Re: Overactive immune system, TF, and 'Pro

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/27/00 1:09:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, luke@...

writes:

<< The problem then becomes: " What can we do about it? " Which

brings us

first to Transfer Factor. Transfer factor is basically a highly

concentrated form of Th1 cytokines. Our helper T cells are issuing

instructions to the killer T cells to target pathogens that

aren't

there. >>

Luke, thank you for writing all of this. So, are the cfids people who never

get sick with flus and colds on the TH1 side or TH2 side?

[Guest guest]

Luke - good post on a topic that is one of my hobby-horses (and Patti too

amongst others!). I don't know whether you got your info from Konlee, but

if not, check out his site http://www.execpc.com/~keephope/ and select

report 18 which is entirely devoted to this topic. I have made a few

lifestyle changes which I am sure have improved my TH1-ness...

As we all know though, immunity is incredibly, mind-bogglingly comlex, and

there are sure to be complicating factors which mean IMHO we should not

blindly push to TH1 without considering other factors - the main one being

that it is probably one of our infections that is pushing us to TH2, and we

obviously should not reduce TH2 to the point that we lose it. As I

understand it, the TH1/TH2 ratio is normally a time-determined change in

the course of an infection - early in an infection we start with one set of

weapons, and in the normal case as we progress in fighting it the body

changes its weapons, via cytokines as messages, thus moving us from Th1 to

Th2 or vice versa, plus a host of other transitionis. This leaves open the

question " where should we be in this transition if we have a PERMANENT

infection? " . I think this fundamental fact explains a lot of our disrupted

immune system problems - when we have a long term infection which has the

" strength " or other characteristics of an acute infection - this pushing

the immune responses all over the place, and causing much of it to be

inappropriate because there is none of the usual responses with

time. ????!! ...My theory anyway!

Things that I understand cause " excess TH2 " include some which are easy to

change, including:

1) consumption of too much high glycemic index foods like sugars, grain

flours, potatoes (in particular potatoes for some reason).

2) excess ratio of trans-fatty acids to " good fatty acids " . This can be

improved by reducing consumption of fried, heated fats and most commercial

(hydrogenated) oils, and replacing with or increasing use of

mono-unsaturated fats like virgin olive oil, and with fish oils high in

Omega-3's and especially DHA.

Other things that move towards TH1 that I remember include:

3) L-glutamine - lots - like 20g a day.

4) a cocktail of pro-biotics like acidophillis - my memory is shaky here

but I htink Konlee has mentioned that large doses of even dead

lactobacillus etc is fantastic for the gut and pushing in a TH1

direction. Jarrow were going to make a supplement specially for this

purpose and have probably done it by now.

5) DHEA, Neem, exercise etc - I even remember beer being suggested!

I agree with you that glutathione seems to crop up everywhere (not just Dr

Cheney!) so is probably pivotal in this.

You mentioned immunopro containing immunoglobulins - these are definitely

associated with the humoral TH2 side of things - antibodies are the central

memory part of a TH2 response. But as always, I am sure that it is not so

simple as saying that because immunoglobulins are part of TH2 that they are

harmful or even that adding more would necessarily move us to TH2. One

small strange response in myself is that as I have improved in every way

over the last 18months, the only immunoglobulin (IGG) that has reduced in

me is my IGG3 whcih was already below normal baseline. It is now VERY low

and this is pity because I had hoped it might increase. Seems that the

more I go to TH1 the more I suppress my already minimal IGG3.

Can you point me to a reference for the " 400% NK function increase due to

immunopro " fact?

And thanks for your post with the TF info - I am gradually catching up.

May our research get us somewhere!

n

At 05:59 28/04/00 , you wrote:

>I'v been reading up on immunology and what it means when we say we

>have an " overactive " immune system in CFIDS. The immune

>system is

>pretty complex, and my expertise is quite limited, but there are a

>couple of basic ideas which will help to understand what is going on

>with us.

>

>There are two " arms " of the immune system. Both arms use

>helper T

>cells (CD4s) to give the alert as to what kind of invader to attack,

>and killer T cells (CD8s) as the soldiers in the attack.

>

> Darga MD states:

>

> " Two different methods exist by which the body fights infections:

>humoral immunity (Th2) results in the production of antibodies to

>neutralize foreign invaders outside of the cells, while cellular

>immunity (Th1) directs Killer T-cells (CD8) to attack microorganisms

>or abnormal cells at the sites of infection inside the cells. "

>

>So we have these two arms of the immune system, one for killing

>invaders inside the cells, one optimised for killing invaders outside

>the cells. The type of immune disregulation found in CFIDS is an

>upregulation in Th2 (extracellular) immunity. Our helper T cells,

>the CD4's, are constantly pumping out messenger molecules called

>cytokines (antigens) that alert our bodies that we are under attack.

>One big problem in CFIDS is that we are trapped in the Th2 state,

>sending out the alarm for invaders that aren't there. While this

>arm

>of our immune system that protects against extracellular infection is

>in overdrive, the type of pathogens that we have problems with are

>primarily intracellular infections i.e. HHV6, CMV, C. Pneumonia, and

>mycoplasma. This shift in emphasis in the immune system is not

>unique to CFIDS. The failure of the Th1 arm of the immune system and

>an overactive Th2 arm is implicated in a wide variety of chronic

>illnesses. These include AIDS, CFIDS, Candidiasis, Multiple

>allergies, Multiple Chemical Sensitivities (MCS), viral hepatitis,

>Gulf War Syndrome (GWS) and cancer.

>

>The problem then becomes: " What can we do about it? " Which

>brings us

>first to Transfer Factor. Transfer factor is basically a highly

>concentrated form of Th1 cytokines. Our helper T cells are issuing

>instructions to the killer T cells to target pathogens that

>aren't

>there. The transfer factor provides our killer T cells with the

>information they need to target virus infected cells. Viruses that

>have been proliferating in our system largely because our bodies are

>mistakenly going after the wrong invaders. Not only that, the Th2

>cytokines actually increase the replication rates of some viruses. So

>PWC's receive benefit not only from reducing the viral load of

>active

>pathogens, TF is also is effective in shifting the balance from Th2

>to Th1 immunity. The downside is that this process takes several

>months and is fairly expensive, the upside is that many patients

>improve while using this therapy.

>

>The question remains: " What causes this shift from Th1 to Th2 in

>the

>first place? " This brings us back to our old pal Glutathione,

>which

>we have been discussing at length on this thread. For those new to

>the discussion, glutathione is the primary active ingredient in

>Immunopro.

>

> JD et al reports:

>

> " By using three different methods to deplete glutathione from T

>cell

>transgenic and conventional mice and studying in vivo and/or in vitro

>responses to three distinct antigens, we show that glutathione levels

>in antigen-presenting cells (helper T Cells) determine whether Th1 or

>Th2 response patterns predominate. " (1).

>1. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1998 Mar 17;95(6):3071-6

>

>In other words, low glutathione levels are perhaps the critical

>factor in what causes this shift in the first place. And Dr. Cheney

>states that in over 3000 cases of CFS he has treated, he has never

>seen one that did not test low for Glutathione. So the Immunopro may

>actually turn out to be a better way to target viruses than Transfer

>Factor.

>

>This is all in addition to the fact that glutathione is a powerful

>inhibitor of viral reproduction inside our cells and increases NK

>activity by 400%. NK cells could be called our first line of defense

>against virus infected cells and their effectiveness is enhanced by

>this switch from Th2 to Th1 states as well. Add this to the well

>known detoxing effects and the fact that Immunopro is about 15%

>immunoglobulins, the argument for taking it looks pretty strong.

>Immunoglobulins is another word for antigens. I don't know if these

>antigens favor Th1 or Th2 cytokine expression, but as they say on the

>stock discussion boards, I'm long on Immunopro.

>

>Luke

>

>

>

>

>

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>This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

>other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

>discussed here, please consult your doctor.

n

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