Re: Bee venom therapy (long)

December 23, 2000

From: <paleotechnics@...>

> A friend was just over who does BVT for MS. He told me a lot about Bee

> keeping and BVT and we did a test sting. It didn't hurt much! We iced

> the area first, and I barely felt the sting. We only left it in about 3

> seconds, and there was a little pain after a while, but it really wasn't

> a big deal. He recommends that I learn more and consult with

> knowledgeable people about the meds and supps that I'm taking before

> really beginning. I'm definitely interested though, especially since it

> wasn't too painful. I get stung by wasps and yellow jackets several

> times a year, and it really hurts, so expected it to be more like that.

> If I ever get going with this I'll keep everyone posted. My only

> hesitation is that I seem to be seeing a lot of benefit from what I've

> started recently and won't know how to guage effectivness, but, that

> sort of fits in with my recent abandonment of the try one thing at a

> time approach; the subject of my next email.

E,

Aren't you using a beta blocker? If you are, you must decide to wean

yourself off before proceeding with BVT. Since there is always a slight

chance of anaphylactic shock when using bee venom, an epi pen must always be

available when stinging. Beta blockers use the same channels the epi needs

in the event (although remote) of a severe allergic reaction. Even though

your initial test sting shows that you are not allergic, BVT must be done

safely EVERY time you sting!!! As much as I would like to see someone on

this list try BVT, I also do not want anyone to take unnecessary chances. I

use BVT and have an epi pen -- never had to use it!

Personally, I think beta blockers make PWCs worse. I had an adverse

experience with Atenolol 5 years ago. I used it for a month (very low dose

1/2 of 25 Mg daily) to complement the Florinef for NMH. I became much

sicker and developed MCS while on this drug. My lungs became very

congested -- coughed up tons of mucus for a couple of hours each time I was

exposed to hairspray, perfumes, household cleaning products etc.-- never had

problems with chemical sensitivity before -- body also felt much " heavier " --

dragged myself around even more -- thought they were new CFS symptoms.

Thank God my husband made the connection to Atenolol! I noticed an

improvement in these " new " symptoms the day I stopped taking this beta

blocker. 4 years ago I was diagnosed with a regurgitating Mitral Valve, but

I do not take anything for it. So, you need to decide if you are willing

to go off the beta blocker in order to try BVT.

I strongly urge you to give BVT a try. Bee venom and all the products of

the hive have worked miracles for me! You may have read some of the posts

about my very positive experience with apitherapy. I have been using honey,

royal jelly, pollen, propolis and ester vitamin C. for four years. I began

another round of BVT 11 months ago (4 full stings every other day) and have

been in remission from CFS/FM for 4 months. I have been functioning at 100%

capacity all this time and no more crashes!!! Last week I got a head

cold -- any viral infection would normally set me back at least three

months. I was still able to bake, shop, clean, decorate the tree & house and

do tons of other stuff to prepare for Christmas -- no crashes! I haven't

been able to keep up with the posts lately -- trying to make up for lost

time, and also helping some PWCs getting started with BVT. I planned to

write an update to this list after the holidays, when I will have more time

to answer questions because I am convinced that it could help other PWC's.

Since you brought the subject up, I'm compelled to write something now.

It's almost 4:00 AM, and I've had a very full day getting ready for

Christmas. I'll just copy some of the messages I sent to this list the last

time I wrote about BVT in October and the protocol I use to help you decide.

Getting started with BVT:

Very Important -- must have epi kit nearby --my experience and what

I've read so far -- after initial test sting:

Generally for any condition, begin stinging on each side of the spine wit 2

full stings -- leave stinger in at least five minutes) at about kidney

height. Work your way up and

down the spine -- increase by 2 stings each session. Sting 3X a week (Mon.

Wed. Fri.) Cool

area to be stung with a small metal can kept in the freezer i.e.tomato

paste. The spine is a good place to start mainly because there is less

swelling. Wait about a month or two before stinging arms or legs -- more

swelling. I tried my arms after about two months -- helped with heavy arm

symptoms and numbness -- found the swelling uncomfortable. Also found neck

(brainstem) and

lower spine towards buttocks more uncomfortablein the beginning -- best to

wait a couple of months before stinging these areas. Try to concentrate

between

the shoulder and waist in the beginning. I settled on 6 stings every

other day up and down the spine for 6 mos. on my first round. For arm

/hand symptoms concentrate on the neck area. For legs sting towards the

buttocks . Helped with all symptoms, got rid of Fibromyalgia pain -- never

came back!

Energy level way up. I wake up refreshed instead of

feeling like I was hit by a truck each morning. Brain fog lifted. Required

less sleep and naps. Bladder problems gone, etc.. In the beginning

swelling a lot -- good sign -- Herxheimer reaction 2nd week about 8 hrs.

after I sting -- fever etc.

3 or 4 times lasting about 24 hrs. -- good sign -- felt good the next day,

This period is rough!

Could reduce number of stings but try not to stop -- do not want to stop the

momentum -- immune system is responding. Use Preparation H for swelling and

itching -- do not use cortisone -- do not use ibuprofen. Do not sting

near swollen areas from previous stings -- wait until the swelling goes

down -- you will notice tha swelling decreasing as you progress. I think

this is a very good start.

Some Experimental posts 10/00:

I've been using Bee Venom Therapy (using live bees) on and off for almost

four years, and I haven't developed a tolerance to it yet. Ever since I

began BVT, and using bee products (pollen, propolis, royal jelly, and honey)

I have steadily improved. Every time I begin another round of BVT, I

experience a Herxheimer reaction after one week -- fever and all symptoms

getting worse lasting 24 hours. This happens 3 or 4 times at first -- then

symptoms gradually improve and some disappear. The first symptom that

improved was my energy level, then I got rid of the FM pain and also noticed

that I woke up refreshed and did not feel like I was hit by a truck. I

started this last round of BVT in February, so I've been stinging every

other day for almost 9 months (my longest round) and am still stinging

because I think I stopped too soon the other times. Since I did not expect

BVT to be a total " cure " for CFS, I was very satisfied with the level of

improvement and resumed stinging when I relapsed. This time, I am

continuing even though I am symptom free and functioning at 100% capacity.

I don't know if it will last or not, I'm still experimenting. For me, the

proof of the pudding came this month with my period -- I always crash --

other women on this list can relate -- this month I breezed through.

I understand your skepticism -- I too would question anyone that claims to

have a " cure " for CFS. Thank you for your concern, but notice that I stated

that I am in REMISSION -- I will not say " cured " until I continue to feel

100% for a long time after I stop stinging. Right now, I'm just enjoying

feeling " normal " and if I have to sting for the rest of my life to be able

to think and function, it's OK by me! I purposely waited a long time before

I posted this news to the list because I did not want to raise anyone's

hopes.

Presently I take no medication for CFS -- just monthly B-12 shots,

probiotics,a multi vitamin, folic acid, vitamin C, pollen, propolis, royal

jelly, honey, and bee venom -- that's it! I was able to wean myself from

Florinef and abort NMH episodes in 15 minutes with 4 bee stings on my spine

in February. I have been taking thyroid medication since '91 for Grave's

Disease.

I just watched the TV program on the Learning Channel, and a woman with CFS

talked about her " cure " with BVT.

I also get my bees by mail -- 60 for $12.50. Some get theirs free from a

local beekeeper, but I prefer to buy them because they're cheap, and know

that the bees haven't been sprayed with insecticides and are disease free.

The box is smaller than a pack of cigarettes -- very convenient when

traveling. Yes, BVT is very effective for MS and a host of other diseases

and chronic illnesses. When I decided to experiment with BVT, I didn't know

if it would work for CFS. Since I had neurological, viral, bacterial,

hormonal, visual, urinary and bowel symptoms along with pain and fatigue

that mimic MS symptoms, I decided to give it a shot -- or should I say

sting! Since then I have read in an Apitherapy journal about two other PWCs

that have been helped by BVT. Last night another PWC talked about her

recovery frm CFS by using live honeybees, on the TV program I mentioned. So

far that's only four PWCs that I know about. Ask your friend with MS what

symptoms you have in common and which ones have been helped with bee venom

so far.

I have done a lot of research on bee venom and all the products from the

hive for almost four years. There is a lot of information on the internet,

and I hope that some list members will research it to fully understand

how/why bee venom is so effective in treating various chronic illnesses.

Bee venom is composed of 30 different components. The main

anti-inflammatory pharmacological components are peptides:

melittin, apamin, peptode 401(or MDC peptide) adolapin, and protease

inhibitors. Medline has lots of studies on these bee venom peptides.

Since whole bee venom is a natural product, it cannot be patented;

therefore, no pharmaceutical company is interested -- there is no money in

it for them! Besides anti-inflammatory properties, bee venom also has

powerful anti-bacterial, anti-viral, anti-fungal and anti-coagulant

properties. Studies conducted on rats and dogs indicate that it also

stimulates the pituitary to release ACTH which stimulates the adrenal glands

to produce cortisol, without the undesireable side effects of the synthetic

form.

M-H Kim, MD from the International Pain Institute, USA has been

conducting a Randomized Active Controlled Trial in Korea using Apitox (dried

bee venom in injectable form) for Osteoarthritis.

Here's what Dr.Kim has to say about bee venom:

Just why bee venom seems to diminish symptoms (most of these illnesses

are incurable) is not entirely understood. In general, say apitherapists,

bee

venom appears to stimulate the immune and endocrine systems. Bee stings

increase circulation and warm the area stung; such activity tends to remove

localized toxins. In addition, laboratory analysis of bee venom has found

that it contains components that trigger the body's anti inflammatory

defenses. Curiously enough, it also contains a potent anti inflammatory

agent of its own. In fact, according to Kim, animal studies show that bee

venom is 100 times more anti inflammatory than hydrocortisone, a steroidal

anti inflammatory drug typically used to treat arthritis. Along with its

anti

inflammatory properties, bee venom is thought to have antibacterial and

antifungal properties and is also thought to affect the transmission of

messages along the nervous system.

A lot of this stuff makes a lot of sense to me now in light of all the

research that has been conducted on CFS since I became ill six years ago. I

never expected it to work as well as it has for me. The only symptom that I

have now is dry eyes, all other symptoms are gone! I no longer need to pace

myself in order to avoid a major crash -- and I have tested my boundaries a

lot this month! That's my definition of 100% functional. Now I am

convinced that other PWCs can also be helped by using bee venom and other

bee products to assist the body to heal itself.

I buy fresh (frozen) royal jelly, propolis tincture, fresh pollen

(Willamette Valley) and honey from www.glorybee.com 1-800-456-7923. Their

prices are cheaper than anyone else I've found -- especially the fresh royal

jelly $33.95 for one kilo. Watch out for the shipping costs on the royal

jelly. Since it's perisheable, it has to be shipped overnight ($35) or 2

days ($17) I use two day delivery and it's still cheaper than

www.draperbee.com -- Theirs was $75 plus shipping. The other products I

have shipped by UPS. I don't use tablets or capsules, fresh is much better

for all bee products. Royal jelly has many nutritional properties, Propolis

AKA Russian pennicillin also has antiviral, antifungal, and antibacterial

properties that have been studied extensively in Russia. I suggest you add

fresh pollen to your regimen because it contains all the necessary nutrients

to sustain life except Vitamin D. I find Glorybee's Willamette Valley brand

to be superior to others I've tried because it has a variety of colors --

not just yellow and brown -- the quality of pollen is judged by lots of

different colors. I buy a five pund bag and keep it in the refrigerator so

it won't spoil.

Here's the guidelines from Theo Cherbuliez, MD, President of the American

Apitherapy Society who taught me how to use BVT and all the products from

the hive to help me heal for free:

Ideally --2 months -- prepare body to receive BVT

Morning and afternoon: 2 tsp. fresh pollen dissolved in liquid (I use

pineapple juice)--refrigerate 12 hours--rinse out glass and drink that also.

Most pollen passes through undigested if it is not soaked overnight. I only

take 2 tsp. in the morning.

5 grams (one tespoon) fresh royal jelly every morning (I mix in a jar 1

part royal

jelly to 2 parts honey -- honey will prevent royal jelly from spoiling --

tastes better--make a big batch -- honey is a preservative, so this mixture

doesn't need to be refrigerated -- take 1Tb. of this mixture)

(Note: he just revised that to 2 grams if it is to be taken for prolonged

periods)

10 drops propolis tincture every morning on a piece of bread (I add the

propolis to the 1 Tb royal jelly/honey mixture -- tastes better)

Ester Vitamin C 1000 mg. 3X daily (needed by the body to make cortisone

when using BVT

I only take 1000 mg. in the morning)

Continue taking for at least two years. I've been using this protocol for

four years to complement the BVT.

I order my bees from Ferris Apiaries www.radix.net/~honeybs 1-800-787-4669.

Yes, when I first started, I had lots of swelling and itching, at first, but

that is considered a very good reaction -- your immune system is kicking in.

The only dangerous reaction is an allergic reaction which could lead to

anaphylactic shock if it is not treated promptly. It is estimated that 1-5%

of the population is allergic to bee venom. Dr. Cherbuliez gave me a test

sting to make sure I was not allergic and also gave me a prescription for an

epi-pen that I always keep nearby whenever I sting. Swelling and fever in

the beginning is a good indicator that the BVT is working. After a while,

when your body becomes used to the venom, you don't experience these

symptoms anymore. It still burns like heck though, but it's worth it -- it

only stings for a short time and I chill the are before which helps a lot.

See the post I sent to Sandy about reactions to bee venom. The only

dangerous reaction to bee venom is anaphylactic shock. It is not damaging

anything at the same time. I have been doing this on and off for four

years, and I am better than ever! Don't just take my word for it, there are

thousands of people that have been doing it much longer than I have and they

are still alive and kicking. Dr. Cherbuliez keeps records of any adverse

reactions to bee venom. Some beekepers have reported that they experienced

adverse reactions while taking NSAIDS (ibuprofen, Advil etc.) so, it is now

recommended to refrain from using them with BVT. Most people that use this

therapy gradually stop taking, most medications when they begin to feel

better, and also because BVT works better when no other drugs are present

that may block the beneficial effects of the venom.

There are doctors in the US that use dried bee venom in injectable form for

many ailments, but it is only approved by the FDA to desensitize people

allergic to bee venom. It is also believed that some volatile substances

may be lost during the process. I Know Dr. Klinghart uses bee venom

injections for various ailments and have heard his name mentioned on this

list. His website is www.neuraltherapy.com Besides the extra cost of

injectable bee venom, it still cannot be given in one shot, and it burns

just as much as live honeybees. I think some doctors add something that

helps the stinging sensation. I cannot think of any other doctors right

now, but if you're really interested, I could find out.

It sure is worth a try for a lot of PWCs! The one thing that appealed to me

was that no one has a hidden agenda. There are volunteer apitherapists all

over the US and the world that will teach anyone interested in this therapy

for free. I get my bees from Ferris Apiaries because they're located on the

east coast. Please see my previous post to Sandy for their website.

's Bee Ranch @ www.jett.net/~allens is located in California (530)

221-1458. This round, I've been doing 4 stings every other day. I have

done 6 stings every other day for six months. I have done most of my

stinging on my spine (99%), because it is the least painful area -- less

muscle, and less swelling. I also like to sting on the spine because it

gets the venom in the central nervous system. Most people begin their

therapy there and experiment from there. Arms and legs swell the most, so

it is best to wait a couple of months before stinging there. I also have

experimented with acupuncture points -- it is supposed to boost the effect

of the venom. I have a book by Amber Rose called Bee In Balance that

explains how to use Bee Acupuncture. She has a web @ www.amberrose.com. If

you or anyone else is intewrested in trying BVT, I could help you locate an

apitherapist in your area.

Please read my post to Steve on how often and how many stings. Yes BVT does

hurt, especially in the beginning, but it gets better over time. That is

the main reason most people discontinue this therapy even though they see

improvements. There are remedies that help you through the initial period.

Preparation H and ice packs help with the swelling and itching. I always

chill the area BEFORE I sting which helps with the initial burning

sensation of the venom. I use a frozen tomato paste can for this purpose.

I also do some deep breathing to relax me before, during and after stinging.

The stinger itself does not hurt because it only penetrates the skin.

A clinical trial for the use of bee venom is presently being conducted in

town, Washington DC by Dr. ph Bellante.

In 1999, Bee Venom was granted a new Investigational Drug Approval status by

the FDA to begin a Phase I study sponsored by The Multiple Sclerosis

Association of America in conjunction with town University Medical

Center. It is being conducted as a result of all the MS patients that have

been helped by this treatment, and by the dedicated efforts of the American

Apitherapy Society (AAS) http://www.apitherapy.org/aas . They are a non

profit organization whose mission is to assist and provide information to

doctors, researchers and the general public, about the incredible healing

powers of apitherapy (the medicinal use of ALL honeybee products) and BVT.

Unfortunately it cannot be done as a double blind study because bee venom is

so distinctive in its reactions. The Phase I study was conducted to

determine any adverse effects of the venom. According to the television

program on TLC, they are in the next Phase of the trial to determine the

efficay of bee venom for MS. 16 people with MS that are using no other

medication are receiveng 10 intradermal injections ( the equivalent of 10

bee stings) 2X a week. This Phase will last one year. If all goes well,

more trials will follow.

Thousands of anecdotal reports from MS and arthritis patients have promoted

the use of BVT; but it is also effective for a multitude of minor and

chronic ailments. Cancer, Lyme and AIDS patients are also experimenting

with it. Melittin, one of the many healing components of bee venom,

exhibited powerful in vitro inhibitory effects on the Lyme disease

spirochete Borrelia

burgdorfer in a recent study. The abstract appeared in the journal Clinical

Infectious Diseases (Clin Infect Dis 1997 Jul;25 Suppl 1:S48-51). Melittin

is also presently being researched by a team of

scientists in Australia ( $1.3 million project) for its potential to kill

cancer cells. Melittin

is a molecule that kills cells by slicing through the cell membrane,

destroying the cells. Their aim is to produce immunotoxins by attaching

melittin to an antibody molecule that specifically recognizes cancer cells.

Information on this study is available @

http://www.csiro.au/news/mediarel/mr1999/bee.html .

I joined this list almost a year ago to inform the CFS community about this

alternative therapy. I have posted a few times about my success with BVT,

and have been lurking most of the time. This may answer the question that

was asked a few months ago by listmembers: What are " cured " PWCs doing?

This is what one PWC is doing -- stepping up my efforts to promote the use

of Apitherapy and BVT to the CFS community. That is also the reason I

joined the CFSME_Cured Booklist -- hopefully we'll get something started

there in the near future.

WARNING TO ANYONE CONSIDERING BVT-- DO NOT BEGIN STINGING BY YOURSELF!

Yes 's Bee Ranch is a good choice for anyone living on the west

coast -- the bees will survive the trip to SF by mail. I'm happy to hear

that you're eager to begin this therapy. But don't order any bees yet! As

I mentioned, there are certain precautions that need to be addressed in

order to SAFELY proceed on your own. Even though you said that you're not

allergic to bee stings, you ALWAYS begin with a test sting ( stinger is left

in for 10 seconds and scraped out without using tweezers to prevent all the

venom from being released.) You must wait at least 15 minutes to make

sure. Then you can proceed with the actual stinging (usually begin with 2

full stings and increase by 2 stings each session. The number of stings is

different for everyone --depends on the illness, how many you can tolerate

etc.. Alternating days is recommended to give the body a chance to recover,

and also so the body does not depend on the venom to do all the work and

starts to relearn how to function. Most people sting 3X a week -- Mon. Wed.

and Fri. My most recent round,I chose to do it every other dayand use only

4 stings. You also need to get a prescription for an Epi-pen from your

doctor and learn how to use it in case of an emergency. Members of the AAS

can get one from Dr. Cherbuliez. Another very important warning is that

anyone using BETA BLOCKERS should NOT use BVT because they use the same

channels that the Epi needs in the event of a severe allergic reaction. I

strongly advise you to contact a volunteer apitherapist in your area that

will give you a test sting, show you how it's done, where to sting ( painful

trigger points, acupuncture points etc.) provide support and teach you how

to safely proceed on your own free of charge. Some will help you on the

phone only. I found three volunteers from California:

Louise Estupinian (415) 453-6777752

Joe Grant (805) 682-2674

Shi-Jun Wang (408) 996-9816

You can also contact the people from the Pine Street

> Chinese Benevolent

> Ass.

>

> They are excellent apitherapists -- I don't know if there's a fee involved

with them.

>

> Here it is the address you need:

>

> ******************************************

> McCulloch, L.Acup., Brofmann, L.

> Acup.

> Pine Street Chinese Benevolent Association

> (Established 1983)

> 124 Pine Street

> San Anselmo, CA 94960

> Direct Tel: (415) 407-1357

> Fax: (415) 485-1065.

You may be able to find more apitherapists on the Apitherapy Data Base @

www.saunalahti.fi/~apither/Firstpage/ . They have a list of apitherapists

from almost every state and other countries. Dr. Stefan Stangaciu from

Romania also has a list of apitherapists @ www.apitherapy.com. He

recommended the Pine St. Association on an Apitherapy List I belong to.

Anyone can join this List at the Data Base site. Doctors, scientists,

apitherapists, and patients from all over the world share information and

ask and answer questions. Don't worry it's not a busy list, but the

information is invaluable from all sources. The American Apitherapy Society

also has a web site @ http://www.apitherapy.org/aas . I know this is

information overload, but for starters, I suggest that you read Dr.

Cherbuliez' conference report on Bee Venom in the Treatment of Chronic

Disesases which has a good overview on BVT, his protocol, reactions etc. @

www.apitherapy.org/aas/israel.html. This is the paper that convinced me to

try this therapy -- lucky me, I happen to live about an hour away from his

office! I strongly urge anyone interested in BVT to learn as much as they

can in order to make informed decisions.

Liquid bee venom injectons can only be given by doctors. You cannot get a

prescription filled out from a pharmacist-- injectable bee venom can only be

purchased by doctors and scientists. Doctors that use injectable bee venom

charge a fee and will not ship it to patients. Yes, there are doctors in

the US that use it, but the problem is trying to locate a doctor near you

that is experienced -- not to mention the cost and inconvenience of

traveling at least a couple of times a week for a quite a while. Before I

used BVT, I was unable to leave the house that often. I don't know if PWCs

need to sting forever, there aren't enough people that have tried it for

CFS/FM, so it's too early to tell. From my experience so far, I don't think

so, but no one knows --everyone is different. I can tell you that for most

chronic systemic conditions you need to sting for at least 6 months 3X a

week. Dr. Kim is located in Redbank, New Jersey. The doctor on the show

that treats his wife with bee venom injections is Dr. Sam Farrel and is

located in rural Missoury. Dr. Klinghardt is in Seattle. Please read my

post to Steve today for websites to help you locate a Dr. in your area and

also how to join the Apitherapy List. You could write to the List and maybe

someone could help you locate a doctor in Connecticut. If you're willing

to try it with live bees, I have three people in Connecticut that will teach

you for free.

Barry Finch (203) 438-6575

Kim MicHalewicz (860) 653-0137

Weiss (203) 762-3538

It really isn't such a big deal, much cheaper and much more convenient.

Since you watched the show, you know that you don't have bees crawling all

over you. They are picked up with tweezers, and sting as soon as they make

contact with your skin. We are conditioned to think that it's normal to be

injected with needles, but if you think of a bee as a " natural " needle,

delivering powerful chemicals to help you heal, it doesn't seem so strange.

You could also contact Dr. Theodore Cherbuliez, President of AAS, @

1209 Post Rd., Scarsdale, NY 10583

phone & fax # (914) 723-0920 e-mail: tcherbuliez@...

He may also know a doctor in your area, but since you live in Connecticut,

you're not very far from his office. You could make an appointment with him

for a consultation. His apitherapy appointments are on Saturdays. He

spends one hour with each patient, takes a complete health history, and only

if you feel comfortable, he will give you a test sting, and up to two stings

on your first visit (he uses bees.) He also gives you his home phone number

to use in an emergency -- all for free! If you decide to go this route, it

is best to go with someone that will be able to sting you at home, so that

they can learn about it and also be given a test sting. I only went to him

twice -- and now my husband stings me -- definitely worth the trip!

Sorry I wasn't able to respond sooner -- I'm still feeling " normal " -- just

very busy lately!!

There are no doctors listed in Connecticut @

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~apither/address/usa.html on the Apitherapy

Database. I checked for you

Try Dr. Stefan Stangaciu's site @ http://www.apitherapy.com (go to LEFT

screen -- scroll down -- click on Practitioners, then click on Medical

Doctors -- scroll down on RIGHT screen to United States)

I just checked Dr. Stefan's site -- no doctors from CT ( Go to these two

sites anyway, and contact the MD's that are listed -- they may know if

there's a doctor near you. I read somewhere (?) that there are about 200

doctors that use injectable bee venom in the US.

My suggestion to you is to FIRST get in touch with Dr. Cherbuliez. I know

he uses live bees; but, you can ask him if he also uses injectable venom.

He also may be able to help you locate a doctor in your area. Here's his

info again:

Dr. Theodore Cherbuliez, President of the American Apitherapy Society (AAS

website: http://www.apitherapy.org )

1209 Post Rd., Scarsdale, NY 10583

phone & fax # (914) 723-0920 e-mail: tcherbuliez@...

You could also join the Apitherapy List and ask if anyone there knows a

doctor. Instructions for joining the list are on the Apitherapy Database

site -- scroll all the way down on the FIRST website in this message --

click on Home -- scroll down, click on Apitherapy Discussion Forum -- an

e-mail will come on your screen with SUBSCRIBE in the subject line -- click

SEND (no message.) It is not a very busy list and it's very informative.

There are quite a few doctors and scientist there, and lots of patients and

apitherapists. All are very helpful -- like this GREAT

List we belong to! ( THANK YOU MODERATORS & ALL!!!)

Heres the answers to you questions:

[] Im trying to find out more about the bee venom injections it

seems

like it would be easier for me if anyone has info let me know. Also

I called this place that sells bees and they gave me pat wagners

phone number to ask here info but i did not her from here yet i did

here from the doc in Ny I forget his name his last name starts with a

C. he said if i could come there he would talke with me for an hour

and tell me all about this but I told him i cant drive. Still

looking for someone in Connecticut that does this.

[] Pat Wagner is the Apitherapist (woman with curly hair) you saw on

the TV program. She has MS and was a total vegetable before she used Bee

Venom Therapy. She uses live bees and stings people in her home 2X a week

for free. I just read that she just came back from India to teach a

Diplomat's wife with MS how it's done with bees. She may be able to help

you locate a doctor. Eventually she'll get back to you -- she always does!

Pat Wagner

" The Bee Lady "

5431 Lucy Drive

301.843.8350

Waldorf, MD 20601-3217

E-MAIL: beelady@...

WEB PAGE: http://www.olg.com/beelady/

[] Thanks for checking this out for me ill keep on it

still have not heard from pat wagner i called and left

a message. Are you thinking about trying this out?

[] You're welcome! Keep trying!

[] sorry I asked if you are using the bees I

thought you where someone else who wrote back to me

lol my memory is shot with this cfs.

[] I know what you mean, I used to have Jello brain -- not anymore!

There's hope for all PWCs. I only use live bees because I didn't have to

drag myself to a doctor's office ( need to go 2-3X a week for at leat 6

months to give it a fair trial for any chronic systemic illness) and

they're available to me NOW!! I'm 51 years old, and lost many precious

years to this disease. They're easy to use and very convenient -- it's no

big deal to me now. I can control the amount of venom by the number of

stings and by timing each sting without using needles. Besides, they're

cheap, sterile and I don't need a doctor/perscription. Even if it was

easily accessible, I still prefer to use bees because it is believed that

some beneficial volatile substances may be lost in the process of converting

it in injectable form. I'm not trying to dicourage you to use the

injectable venom -- it is very effective also -- only you, can decide what

suits you!

[] I talked with Dr

C the other day he said he did not no anyone in Ct but

he wanted me to come see him but i cant drive he

mentioned he new someone in canada that he could get

the bee venom injections from but did not say his name

do you know who this might be? also it sounded like

you can do this yourself but you would also need a doc

to presribe the needles tho. He said he will be away

until dec 2nd tho. not sure if i can get anyone to

bring me to him.

[] Dr. Theodore Cherbuliez, is the president of the American

Apitherapy Society. He's the BEST source of information on BVT. I know he

is very busy and travels a lot for apitherapy. He's also an MD

(psychiatrist with his own practice) and an associate professor at Cornell

University. I mentioned in previous posts that he is the one I used (went

only twice) and urge anyone interested in this treatment to make an

appointment for a FREE CONSULTATION. He devotes one hour on Saturdays to

each BVT patient, then you can contact him by phone -- NO CHARGE NO STRINGS

ATTACHED! I can vouch from my experience. I think I know the person in

Canada he's thinking of. His name is Simics who supplies dried bee

venom to doctors and scientists only. He's also a member on the Apitherapy

list I asked you to join. Maybe Dr. C can prescribe it for you (?) but, he

needs to see you to take your medical history, make sure you can safely do

it on your own, etc.. Make an appointment now and try to get someone to

drive you there -- you can always cancel -- there's a long waiting period to

see him. He's located about one hour from Danbury, Conn. in Westchester

County, NY.

[] Who was the doc that was in the

show? I wish i could contact the lady who had cfs in

the show . Do you remeber who they used the injections

on?

[] Dr. Sam Farrell from rural Missouri is the the one you saw on the

TLC show that treated his wife with MS with the injectable bee venom. The

other doctor was Dr. ph Bellanti from Washington DC. He's conducting

the clinical trial for MS at town Medical Center with injectable bee

venom. The lady on the show with CFS used live honeybees, her name is

Beverly Pollock Pettit(?) not sure of last name -- first time I heard about

her.

[] ill try to join not sure if it would work I have

my mail through not sure how to use my snet mail

that comes up when I click on that site to subscribe,

its hard when your confused and your memory is not

well oh well keep in touch thanks

[] Don't worry, no need to explain to anyone here about brain fog

etc..

To join the Apitherapy Discussion Forum List: Send an e-mail to

Apither-L@... Type SUBSCRIBE in the subject line and send it. That's

it! No words in the body of the message. If there's any problem, you can

contact the moderator, Durk Ellison, @ Durk.Ellison@...

Take your time, it's a lot of new information to digest even without the

brain fog! It took me a year from the time I heard about BVT and actually

doing it -- didn't know about the internet in '95! When you have the time,

check back in the archives and read the other messages I sent last week

starting on Oct,18. Little by little it will all begin to make sense to

you -- I'm still learning after 4 years. If you want, I could send you the

original post I sent to this list when I first introduced myself and BVT

on 12/20/99.

Found this today on CNN.com

" about Lawrence Cohen, a doctor in Danbury, Connecticut, who treats terrible

pain with the venom of ordinary honeybees. At first, Cohen gave the

84-year-old widow several injections of bee venom weekly, but eventually

reduced the dose to one injection every two or three weeks. " Read the

whole article @

http://www.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/01/21/bee.venom.wmd/#2

Don't know anything about him -- check him out! Also check out Related

Sites at the bottom of the page.

I will be vacationing in Quebec next week -- taking advantage of my 7 week

100% " recovery " ?!! Taking my little friends along for insurance. Keep me

posted -- will get back to you when I return.

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

December 23, 2000

Just a few notes, and we can just start this dialog up again after the

holidays when everyone has more time.

I am already off of Beta Blocker (pindolol only 5 mg. didn't like it

either) thanks to your warning about it in previous posts.

I got an epipen already.

My friend scott recommended using the thighs to start and less time

than you recommend. I will probably go with the slower approach.

I know that you are supposed to take a lot of vit. C for adrenal

support. According to Cheney, this is contraindicated in Glutathione

replacement via whey protiens (which I plan to continue) I think he said

up to 2 grams a day is OK?? So I guess I can take 3 as a compromise,

and maybe there is some substitute.

has been at this for awhile, and I think he will be a good

mentor. He has had improvement in his lesions shown by MRI scans due to

BVT.

I am very inerested in anything CFS specific. Like experiences of

other CFS/FM people and where they sting, how often etc..

Remember, I'm not starting until I learn more and check out meds with

experienced people etc..

E.

December 25, 2000

E,

Glad to hear that you're going ahead with the BVT. If you tell me what

state you live in, I can give you names and phone numbers of volunteer

apitherapists in your state from the list in my AAS journals. They can also

help you with any questions you may have. Local support is very important

in the beginning, so I'm glad you have a friend to help you get started --

the more the merrier! The only suggestion I can give you right now is not

to start on the thighs in the beginning. The arms and legs swell up too

much at first -- hands and feet are the worst. All apitherapists suggest

that you wait at least a month or two before you sting the extremities. The

spine sounds painful, but it's not -- less muscle in that area, so less

swelling and itching. It also gets the venom in your CNS. It's a little

different for people with MS because they have more numbness. They do not

feel the initial reaction as much as others. You mentioned that your test

sting was not as bad as you expected -- that's true. But when you do a

couple of full stings, it will be uncomfortable in the beginning. You

really want this to happen -- the body is waking up! My experience and that

of an e-friend (CFS/FM) that started last month: test sting and first 2

stings, not a lot of reaction -- second sting session, big reaction -- lots

of swelling itching etc.. Do not use cortisone -- use preparation - H --

helps with swelling and itching. Although it's uncomfortable, you want this

to happen -- it's a good indication that the BVT will be effective. Some

experience a " Healing Crisis " (herxing) which generally occurrs around the

second week -- for some much later. Flu like symptoms etc. -- some get

fevers. You may be tempted to take something for the flu like symptoms, but

you really don't want to smother this awakening of the immune system. Most

quit at this stage, but it's an excellent indicator that your immune system

is kicking in. You could cut back on number of stings, but should not

stop -- don't want to stop the momentum!!!! Some experience this one

time -- my e-friend and I, 3 or 4 times -- usually about 12 hrs. after sting

session. It only lasts about 24 hrs. After about a month, the reaction is

much milder at the sting sites -- no more itching and just a little swelling

right after stinging, so it's very tolerable once the rough period is over.

I actually look forward to my sting sessions because it makes me feel so

much better.

I'm so happy that you're willing to research BVT on your own. If you decide

to try it (and I hope you do) you must commit to doing it at least six

months, even if you don't notice any improvement! It takes that long for

some with MS, but I'm certain that you'll notice some very positive

improvements much sooner than that! I can't give you any guarantees, but if

you start to prepare your body now, by using all the bee products (see

yesterday's post I sent to Steve and continue to use them for al least

two years and ester vitamin C you will notice a lot of improvements in all

your symptoms. I don't know how long you need to continue with the BVT --

again, everyone is different! I think I could probably cut way back on my

stinging now, but I won't. During Thankgiving week, my bees died and I did

not sting for a week. I had no problem keeping up with all the preparations

and extra work involved in preparing a great meal and entertaining guests

that spent the long weekend at my house. I actually had more energy than my

husband. This is so unusual! I could never keep up with his extraordinary

stamina even when I was much younger and healthy!! The same thing is

happening this week. I've been so busy with houseguests and all the

Christmas preparations, that I haven't had the time to sting for about 5

days -- still no problem!! I'ts now 2:00 AM, everyone is sound asleep, and

I'm fine. A lot of people using BVT report that they require less sleep.

I know from experience that my body can handle all this right now -- it took

me a long time to reach this point!!! I always said that I needed some

" speed " -- never tried it, but I can honestly say that it does not make me

hyper or jittery and that bee venom is not addictive. I do know what hyper

is like because I was diagnosed with Graves' disease in '91 (autoimmune

hyperthyroidism) and I don't have any of those symptoms.

Other important precautions: Whenever anyone stops stinging for a few

weeks, one must always do a test sting! When you're ready to begin BVT, do

another test sting, then proceed with 2 stings. Wait at least a couple of

days before stinging again and increase by 2 each session. It is highly

recommended to wait at least one day between sting sessions to give the body

a rest, and also so the body does not depend too much on the venom and

learns how to balance itself once again. My e-friend tried to rush things

and ramped up to 8 stings too soon. She had to stop last week because she

was itchy from head to toe and her eyes were puffy! PWCs are much more

sensitive to everything! She'll be able to resume as soon as the itching

stops -- this time she will have to be extra cautious -- try one sting at a

time -- and slowly ramp up. I suspect too much histamine for her body --

too fast!!! I think most PWCs don't require more than 10 stings per session

3X a week -- but again, everyone is different!!! BVT works best when no

medications are being used that may block it's effectiveness. Most wean off

as they begin to feel better. Dr. Cherbuliez stressed the point that, as a

physician, he is careful to tell people using BVT to stop taking their

medications. It's a decision that must be considered by each individual --

hopefully with a supportive MD. Off the record, BVT is much more effective

when no other drugs are used. Ibuprofen should never be taken while doing

BVT-- some beekeepers reported anaphylactic reactions while on this drug

even though they were immunized for years from the inevitable multipe stings

they constantly receive.

Another PWC e-friend will be starting after the holidays (former Cheney

patient). I've asked her and others I'm helping to get started to keep me

posted so I could gather more data on the use of BVT for CFS/FM. I have the

names of three PWCs that have also had very positive results with BVT. I am

also corresponding with the editor of the AAS journal who is willing to help

me get in touch with them and any other PWCs that have tried BVT. The data

is scarce on the use of apitherapy for CFS/FM -- most apitherapists don't

know much about this dreadful disease! I am actively trying to change that

in the near future so we all could compare notes. Generally, for any

chronic illness, once the body becomes accustomed to the venom, people begin

to experiment by stinging on painful trigger points, acupuncture points

(supposed to make BVT much more effective) or just follow their instincts on

where they need to sting. The object is to spread the wealth all over the

body. When I started, I had no one to help me with this -- too tired and

brain dead to be able to digest the information in the book Bee in Balance

by Amber Rose www,amberrose.com,so I decided to follow one of her

suggestions of getting the venom to travel through nerve pathways via the

spine. I've experimented, but not a lot because I found this method very

effective. Recently the numbness in my hands started to come back. I

experimented on my neck, shoulders arms and wrists -- it worked -- no more

numbness!!!

Is Cheney saying that bee venom is contraindicated with whey, or the

vitamin C? Please clarify. I never used whey, so I can't help you in that

area, I guess you'll be our guinea pig!

Got to get some sleep now -- Merry Christmas to all!!!!!

Bzzz...

----- Original Message -----

From: <paleotechnics@...>

> Just a few notes, and we can just start this dialog up again after the

> holidays when everyone has more time.

> I am already off of Beta Blocker (pindolol only 5 mg. didn't like it

> either) thanks to your warning about it in previous posts.

> I got an epipen already.

> My friend scott recommended using the thighs to start and less time

> than you recommend. I will probably go with the slower approach.

> I know that you are supposed to take a lot of vit. C for adrenal

> support. According to Cheney, this is contraindicated in Glutathione

> replacement via whey protiens (which I plan to continue) I think he said

> up to 2 grams a day is OK?? So I guess I can take 3 as a compromise,

> and maybe there is some substitute.

> has been at this for awhile, and I think he will be a good

> mentor. He has had improvement in his lesions shown by MRI scans due to

> BVT.

> I am very inerested in anything CFS specific. Like experiences of

> other CFS/FM people and where they sting, how often etc..

> Remember, I'm not starting until I learn more and check out meds with

> experienced people etc..

> E.

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

December 25, 2000

Great response , I guess you must be bursting with energy! I'm

sure many on the list besides me are finding this dialogue intriguing.

<<< E,

Glad to hear that you're going ahead with the BVT. If you tell me what

state you live in, I can give you names and phone numbers of volunteer

apitherapists in your state from the list in my AAS journals. They can

also help you with any questions you may have. Local support is very

important in the beginning, so I'm glad you have a friend to help you

get started -- the more the merrier!>>>

I live in Mendocino County California. About 100 miles N. of the bay

area.

<<<The only suggestion I can give you right now is not to start on the

thighs in the beginning. The arms and legs swell up too much at first --

hands and feet are the worst. All apitherapists suggest that you wait at

least a month or two before you sting the extremities. The spine sounds

painful, but it's not -- less muscle in that area, so less swelling and

itching. It also gets the venom in your CNS. It's a little different for

people with MS because they have more numbness. They do not feel the

initial reaction as much as others. You mentioned that your test

sting was not as bad as you expected -- that's true. But when you do a

couple of full stings, it will be uncomfortable in the beginning. You

really want this to happen -- the body is waking up! My experience and

that of an e-friend (CFS/FM) that started last month: test sting and

first 2 stings, not a lot of reaction -- second sting session, big

reaction -- lots of swelling itching etc.. Do not use cortisone -- use

preparation - H -- helps with swelling and itching. Although it's

uncomfortable, you want this to happen -- it's a good indication that

the BVT will be effective.>>>

I did have a pretty good local reaction by the next day. about 5

inch diameter swelling with a 2 inch red circle in the center that is

persisting. Not too bothersome, although 10 of them might be! I do a

lot of IM shots on my thighs, so I probably should avoid them to save

space for them.

<<<Some experience a " Healing Crisis " (herxing) which generally

occurrs around the second week -- for some much later. Flu like symptoms

etc. -- some get fevers. You may be tempted to take something for the

flu like symptoms...usually about 12 hrs. after sting session. It only

lasts about 24 hrs.>>>

Actually I think I already had a small one. I've been doing pretty

well lately, but a lot of cycling back and forth between feeling pretty

good with a bit, to a lot, more energy and what I think is a kind of

detox mode. The day after the sting I had a pretty good " Herx " which

seems to have cleared up after about 36 hours. I think I was kind of

poised for it because of the other stuff I have been doing, and the one

sting pushed me right over. I was overjoyed! and consider this a good

sign too.

<<<....you must commit to doing it at least six months, even if you

don't notice any improvement! It takes that long for some with MS, but

I'm certain that you'll notice some very positive improvements much

sooner than that! I can't give you any guarantees, but if you start to

prepare your body now, by using all the bee products (see yesterday's

post I sent to Steve and continue to use them for al least two years

and ester vitamin C you will notice a lot of improvements in all your

symptoms.>>>

My BVT guide ( Wolland) said the same- commit to six months. I

missed that post to Steve B. because egroups is not sending me all my

mail or regularly, but I'll look it up in the archives. I tried about a

half teaspoon of honey, and it made me feel horrid right away. I just

cannot deal with the sugar. I do want to look into propolis, and am

already taking bee pollen. I am curious about the effect of Bee venom

and propolis on the TH1 and TH2 immune response systems. said

that propolisis is mainly antibacterial and antifungal. I thought that

it was an immune stimulant too for some reason.

<<<... I can honestly say that it does not make me hyper or jittery and

that bee venom is not addictive. I do know what hyper is like because I

was diagnosed with Graves' disease in '91 (autoimmune hyperthyroidism)

and I don't have any of those symptoms.>>>

Good, I've always had a problem with getting hyper and jittery even pre

illness. I'm currently hypothyroid.

<<<Other important precautions: Whenever anyone stops stinging for a few

weeks, one must always do a test sting! When you're ready to begin BVT,

do another test sting, then proceed with 2 stings. Wait at least a

couple of days before stinging again and increase by 2 each session.>>>

The plan for me was to increase the time that the stinger is left in

for a while instead of increasing the number of stings.

recommended doubling the time it is left in until we get to several

minutes before going on to 2 stings. This seems to be a more cautious

approach and I will probably use it. I also already knew about starting

back with a test sting after being off for two weeks.

<<<Off the record, BVT is much more effective when no other drugs are

used.

I have a difficult time accepting such a banket statement since there

are so many different acting pharmaceuticles (sp?). What about herbs?

and other potentially powerfully acting supplements? I also am hesitant

to quit the stuff I'm on now, as it actually seems to be helping for

once. One though that I think may be a problem is the Doxepin which is

supposed to be a potent antihistamine. I understand that the histamine

reaction is not necessarily something that you want to suppress??

<<<Another PWC e-friend will be starting after the holidays (former

Cheney patient). I've asked her and others I'm helping to get started to

keep me posted so I could gather more data on the use of BVT for CFS/FM.

I have the names of three PWCs that have also had very positive results

with BVT. I am also corresponding with the editor of the AAS journal who

is willing to help me get in touch with them and any other PWCs that

have tried BVT. The data is scarce on the use of apitherapy for CFS/FM

-- most apitherapists don't know much about this dreadful disease! I am

actively trying to change that in the near future so we all could

compare notes.>>>

Great, I too will stay in touch if I continue with this. Have you heard

any negative or neutral stories, or just good ones? It's always good

to try to maintain some objectivity.

<<<Is Cheney saying that bee venom is contraindicated with whey, or the

vitamin C? Please clarify.>>>

No absolutely not what I meant. I probably didn't word it right.

There is some reason not to take excessice C when on undenatured whey

protiens for glutathione replacement. I don't remember why, but I

remember that it was ok to do up to 2 grams or so. said that the

reccomended range for BVT is 3 to 6 grams for adrenal support. so, I

figured that I would go with 3 as a sort of compromise because I do not

want to stop the Immunepro.

One last note, I wrote to Dr. Stefan Stangaciu with a list of what I'm

taking now and whether or not these things might be contraindicated in

BVT, and an inquiry about BVT's effect on TH1 & TH2 immunity. I will

post something if I get an interesting response.

Thanks again for your great response and your dedication to bringing BVT

to the CFS/ME/FM etc... community.

E.

December 27, 2000

From: <paleotechnics@...>

Great response , I guess you must be bursting with energy! I'm

sure many on the list besides me are finding this dialogue intriguing.

[] I still am -- I never thought I would ever be able to feel this

good again! I see that others on this list are also researching BVT and

asking questions -- something I've been hoping for ever since I joined this

extraordinary list.

I live in Mendocino County California. About 100 miles N. of the bay

area.

[} I found three volunteers from California: I suggest you contact as

many of these people as possible. Each will contibute valuable information,

help you get started and provide local support.

Louise Estupinian (415) 453-6777752

Joe Grant (805) 682-2674

Shi-Jun Wang (408) 996-9816

>Dr. Stefan recommends the Pine Street Chinese Benevolent Ass.

> Here is the address you need:

>

> ******************************************

> McCulloch, L.Acup. (former editor of " Bee Informed the AAS "

> journal) E-mail: chinamed@...

> Brofmann, L. Acup. E-mail beehaven@...

> Pine Street Chinese Benevolent Association

> (Established 1983)

> 124 Pine Street

> San Anselmo, CA 94960

> Direct Tel: (415) 407-1357

> Fax: (415) 485-1065.

I don't know if there's a fee for some of their services,

but if they use LIVE bees, all apitherapists are do not charge a

fee. They are not listed as volunteers in the AAS journal, but Dr. Stefan

highly recommeds them. Dr. Cherbuliez told me to find an acupuncturist that

was willing to show me where to sting on acupuncture points (perhaps mark

the spots on my body) It's called apipuncture or BVT with a bang!

I did have a pretty good local reaction by the next day. about 5

inch diameter swelling with a 2 inch red circle in the center that is

persisting. Not too bothersome, although 10 of them might be! I do a

lot of IM shots on my thighs, so I probably should avoid them to save

space for them

[] That's an excellent reaction! Question: Did your friend scrape

the stinger out or did he

use tweezers? When stings are

timed the stinger must be scraped out with any straight edged

object or a clean fingernail. If tweezers are used, the remaining venom is

squeezed out. One minute --90% of venom is released -- all venom is

released after about 5 minutes, or when the bulbous part of the

stinger stops moving back and forth. Just wondering because that's such a

big reaction for leaving the stinger for only about

three seconds!

Actually I think I already had a small one. I've been doing pretty

well lately, but a lot of cycling back and forth between feeling pretty

good with a bit, to a lot, more energy and what I think is a kind of

detox mode. The day after the sting I had a pretty good " Herx " which

seems to have cleared up after about 36 hours. I think I was kind of

poised for it because of the other stuff I have been doing, and the one

sting pushed me right over. I was overjoyed! and consider this a good

sign too.

[] I'm overjoyed also!!!! You'll probably continue cycling for a

while if you proceed with the BVT. Everyone that uses bee venom notices

increased energy. I just checked my notes when I first began BVT and wrote

that I was surprised to wake up feeling rested and had more energy about 36

hrs after my first Herx (flu like aches and fever 101.5)