Re: Dr. Vankonyeburg & Dr. Nass a question

[Guest guest]

Rich,

Please post the set of questions that you ask to determine etiology.

No need to apologize for the length of your posts, what you have written is

very interesting.

Barb

<< I

have

a set of questions that I ask to try to do this. I'll post them if

there is interest. I'm sorry that my posts are so long.

Rich >>

[Guest guest]

Steve,

Thanks for the welcome.

You asked if I am describing CFS in general or a subset of it. My

intent with the metabolic pathogenesis hypothesis for CFS is to

deal with CFS in general. This approach is the only one I have found

that can explain why people have generally the same symptoms, but

still have lots of differences in onset, indicators, and treatment

responses. The pathogenesis model is supposed to include everybody.

The various subsets each have their own etiological hypotheses, such

as the reduced glutathione depletion hypothesis suggested by Dr.

Cheney and Dr. Bounous, the hypercoagulability hypothesis of Dr.

Berg,

the excess phosphate reabsorption hypothesis of Dr. St. Amand, etc.

I

think there will be more etiological hypotheses developed, because

the

population of pwcs is a " mixed bag. " One size does not fit all, in

terms of etiologies.

Concerning the efficacy of whey protein and kutapressin, all I know

is

what I hear from sources such as Dr. Cheney's talks and from pwcs,

and

it sounds like they are beneficial to many pwcs, but not all. I think

this goes back to what their different etiologies are. Concerning

carnitine, there are reports in the peer-reviewed literature

indicating that many pwcs are low in carnitine and that they benefit

from supplementing it. I would like to see a correlation of the

benefit of carnitine with whether the pwc is high in citrate, since I

believe that high citrate indicates a partial blockade in the Krebs

cycle, and I suspect that carnitine wouldn't help much in this case.

The reason is that carnitine ushers fatty acids into the

mitochondria.

The then undergo beta oxidation and are metabolized by the Krebs

cycle. If the Krebs cycle has a partial blockade, I don't think

bringing in more fatty acids is going to boost the ATP production

much. But this idea isn't tested.

I haven't heard much about the ATP/GTH shots. I wonder how long any

positive effects last.

On antibiotics and antivirals, I will pretty much defer to others. I

prefer boosting the natural immune system, but it may be that if a

pathogen is firmly entrenched, it is necessary to go after it

directly, in addition to strengthening the immune system, so that it

can hopefully eventually take over from the antibiotics or

antivirals,

so the pwc doesn't have to stay on them indefinitely. But I think

this issue is still unresolved. Hopefully the use of the

nondenatured

whey protein products, together with supplementing other things

needed

by the immune system, such as Vitamin C, Vitamin A, zinc and

selenium,

by many pwcs will show whether this approach will work for the long

term.

I guess that one of my main messages is that it's really important to

try to determine what your etiology is if you are a pwc. If you

aren't able to do this, you are faced with using a " shotgun " approach

to treatment, which is inefficient and costly, and leads to lots of

frustration. Are we in a position to determine etiologies? Probably

not for everybody, but I think we can narrow it down for many. I

have

a set of questions that I ask to try to do this. I'll post them if

there is interest. I'm sorry that my posts are so long.

Rich

>

>

> Do you both believe that whey products and kutapressin are

effective

in the treatment of CFS. To what extent do you recommend treating the

underlying infection with ABXs or anti-virals (do you have any

specific anti virals that you would recommend). Are there any other

amino acids that you advocate & do you use L-carnatine in treatment.

What about ATP/GTH shots. Finally do you think you are describing a

subset of CFS or CFS in general.

>

> Thanks for join this list. I hope you guys will stick around.

> Steve

[Guest guest]

Yes, I am very interested in your set of questions, Rich.

Thanks,

vankonynenburg1@... wrote:

> Steve,

>

> Thanks for the welcome.

>

> You asked if I am describing CFS in general or a subset of it. My

> intent with the metabolic pathogenesis hypothesis for CFS is to

> deal with CFS in general. This approach is the only one I have found

> that can explain why people have generally the same symptoms, but

> still have lots of differences in onset, indicators, and treatment

> responses. The pathogenesis model is supposed to include everybody.

>

> The various subsets each have their own etiological hypotheses, such

> as the reduced glutathione depletion hypothesis suggested by Dr.

> Cheney and Dr. Bounous, the hypercoagulability hypothesis of Dr.

> Berg,

> the excess phosphate reabsorption hypothesis of Dr. St. Amand, etc.

> I

> think there will be more etiological hypotheses developed, because

> the

> population of pwcs is a " mixed bag. " One size does not fit all, in

> terms of etiologies.

>

> Concerning the efficacy of whey protein and kutapressin, all I know

> is

> what I hear from sources such as Dr. Cheney's talks and from pwcs,

> and

> it sounds like they are beneficial to many pwcs, but not all. I think

> this goes back to what their different etiologies are. Concerning

> carnitine, there are reports in the peer-reviewed literature

> indicating that many pwcs are low in carnitine and that they benefit

> from supplementing it. I would like to see a correlation of the

> benefit of carnitine with whether the pwc is high in citrate, since I

> believe that high citrate indicates a partial blockade in the Krebs

> cycle, and I suspect that carnitine wouldn't help much in this case.

> The reason is that carnitine ushers fatty acids into the

> mitochondria.

> The then undergo beta oxidation and are metabolized by the Krebs

> cycle. If the Krebs cycle has a partial blockade, I don't think

> bringing in more fatty acids is going to boost the ATP production

> much. But this idea isn't tested.

>

> I haven't heard much about the ATP/GTH shots. I wonder how long any

> positive effects last.

>

> On antibiotics and antivirals, I will pretty much defer to others. I

> prefer boosting the natural immune system, but it may be that if a

> pathogen is firmly entrenched, it is necessary to go after it

> directly, in addition to strengthening the immune system, so that it

> can hopefully eventually take over from the antibiotics or

> antivirals,

> so the pwc doesn't have to stay on them indefinitely. But I think

> this issue is still unresolved. Hopefully the use of the

> nondenatured

> whey protein products, together with supplementing other things

> needed

> by the immune system, such as Vitamin C, Vitamin A, zinc and

> selenium,

> by many pwcs will show whether this approach will work for the long

> term.

>

> I guess that one of my main messages is that it's really important to

> try to determine what your etiology is if you are a pwc. If you

> aren't able to do this, you are faced with using a " shotgun " approach

> to treatment, which is inefficient and costly, and leads to lots of

> frustration. Are we in a position to determine etiologies? Probably

> not for everybody, but I think we can narrow it down for many. I

> have

> a set of questions that I ask to try to do this. I'll post them if

> there is interest. I'm sorry that my posts are so long.

>

> Rich

>

> -