Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Thanks Notan for all your research. Interesting articles including the chocolate. I use dark chocolate sometimes but now will increase it. You can spend all day looking at the references and trying to understand them. I am very glad I have not had an operation, seems like some combination of drugs will help, maybe even in my life time. I am doing well as long as I keep on a routine using liquids,soup, some pasta, Ensure and a lot of Coke. I walk to Mcs each morning and get a drink of Coke off the fountian, drinking the CO2 off the top many times, then finally the Coke goes down. After this at home I can have cerial with milk. Seems like the LES tightens at night so must be opened in the morning. I use Colchicine for my gout once in awhile, maybe it helps or caused the problem. This came from an article on Swallowing Disorders from eMedicine Iatrogenic oropharyngeal dysphagia Various medications, including the following, produce effects due to a decrease in cognition or as a result of the development of drug- induced myopathies: CNS depressants Antipsychotics Corticosteroids Lipid-lowering agents Colchicine Aminoglycosides Anticholinergic drugs rayme CA OC 78 > > This is a couple years old. The researches found that the amount of > proteins, calreticulin (CRT) and calsequestrin (CSQ), that store calcium > (Ca2+) and control the level of it are " significantly reduced " in the > LES of achalasia patients. This is interesting because calcium plays a > part in the contraction of smooth muscles, like the LES. It is by > hindering this action of calcium that calcium channel blockers, like > nifedipine, work to lower LES pressure. One would think that reducing > proteins that store calcium may cause an increase in the amount of free > calcium and cause the opposite effect from that seen. The author > discusses this and points out that in smooth muscle of the heart it has > been found that reducing the proteins that store calcium causes > increased action of the muscle. More research needs to be done to > confirm the findings and to find out if this points to a cause of > achalasia or just another effect from the damage caused by achalasia. > > I find this interesting because one of the theories for how neurons > become damaged in achalasia is that over distention, or chronic > distention, by food due to blockage at the LES causes it. But that > raised the question of why would there be blockage at the LES if the > neurons were not already damaged. Kind of a chicken and egg problem. If > these proteins are the cause then there is no chicken or egg problem, > calcium would cause LES blockage and would lead to the damage of the > neurons and start the cycle. There are also other possible causes of > achalasia that get around the chicken and egg problem. Other > researchers have found abnormal amounts of Interstitial cells of Cajal > (ICC) in the LES of achalasia patients. Again, it is not clear if this > change in ICCs is a cause or effect of other destruction in achalasia. > > > Reduced expression of Ca2+-regulating proteins in the upper > gastrointestinal tract of patients with achalasia > World J Gastroenterol 2006 October 7 > http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/12/6002.asp > > Reduction of interstitial cells of Cajal (ICC) associated with neuronal > nitric oxide synthase (n-NOS) in patients with achalasia. > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18070236 > > Alterations in the density of interstitial cells of Cajal in achalasia. > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18030621 > > notan > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Interesting. Thanks for the list of meds that can cause the LES to tighten. For the last 8 years because of Familial Hypercholesterolanemia I have to take Simvastating 40mg every night and morning for the rest of my life. Food for thought. I find that myself personally cannot drink anything fizzy as the gas gets trapped and the pain is through the roof if you know what I mean but I do eat peppermint chocolate to help me burp after eating, I find that it does help me but each to his/her own. Yes I have had the ectomy but the pylorus valve is now my new Les and therefore behaves in the same way as the oesophageal Les. Experts told me this. ________________________________ From: me_rayme <ray_me_99@...> achalasia Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 2:15:27 AM Subject: Re: Reduced expression of Ca2+-regulating proteins in the upper gastrointestinal tract of patients with achalasia Thanks Notan for all your research. Interesting articles including the chocolate. I use dark chocolate sometimes but now will increase it. You can spend all day looking at the references and trying to understand them. I am very glad I have not had an operation, seems like some combination of drugs will help, maybe even in my life time. I am doing well as long as I keep on a routine using liquids,soup, some pasta, Ensure and a lot of Coke. I walk to Mcs each morning and get a drink of Coke off the fountian, drinking the CO2 off the top many times, then finally the Coke goes down. After this at home I can have cerial with milk. Seems like the LES tightens at night so must be opened in the morning. I use Colchicine for my gout once in awhile, maybe it helps or caused the problem. This came from an article on Swallowing Disorders from eMedicine Iatrogenic oropharyngeal dysphagia Various medications, including the following, produce effects due to a decrease in cognition or as a result of the development of drug- induced myopathies: CNS depressants Antipsychotics Corticosteroids Lipid-lowering agents Colchicine Aminoglycosides Anticholinergic drugs rayme CA OC 78 > > This is a couple years old. The researches found that the amount of > proteins, calreticulin (CRT) and calsequestrin (CSQ), that store calcium > (Ca2+) and control the level of it are " significantly reduced " in the > LES of achalasia patients. This is interesting because calcium plays a > part in the contraction of smooth muscles, like the LES. It is by > hindering this action of calcium that calcium channel blockers, like > nifedipine, work to lower LES pressure. One would think that reducing > proteins that store calcium may cause an increase in the amount of free > calcium and cause the opposite effect from that seen. The author > discusses this and points out that in smooth muscle of the heart it has > been found that reducing the proteins that store calcium causes > increased action of the muscle. More research needs to be done to > confirm the findings and to find out if this points to a cause of > achalasia or just another effect from the damage caused by achalasia. > > I find this interesting because one of the theories for how neurons > become damaged in achalasia is that over distention, or chronic > distention, by food due to blockage at the LES causes it. But that > raised the question of why would there be blockage at the LES if the > neurons were not already damaged. Kind of a chicken and egg problem. If > these proteins are the cause then there is no chicken or egg problem, > calcium would cause LES blockage and would lead to the damage of the > neurons and start the cycle. There are also other possible causes of > achalasia that get around the chicken and egg problem. Other > researchers have found abnormal amounts of Interstitial cells of Cajal > (ICC) in the LES of achalasia patients. Again, it is not clear if this > change in ICCs is a cause or effect of other destruction in achalasia. > > > Reduced expression of Ca2+-regulating proteins in the upper > gastrointestinal tract of patients with achalasia > World J Gastroenterol 2006 October 7 > http://www.wjgnet. com/1007- 9327/12/6002. asp > > Reduction of interstitial cells of Cajal (ICC) associated with neuronal > nitric oxide synthase (n-NOS) in patients with achalasia. > http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ pubmed/18070236 > > Alterations in the density of interstitial cells of Cajal in achalasia. > http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ pubmed/18030621 > > notan > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Ray wrote: > I use Colchicine for my gout once in awhile, maybe it helps or caused > the problem. > Colchicine can cause muscle weakness. I don't know if the weakness could be just in the esophagus. Maybe, but I don't know. One area it has effect in some patients is respiratory muscle. But it makes muscles weaker so while it may lead to weak peristalsis that doesn't explain some of the spastic muscle action seen in achalasia or the aperistalsis. It can irritate nerves though, so maybe that could add to whatever else promotes the damage to nerves in achalasia. > This came from an article on Swallowing Disorders from eMedicine > > Iatrogenic oropharyngeal dysphagia > Oropharyngeal is higher in the neck that the problems in achalasia. > Various medications, including the following, produce effects due to > a decrease in cognition or as a result of the development of drug- > induced myopathies: > > CNS depressants > Antipsychotics > Corticosteroids > Lipid-lowering agents > Colchicine > Aminoglycosides > Anticholinergic drugs > All of these drugs can have effects to either nerves or muscles. Some of these effect a person like alcohol does to a drunk. They make it hard to control the body, even to swallow. The Lipid-lowing agents (think statins) in rare cases can cause muscle damage. That damage is not specific to the esophagus. BTW: some people will try to avoid using statins by using red rice yeast, but it actually contains one of the statin drugs, so if you take enough of it to have the health benefits you also still have the same health risk you would have had with the statin drug. Of all the people that use these drugs very few get achalasia, or achalasia would not be so rare. Also there are people that never use they drugs but still get achalasia. I would think most of the youngsters in this group have used very little if any of these drugs. There has to be something more to why we have it. That does not mean our medication couldn't have been a part of causing it, but there must be something more. It is also possible that these drugs or other medication have nothing to do with our achalasia. notan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 wrote: > Interesting. Thanks for the list of meds that can cause the LES to tighten. I saw a list of medications under the topic of " Iatrogenic oropharyngeal dysphagia, " but I didn't see a list of medication that cause the LES to tighten. Did I miss something? > ... I have to take Simvastating 40mg every night and morning for the rest of my life.... The main problem with statins is muscle damage not nerve damage, so I doubt there is much of a connection to achalasia or the dysfunction of other sphincters. You do need to keep an eye on muscle changes and pain though. notan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Hi Notan I take 40mg of Omeprazole (Zoton)twice daily both morning and night and have been taking them for the past 5-7 years now. I have Familial Hypercholesterolanaemia so my level is 5.7 while taking medication. So I have little choice unless I want to develop full blown heart disease. Tell me one thing that baffles me a little Notan is Familial Hypercholesterolanaemia (high levels of Cholesterol that run in families)heart disease???? I ask my GP and his answer is always vague. ________________________________ From: notan ostrich <notan_ostrich@...> achalasia Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 3:00:57 PM Subject: Re: Re: Reduced expression of Ca2+-regulating proteins in the upper gastrointestinal tract of patients with achalasia Ray wrote: > I use Colchicine for my gout once in awhile, maybe it helps or caused > the problem. > Colchicine can cause muscle weakness. I don't know if the weakness could be just in the esophagus. Maybe, but I don't know. One area it has effect in some patients is respiratory muscle.. But it makes muscles weaker so while it may lead to weak peristalsis that doesn't explain some of the spastic muscle action seen in achalasia or the aperistalsis. It can irritate nerves though, so maybe that could add to whatever else promotes the damage to nerves in achalasia. > This came from an article on Swallowing Disorders from eMedicine > > Iatrogenic oropharyngeal dysphagia > Oropharyngeal is higher in the neck that the problems in achalasia. > Various medications, including the following, produce effects due to > a decrease in cognition or as a result of the development of drug- > induced myopathies: > > CNS depressants > Antipsychotics > Corticosteroids > Lipid-lowering agents > Colchicine > Aminoglycosides > Anticholinergic drugs > All of these drugs can have effects to either nerves or muscles. Some of these effect a person like alcohol does to a drunk. They make it hard to control the body, even to swallow. The Lipid-lowing agents (think statins) in rare cases can cause muscle damage. That damage is not specific to the esophagus. BTW: some people will try to avoid using statins by using red rice yeast, but it actually contains one of the statin drugs, so if you take enough of it to have the health benefits you also still have the same health risk you would have had with the statin drug. Of all the people that use these drugs very few get achalasia, or achalasia would not be so rare. Also there are people that never use they drugs but still get achalasia. I would think most of the youngsters in this group have used very little if any of these drugs. There has to be something more to why we have it. That does not mean our medication couldn't have been a part of causing it, but there must be something more. It is also possible that these drugs or other medication have nothing to do with our achalasia. notan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 wrote: > ...is Familial Hypercholesterolanaemia (high levels of Cholesterol that run in families)heart disease???? I only have a moment to answer this right now so I can't look anything up, but from the word Hypercholesterolanaemia it only implies high cholesterol. High cholesterol is a risk factor for heart disease but does not guarantee you will get it. I don't know though if the " Familial " type means anything more regarding HD. notan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 wrote: > ... is Familial Hypercholesterolanaemia (high levels of Cholesterol that run in families)heart disease???? Ok, I'm back. I did some checking, there are different types of heart disease and the heart disease of FH is Coronary heart disease, or Cardiovascular disease. Which are the types you would expect from high cholesterol. Untreated FH would almost certainly lead to HD. With treatment it is unclear how long you put off HD. It will depend on other factors, such as, if you are heterozygous or homozygous (unlikely), the age treatment is started and all the usual suspects for HD. It does look like you have a very high risk for it if you don't have it. I also have some wonderful genes. In my case they cause hypertriglyceridemia. I once had my triglycerides at 1600. That and diabetes and high blood pressure, I have some idea of what you are going through. What are the chances that I won't die from a heart attack or stroke? Well if my IgG falls lower as I age I suppose I could die from some common infection first. I don't think this body was made for a long haul. And there are no herbs or supplements that are going to change my genes. None of this is going to mess with today though. I am busy with life now. notan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 That's a rather generic assessment, indicting many classes of drugs with few specifics. One could also say, " Going to Mcs everyday and having a 'supersize diet' is going to do wonders for your health. " (most of their food is puke-able. this aspect is very true.) > > > > This is a couple years old. The researches found that the amount of > > proteins, calreticulin (CRT) and calsequestrin (CSQ), that store > calcium > > (Ca2+) and control the level of it are " significantly reduced " in > the > > LES of achalasia patients. This is interesting because calcium > plays a > > part in the contraction of smooth muscles, like the LES. It is by > > hindering this action of calcium that calcium channel blockers, > like > > nifedipine, work to lower LES pressure. One would think that > reducing > > proteins that store calcium may cause an increase in the amount of > free > > calcium and cause the opposite effect from that seen. The author > > discusses this and points out that in smooth muscle of the heart it > has > > been found that reducing the proteins that store calcium causes > > increased action of the muscle. More research needs to be done to > > confirm the findings and to find out if this points to a cause of > > achalasia or just another effect from the damage caused by > achalasia. > > > > I find this interesting because one of the theories for how neurons > > become damaged in achalasia is that over distention, or chronic > > distention, by food due to blockage at the LES causes it. But that > > raised the question of why would there be blockage at the LES if > the > > neurons were not already damaged. Kind of a chicken and egg > problem. If > > these proteins are the cause then there is no chicken or egg > problem, > > calcium would cause LES blockage and would lead to the damage of > the > > neurons and start the cycle. There are also other possible causes > of > > achalasia that get around the chicken and egg problem. Other > > researchers have found abnormal amounts of Interstitial cells of > Cajal > > (ICC) in the LES of achalasia patients. Again, it is not clear if > this > > change in ICCs is a cause or effect of other destruction in > achalasia. > > > > > > Reduced expression of Ca2+-regulating proteins in the upper > > gastrointestinal tract of patients with achalasia > > World J Gastroenterol 2006 October 7 > > http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/12/6002.asp > > > > Reduction of interstitial cells of Cajal (ICC) associated with > neuronal > > nitric oxide synthase (n-NOS) in patients with achalasia. > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18070236 > > > > Alterations in the density of interstitial cells of Cajal in > achalasia. > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18030621 > > > > notan > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Hi Notan Familial as in Familial Hypercholesterolanaemia means high levels that run in families i:e siblings, parents, their siblings and their parents. ________________________________ From: notan ostrich <notan_ostrich@...> achalasia Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 4:52:29 PM Subject: Re: Re: Reduced expression of Ca2+-regulating proteins in the upper gastrointestinal tract of patients with achalasia wrote: > ...is Familial Hypercholesterolana emia (high levels of Cholesterol that run in families)heart disease???? I only have a moment to answer this right now so I can't look anything up, but from the word Hypercholesterolana emia it only implies high cholesterol. High cholesterol is a risk factor for heart disease but does not guarantee you will get it. I don't know though if the " Familial " type means anything more regarding HD. notan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Hi Notan Yes part of the 5.7 reading for my Cholesterol is Triglyceraides.. Have spoken to my father and some of his siblings (those that are still alive) and all have high levels of Cholesterol, all suffer Angina and all suffer with Diabetes. Bummer eh. Thanks as always for the info. ________________________________ From: notan ostrich <notan_ostrich@...> achalasia Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 9:52:39 PM Subject: Re: Re: Reduced expression of Ca2+-regulating proteins in the upper gastrointestinal tract of patients with achalasia wrote: > ... is Familial Hypercholesterolana emia (high levels of Cholesterol that run in families)heart disease???? Ok, I'm back. I did some checking, there are different types of heart disease and the heart disease of FH is Coronary heart disease, or Cardiovascular disease. Which are the types you would expect from high cholesterol. Untreated FH would almost certainly lead to HD. With treatment it is unclear how long you put off HD. It will depend on other factors, such as, if you are heterozygous or homozygous (unlikely), the age treatment is started and all the usual suspects for HD. It does look like you have a very high risk for it if you don't have it. I also have some wonderful genes. In my case they cause hypertriglyceridemi a. I once had my triglycerides at 1600. That and diabetes and high blood pressure, I have some idea of what you are going through. What are the chances that I won't die from a heart attack or stroke? Well if my IgG falls lower as I age I suppose I could die from some common infection first. I don't think this body was made for a long haul. And there are no herbs or supplements that are going to change my genes. None of this is going to mess with today though. I am busy with life now. notan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 wrote: > Hi Notan > Familial as in Familial Hypercholesterolanaemia means high levels that run in families i:e siblings, parents, their siblings and their parents. > Yes. Sometimes things are more than the words in the name suggest. I didn't know if it was limited to high cholesterol in the family, as the name suggests, or if it was more of a syndrome. That was why I wanted more time to look it up, which I did for the second message. notan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Steve Guess you are one of the ones biased against people like me who do want an operation. " One could also say, " Going to Mcs everyday and having a 'supersize diet' is going to do wonders for your health. " (most of their food is puke-able. this aspect is very true.) " Not sure what puke-able means. I go for the Coke ONLY ONLY it helps me tremendously. Maybe you should try it! It started last spring when after a quarter cup of coffee it came up, then later the CO2 off the top of Coke made the LES shrink so I could swallow. I have stopped eating at Mcs in 1996 when I had a bypass. Personally I used to like egg mcmuffins and still do. rayme > > > > > > This is a couple years old. The researches found that the amount of > > > proteins, calreticulin (CRT) and calsequestrin (CSQ), that store > > calcium > > > (Ca2+) and control the level of it are " significantly reduced " in > > the > > > LES of achalasia patients. This is interesting because calcium > > plays a > > > part in the contraction of smooth muscles, like the LES. It is by > > > hindering this action of calcium that calcium channel blockers, > > like > > > nifedipine, work to lower LES pressure. One would think that > > reducing > > > proteins that store calcium may cause an increase in the amount of > > free > > > calcium and cause the opposite effect from that seen. The author > > > discusses this and points out that in smooth muscle of the heart it > > has > > > been found that reducing the proteins that store calcium causes > > > increased action of the muscle. More research needs to be done to > > > confirm the findings and to find out if this points to a cause of > > > achalasia or just another effect from the damage caused by > > achalasia. > > > > > > I find this interesting because one of the theories for how neurons > > > become damaged in achalasia is that over distention, or chronic > > > distention, by food due to blockage at the LES causes it. But that > > > raised the question of why would there be blockage at the LES if > > the > > > neurons were not already damaged. Kind of a chicken and egg > > problem. If > > > these proteins are the cause then there is no chicken or egg > > problem, > > > calcium would cause LES blockage and would lead to the damage of > > the > > > neurons and start the cycle. There are also other possible causes > > of > > > achalasia that get around the chicken and egg problem. Other > > > researchers have found abnormal amounts of Interstitial cells of > > Cajal > > > (ICC) in the LES of achalasia patients. Again, it is not clear if > > this > > > change in ICCs is a cause or effect of other destruction in > > achalasia. > > > > > > > > > Reduced expression of Ca2+-regulating proteins in the upper > > > gastrointestinal tract of patients with achalasia > > > World J Gastroenterol 2006 October 7 > > > http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/12/6002.asp > > > > > > Reduction of interstitial cells of Cajal (ICC) associated with > > neuronal > > > nitric oxide synthase (n-NOS) in patients with achalasia. > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18070236 > > > > > > Alterations in the density of interstitial cells of Cajal in > > achalasia. > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18030621 > > > > > > notan > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 I am NOT biased. You may have all the surgery you like. It's your body, after all. I've been sliced/diced/ripped-open and injected. I let the doctors have their way with me, and the result is a TIGHTER LES, and MORE pain, which can be treated MORE effectively and simply without surgery or major side effects. Just guess what treatment that is? Then the " bias " will REALLY start coming! Why should I want some very invasive removal of my esophagus, an operation that has a high probability for serious surgical risks? That's not bias, but sound rational judgment. Carbonated beverages containing (CO2) make burping and belching. Coke sucks. In my experience CO2 has had NO effect on loosening of the LES pressure. and CA++ channel blockers and nifedine did absolutely nothing. > > > > > > > > This is a couple years old. The researches found that the > amount of > > > > proteins, calreticulin (CRT) and calsequestrin (CSQ), that > store > > > calcium > > > > (Ca2+) and control the level of it are " significantly reduced " > in > > > the > > > > LES of achalasia patients. This is interesting because calcium > > > plays a > > > > part in the contraction of smooth muscles, like the LES. It is > by > > > > hindering this action of calcium that calcium channel blockers, > > > like > > > > nifedipine, work to lower LES pressure. One would think that > > > reducing > > > > proteins that store calcium may cause an increase in the amount > of > > > free > > > > calcium and cause the opposite effect from that seen. The > author > > > > discusses this and points out that in smooth muscle of the > heart it > > > has > > > > been found that reducing the proteins that store calcium causes > > > > increased action of the muscle. More research needs to be done > to > > > > confirm the findings and to find out if this points to a cause > of > > > > achalasia or just another effect from the damage caused by > > > achalasia. > > > > > > > > I find this interesting because one of the theories for how > neurons > > > > become damaged in achalasia is that over distention, or chronic > > > > distention, by food due to blockage at the LES causes it. But > that > > > > raised the question of why would there be blockage at the LES > if > > > the > > > > neurons were not already damaged. Kind of a chicken and egg > > > problem. If > > > > these proteins are the cause then there is no chicken or egg > > > problem, > > > > calcium would cause LES blockage and would lead to the damage > of > > > the > > > > neurons and start the cycle. There are also other possible > causes > > > of > > > > achalasia that get around the chicken and egg problem. Other > > > > researchers have found abnormal amounts of Interstitial cells > of > > > Cajal > > > > (ICC) in the LES of achalasia patients. Again, it is not clear > if > > > this > > > > change in ICCs is a cause or effect of other destruction in > > > achalasia. > > > > > > > > > > > > Reduced expression of Ca2+-regulating proteins in the upper > > > > gastrointestinal tract of patients with achalasia > > > > World J Gastroenterol 2006 October 7 > > > > http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/12/6002.asp > > > > > > > > Reduction of interstitial cells of Cajal (ICC) associated with > > > neuronal > > > > nitric oxide synthase (n-NOS) in patients with achalasia. > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18070236 > > > > > > > > Alterations in the density of interstitial cells of Cajal in > > > achalasia. > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18030621 > > > > > > > > notan > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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