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Moto umewaka leo.Na moto ni kazi ya Nd. Otieno Mbare............................

Nd.Matunda said in his mail below: ''Have a chauvinist-free debate of

open-mindedness.'' Swali.How are we doing so far????? Wams

=======================================================

This is my position on the current debate on circumcision! Please,

disseminate!

Otieno Mbare

--

----------------------------------------------------------

http://www.abo.fi/~ombare/Kasipul-Kabondo%20Musiikki.wma

----------------------------------------------------------

Otieno Mbare, D.Sc.(Econ. & B.Adm)

Åbo Akademi University

Institute for Advance Management Systems Research

Lemminkäinengatan 14

Office location: Kulturhuset, Fabriksgatan 7A 1

Tel. +358 2 2154 976 (Off) +358 40 5341 996

http://iamsr.abo.fi

Email: Otieno.Mbare@..., awachtin@...

20520 ÅBO

Finland

The Misleading Call for Circumcision

By

Otieno Mbare, PhD (Research Fellow)

I would not have ventured into this sensitive debate if it did not

have direct consequences for my children, the posterity of the Luo

nation and other non-circumcising communities around the world.

However, the debate has been fueled following a research that was

carried out by some researchers in Kenya and Uganda and; consequently

published in January 2008 in the BJU International. Had it not

acquired political overtones that sought to authenticate an otherwise

a lop-sided research whose methodology, validity, plausibility and

veracity are in doubt, I would have not wasted my precious time

debating it.

Yet, this issue touches on the very nerves of the communities that are

not practicing circumcision. It is an old time debate that has been

misguidedly used to show cultural superiority and supremacy among

different communities. The same argument has sadly been used to

stigmatize, lower the image and undermine the culture of the Luo

community. Scientific research as evidenced in the Mexico conference

has rejected that line of thinking as a dead-end research. It will

further give a false hope that a cure has finally arrived albeit with

devastating consequences to our society.

It is therefore surprising that none other than my friend Hon. Raila

Odinga (no disrespect intended!), who has suffered the wrath of these

cultural purists, was the one who went out prescribing the new

medicine for the " uncut " . This happened a few days after receiving

with his in-laws from central Kenya. I will not question Hon. Odinga's

wisdom but this is a very sensitive cultural issue that a person of

his standing in Luoland and Kenya in particular, cannot afford to

discuss it casually they way he did. I understand people have started

saying derogatively that " Luoland sasa ni kichinjoni " because the PM

has said so! The endorsement for circumcision in the Luo nation is

totally unacceptable!

I don't intend to argue here that our culture is pure and superior.

But, let me make it clear that there are certain cultural practices

that need to be eradicated without legislation. Practices such as

inheriting someone's wife whose husband, probably died of aids and,

other promiscuous habits. These are issues that have to be addressed

and develop a common position not only for one community, but for the

entire society. Abstention and regular use of the condom is the sure

way out of the current HIV quagmire. This is what elected leaders

should be advocating instead advocating for something which is meant

to demean and portray our culture as inferior!

It is for this reason that most members of the community have felt

provoked by an assault directed at our culture. Yet, the research is

so hollow that there is no knowing whether the sample group and the

control group had been subjected to a full-blown situation to validate

their research finding! I do not want to dispute circumcision for

those who are practicing it for it is seen as a rite of passage

marking a boy's entrance into adulthood. Sometimes it was performed as

a means of suppressing sexual pleasure, or used as an aid to hygiene

where regular bathing was impractical. At other times, it is performed

as a means of differentiating a circumcising group from their

non-circumcising neighbors, as a means of discouraging masturbation,

or to increase a man's attractiveness to women, or as a symbolic

castration.

The Luos have since used and abandoned other cultural practices that

marks the passage of a boy to adulthood. We have refused to embrace

circumcision for various reasons; First, circumcision is not part of

our culture. It is foreign! Second, our other objection which is

supported by the existing literatures and research is that

circumcision changes physical sensitivity in the penis of a man.

A 2007 study funded by an organization which opposes circumcision, and

published in the journal BJU International, found a difference in fine

touch sensitivity between men who were circumcised and those who were

uncircumcised (such that circumcised men had less sensitivity to fine

touch in all but one area of the penis). This same study also compared

the sensitivity thresholds at various points on the penis and

concluded that the most sensitive part of the uncircumcised penis was

more sensitive than the most sensitive parts of the circumcised penis.

The authors argue that the parts of the penis removed by circumcision

represent the most sensitive parts of the penis.

Similarly, in a poll conducted by an anti-circumcision organization,

61% of men who were circumcised as infants reported decreased

sensation over time, which they report resulted in sexual dysfunction.

And recently, a study by DaiSik Kim and Myung-Geol Pang on the " The

effect of male circumcision on sexuality " found there was a decrease

in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision,

indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function

in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a

loss of nerve endings. I do not want to speculate that some high-level

conspiracy has been hatched to render Luo men dysfunctional. I will

simply stick to the issue which can be corroborated through the

overwhelming existing body of knowledge concerning the matter at hand.

Let me further buttress my argument by citing kson Paige 1978

article The Ritual of Circumcision, where she writes: " In the United

States, the original reason for the surgical removal of the foreskin,

or prepuce, was to control 'masturbatory insanity' (what the Luo would

call, thelo-oyuma!) - the range of mental disorders that people

believed were caused by the 'polluting' practice of 'self-abuse.' "

And here, she describes " Self-abuse " as a terminology commonly used to

describe masturbation in the 19th century. According to Paige,

" treatments ranged from diet, moral exhortations, hydrotherapy, and

marriage, to such drastic measures as surgery, physical restraints,

frights, and punishment.

But how was this conundrum conceived in the bible. Because the Luo

nation have always followed the bible and what was bequeathed to them

by Ramogi at Go-Kwer! The scriptures, which my late father, Jakwath

Festo Mbare made his constant book of reference says that the Council

of Jerusalem in Acts of the Apostles 15 addressed the issue of whether

circumcision was required of new converts to Christianity. Both Simon

and spoke against requiring circumcision in Gentile

converts and the Council ruled that circumcision was not necessary.

However, Acts 16 and many references in the Letters of show that

the practice was not immediately eliminated. of Tarsus, who was

said to be directly responsible for one man's circumcision in Acts

16:1-3 and who appeared to praise Jewish circumcision in Romans 3:2,

said that circumcision didn't matter in 1 Corinthians 7:19 and then

increasingly turned against the practice, accusing those who promoted

circumcision of wanting to make a good showing in the flesh and

boasting or glorying in the flesh in Galatians 6:11-13. In a later

letter, Philippians 3:2, he is reported as warning Christians to

beware the " mutilation " . These teachings and others reinforces the

very beliefs we have upheld as a community.

Finally, the American Academy of Pediatrics (1999) stated " There are

anecdotal reports that penile sensation and sexual satisfaction are

decreased for circumcised males " . Boyle et al. stated that " the

genitally intact male has thousands of fine touch receptors and other

highly erogenous nerve endings—many of which are lost to circumcision.

They concluded, " Evidence has also started to accumulate that male

circumcision may result in lifelong physical, sexual, and sometimes

psychological harm as well. "

The caveat that I have to express is that circumcision has not, and

will never be part of our culture. Who ever want to do it is free to

do so without involving the community. But if you get circumcised,

know that they are amputating your foreskin. One should be informed

that the sensitivity that you feel, not only in that skin, but the

surrounding tissues, including the glands, will be drastically

affected and diminished.

Researchers also allege that not only are the nerve endings gone with

the foreskin, but remaining nerve endings are severed, blood flow

permanently disrupted, and the shaft skin will be tight, possibly

painfully tight. Several months after this, the sensitivity remaining

will begin to fade, and will continue to do so. The warning to our

people is, " Circumcision will damage your penis and your sexual

ability; that's what it does " .

Even the British Medical Association has reported that " there is

significant disagreement about whether circumcision is overall a

beneficial, neutral or harmful procedure. At present, the medical

literature on the health, including sexual health, implications of

circumcision is contradictory, and often subject to claims of bias in

research. " [

-----------------------------------------------------------------

On 8/18/08, nmatunda <matunda@...> wrote:

Wananchi,

I am watching this debate from afar!

It is a replay of the same (albeit with a large audience and broader

attention) we had back in the 1990s when it was first suggested that

the " male cut " can reduce the chances of HIV/AIDS - note: reduce and

NOT immunize.

Some of us (vocal as ever) then suggested that people be open-minded

when discussing this; and that those from groups that did this as a

routine rite of passage be sensitive to those that do not!

You should have seen the fireworks then! How I wish for the archives

from those days of kenya-net, perhaps 15 years ago!

Yes, it has been 15 years in the the making; the debate, that is! And

look where we are: almost on the same spot as we were then.

Raila is the right messenger for this cause, given the political clout

he wields and considering he comes from where the cut doesn't happen

as a matter of routine! No longer would others (those from outside) be

termed chauvinists because they suggest male circumcision.

Let the drama play; but we also know a thing or so about social

change: it is slow and, at times, generations MUST die off before a

specific change becomes a norm.

Have a chauvinist-free debate of open-mindedness.

Matunda Nyanchama

In africa-oped , " Margaret Gichuki " <Wams2006@...> wrote:

Haiya............Is that the PM speaking? I think he needs to

apologize to the uncut communities maraone.I watched the clip 3 times

to believe what the papers reported.

And for once, Uncle Tom Ojanga is on the other side.Wah, wah, wah...Jowa!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3fj8npynUA & eurl=http://www.eastandard.net/

On 8/18/08, Kuria-Mwangi kjmwangi@... wrote:

Tom,

You also seems pissed off like this neighbor:

Dearests,

In just about 6 months flat as our " Prime Minister " , Raila Odinga has

managed to:

- PISS OFF COASTARIANS BY POKING HIS NOSE IN THE COAST-JIMBO-OWNED

KENYA PORTS AUTHORITY;

PISS OFF LUOS, POKOTS AND TURKANAS BY ADVOCATING FOR MALE CIRCUMCISION

WHILE USING HIS POT-HEAD SON'S MARRIAGE TO A KIKUYU AS THE STANDARD OF

MEASURE FOR LUO MARITAL SUCCESS;

PISS OFF BOTH THE KALENJINS AND THE MAASAIS WITH HIS BLIND

INTERFERENCE IN THE MAU FOREST QUAGMIRE;

PISS OFF ZIMBABWEANS, SOUTH AFRICANS AND AFRICAN NATIONALISTS BY

AIRING ZIMBABWE'S DIRTY LAUNDRY IN INTERNATIONAL SUNSHINE;

Mark you, all these pi.s.s.ing off incidents are happening when Lake

, the main bread and butter for the Luos, is being labeled one

of the biggest ecological disasters in the world.

Obviously, we are onto something big come 2012.

Loyally,

________________________________

Wuod Nyar Boro

Rock Creek Park Neighborhood

Northwest, Washington DC

email: wuodnyarboro@...

On 8/18/08, asego2002 asego2002@... wrote:

my cut-o-map tells me that most of the world is un-cut. so what is all

this thing about the cut when its actually not the norm ?

the only country in east africa in which most tribes do the cut is

kenya. infact only the wagisu (bukusus of uganda) do the cut in uganda.

the obsession with " cut or no cut " has been a lie peddled over the last

45 years to deny the un-cut a place at the seat of power. there are

more un-cut-ted tools that got the population of the world to

6,602,224,175 than cut-ted ones...

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Moto umewaka leo.Na moto ni kazi ya Nd. Otieno Mbare............................

Nd.Matunda said in his mail below: ''Have a chauvinist-free debate of

open-mindedness.'' Swali.How are we doing so far????? Wams

=======================================================

This is my position on the current debate on circumcision! Please,

disseminate!

Otieno Mbare

--

----------------------------------------------------------

http://www.abo.fi/~ombare/Kasipul-Kabondo%20Musiikki.wma

----------------------------------------------------------

Otieno Mbare, D.Sc.(Econ. & B.Adm)

Åbo Akademi University

Institute for Advance Management Systems Research

Lemminkäinengatan 14

Office location: Kulturhuset, Fabriksgatan 7A 1

Tel. +358 2 2154 976 (Off) +358 40 5341 996

http://iamsr.abo.fi

Email: Otieno.Mbare@..., awachtin@...

20520 ÅBO

Finland

The Misleading Call for Circumcision

By

Otieno Mbare, PhD (Research Fellow)

I would not have ventured into this sensitive debate if it did not

have direct consequences for my children, the posterity of the Luo

nation and other non-circumcising communities around the world.

However, the debate has been fueled following a research that was

carried out by some researchers in Kenya and Uganda and; consequently

published in January 2008 in the BJU International. Had it not

acquired political overtones that sought to authenticate an otherwise

a lop-sided research whose methodology, validity, plausibility and

veracity are in doubt, I would have not wasted my precious time

debating it.

Yet, this issue touches on the very nerves of the communities that are

not practicing circumcision. It is an old time debate that has been

misguidedly used to show cultural superiority and supremacy among

different communities. The same argument has sadly been used to

stigmatize, lower the image and undermine the culture of the Luo

community. Scientific research as evidenced in the Mexico conference

has rejected that line of thinking as a dead-end research. It will

further give a false hope that a cure has finally arrived albeit with

devastating consequences to our society.

It is therefore surprising that none other than my friend Hon. Raila

Odinga (no disrespect intended!), who has suffered the wrath of these

cultural purists, was the one who went out prescribing the new

medicine for the " uncut " . This happened a few days after receiving

with his in-laws from central Kenya. I will not question Hon. Odinga's

wisdom but this is a very sensitive cultural issue that a person of

his standing in Luoland and Kenya in particular, cannot afford to

discuss it casually they way he did. I understand people have started

saying derogatively that " Luoland sasa ni kichinjoni " because the PM

has said so! The endorsement for circumcision in the Luo nation is

totally unacceptable!

I don't intend to argue here that our culture is pure and superior.

But, let me make it clear that there are certain cultural practices

that need to be eradicated without legislation. Practices such as

inheriting someone's wife whose husband, probably died of aids and,

other promiscuous habits. These are issues that have to be addressed

and develop a common position not only for one community, but for the

entire society. Abstention and regular use of the condom is the sure

way out of the current HIV quagmire. This is what elected leaders

should be advocating instead advocating for something which is meant

to demean and portray our culture as inferior!

It is for this reason that most members of the community have felt

provoked by an assault directed at our culture. Yet, the research is

so hollow that there is no knowing whether the sample group and the

control group had been subjected to a full-blown situation to validate

their research finding! I do not want to dispute circumcision for

those who are practicing it for it is seen as a rite of passage

marking a boy's entrance into adulthood. Sometimes it was performed as

a means of suppressing sexual pleasure, or used as an aid to hygiene

where regular bathing was impractical. At other times, it is performed

as a means of differentiating a circumcising group from their

non-circumcising neighbors, as a means of discouraging masturbation,

or to increase a man's attractiveness to women, or as a symbolic

castration.

The Luos have since used and abandoned other cultural practices that

marks the passage of a boy to adulthood. We have refused to embrace

circumcision for various reasons; First, circumcision is not part of

our culture. It is foreign! Second, our other objection which is

supported by the existing literatures and research is that

circumcision changes physical sensitivity in the penis of a man.

A 2007 study funded by an organization which opposes circumcision, and

published in the journal BJU International, found a difference in fine

touch sensitivity between men who were circumcised and those who were

uncircumcised (such that circumcised men had less sensitivity to fine

touch in all but one area of the penis). This same study also compared

the sensitivity thresholds at various points on the penis and

concluded that the most sensitive part of the uncircumcised penis was

more sensitive than the most sensitive parts of the circumcised penis.

The authors argue that the parts of the penis removed by circumcision

represent the most sensitive parts of the penis.

Similarly, in a poll conducted by an anti-circumcision organization,

61% of men who were circumcised as infants reported decreased

sensation over time, which they report resulted in sexual dysfunction.

And recently, a study by DaiSik Kim and Myung-Geol Pang on the " The

effect of male circumcision on sexuality " found there was a decrease

in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision,

indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function

in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a

loss of nerve endings. I do not want to speculate that some high-level

conspiracy has been hatched to render Luo men dysfunctional. I will

simply stick to the issue which can be corroborated through the

overwhelming existing body of knowledge concerning the matter at hand.

Let me further buttress my argument by citing kson Paige 1978

article The Ritual of Circumcision, where she writes: " In the United

States, the original reason for the surgical removal of the foreskin,

or prepuce, was to control 'masturbatory insanity' (what the Luo would

call, thelo-oyuma!) - the range of mental disorders that people

believed were caused by the 'polluting' practice of 'self-abuse.' "

And here, she describes " Self-abuse " as a terminology commonly used to

describe masturbation in the 19th century. According to Paige,

" treatments ranged from diet, moral exhortations, hydrotherapy, and

marriage, to such drastic measures as surgery, physical restraints,

frights, and punishment.

But how was this conundrum conceived in the bible. Because the Luo

nation have always followed the bible and what was bequeathed to them

by Ramogi at Go-Kwer! The scriptures, which my late father, Jakwath

Festo Mbare made his constant book of reference says that the Council

of Jerusalem in Acts of the Apostles 15 addressed the issue of whether

circumcision was required of new converts to Christianity. Both Simon

and spoke against requiring circumcision in Gentile

converts and the Council ruled that circumcision was not necessary.

However, Acts 16 and many references in the Letters of show that

the practice was not immediately eliminated. of Tarsus, who was

said to be directly responsible for one man's circumcision in Acts

16:1-3 and who appeared to praise Jewish circumcision in Romans 3:2,

said that circumcision didn't matter in 1 Corinthians 7:19 and then

increasingly turned against the practice, accusing those who promoted

circumcision of wanting to make a good showing in the flesh and

boasting or glorying in the flesh in Galatians 6:11-13. In a later

letter, Philippians 3:2, he is reported as warning Christians to

beware the " mutilation " . These teachings and others reinforces the

very beliefs we have upheld as a community.

Finally, the American Academy of Pediatrics (1999) stated " There are

anecdotal reports that penile sensation and sexual satisfaction are

decreased for circumcised males " . Boyle et al. stated that " the

genitally intact male has thousands of fine touch receptors and other

highly erogenous nerve endings—many of which are lost to circumcision.

They concluded, " Evidence has also started to accumulate that male

circumcision may result in lifelong physical, sexual, and sometimes

psychological harm as well. "

The caveat that I have to express is that circumcision has not, and

will never be part of our culture. Who ever want to do it is free to

do so without involving the community. But if you get circumcised,

know that they are amputating your foreskin. One should be informed

that the sensitivity that you feel, not only in that skin, but the

surrounding tissues, including the glands, will be drastically

affected and diminished.

Researchers also allege that not only are the nerve endings gone with

the foreskin, but remaining nerve endings are severed, blood flow

permanently disrupted, and the shaft skin will be tight, possibly

painfully tight. Several months after this, the sensitivity remaining

will begin to fade, and will continue to do so. The warning to our

people is, " Circumcision will damage your penis and your sexual

ability; that's what it does " .

Even the British Medical Association has reported that " there is

significant disagreement about whether circumcision is overall a

beneficial, neutral or harmful procedure. At present, the medical

literature on the health, including sexual health, implications of

circumcision is contradictory, and often subject to claims of bias in

research. " [

-----------------------------------------------------------------

On 8/18/08, nmatunda <matunda@...> wrote:

Wananchi,

I am watching this debate from afar!

It is a replay of the same (albeit with a large audience and broader

attention) we had back in the 1990s when it was first suggested that

the " male cut " can reduce the chances of HIV/AIDS - note: reduce and

NOT immunize.

Some of us (vocal as ever) then suggested that people be open-minded

when discussing this; and that those from groups that did this as a

routine rite of passage be sensitive to those that do not!

You should have seen the fireworks then! How I wish for the archives

from those days of kenya-net, perhaps 15 years ago!

Yes, it has been 15 years in the the making; the debate, that is! And

look where we are: almost on the same spot as we were then.

Raila is the right messenger for this cause, given the political clout

he wields and considering he comes from where the cut doesn't happen

as a matter of routine! No longer would others (those from outside) be

termed chauvinists because they suggest male circumcision.

Let the drama play; but we also know a thing or so about social

change: it is slow and, at times, generations MUST die off before a

specific change becomes a norm.

Have a chauvinist-free debate of open-mindedness.

Matunda Nyanchama

In africa-oped , " Margaret Gichuki " <Wams2006@...> wrote:

Haiya............Is that the PM speaking? I think he needs to

apologize to the uncut communities maraone.I watched the clip 3 times

to believe what the papers reported.

And for once, Uncle Tom Ojanga is on the other side.Wah, wah, wah...Jowa!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3fj8npynUA & eurl=http://www.eastandard.net/

On 8/18/08, Kuria-Mwangi kjmwangi@... wrote:

Tom,

You also seems pissed off like this neighbor:

Dearests,

In just about 6 months flat as our " Prime Minister " , Raila Odinga has

managed to:

- PISS OFF COASTARIANS BY POKING HIS NOSE IN THE COAST-JIMBO-OWNED

KENYA PORTS AUTHORITY;

PISS OFF LUOS, POKOTS AND TURKANAS BY ADVOCATING FOR MALE CIRCUMCISION

WHILE USING HIS POT-HEAD SON'S MARRIAGE TO A KIKUYU AS THE STANDARD OF

MEASURE FOR LUO MARITAL SUCCESS;

PISS OFF BOTH THE KALENJINS AND THE MAASAIS WITH HIS BLIND

INTERFERENCE IN THE MAU FOREST QUAGMIRE;

PISS OFF ZIMBABWEANS, SOUTH AFRICANS AND AFRICAN NATIONALISTS BY

AIRING ZIMBABWE'S DIRTY LAUNDRY IN INTERNATIONAL SUNSHINE;

Mark you, all these pi.s.s.ing off incidents are happening when Lake

, the main bread and butter for the Luos, is being labeled one

of the biggest ecological disasters in the world.

Obviously, we are onto something big come 2012.

Loyally,

________________________________

Wuod Nyar Boro

Rock Creek Park Neighborhood

Northwest, Washington DC

email: wuodnyarboro@...

On 8/18/08, asego2002 asego2002@... wrote:

my cut-o-map tells me that most of the world is un-cut. so what is all

this thing about the cut when its actually not the norm ?

the only country in east africa in which most tribes do the cut is

kenya. infact only the wagisu (bukusus of uganda) do the cut in uganda.

the obsession with " cut or no cut " has been a lie peddled over the last

45 years to deny the un-cut a place at the seat of power. there are

more un-cut-ted tools that got the population of the world to

6,602,224,175 than cut-ted ones...

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