Guest guest Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Moto umewaka leo.Na moto ni kazi ya Nd. Otieno Mbare............................ Nd.Matunda said in his mail below: ''Have a chauvinist-free debate of open-mindedness.'' Swali.How are we doing so far????? Wams ======================================================= This is my position on the current debate on circumcision! Please, disseminate! Otieno Mbare -- ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.abo.fi/~ombare/Kasipul-Kabondo%20Musiikki.wma ---------------------------------------------------------- Otieno Mbare, D.Sc.(Econ. & B.Adm) Åbo Akademi University Institute for Advance Management Systems Research Lemminkäinengatan 14 Office location: Kulturhuset, Fabriksgatan 7A 1 Tel. +358 2 2154 976 (Off) +358 40 5341 996 http://iamsr.abo.fi Email: Otieno.Mbare@..., awachtin@... 20520 ÅBO Finland The Misleading Call for Circumcision By Otieno Mbare, PhD (Research Fellow) I would not have ventured into this sensitive debate if it did not have direct consequences for my children, the posterity of the Luo nation and other non-circumcising communities around the world. However, the debate has been fueled following a research that was carried out by some researchers in Kenya and Uganda and; consequently published in January 2008 in the BJU International. Had it not acquired political overtones that sought to authenticate an otherwise a lop-sided research whose methodology, validity, plausibility and veracity are in doubt, I would have not wasted my precious time debating it. Yet, this issue touches on the very nerves of the communities that are not practicing circumcision. It is an old time debate that has been misguidedly used to show cultural superiority and supremacy among different communities. The same argument has sadly been used to stigmatize, lower the image and undermine the culture of the Luo community. Scientific research as evidenced in the Mexico conference has rejected that line of thinking as a dead-end research. It will further give a false hope that a cure has finally arrived albeit with devastating consequences to our society. It is therefore surprising that none other than my friend Hon. Raila Odinga (no disrespect intended!), who has suffered the wrath of these cultural purists, was the one who went out prescribing the new medicine for the " uncut " . This happened a few days after receiving with his in-laws from central Kenya. I will not question Hon. Odinga's wisdom but this is a very sensitive cultural issue that a person of his standing in Luoland and Kenya in particular, cannot afford to discuss it casually they way he did. I understand people have started saying derogatively that " Luoland sasa ni kichinjoni " because the PM has said so! The endorsement for circumcision in the Luo nation is totally unacceptable! I don't intend to argue here that our culture is pure and superior. But, let me make it clear that there are certain cultural practices that need to be eradicated without legislation. Practices such as inheriting someone's wife whose husband, probably died of aids and, other promiscuous habits. These are issues that have to be addressed and develop a common position not only for one community, but for the entire society. Abstention and regular use of the condom is the sure way out of the current HIV quagmire. This is what elected leaders should be advocating instead advocating for something which is meant to demean and portray our culture as inferior! It is for this reason that most members of the community have felt provoked by an assault directed at our culture. Yet, the research is so hollow that there is no knowing whether the sample group and the control group had been subjected to a full-blown situation to validate their research finding! I do not want to dispute circumcision for those who are practicing it for it is seen as a rite of passage marking a boy's entrance into adulthood. Sometimes it was performed as a means of suppressing sexual pleasure, or used as an aid to hygiene where regular bathing was impractical. At other times, it is performed as a means of differentiating a circumcising group from their non-circumcising neighbors, as a means of discouraging masturbation, or to increase a man's attractiveness to women, or as a symbolic castration. The Luos have since used and abandoned other cultural practices that marks the passage of a boy to adulthood. We have refused to embrace circumcision for various reasons; First, circumcision is not part of our culture. It is foreign! Second, our other objection which is supported by the existing literatures and research is that circumcision changes physical sensitivity in the penis of a man. A 2007 study funded by an organization which opposes circumcision, and published in the journal BJU International, found a difference in fine touch sensitivity between men who were circumcised and those who were uncircumcised (such that circumcised men had less sensitivity to fine touch in all but one area of the penis). This same study also compared the sensitivity thresholds at various points on the penis and concluded that the most sensitive part of the uncircumcised penis was more sensitive than the most sensitive parts of the circumcised penis. The authors argue that the parts of the penis removed by circumcision represent the most sensitive parts of the penis. Similarly, in a poll conducted by an anti-circumcision organization, 61% of men who were circumcised as infants reported decreased sensation over time, which they report resulted in sexual dysfunction. And recently, a study by DaiSik Kim and Myung-Geol Pang on the " The effect of male circumcision on sexuality " found there was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings. I do not want to speculate that some high-level conspiracy has been hatched to render Luo men dysfunctional. I will simply stick to the issue which can be corroborated through the overwhelming existing body of knowledge concerning the matter at hand. Let me further buttress my argument by citing kson Paige 1978 article The Ritual of Circumcision, where she writes: " In the United States, the original reason for the surgical removal of the foreskin, or prepuce, was to control 'masturbatory insanity' (what the Luo would call, thelo-oyuma!) - the range of mental disorders that people believed were caused by the 'polluting' practice of 'self-abuse.' " And here, she describes " Self-abuse " as a terminology commonly used to describe masturbation in the 19th century. According to Paige, " treatments ranged from diet, moral exhortations, hydrotherapy, and marriage, to such drastic measures as surgery, physical restraints, frights, and punishment. But how was this conundrum conceived in the bible. Because the Luo nation have always followed the bible and what was bequeathed to them by Ramogi at Go-Kwer! The scriptures, which my late father, Jakwath Festo Mbare made his constant book of reference says that the Council of Jerusalem in Acts of the Apostles 15 addressed the issue of whether circumcision was required of new converts to Christianity. Both Simon and spoke against requiring circumcision in Gentile converts and the Council ruled that circumcision was not necessary. However, Acts 16 and many references in the Letters of show that the practice was not immediately eliminated. of Tarsus, who was said to be directly responsible for one man's circumcision in Acts 16:1-3 and who appeared to praise Jewish circumcision in Romans 3:2, said that circumcision didn't matter in 1 Corinthians 7:19 and then increasingly turned against the practice, accusing those who promoted circumcision of wanting to make a good showing in the flesh and boasting or glorying in the flesh in Galatians 6:11-13. In a later letter, Philippians 3:2, he is reported as warning Christians to beware the " mutilation " . These teachings and others reinforces the very beliefs we have upheld as a community. Finally, the American Academy of Pediatrics (1999) stated " There are anecdotal reports that penile sensation and sexual satisfaction are decreased for circumcised males " . Boyle et al. stated that " the genitally intact male has thousands of fine touch receptors and other highly erogenous nerve endings—many of which are lost to circumcision. They concluded, " Evidence has also started to accumulate that male circumcision may result in lifelong physical, sexual, and sometimes psychological harm as well. " The caveat that I have to express is that circumcision has not, and will never be part of our culture. Who ever want to do it is free to do so without involving the community. But if you get circumcised, know that they are amputating your foreskin. One should be informed that the sensitivity that you feel, not only in that skin, but the surrounding tissues, including the glands, will be drastically affected and diminished. Researchers also allege that not only are the nerve endings gone with the foreskin, but remaining nerve endings are severed, blood flow permanently disrupted, and the shaft skin will be tight, possibly painfully tight. Several months after this, the sensitivity remaining will begin to fade, and will continue to do so. The warning to our people is, " Circumcision will damage your penis and your sexual ability; that's what it does " . Even the British Medical Association has reported that " there is significant disagreement about whether circumcision is overall a beneficial, neutral or harmful procedure. At present, the medical literature on the health, including sexual health, implications of circumcision is contradictory, and often subject to claims of bias in research. " [ ----------------------------------------------------------------- On 8/18/08, nmatunda <matunda@...> wrote: Wananchi, I am watching this debate from afar! It is a replay of the same (albeit with a large audience and broader attention) we had back in the 1990s when it was first suggested that the " male cut " can reduce the chances of HIV/AIDS - note: reduce and NOT immunize. Some of us (vocal as ever) then suggested that people be open-minded when discussing this; and that those from groups that did this as a routine rite of passage be sensitive to those that do not! You should have seen the fireworks then! How I wish for the archives from those days of kenya-net, perhaps 15 years ago! Yes, it has been 15 years in the the making; the debate, that is! And look where we are: almost on the same spot as we were then. Raila is the right messenger for this cause, given the political clout he wields and considering he comes from where the cut doesn't happen as a matter of routine! No longer would others (those from outside) be termed chauvinists because they suggest male circumcision. Let the drama play; but we also know a thing or so about social change: it is slow and, at times, generations MUST die off before a specific change becomes a norm. Have a chauvinist-free debate of open-mindedness. Matunda Nyanchama In africa-oped , " Margaret Gichuki " <Wams2006@...> wrote: Haiya............Is that the PM speaking? I think he needs to apologize to the uncut communities maraone.I watched the clip 3 times to believe what the papers reported. And for once, Uncle Tom Ojanga is on the other side.Wah, wah, wah...Jowa! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3fj8npynUA & eurl=http://www.eastandard.net/ On 8/18/08, Kuria-Mwangi kjmwangi@... wrote: Tom, You also seems pissed off like this neighbor: Dearests, In just about 6 months flat as our " Prime Minister " , Raila Odinga has managed to: - PISS OFF COASTARIANS BY POKING HIS NOSE IN THE COAST-JIMBO-OWNED KENYA PORTS AUTHORITY; PISS OFF LUOS, POKOTS AND TURKANAS BY ADVOCATING FOR MALE CIRCUMCISION WHILE USING HIS POT-HEAD SON'S MARRIAGE TO A KIKUYU AS THE STANDARD OF MEASURE FOR LUO MARITAL SUCCESS; PISS OFF BOTH THE KALENJINS AND THE MAASAIS WITH HIS BLIND INTERFERENCE IN THE MAU FOREST QUAGMIRE; PISS OFF ZIMBABWEANS, SOUTH AFRICANS AND AFRICAN NATIONALISTS BY AIRING ZIMBABWE'S DIRTY LAUNDRY IN INTERNATIONAL SUNSHINE; Mark you, all these pi.s.s.ing off incidents are happening when Lake , the main bread and butter for the Luos, is being labeled one of the biggest ecological disasters in the world. Obviously, we are onto something big come 2012. Loyally, ________________________________ Wuod Nyar Boro Rock Creek Park Neighborhood Northwest, Washington DC email: wuodnyarboro@... On 8/18/08, asego2002 asego2002@... wrote: my cut-o-map tells me that most of the world is un-cut. so what is all this thing about the cut when its actually not the norm ? the only country in east africa in which most tribes do the cut is kenya. infact only the wagisu (bukusus of uganda) do the cut in uganda. the obsession with " cut or no cut " has been a lie peddled over the last 45 years to deny the un-cut a place at the seat of power. there are more un-cut-ted tools that got the population of the world to 6,602,224,175 than cut-ted ones... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Moto umewaka leo.Na moto ni kazi ya Nd. Otieno Mbare............................ Nd.Matunda said in his mail below: ''Have a chauvinist-free debate of open-mindedness.'' Swali.How are we doing so far????? Wams ======================================================= This is my position on the current debate on circumcision! Please, disseminate! Otieno Mbare -- ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.abo.fi/~ombare/Kasipul-Kabondo%20Musiikki.wma ---------------------------------------------------------- Otieno Mbare, D.Sc.(Econ. & B.Adm) Åbo Akademi University Institute for Advance Management Systems Research Lemminkäinengatan 14 Office location: Kulturhuset, Fabriksgatan 7A 1 Tel. +358 2 2154 976 (Off) +358 40 5341 996 http://iamsr.abo.fi Email: Otieno.Mbare@..., awachtin@... 20520 ÅBO Finland The Misleading Call for Circumcision By Otieno Mbare, PhD (Research Fellow) I would not have ventured into this sensitive debate if it did not have direct consequences for my children, the posterity of the Luo nation and other non-circumcising communities around the world. However, the debate has been fueled following a research that was carried out by some researchers in Kenya and Uganda and; consequently published in January 2008 in the BJU International. Had it not acquired political overtones that sought to authenticate an otherwise a lop-sided research whose methodology, validity, plausibility and veracity are in doubt, I would have not wasted my precious time debating it. Yet, this issue touches on the very nerves of the communities that are not practicing circumcision. It is an old time debate that has been misguidedly used to show cultural superiority and supremacy among different communities. The same argument has sadly been used to stigmatize, lower the image and undermine the culture of the Luo community. Scientific research as evidenced in the Mexico conference has rejected that line of thinking as a dead-end research. It will further give a false hope that a cure has finally arrived albeit with devastating consequences to our society. It is therefore surprising that none other than my friend Hon. Raila Odinga (no disrespect intended!), who has suffered the wrath of these cultural purists, was the one who went out prescribing the new medicine for the " uncut " . This happened a few days after receiving with his in-laws from central Kenya. I will not question Hon. Odinga's wisdom but this is a very sensitive cultural issue that a person of his standing in Luoland and Kenya in particular, cannot afford to discuss it casually they way he did. I understand people have started saying derogatively that " Luoland sasa ni kichinjoni " because the PM has said so! The endorsement for circumcision in the Luo nation is totally unacceptable! I don't intend to argue here that our culture is pure and superior. But, let me make it clear that there are certain cultural practices that need to be eradicated without legislation. Practices such as inheriting someone's wife whose husband, probably died of aids and, other promiscuous habits. These are issues that have to be addressed and develop a common position not only for one community, but for the entire society. Abstention and regular use of the condom is the sure way out of the current HIV quagmire. This is what elected leaders should be advocating instead advocating for something which is meant to demean and portray our culture as inferior! It is for this reason that most members of the community have felt provoked by an assault directed at our culture. Yet, the research is so hollow that there is no knowing whether the sample group and the control group had been subjected to a full-blown situation to validate their research finding! I do not want to dispute circumcision for those who are practicing it for it is seen as a rite of passage marking a boy's entrance into adulthood. Sometimes it was performed as a means of suppressing sexual pleasure, or used as an aid to hygiene where regular bathing was impractical. At other times, it is performed as a means of differentiating a circumcising group from their non-circumcising neighbors, as a means of discouraging masturbation, or to increase a man's attractiveness to women, or as a symbolic castration. The Luos have since used and abandoned other cultural practices that marks the passage of a boy to adulthood. We have refused to embrace circumcision for various reasons; First, circumcision is not part of our culture. It is foreign! Second, our other objection which is supported by the existing literatures and research is that circumcision changes physical sensitivity in the penis of a man. A 2007 study funded by an organization which opposes circumcision, and published in the journal BJU International, found a difference in fine touch sensitivity between men who were circumcised and those who were uncircumcised (such that circumcised men had less sensitivity to fine touch in all but one area of the penis). This same study also compared the sensitivity thresholds at various points on the penis and concluded that the most sensitive part of the uncircumcised penis was more sensitive than the most sensitive parts of the circumcised penis. The authors argue that the parts of the penis removed by circumcision represent the most sensitive parts of the penis. Similarly, in a poll conducted by an anti-circumcision organization, 61% of men who were circumcised as infants reported decreased sensation over time, which they report resulted in sexual dysfunction. And recently, a study by DaiSik Kim and Myung-Geol Pang on the " The effect of male circumcision on sexuality " found there was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings. I do not want to speculate that some high-level conspiracy has been hatched to render Luo men dysfunctional. I will simply stick to the issue which can be corroborated through the overwhelming existing body of knowledge concerning the matter at hand. Let me further buttress my argument by citing kson Paige 1978 article The Ritual of Circumcision, where she writes: " In the United States, the original reason for the surgical removal of the foreskin, or prepuce, was to control 'masturbatory insanity' (what the Luo would call, thelo-oyuma!) - the range of mental disorders that people believed were caused by the 'polluting' practice of 'self-abuse.' " And here, she describes " Self-abuse " as a terminology commonly used to describe masturbation in the 19th century. According to Paige, " treatments ranged from diet, moral exhortations, hydrotherapy, and marriage, to such drastic measures as surgery, physical restraints, frights, and punishment. But how was this conundrum conceived in the bible. Because the Luo nation have always followed the bible and what was bequeathed to them by Ramogi at Go-Kwer! The scriptures, which my late father, Jakwath Festo Mbare made his constant book of reference says that the Council of Jerusalem in Acts of the Apostles 15 addressed the issue of whether circumcision was required of new converts to Christianity. Both Simon and spoke against requiring circumcision in Gentile converts and the Council ruled that circumcision was not necessary. However, Acts 16 and many references in the Letters of show that the practice was not immediately eliminated. of Tarsus, who was said to be directly responsible for one man's circumcision in Acts 16:1-3 and who appeared to praise Jewish circumcision in Romans 3:2, said that circumcision didn't matter in 1 Corinthians 7:19 and then increasingly turned against the practice, accusing those who promoted circumcision of wanting to make a good showing in the flesh and boasting or glorying in the flesh in Galatians 6:11-13. In a later letter, Philippians 3:2, he is reported as warning Christians to beware the " mutilation " . These teachings and others reinforces the very beliefs we have upheld as a community. Finally, the American Academy of Pediatrics (1999) stated " There are anecdotal reports that penile sensation and sexual satisfaction are decreased for circumcised males " . Boyle et al. stated that " the genitally intact male has thousands of fine touch receptors and other highly erogenous nerve endings—many of which are lost to circumcision. They concluded, " Evidence has also started to accumulate that male circumcision may result in lifelong physical, sexual, and sometimes psychological harm as well. " The caveat that I have to express is that circumcision has not, and will never be part of our culture. Who ever want to do it is free to do so without involving the community. But if you get circumcised, know that they are amputating your foreskin. One should be informed that the sensitivity that you feel, not only in that skin, but the surrounding tissues, including the glands, will be drastically affected and diminished. Researchers also allege that not only are the nerve endings gone with the foreskin, but remaining nerve endings are severed, blood flow permanently disrupted, and the shaft skin will be tight, possibly painfully tight. Several months after this, the sensitivity remaining will begin to fade, and will continue to do so. The warning to our people is, " Circumcision will damage your penis and your sexual ability; that's what it does " . Even the British Medical Association has reported that " there is significant disagreement about whether circumcision is overall a beneficial, neutral or harmful procedure. At present, the medical literature on the health, including sexual health, implications of circumcision is contradictory, and often subject to claims of bias in research. " [ ----------------------------------------------------------------- On 8/18/08, nmatunda <matunda@...> wrote: Wananchi, I am watching this debate from afar! It is a replay of the same (albeit with a large audience and broader attention) we had back in the 1990s when it was first suggested that the " male cut " can reduce the chances of HIV/AIDS - note: reduce and NOT immunize. Some of us (vocal as ever) then suggested that people be open-minded when discussing this; and that those from groups that did this as a routine rite of passage be sensitive to those that do not! You should have seen the fireworks then! How I wish for the archives from those days of kenya-net, perhaps 15 years ago! Yes, it has been 15 years in the the making; the debate, that is! And look where we are: almost on the same spot as we were then. Raila is the right messenger for this cause, given the political clout he wields and considering he comes from where the cut doesn't happen as a matter of routine! No longer would others (those from outside) be termed chauvinists because they suggest male circumcision. Let the drama play; but we also know a thing or so about social change: it is slow and, at times, generations MUST die off before a specific change becomes a norm. Have a chauvinist-free debate of open-mindedness. Matunda Nyanchama In africa-oped , " Margaret Gichuki " <Wams2006@...> wrote: Haiya............Is that the PM speaking? I think he needs to apologize to the uncut communities maraone.I watched the clip 3 times to believe what the papers reported. And for once, Uncle Tom Ojanga is on the other side.Wah, wah, wah...Jowa! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3fj8npynUA & eurl=http://www.eastandard.net/ On 8/18/08, Kuria-Mwangi kjmwangi@... wrote: Tom, You also seems pissed off like this neighbor: Dearests, In just about 6 months flat as our " Prime Minister " , Raila Odinga has managed to: - PISS OFF COASTARIANS BY POKING HIS NOSE IN THE COAST-JIMBO-OWNED KENYA PORTS AUTHORITY; PISS OFF LUOS, POKOTS AND TURKANAS BY ADVOCATING FOR MALE CIRCUMCISION WHILE USING HIS POT-HEAD SON'S MARRIAGE TO A KIKUYU AS THE STANDARD OF MEASURE FOR LUO MARITAL SUCCESS; PISS OFF BOTH THE KALENJINS AND THE MAASAIS WITH HIS BLIND INTERFERENCE IN THE MAU FOREST QUAGMIRE; PISS OFF ZIMBABWEANS, SOUTH AFRICANS AND AFRICAN NATIONALISTS BY AIRING ZIMBABWE'S DIRTY LAUNDRY IN INTERNATIONAL SUNSHINE; Mark you, all these pi.s.s.ing off incidents are happening when Lake , the main bread and butter for the Luos, is being labeled one of the biggest ecological disasters in the world. Obviously, we are onto something big come 2012. Loyally, ________________________________ Wuod Nyar Boro Rock Creek Park Neighborhood Northwest, Washington DC email: wuodnyarboro@... On 8/18/08, asego2002 asego2002@... wrote: my cut-o-map tells me that most of the world is un-cut. so what is all this thing about the cut when its actually not the norm ? the only country in east africa in which most tribes do the cut is kenya. infact only the wagisu (bukusus of uganda) do the cut in uganda. the obsession with " cut or no cut " has been a lie peddled over the last 45 years to deny the un-cut a place at the seat of power. there are more un-cut-ted tools that got the population of the world to 6,602,224,175 than cut-ted ones... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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