More on B6, WAS: New to the group

February 3, 2012

First, in these B50, B100 and B150 types of complexes not all of the Bs

are measured in micrograms (µg or mcg). Folic B9, cobalamin B12, and

biotin B7 are measured in mcg. Others, including B6 are usually measured

in milligrams (mg). A lot of people don't notice this and that they are

getting a thousand times more B6 than B12 in these kinds of complexes.

The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) of B12 is 2-3 mcg while the RDA

of B6 is 1-2 mg. Put another way typically a person needs about 600

times more B6 than B12 (300 if you go by DV). So why the 50s, 100s and

150s? Because people like round numbers and they like to think things

are " balanced " . The % DV in these complexes is allover the place for the

different Bs. Those numbers are not about ideal doses, or balance they

are about marketing. Not about being the best products they can be but

about being the products that sells the most.

Second, B6 is not the only B that can be toxic. B3 can certainly cause

problems. If people are taking a niacin medication for cholesterol they

definitely need to be careful about taking other large doses of B3. Is

B6 safe at 50mcg? Many would say yes and I have already covered this. It

is safe for most people people but taking a 50mcg dose of B6 is not

always a good idea. Some governing bodies agree:

European Community Scientific Committee on Food: 50mg harmful, 25mg safe

limit

Expert Group on Vitamins and Minerals of the Food Standard Agency UK:

10mg safe limit.

Australia and New Zealand: recommended upper limit 50mg.

The US FDA puts a recommended upper limit at 100 mg. But, the US body

that set the recommendation excluded studies by Dalton and Dalton that

reported toxic effects in doses around 100mg. Other countries have used

the studies by Dalton and Dalton in setting their limits. One of the

reason the US excluded their study is because the subjects in the study

may have been getting other sources of B6 supplementation than the ones

they reported for study. However, this is exactly why setting a dose at

100mg or even 50mg may not be safe. People can easily get other sources

of B6 without even knowing it. Those who take a B complex vitamin may

also take other supplements, knowingly or unknowingly. Not everyone

studies the ingredient lists on their supplements or compares them to

the others they take. Consider a woman with achalasia taking the following:

B50 complex, 50mg B6, because she was told Bs could be good for achalasia.

's Nerve Factors, 25mg of B6, because she was told that stress is

bad for achalasia and this is suppose to support relaxation.

GNLD NeoLife Stress 30™ Vitality Pack Supplement, 60mg of B6, (more in

this than her B50 supplement) because it is " scientifically formulated

to meet the needs of a stressful lifestyle. "

Vitamin Shoppe Skin-Hair-Nails: 10mg of B6, because her hair was falling

out.

GNC Women's Ultra Mega® Energy and Metabolism, 50 mg of B6, because she

feels she needs more energy.

Xtend-Life Total Balance Women's, 8mg of B6, because it " may help ...

hormone levels... PMS ... menopause... causes of aging. "

Centrum® Women Under 50 multivitamin, 2mg of B6, Just to be sure.

5-hour ENERGY® drink, 40 mg B6, because by lunch she needed a pick-me-up.

Add to that the B6 in all her food for the day and she could be at 250

mg/day of B6 but only count the B6 in the B50. Can you see why Dalton

and Dalton may be relevant? Another thing about Dalton and Dalton is

that their study lasted longer than some of the studies that didn't find

problems with B6 and the subjects that were found to have problems in

Dalton and Dalton had been taking the dose of B6 for longer than those

other studies ran. Better studies are needed.

You can read about the decision to exclude the Dalton and Dalton study here:

National Academies Press

Dietary Reference Intakes for Thiamin, Riboflavin, Niacin, Vitamin B6,

Folate, Vitamin B12, Pantothenic Acid, Biotin, and Choline

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=6015 & page=185

You can read the abstract from Dalton and Dalton here:

Characteristics of pyridoxine overdose neuropathy syndrome.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3630649

My point is that while a number of people in our support group may

benefit from taking B vitamins and the levels in B50 complexes are

probably safe for most of them, there may be someone in the group that

it is not safe for. Also if we suggest that 50mg of B6 is safe we should

be clear that people need to read labels and see how much they are

getting from other sources.

notan

February 3, 2012

Notan, I'm a nutritionist and all I can say is amen, amen, amen to that! I do

not understand doctors who recommend B50 complexes. They make no sense

biochemically and, as you point out, it is not difficult to reach very high

levels of some vitamins when everything is fortified.

> My point is that while a number of people in our support group may

> benefit from taking B vitamins and the levels in B50 complexes are

> probably safe for most of them, there may be someone in the group that

> it is not safe for. Also if we suggest that 50mg of B6 is safe we should

> be clear that people need to read labels and see how much they are

> getting from other sources.

>

> notan

>

February 4, 2012

Notan, YES! And thank you. I tend to forget that people don't think, don't

read, and take pills without research.

My mother was a big fan of Adelle , and I raised my kids in the sixties

with her advice. She's still being quoted, lol!

Thanks again for all the very good information you gift us with!

How'r the toes doing?

>

> First, in these B50, B100 and B150 types of complexes not all of the Bs

> are measured in micrograms (µg or mcg). Folic B9, cobalamin B12, and

> biotin B7 are measured in mcg. Others, including B6 are usually measured

> in milligrams (mg). A lot of people don't notice this and that they are

> getting a thousand times more B6 than B12 in these kinds of complexes.

> The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) of B12 is 2-3 mcg while the RDA

> of B6 is 1-2 mg. Put another way typically a person needs about 600

> times more B6 than B12 (300 if you go by DV). So why the 50s, 100s and

> 150s? Because people like round numbers and they like to think things

> are " balanced " . The % DV in these complexes is allover the place for the

> different Bs. Those numbers are not about ideal doses, or balance they

> are about marketing. Not about being the best products they can be but

> about being the products that sells the most.

>

> Second, B6 is not the only B that can be toxic. B3 can certainly cause

> problems. If people are taking a niacin medication for cholesterol they

> definitely need to be careful about taking other large doses of B3. Is

> B6 safe at 50mcg? Many would say yes and I have already covered this. It

> is safe for most people people but taking a 50mcg dose of B6 is not

> always a good idea. Some governing bodies agree:

>

> European Community Scientific Committee on Food: 50mg harmful, 25mg safe

> limit

> Expert Group on Vitamins and Minerals of the Food Standard Agency UK:

> 10mg safe limit.

> Australia and New Zealand: recommended upper limit 50mg.

>

> The US FDA puts a recommended upper limit at 100 mg. But, the US body

> that set the recommendation excluded studies by Dalton and Dalton that

> reported toxic effects in doses around 100mg. Other countries have used

> the studies by Dalton and Dalton in setting their limits. One of the

> reason the US excluded their study is because the subjects in the study

> may have been getting other sources of B6 supplementation than the ones

> they reported for study. However, this is exactly why setting a dose at

> 100mg or even 50mg may not be safe. People can easily get other sources

> of B6 without even knowing it. Those who take a B complex vitamin may

> also take other supplements, knowingly or unknowingly. Not everyone

> studies the ingredient lists on their supplements or compares them to

> the others they take. Consider a woman with achalasia taking the following:

>

> B50 complex, 50mg B6, because she was told Bs could be good for achalasia.

>

> 's Nerve Factors, 25mg of B6, because she was told that stress is

> bad for achalasia and this is suppose to support relaxation.

>

> GNLD NeoLife Stress 30™ Vitality Pack Supplement, 60mg of B6, (more in

> this than her B50 supplement) because it is " scientifically formulated

> to meet the needs of a stressful lifestyle. "

>

> Vitamin Shoppe Skin-Hair-Nails: 10mg of B6, because her hair was falling

> out.

>

> GNC Women's Ultra Mega® Energy and Metabolism, 50 mg of B6, because she

> feels she needs more energy.

>

> Xtend-Life Total Balance Women's, 8mg of B6, because it " may help ...

> hormone levels... PMS ... menopause... causes of aging. "

>

> Centrum® Women Under 50 multivitamin, 2mg of B6, Just to be sure.

>

> 5-hour ENERGY® drink, 40 mg B6, because by lunch she needed a pick-me-up.

>

> Add to that the B6 in all her food for the day and she could be at 250

> mg/day of B6 but only count the B6 in the B50. Can you see why Dalton

> and Dalton may be relevant? Another thing about Dalton and Dalton is

> that their study lasted longer than some of the studies that didn't find

> problems with B6 and the subjects that were found to have problems in

> Dalton and Dalton had been taking the dose of B6 for longer than those

> other studies ran. Better studies are needed.

>

> You can read about the decision to exclude the Dalton and Dalton study here:

>

> National Academies Press

> Dietary Reference Intakes for Thiamin, Riboflavin, Niacin, Vitamin B6,

> Folate, Vitamin B12, Pantothenic Acid, Biotin, and Choline

> http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=6015 & page=185

>

> You can read the abstract from Dalton and Dalton here:

>

> Characteristics of pyridoxine overdose neuropathy syndrome.

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3630649

>

> My point is that while a number of people in our support group may

> benefit from taking B vitamins and the levels in B50 complexes are

> probably safe for most of them, there may be someone in the group that

> it is not safe for. Also if we suggest that 50mg of B6 is safe we should

> be clear that people need to read labels and see how much they are

> getting from other sources.

>

> notan

>

February 5, 2012

Hi,

Maureen wrote:

>

> ... I'm a nutritionist and all I can say is amen, amen, amen to that!

> I do not understand doctors who recommend B50 complexes. ...

>

Thanks for the reply. Another thing I don't understand is why when the

US body for determining safe doses of this stuff decided 200mg might not

be safe they halved that dose for the upper limit and then let products

be sold OTC that could easily be combined unknowingly to more than

200mg. I feel the same about such things as OTC acetaminophen. How many

people have died or destroyed their, or their children's, livers with

the " safe " dose product? It is so easy to see people making mistakes

with products containing the safe doses of such things, because they

often are getting other doses from other medications or other substances

that combine to harm the liver, and some people think if one is good two

is better and twice as often even better. Or they give an adult dose to

a child. In my mind OTC doses should be far below the upper limit not

just half as was done with B6.

I have a story I think you will find interesting. Years ago I was with

two woman while working. One had sold some magic sun energy seaweed

stuff to the other. It was suppose to do all kinds of healthy things,

but you had to start with a special diet where you eat next to nothing

but the seaweed. The woman who had bought the seaweed and had been on

the diet for some time was complaining about her hair falling out. The

woman who sold it told her that was because of the " toxins " in her body

that had built up from all the " bad " food she had eaten in the past, and

those toxins were being forced out into the blood by the seaweed so her

body could be cleansed. Loosing hair normal and was a good sign the

seaweed was working and she should continue. I would have loved to have

seen a lab result showing what " toxins " would be forced out in a case

like that. No doubt it is those bad food ones of course. Not a word was

said that maybe eating little but seaweed was a shock to the body and

maybe didn't provide all the nutrients she needed for healthy hair, or

that she should confirm her new improved health with her doctor. Kind of

reminds me of when I had my first colonoscopy. I was watching the screen

and I never saw the buckets of toxins that are suppose to be hiding in

the colon. They must hide pretty good.

notan

February 7, 2012

......and my thanks also to you Notan. Thank you for putting my previous

half-baked suggestion in proper context and with proper caveats and warnings.

As ever wise counsel and extremely good advice. It is probably time for me to

take my head out of the sand about all those the Vit.Bs I'm taking.

With thanks again,

> >

> > First, in these B50, B100 and B150 types of complexes not all of the Bs

> > are measured in micrograms (µg or mcg). Folic B9, cobalamin B12, and

> > biotin B7 are measured in mcg. Others, including B6 are usually measured

> > in milligrams (mg). A lot of people don't notice this and that they are

> > getting a thousand times more B6 than B12 in these kinds of complexes.

> > The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) of B12 is 2-3 mcg while the RDA

> > of B6 is 1-2 mg. Put another way typically a person needs about 600

> > times more B6 than B12 (300 if you go by DV). So why the 50s, 100s and

> > 150s? Because people like round numbers and they like to think things

> > are " balanced " . The % DV in these complexes is allover the place for the

> > different Bs. Those numbers are not about ideal doses, or balance they

> > are about marketing. Not about being the best products they can be but

> > about being the products that sells the most.

> >

> > Second, B6 is not the only B that can be toxic. B3 can certainly cause

> > problems. If people are taking a niacin medication for cholesterol they

> > definitely need to be careful about taking other large doses of B3. Is

> > B6 safe at 50mcg? Many would say yes and I have already covered this. It

> > is safe for most people people but taking a 50mcg dose of B6 is not

> > always a good idea. Some governing bodies agree:

> >

> > European Community Scientific Committee on Food: 50mg harmful, 25mg safe

> > limit

> > Expert Group on Vitamins and Minerals of the Food Standard Agency UK:

> > 10mg safe limit.

> > Australia and New Zealand: recommended upper limit 50mg.

> >

> > The US FDA puts a recommended upper limit at 100 mg. But, the US body

> > that set the recommendation excluded studies by Dalton and Dalton that

> > reported toxic effects in doses around 100mg. Other countries have used

> > the studies by Dalton and Dalton in setting their limits. One of the

> > reason the US excluded their study is because the subjects in the study

> > may have been getting other sources of B6 supplementation than the ones

> > they reported for study. However, this is exactly why setting a dose at

> > 100mg or even 50mg may not be safe. People can easily get other sources

> > of B6 without even knowing it. Those who take a B complex vitamin may

> > also take other supplements, knowingly or unknowingly. Not everyone

> > studies the ingredient lists on their supplements or compares them to

> > the others they take. Consider a woman with achalasia taking the following:

> >

> > B50 complex, 50mg B6, because she was told Bs could be good for achalasia.

> >

> > 's Nerve Factors, 25mg of B6, because she was told that stress is

> > bad for achalasia and this is suppose to support relaxation.

> >

> > GNLD NeoLife Stress 30™ Vitality Pack Supplement, 60mg of B6, (more in

> > this than her B50 supplement) because it is " scientifically formulated

> > to meet the needs of a stressful lifestyle. "

> >

> > Vitamin Shoppe Skin-Hair-Nails: 10mg of B6, because her hair was falling

> > out.

> >

> > GNC Women's Ultra Mega® Energy and Metabolism, 50 mg of B6, because she

> > feels she needs more energy.

> >

> > Xtend-Life Total Balance Women's, 8mg of B6, because it " may help ...

> > hormone levels... PMS ... menopause... causes of aging. "

> >

> > Centrum® Women Under 50 multivitamin, 2mg of B6, Just to be sure.

> >

> > 5-hour ENERGY® drink, 40 mg B6, because by lunch she needed a pick-me-up.

> >

> > Add to that the B6 in all her food for the day and she could be at 250

> > mg/day of B6 but only count the B6 in the B50. Can you see why Dalton

> > and Dalton may be relevant? Another thing about Dalton and Dalton is

> > that their study lasted longer than some of the studies that didn't find

> > problems with B6 and the subjects that were found to have problems in

> > Dalton and Dalton had been taking the dose of B6 for longer than those

> > other studies ran. Better studies are needed.

> >

> > You can read about the decision to exclude the Dalton and Dalton study here:

> >

> > National Academies Press

> > Dietary Reference Intakes for Thiamin, Riboflavin, Niacin, Vitamin B6,

> > Folate, Vitamin B12, Pantothenic Acid, Biotin, and Choline

> > http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=6015 & page=185

> >

> > You can read the abstract from Dalton and Dalton here:

> >

> > Characteristics of pyridoxine overdose neuropathy syndrome.

> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3630649

> >

> > My point is that while a number of people in our support group may

> > benefit from taking B vitamins and the levels in B50 complexes are

> > probably safe for most of them, there may be someone in the group that

> > it is not safe for. Also if we suggest that 50mg of B6 is safe we should

> > be clear that people need to read labels and see how much they are

> > getting from other sources.

> >

> > notan

> >

>

February 7, 2012

wrote:

>

> ... My mother was a big fan of Adelle , and I raised my kids in

> the sixties with her advice. She's still being quoted, lol!

>

She is famous not only for her ideas, some which were good, but also her

inaccurate and false statements about published research.

My mother always had Prevention magazine around while I was growing up.

I wonder how many of the fad ideas from those days are still hiding in

the back of my mind pretending to be real knowledge.

> How'r the toes doing?

>

It isn't two bad. I'm not taking anything for the pain. I am suppose to

avoid full weight on the foot for two weeks though. Which is longer than

I expected.

notan

February 15, 2012

Honestly Notan, I think I would rather regurgitate my food than eat just

seaweed. While maybe it may be healthy to add to a diet, I can't imagine

thinking it should be a diet!!! It's like they say- if it sounds too good to be

true it is!!! LOL

Â

My GI told me after my last dilation that I cannot have an aspirin type product

other than acetaminophen or I will get ulcers in my E, or something to that

effect. I have always been a Tylenol fan, but it seems to be off the market or

very hard to find. Have you heard of this before? It is ok by me as it is the

only thing that has ever worked for my headaches but have also heard of people

having liver damage from too much.

Â

Sometimes I don't know what to believe.

Â

Kim A

________________________________

From: notan ostrich <notan_ostrich@...>

achalasia

Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 5:50 PM

Subject: Re: Re: More on B6, WAS: New to the group