in this article would apply to iron in the human body. Maybe

some chemist types could shed some more light on this.

Dana

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Levi Philos

The conclusion I draw from this site: http://www.chlorine-dioxide.com/index.asp?option=chem

is that long term use will strip iron from the blood which is the oxygen

carrying mechanism.

This in turn will lead to the tiredness one member here testifies to.

Now, from CureZone: http://www.curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1045349#i

**** EXACT QUOTE ****

Chemistry of Iron Oxidation

Chlorine dioxide and the chlorite byproduct rapidly oxidize Fe (II) to Fe

(III), which precipitates in sedimentation or is removed by filtration. After

the initial reaction by the chlorine dioxide gas per Equation 1, the chlorite

by product (above pH 6.5) continues to convert the soluble Fe (II) to Fe (III)

by the following reaction based on Equation 2 (2):

4 Fe (II) + ClO2 + 10H2O ⇌ 4 Fe (OH)3(s) + Cl- +

8H+ [Eq. 3]

In typical applications of chlorine dioxide to water streams containing iron,

manganese, and other oxidizables, about 50-70% of the chlorine dioxide is

initially converted to chlorite while simultaneously oxidizing some iron and

manganese (Eq. 1). The chlorite formed is capable of continuing to oxidize iron

according to Equation 3 where 1 mg of soluble ferrous iron will be converted to

1 mg of ferric iron by 0.3 mg/L of chlorite.

The reactivity of chlorite and the ferrous ion is well known, as it is common

practice to use ferrous chloride or ferrous sulfate to reduce or eliminate

chlorite in drinking water treated with chlorine dioxide. Dosage rates of 1.0

mg ferrous were demonstrated to remove 0.3 mg chlorite at full-plant scale in El Paso Texas

(7). If manganese is available in the source water, then additional chlorine

dioxide may be needed to oxidize it from the soluble Mn+2 form to the

precipitated Mn+4 form.

Chemistry of Manganese Oxidation

As in iron oxidation, chlorine dioxide and chlorite react rapidly with soluble

manganese by oxidizing it to manganese dioxide based on the following equation.

5Mn+2 + 2ClO2 (gas) + 6H2O ⇌ 5MnO2 + 12H+ + 2Cl-

[Eq. 4]

Equation 4 indicates about 0.5 mg of chlorine dioxide is required to oxidize 1

mg of soluble manganese to the precipitated form of manganese dioxide, based on

the complete reaction of chlorine dioxide and chlorite to chloride. For

example, a chlorine dioxide dose of 1.4 mg/L with 1.0 mg/L chlorite residual

may oxidize up to 2 mg/L of soluble manganese to the precipitated manganese

dioxide state. In the United

States, about 40% of raw water supplies

exceed 0.3 mg/L iron and 0.05 mg/L manganese. Often, source waters contain both

iron and manganese.

In these waters, the sum of each parameter should be determined for the total

amount of chlorine dioxide and chlorite byproduct required for complete

oxidation (1-7).

http://www.mixeddisinfectants.com/Product%20Bulletin%20-%20Fe%20Mn%20Reduction.pdf

I really don't know exactly what this means in terms of dosing and how much

mineral is lost in, for example, one drop of MMS, or for that matter, if it is

even applicable to the human body. However, it must be determined for the

further understanding of how to properly supplement our body with iron and

manganese while using MMS.

In addition, I am concerned about the iron's transformation, as it sounds like

it is converted into something unusable, which may lead to problems of its

own...

I don't want to upset anyone here but these are important considerations if you

want to supplement with MMS, also this is why I still feel that it may be

better to use MMS as a short-term detox protocol, at least until more is known.

Hopefully, someone with knowledge on matters of chemistry can better explain

this information and make sense of it all, but until then caution should be

used.

**** END QUOTE ****

At this point, I conclude short term usage at heavier dosage 10 - 15 drops

perhaps in two successive days is ok, then perhaps wait a week or two and

repeat, but don't use on a continuous basis.

I am neither doctor nor chemist -- Levi Philos

[Guest guest]

Hi I just listened to an interview with Jim H. and he said that he did

not want to tell anyone that it was safe to combine the two untill test

had been done. That is why there was a warning on the bottles. However

since that time it has been tested and he has found it to not be

harmfull.

S

[Guest guest]

It stands to reason that if MMS strips the iron from

the blood and it helps to eliminate the heavy metals

then it seems that it is more then likely taking out

minerals as well. So we all need to supplement

minerals. Just my two cents.

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Never miss a thing. Make your home page.

http://www./r/hs

[Guest guest]

Dans,

I sure am glad we have smart people on this post.

S

>

> I’m not a chemist, but I believe this information refers to iron

contaminants in water. In the human body, free iron isn’t the best

thing to have floating around since it’s a strong oxidant (and

apparently doesn’t have the benefits of chlorine dioxide †" as far

as oxidation is concerned). Heme iron is iron bound in tissue such as

blood and isn’t “free.†Following is snipped from an article at

Wikipedia:

>

>

>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heme

>

> A heme or haem is a prosthetic

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosthetic_group> group that consists

of an iron <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron> atom contained in the

center of a large heterocyclic

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterocyclic> organic ring called a

porphyrin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyrin> . Not all

porphyrins contain iron, but a substantial fraction of porphyrin-

containing metalloproteins

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalloprotein> have heme as their

prosthetic subunit; these are known as hemoproteins

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemoprotein> .

>

>

>

> It sounds to me like the iron in tissue (red blood cells, etc)

isn’t necessarily available since it’s bound up by other

substances and thus might not be affected by chlorine dioxide. I

question whether the information in this article would apply to iron

in the human body. Maybe some chemist types could shed some more

light on this.

>

> Dana

>

> _____

>

> From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Levi

Philos

>

> The conclusion I draw from this site: http://www.chlorine

<http://www.chlorine-dioxide.com/index.asp?option=chem> -

dioxide.com/index.asp?option=chem

>

> is that long term use will strip iron from the blood which is the

oxygen carrying mechanism.

>

> This in turn will lead to the tiredness one member here testifies

to.

>

> Now, from CureZone: http://www.curezone

<http://www.curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?

i=1045349#i> .com/forums/fm.asp?i=1045349#i

>

> **** EXACT QUOTE ****

>

> Chemistry of Iron Oxidation

>

> Chlorine dioxide and the chlorite byproduct rapidly oxidize Fe (II)

to Fe (III), which precipitates in sedimentation or is removed by

filtration. After the initial reaction by the chlorine dioxide gas

per Equation 1, the chlorite by product (above pH 6.5) continues to

convert the soluble Fe (II) to Fe (III) by the following reaction

based on Equation 2 (2):

>

> 4 Fe (II) + ClO2 + 10H2O ⇌ 4 Fe (OH)3(s) + Cl- + 8H+ [Eq. 3]

>

> In typical applications of chlorine dioxide to water streams

containing iron, manganese, and other oxidizables, about 50-70% of

the chlorine dioxide is initially converted to chlorite while

simultaneously oxidizing some iron and manganese (Eq. 1). The

chlorite formed is capable of continuing to oxidize iron according to

Equation 3 where 1 mg of soluble ferrous iron will be converted to 1

mg of ferric iron by 0.3 mg/L of chlorite.

>

>

> The reactivity of chlorite and the ferrous ion is well known, as it

is common practice to use ferrous chloride or ferrous sulfate to

reduce or eliminate chlorite in drinking water treated with chlorine

dioxide. Dosage rates of 1.0 mg ferrous were demonstrated to remove

0.3 mg chlorite at full-plant scale in El Paso Texas (7). If

manganese is available in the source water, then additional chlorine

dioxide may be needed to oxidize it from the soluble Mn+2 form to the

precipitated Mn+4 form.

>

> Chemistry of Manganese Oxidation

>

> As in iron oxidation, chlorine dioxide and chlorite react rapidly

with soluble manganese by oxidizing it to manganese dioxide based on

the following equation.

>

> 5Mn+2 + 2ClO2 (gas) + 6H2O ⇌ 5MnO2 + 12H+ + 2Cl- [Eq. 4]

>

> Equation 4 indicates about 0.5 mg of chlorine dioxide is required

to oxidize 1 mg of soluble manganese to the precipitated form of

manganese dioxide, based on the complete reaction of chlorine dioxide

and chlorite to chloride. For example, a chlorine dioxide dose of 1.4

mg/L with 1.0 mg/L chlorite residual may oxidize up to 2 mg/L of

soluble manganese to the precipitated manganese dioxide state. In the

United States, about 40% of raw water supplies exceed 0.3 mg/L iron

and 0.05 mg/L manganese. Often, source waters contain both iron and

manganese.

>

> In these waters, the sum of each parameter should be determined for

the total amount of chlorine dioxide and chlorite byproduct required

for complete oxidation (1-7).

>

>

> http://www.mixeddis <http://www.mixeddisinfectants.com/Product%

20Bulletin%20-%20Fe%20Mn%20Reduction.pdf> infectants.com/Product%

20Bulletin%20-%20Fe%20Mn%20Reduction.pdf

>

>

>

> I really don't know exactly what this means in terms of dosing and

how much mineral is lost in, for example, one drop of MMS, or for

that matter, if it is even applicable to the human body. However, it

must be determined for the further understanding of how to properly

supplement our body with iron and manganese while using MMS.

>

> In addition, I am concerned about the iron's transformation, as it

sounds like it is converted into something unusable, which may lead

to problems of its own...

>

> I don't want to upset anyone here but these are important

considerations if you want to supplement with MMS, also this is why I

still feel that it may be better to use MMS as a short-term detox

protocol, at least until more is known.

>

> Hopefully, someone with knowledge on matters of chemistry can

better explain this information and make sense of it all, but until

then caution should be used.

>

> **** END QUOTE ****

>

> At this point, I conclude short term usage at heavier dosage 10 -

15 drops perhaps in two successive days is ok, then perhaps wait a

week or two and repeat, but don't use on a continuous basis.

>

> I am neither doctor nor chemist -- Levi Philos

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Any chelator be it DMPS, EDTA or DMSA also carries

the risk of mineral depletion after long term usage.

If MMS bonds with metals and escorts them out, then I

don't see how it could be so selective as to not bond

with minerals in our systems? I still think that we

all should supplement minerals and my feeling is take

the MMS dose first and wait a few hours then

supplement the minerals much like you do the vitamin

C. I take Cholestyramine which mops up all kinds of

bad stuff in the system, but it also depleats my

mineral levels. It is not recommended that I

supplement the minerals before dosing as it is

counterproductive as the Cholestyramine just mops up

the minerals along with the neurotoxins and metals.

Low minerals can lead to a whole host of other

nonpathogen related problems they are perhaps more

important then vitamin supplementation as our bodies

can not make minerals and must assimilate them from

outside sources

Best Regards,

.

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Never miss a thing. Make your home page.

http://www./r/hs

[Guest guest]

Wow, that could be a neat way to remove excess iron if it works in the body.

But i suppose that with any chelation process one should replace minerals

virtually

simultaneously. flush out the old, used minerals and replace with fresh.

OK,

Tony M

On 26 Nov 2007 at 15:44, Levi Philos wrote about :

Subject : [ ] Chlori

> The conclusion I draw from this site:

http://www.chlorine-dioxide.com/index.asp?option=chem

>

> is that long term use will strip iron from the blood which is the oxygen

carrying mechanism.

>

> This in turn will lead to the tiredness one member here testifies to.

>

> Now, from CureZone: http://www.curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1045349#i

>

> **** EXACT QUOTE ****

>

> Chemistry of Iron Oxidation

>

> Chlorine dioxide and the chlorite byproduct rapidly oxidize Fe (II) to Fe

(III), which precipitates in

> sedimentation or is removed by filtration. After the initial reaction by the

chlorine dioxide gas per

> Equation 1, the chlorite by product (above pH 6.5) continues to convert the

soluble Fe (II) to Fe

> (III) by the following reaction based on Equation 2 (2):

>

> 4 Fe (II) + ClO2 + 10H2O 4 Fe (OH)3(s) + Cl- + 8H+ [Eq. 3]

>

> In typical applications of chlorine dioxide to water streams containing iron,

manganese, and other

> oxidizables, about 50-70% of the chlorine dioxide is initially converted to

chlorite while

> simultaneously oxidizing some iron and manganese (Eq. 1). The chlorite formed

is capable of

> continuing to oxidize iron according to Equation 3 where 1 mg of soluble

ferrous iron will be

> converted to 1 mg of ferric iron by 0.3 mg/L of chlorite.

>

>

> The reactivity of chlorite and the ferrous ion is well known, as it is common

practice to use ferrous

> chloride or ferrous sulfate to reduce or eliminate chlorite in drinking water

treated with chlorine

> dioxide. Dosage rates of 1.0 mg ferrous were demonstrated to remove 0.3 mg

chlorite at full-plant

> scale in El Paso Texas (7). If manganese is available in the source water,

then additional chlorine

> dioxide may be needed to oxidize it from the soluble Mn+2 form to the

precipitated Mn+4 form.

>

> Chemistry of Manganese Oxidation

>

> As in iron oxidation, chlorine dioxide and chlorite react rapidly with soluble

manganese by

> oxidizing it to manganese dioxide based on the following equation.

>

> 5Mn+2 + 2ClO2 (gas) + 6H2O 5MnO2 + 12H+ + 2Cl- [Eq. 4]

>

> Equation 4 indicates about 0.5 mg of chlorine dioxide is required to oxidize 1

mg of soluble

> manganese to the precipitated form of manganese dioxide, based on the complete

reaction of

> chlorine dioxide and chlorite to chloride. For example, a chlorine dioxide

dose of 1.4 mg/L with 1.0

> mg/L chlorite residual may oxidize up to 2 mg/L of soluble manganese to the

precipitated

> manganese dioxide state. In the United States, about 40% of raw water supplies

exceed 0.3 mg/L

> iron and 0.05 mg/L manganese. Often, source waters contain both iron and

manganese.

>

> In these waters, the sum of each parameter should be determined for the total

amount of chlorine

> dioxide and chlorite byproduct required for complete oxidation (1-7).

>

>

>

http://www.mixeddisinfectants.com/Product%20Bulletin%20-%20Fe%20Mn%20Reduction.p\

df

>

>

>

> I really don't know exactly what this means in terms of dosing and how much

mineral is lost in, for

> example, one drop of MMS, or for that matter, if it is even applicable to the

human body. However,

> it must be determined for the further understanding of how to properly

supplement our body with

> iron and manganese while using MMS.

>

> In addition, I am concerned about the iron's transformation, as it sounds like

it is converted into

> something unusable, which may lead to problems of its own...

>

> I don't want to upset anyone here but these are important considerations if

you want to

> supplement with MMS, also this is why I still feel that it may be better to

use MMS as a short-term

> detox protocol, at least until more is known.

>

> Hopefully, someone with knowledge on matters of chemistry can better explain

this information

> and make sense of it all, but until then caution should be used.

>

> **** END QUOTE ****

>

> At this point, I conclude short term usage at heavier dosage 10 - 15 drops

perhaps in two

> successive days is ok, then perhaps wait a week or two and repeat, but don't

use on a continuous

> basis.

>

> I am neither doctor nor chemist -- Levi Philos

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ah ha, Sharon said it "Hemochromotosis". My wife has that, high iron in the blood and the only way, they say, is to take a pint of blood. In here case about every three months or so.

If MMS depletes mineral and in my mind that question has not been decided, all this talk is pure speculation. But if it does we'll see my wife's iron drop and she won't have to have a phlebotomy....that part would be a plus.

Jack

[Guest guest]

Dana,

Thanks for the input and suggestion re IP6. Incidentally I have a couple bottles if IP6 on hand. I can't remember if I was going to suggested to the wife that she take it or where I got the info....duh I have an excuse....I'm old!

But, since she has hemochromotosis and she is on MMS, has been for about two weeks, I'm not going to suggest she take IP6 until we see the lab results upcoming. She has a Dr. Apt to review on Dec 11 and she'll do a lab about 3 or 4 days ahead of that so she will have been on MMS about a month by that time. We are both doing 8 drops. We have enough history with this situation we should be able to tell if the MMS has effected her iron level. I'm on the fence about all this speculation that MMS depletes minerals.

Jack

[Guest guest]

susan,

remember also that persons with Lyme are very magnesium defficiant

because of the disease.

S

>

> I think you are right, because lately I have been getting anxiety

attacks,

> shortness of breath and I feel like I am starting to faint if I

don't sit.

> But when I used my transdermal magnesium after one of

these " episodes " I

> felt better. I have decided to increase my minerals to see if I

can make

> this totally go away.

>

> It is interesting that so many members are having heart palp

isssues. It

> sort of reinforces the theory of mineral depletion.

>

> S.

>

> -- [ ] Re: Chlorine Dioxide

precipitates iron

> from the blood

>

> It stands to reason that if MMS strips the iron from

> the blood and it helps to eliminate the heavy metals

> then it seems that it is more then likely taking out

> minerals as well. So we all need to supplement

> minerals. Just my two cents.

>

>

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

_______

> ______

> Never miss a thing. Make your home page.

> http://www./r/hs

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>If MMS bonds with metals and escorts them out, then I>don't see how it could be so selective as to not bond>with minerals in our systems?

>

This is pure speculation. With mercury, the theory is that the

chlorine dioxide reacts with mercury to change it from an

organic form to an inorganic form, which is supposed to be

more readily removed from the body. In my view this will not

work. The point is that you are not studying the subject before

you are speculating.

With iron, there is absolutely no way chlorite or chlorine dioxide

will remove iron from the body. The issue is whether iron is

precipitated. With other minerals like say zinc or magnesium,

there is no reason to think that they will be removed from the

body.

Also remember that it is illegal to give medical advice. And what

constitutes medical advice is decided by a judge or jury.

Mo