Re: Hypothyroid, Krebs cycle blocks, and RNase-L

[Guest guest]

My thyroid function tests are not normal: TSH 16.4 Free T4:

10

I have tried all of the thyroid meds available in Canada

including T3. Small baby doses.

I stop sleeping if I so much as lick the tablet.

My specialist in Internal Medicine says not to worry - he

understands the need for sleep in CFS and he knows how many

years it took before I found meds that helped me sleep.

Still, I worry about my thyroid and wonder whom to believe.

The endocrinologist insisted that I take the medication but

she knows nothing about CFS.

Any ideas, Rich?

Kathy

Hypothyroid, Krebs cycle

blocks, and RNase-L

> Hi, all.

>

> I'd like to share some thoughts for your consideration.

>

> Quite a few PWCs have reported that when their thyroid

hormones were

> tested, they came out normal, but if they went ahead and

took

> supplementary thyroid hormones anyway, they experienced

benefits in

> their symptomatology, in terms of feeling warmer and

having more

> energy. If this has been or has not been people's

experience, I would

> like to hear about it.

>

> In the past, I suggested that what was going on was that

these PWCs

> had partial blockades in their Krebs cycles because of

inhibition of

> aconitase by peroxynitrite, secondary to depletion of

their reduced

> glutathione (which in turn was driven by a combination of

various

> kinds of stressors and perhaps influenced by a genetic

predisposition

> and dietary inadequacies). I suggested that the increase

in thyroid

> hormones was partially compensating for this by inducing

the

> production of more enzymes, including aconitase, so that

even though

> their thyroid hormone levels appeared to be in the normal

ranges, they

> benefited by raising them above the normal ranges because

it helped to

> counter something else that was abnormal, i.e., the amount

of active

> aconitase enzyme.

>

> Upon viewing the latest video of Dr. Cheney, it struck me

that another

> mechanism may be going on, also, as follows. We know that

many PWCs

> have a high activity in their RNase-L pathway, and Dr.

Cheney has

> stressed that this causes an across-the-board breakdown of

messenger

> RNA, including not only the messenger RNA that supports

the production

> of proteins needed by the virus, but also the proteins

needed by the

> cell for normal operation, presumably including the

enzymes used in

> the Krebs cycle. The result is a general slowing of the

metabolism of

> the cell. It occurs to me that adding thyroid hormones in

this

> situation could partially compensate for this slowing

produced by the

> RNase-L, because the way thyroid hormones operate is to go

to the

> nucleus of the cell and promote gene expression, i.e. the

production

> of messenger RNA. So maybe the thyroid hormones are

acting to counter

> the effect of the RNase-L as well as to counter the effect

of

> peroxynitrite on producing partial blockades in the Krebs

cycles.

>

> So what? Well, it would of course be better to figure out

how to

> switch off the overactive Rnase-L pathway rather than just

to oppose

> it by making messenger RNA faster than this pathway can

destroy it. I

> guess that's what Ampligen does, but as you know that's

very expensive

> and hard to get right now. (And I think it's important to

knock out

> the virus and get the Th1 immune response back up to speed

to take

> over the fight against the virus from the Rnase-L pathway

before you

> shut this pathway down, or the virus will run rampant.)

In the

> meantime, maybe there's a basis here for the so-called

's

> syndrome (not the same as 's disease), and a

justification for

> the use of the 's syndrome remedy in CFS

(supplementary

> timed-release T3). I've always wondered where this fits

in, and maybe

> this is the place. I would appreciate any comments.

>

> Rich

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

increase in thyroid

> hormones was partially compensating for this by inducing the

> production of more enzymes, including aconitase, so that even

though

> their thyroid hormone levels appeared to be in the normal ranges,

this is the place. I would appreciate any comments.

>

> Rich

Hi Rich,

I think you maybe right. A Lyme patient told me she felt better

with thyroid supplements. I think also the hypothalmus injury that

Cheney mentions may also be involved.

Al

[Guest guest]

> My thyroid function tests are not normal: TSH 16.4 Free T4:

> 10

>

> I have tried all of the thyroid meds available in Canada

> including T3. Small baby doses.

>

> I stop sleeping if I so much as lick the tablet.

>

> My specialist in Internal Medicine says not to worry - he

> understands the need for sleep in CFS and he knows how many

> years it took before I found meds that helped me sleep.

>

> Still, I worry about my thyroid and wonder whom to believe.

> The endocrinologist insisted that I take the medication but

> she knows nothing about CFS.

>

> Any ideas, Rich?

>

> Kathy

Kathy,

What system of units are you using for the free T4? Your value of 10

would be at the low end of the normal range in one set of units

(picomoles per liter), and it would be quite high in another

(nanograms per deciliter). The TSH numerical range comes out the same

in both sets of units that are used, and your value of 16.4 is quite

high. Various sources give the high end of the normal range at 4.7,

5, and 6 milli International Units per liter for TSH.

Rich

[Guest guest]

My doctor says that my Free T4 0f 10 was at the low normal

range. He also said something interesting, which I would

like to question him about: he said that when you start

taking thyroid medication, your pituitary shuts down.

My agenda is alwasy too full whenever I see him and too much

falls between the cracks. Can you explain what he meant by

this comment?

I am still confused by his cavalier attitude towards my test

results. He does understand CFS though especially my

sensitivity to medications.

Thanks for responding, Rich.

Kathy

Re: Hypothyroid, Krebs cycle

blocks, and RNase-L

>

> > My thyroid function tests are not normal: TSH 16.4 Free

T4:

> > 10

> >

> > I have tried all of the thyroid meds available in Canada

> > including T3. Small baby doses.

> >

> > I stop sleeping if I so much as lick the tablet.

> >

> > My specialist in Internal Medicine says not to worry -

he

> > understands the need for sleep in CFS and he knows how

many

> > years it took before I found meds that helped me sleep.

> >

> > Still, I worry about my thyroid and wonder whom to

believe.

> > The endocrinologist insisted that I take the medication

but

> > she knows nothing about CFS.

> >

> > Any ideas, Rich?

> >

> > Kathy

>

> Kathy,

>

> What system of units are you using for the free T4? Your

value of 10

> would be at the low end of the normal range in one set of

units

> (picomoles per liter), and it would be quite high in

another

> (nanograms per deciliter). The TSH numerical range comes

out the same

> in both sets of units that are used, and your value of

16.4 is quite

> high. Various sources give the high end of the normal

range at 4.7,

> 5, and 6 milli International Units per liter for TSH.

>

> Rich

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kathy,

O.K., if your TSH is high and your T4 is low, that suggests that

you have primary hypothyroidism, that is, that your thyroid gland is

not putting out enough T4 (and probably T3 as well), even though

your hypothalamus and pituitary are calling for more. The way the HPT

axis works is that the hypothalamus secretes TRH

(thyrotropin-releasing hormone), and this causes the pituitary to

secrete TSH (thyroid-stimulating hormone). TSH stimulates the

thyroid gland to secrete T4 and T3. There is a feedback system by

which the T4 and T3 downregulate the hypothalamic secretion of TRH and

the pituitary secretion of TSH, and this keeps the HPT axis in

control, normally. If a person has primary hypothyroidism and is

given thyroid hormones (T4 or T3 or both), this will normally

suppress the TRH and the TSH secretion. This may have been what

your doctor meant about the pituitary shutting down when you take

thyroid medication.

Concerning your very high sensitivity to supplementary thyroid

hormones, it may be that because your hormone levels have been low,

there has been a compensatory increase in the sensitivity of your

cells to these hormones, trying to make up for this lack, so that now

when you introduce normal levels all of a sudden, it's just too much.

The advice gave of starting very low and working up sounds

pretty reasonable to me, but I have no personal experience with this.

Another thing you might consider is to make sure you are getting

enough iodine, selenium and tyrosine in your diet. These are all

important for the function of the thyroid system.

As usual, be aware that this is not intended to be diagnosis or

medical advice, but simply information from an unlicensed layperson.

I know it's a problem when your doctors give conflicting advice, but

hopefully you will be able to resolve that by talking with them or

getting them to confer with each other.

Rich

> > > My thyroid function tests are not normal: TSH 16.4 Free

> T4:

> > > 10

> > >

> > > I have tried all of the thyroid meds available in Canada

> > > including T3. Small baby doses.

> > >

> > > I stop sleeping if I so much as lick the tablet.

> > >

> > > My specialist in Internal Medicine says not to worry -

> he

> > > understands the need for sleep in CFS and he knows how

> many

> > > years it took before I found meds that helped me sleep.

> > >

> > > Still, I worry about my thyroid and wonder whom to

> believe.

> > > The endocrinologist insisted that I take the medication

> but

> > > she knows nothing about CFS.

> > >

> > > Any ideas, Rich?

> > >

> > > Kathy

[Guest guest]

Trudy,

Thanks for posting this. I listened to both interviews, and also read

an article by in Nexus magazine.

I just have a really tough time believing all of this. Maybe I'm

naive, but I just can't imagine that people in our government would

intentionally give serious, in some cases fatal, diseases to

large numbers of black Africans, or to gay people or white women in

our own country. I can't understand how they would be motivated to do

this, how a large enough group to do these things would not have

someone in it who would have moral qualms and would blow the whistle,

how they could have gotten all those different government agencies to

cooperate with each other (that only seems to happen in Tom Clancy

novels, in my experience), or how they could have kept it quiet so

long. It's also hard for me to believe that so many different

diseases could all be caused by the same pathogen. I also question

whether CFS or FM are in fact " new " diseases. They may be more

prevalent now, but I think there is pretty good evidence that they

are not new. I realize that the government has supported research and

development in biological warfare agents, and I am aware that Dr. Lo

has a patent on mycoplasma. does have many of his facts

straight, but I just have real difficulty in buying in to his whole

conspiracy theory. I think that a lot of strange things can be

explained by stupidity or ineptness, rather than conspiracy.

Thanks again.

Rich

> Hi Rich,

>

> DONALD SCOTT was interviewed by Dr. Stanley Monteith of Radio

> Liberty (http://www.radioliberty.com/) and discussed the Special

Virus

> Cancer Program Report #9 and the endocrine dysfunction (thyroid,

> adrenal, etc.) found in AIDS, " CFS " , FM, etc.

>

>

http://www.oneplace.com/PlayIt.asp?file=/rlt/rlt20020225.rm & proto=rtsp

>

> (Two hour interview.)

>

> http://www.oneplace.com/PlayIt.asp?file=/rl/rl20020227.rm & proto=rtsp

> (One hour interview.)

>

> If you are interested in listening to these interviews, they will

only

> be in archives for a few more days.

>

> Kind regards,

> Trudy

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:50:14 -0000

> From: " rvankon " <vankonynenburg1@l...>

> Subject: Hypothyroid, Krebs cycle blocks, and RNase-L

>

> Hi, all.

>

> I'd like to share some thoughts for your consideration.

>

> Quite a few PWCs have reported that when their thyroid hormones were

> tested, they came out normal, but if they went ahead and took

> supplementary thyroid hormones anyway, they experienced benefits in

> their symptomatology, in terms of feeling warmer and having more

> energy. If this has been or has not been people's experience, I

would

> like to hear about it.

>

> In the past, I suggested that what was going on was that these PWCs

> had partial blockades in their Krebs cycles because of inhibition of

> aconitase by peroxynitrite, secondary to depletion of their reduced

> glutathione (which in turn was driven by a combination of various

> kinds of stressors and perhaps influenced by a genetic

predisposition

> and dietary inadequacies). I suggested that the increase in thyroid

> hormones was partially compensating for this by inducing the

> production of more enzymes, including aconitase, so that even though

> their thyroid hormone levels appeared to be in the normal ranges,

they

> benefited by raising them above the normal ranges because it helped

to

> counter something else that was abnormal, i.e., the amount of active

> aconitase enzyme.

>

> Upon viewing the latest video of Dr. Cheney, it struck me that

another

> mechanism may be going on, also, as follows. We know that many PWCs

> have a high activity in their RNase-L pathway, and Dr. Cheney has

> stressed that this causes an across-the-board breakdown of messenger

> RNA, including not only the messenger RNA that supports the

production

> of proteins needed by the virus, but also the proteins needed by the

> cell for normal operation, presumably including the enzymes used in

> the Krebs cycle. The result is a general slowing of the metabolism

of

> the cell. It occurs to me that adding thyroid hormones in this

> situation could partially compensate for this slowing produced by

the

> RNase-L, because the way thyroid hormones operate is to go to the

> nucleus of the cell and promote gene expression, i.e. the production

> of messenger RNA. So maybe the thyroid hormones are acting to

counter

> the effect of the RNase-L as well as to counter the effect of

> peroxynitrite on producing partial blockades in the Krebs cycles.

>

> So what? Well, it would of course be better to figure out how to

> switch off the overactive Rnase-L pathway rather than just to oppose

> it by making messenger RNA faster than this pathway can destroy it.

I

> guess that's what Ampligen does, but as you know that's very

expensive

> and hard to get right now. (And I think it's important to knock out

> the virus and get the Th1 immune response back up to speed to take

> over the fight against the virus from the Rnase-L pathway before you

> shut this pathway down, or the virus will run rampant.) In the

> meantime, maybe there's a basis here for the so-called 's

> syndrome (not the same as 's disease), and a justification for

> the use of the 's syndrome remedy in CFS (supplementary

> timed-release T3). I've always wondered where this fits in, and

maybe

> this is the place. I would appreciate any comments.

>

> Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

Actually, I was simply sharing the interviews because I thought you

might find of interest the information that was found in the Special

Virus Cancer Program Progress Report #9 regarding chronic syndromes

and the endocrine dysfunction. (The endocrine dysfunction found in

chronic syndromes is " old news " to most alternative practitioners.)

With respect to the issue of conspiracy theory, I guess that, with

this illness, I have been stripped of my naivety a long time ago

because of my personal dealings with so many doctors (and their

governing bodies). I have learned first hand that a lot of doctors

give new meaning to the term " low life. " It has been my observation

that medicine does not seem to attract a lot of people of integrity or

of high moral character, so the question of conspiracy is a non issue

for me. (It seems that many of them can't tell the difference between

right and wrong.) I think that what presents surpasses

any " theory, " because he reports that everything he says can be

documented either from government documents or from the scientific

literature. His Journal of Degenerative Diseases is an excellent

publication and always well documented. If you do not receive it, I

would highly recommend it.

You may find the following link of interest. (Please bear in mind

that this is probably only a very small listing of the things that the

government has been involved in. I doubt very much that they are not

going to tell you and me their secrets! ;-) LOL

A History of Secret U.S. Government Programs

http://hometown.aol.com/agoliszek/page2/index.htm

With respect to the issue of " conspiracies " you should know that God

believes in them! Study Psalm 2. Also, go to:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

(Type in the word " conspiracy " and check out the results.)

Anyway, I don't usually read the posts from this group, but just

happened to catch yours. ...I'll go back into lurking mode again! ;-)

Kind regards,

Trudy

Message: 22

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 00:11:49 -0000

From: " rvankon " <vankonynenburg1@...>

Subject: Re: Hypothyroid, Krebs cycle blocks, and RNase-L

Trudy,

Thanks for posting this. I listened to both interviews, and also read

an article by in Nexus magazine.

I just have a really tough time believing all of this. Maybe I'm

naive, but I just can't imagine that people in our government would

intentionally give serious, in some cases fatal, diseases to large

numbers of black Africans, or to gay people or white women in

our own country. I can't understand how they would be motivated to do

this, how a large enough group to do these things would not have

someone in it who would have moral qualms and would blow the whistle,

how they could have gotten all those different government agencies to

cooperate with each other (that only seems to happen in Tom Clancy

novels, in my experience), or how they could have kept it quiet so

long. It's also hard for me to believe that so many different

diseases could all be caused by the same pathogen. I also question

whether CFS or FM are in fact " new " diseases. They may be more

prevalent now, but I think there is pretty good evidence that they are

not new. I realize that the government has supported research and

development in biological warfare agents, and I am aware that Dr. Lo

has a patent on mycoplasma. does have many of his facts

straight, but I just have real difficulty in buying in to his whole

conspiracy theory. I think that a lot of strange things can be

explained by stupidity or ineptness, rather than conspiracy.

Thanks again.

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

I take T3 and T4.

I think my thyroid problems go back to childhood. I suspect it was an

intermittent problem then. By my late teens - early 20's I had classic

symptoms of hypothyroidism which were always there but did vary in

severity.

Oedema - rapid swelling of legs during the day which, after a variable

time, disappeared just as quickly (regardless of level or

type of activity). Waking with swollen ,puffy eyes, thick

head, headache, swollen hands, swollen sinuses, swollen lips.

Every day I felt as if I was suffering from a hangover.

intolerance to cold - Felt cold where others felt warm. The cold

seemed to come from within the bones, it felt as if someone

was pouring ice cold water into my spinal column. I couldn't

maintain my body temperature, even in bed with plenty of

covers. Most nights, at 2-4 a.m. I would need to get into a

hot bath as this was the only way to relieve the intense

cold.

unexplained weight gain - Underlying trend to gain weight. Illogical

links between food intake, hunger and weight gain/loss. At

times I could eat relatively large amounts, have a keen

appetite, feel hungry and loose weight. At other times I

would loose my appetite, eat very little, feel less hungry

and gain weight. Problem always worse in winter and when

suffering from infections.

swollen sinuses - mild Hay fever like symptoms, frequent sinusitis,

sinus pain/headaches, neuralgia (particularly down 1 side

of face - like earache, headache, eyeache and toothache all

at once), heavy headed.

frequent infections - sinus, throat, urinary system, ears, eyes etc

low energy levels - tiredness after very little exertion

slowness - we have all seen speeded up films on TV, that is what my

life felt like. I would operate at the fastest rate I could,

but around me everyone else seemed to be whizzing about

effortlessly. I felt as if I had adopt the slow shuffle of

a disabled geriatric.

My thyroid levels were tested many times over the years, sometimes

just T4, sometimes T4 and T3 and sometimes T3, T4 and TSH. They

always came back close to (and sometimes slightly above) the mean

values. In my mid 40's I saw DRs practising outside the NHS, they put

me on T4 and within days some of the above eased. The first difference

I noticed was the lightening of my heavy head. Later, I added T3 and

low doses of cortisone, my life improved considerably.

The principal Dr involved followed the work of the American, Broda

, who used the basal temperature test to determine if thyroid

replacement might be beneficial. Conventional blood test results were

given little weight.

This approach is not endorsed by the Royal colleges here in the UK and

is against their codes of practice. This marvelous doctor, who helped

countlesss thousands of patients who were often desperate and couldn't

find help anywhere else, is now suspended from practice for not

following these codes of practice.

I believe that much work needs to be done to re-calibrate the base

values used for blood tests, especially in women who were often

excluded from research etc. because of the variations found during

their menstral cycle.

The hypothyroidism was always worse during times of illness, during

winter and when under prolonged stress. Should the thyroid levels

alter during these times?

The hypothyroidism has been present during the times when I have sunk

into ME and recovered again (this is my 3rd bout of severe ME) It is

not the same as my ME and solving the thyroid problem does not solve

my ME problem. It may however, explain why I develope the ME in the

first place.

My experiences suggest that -

1) ME developes when the body is placed under too much combined total

stress (biological, chemical, emotional, physical injury etc.). Each

stressor contributes to, but does not cause ME. This is why there is

a problem identifying an underlying cause.

2) The decline may be slow, rapid or of sudden onset, often dependent

on the severity of the final stressor that pushes the patient into the

ME.

3) Once the ME process is activated our tolerance for stressors

declines. Some original contributary stressors may disappear, but the

ME process continues and new stressors replace old ones.

4) ME is a state of physical exhaustion, all systems are

interdependant and all systems are stressed. Different

systems/processes fail/malfunction at different times in each

individual. The pattern of failure/malfunction is often dependant on

our inbuilt, inherited physical strengths and weaknesses. This is why

the common illness processes are so difficult to identify.

5) Illness is very stressful.Possibly the most significant contributor

to the perpetuation of ME is the illness itself. A vicious circle.

6)An holistic approach is essential. Aiding one system/process may

boost some functioning. This improved functioning will then place

additional demands on many other systems/processes which in turn

fail/malfunction. This is why supplements/treatments that appear

helpful in the short term do not produce long term improvements in

health. They just move the problem to a different area.

7) The search for a cure can be counter-productive, adding to the

stressors that cause our illnesss in the first place.

8) The body has a wonderful ability to compensate for failures in

systems/processes. To return compensatory states to " the norm " may be

injurous. Unfortunately, no-one knows what is compensatory and

advantageous, what is compensatory and disadvantageous, what is a

causative factor, what is a perpetuating factor and what is a

resultative factor.

9) Everyone with ME has an individual, pre-determined route back to

health, all we can do is aid this process by gentle, careful

interventions. An inappropriate/over enthusiastric intervention may

result in a setback.

B

> Hi, all.

>

> I'd like to share some thoughts for your consideration.

>

> Quite a few PWCs have reported that when their thyroid hormones were

> tested, they came out normal, but if they went ahead and took

> supplementary thyroid hormones anyway, they experienced benefits in

> their symptomatology, in terms of feeling warmer and having more

> energy. If this has been or has not been people's experience, I would

> like to hear about it.

>

[Guest guest]

I take 1/4 grain/day of dessicated pork thyriod. Mostly I take it as

a prophylactic. Too, I have trouble taking other sources of Iodine

(except the Lugol's solution a la the Gerson Therapy, which I really

need to start again). All my thyroid tests have normal, or near so.

My basal temperature is habitually low.

So, at one time I took more thyroid in an attempt to raise it,

thinking this was the crux of my problem. I increased my dose in

increments until I was finally taking 4 grains/day. I felt like I

was on speed. I could do more, but was paradoxically more tired !

I began to lose weight and have terrible joint pains !!! But, my

basal temperature never improved.

Now, I have found that I can take no more than 1/4 grain/day without

bringing the joint pain back on. My basal temperature has improved

now, but it has been due to a general improvement in my condition.

The greatest difference in my basal temperature towards normal was

made by addressing (at least partially) my cavitations. I had a big,

quick boost in my overall well being from this.

Just my experience,

Zippy

[Guest guest]

Zippy,

Sorry if I have missed it but what have you done with your cavitations?

Thanks Nil

Re: Hypothyroid, Krebs cycle blocks, and

RNase-L

| I take 1/4 grain/day of dessicated pork thyriod. Mostly I take it as

| a prophylactic. Too, I have trouble taking other sources of Iodine

| (except the Lugol's solution a la the Gerson Therapy, which I really

| need to start again). All my thyroid tests have normal, or near so.

|

| My basal temperature is habitually low.

|

| So, at one time I took more thyroid in an attempt to raise it,

| thinking this was the crux of my problem. I increased my dose in

| increments until I was finally taking 4 grains/day. I felt like I

| was on speed. I could do more, but was paradoxically more tired !

| I began to lose weight and have terrible joint pains !!! But, my

| basal temperature never improved.

|

| Now, I have found that I can take no more than 1/4 grain/day without

| bringing the joint pain back on. My basal temperature has improved

| now, but it has been due to a general improvement in my condition.

|

| The greatest difference in my basal temperature towards normal was

| made by addressing (at least partially) my cavitations. I had a big,

| quick boost in my overall well being from this.

|

| Just my experience,

| Zippy

|

|

|

| This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

|

|

[Guest guest]

B,

Thank you for the detailed response. I agree with your conclusions.

I'm sorry about the good doctor being suspended from practice. This

type of thing seems to be all too common here as well.

Rich

[Guest guest]

Zippy,

Thanks for the response.

Sounds as though the bacteria in your cavitations were producing

toxins that were blocking the enzymes in your metabolism, and that

they were potent enough that the elevated thyroid hormones could not

overcome them. Just pouring in more thyroid hormones clearly doesn't

work for everyone. I guess the key thing is what is limiting the rate

of metabolism in each case. It doesn't seem to be the same for all

PWCs.

Rich

[Guest guest]

My thyroid levels were on the low end of normal, but when I tried to take a

fraction of a small dose of Armour Thyroid, I had problems with a racing

heart, which was incredibly fatiguing. I just can't seem to tolerate it at

all. I thought that it was because I have very weak adrenal glands, and as a

result they just can't tolerate increased metabolism.

lindaj@...

Hypothyroid, Krebs cycle blocks, and RNase-L

> Hi, all.

>

> I'd like to share some thoughts for your consideration.

>

> Quite a few PWCs have reported that when their thyroid hormones were

> tested, they came out normal, but if they went ahead and took

> supplementary thyroid hormones anyway, they experienced benefits in

> their symptomatology, in terms of feeling warmer and having more

> energy. If this has been or has not been people's experience, I would

> like to hear about it.

>

> In the past, I suggested that what was going on was that these PWCs

> had partial blockades in their Krebs cycles because of inhibition of

> aconitase by peroxynitrite, secondary to depletion of their reduced

> glutathione (which in turn was driven by a combination of various

> kinds of stressors and perhaps influenced by a genetic predisposition

> and dietary inadequacies). I suggested that the increase in thyroid

> hormones was partially compensating for this by inducing the

> production of more enzymes, including aconitase, so that even though

> their thyroid hormone levels appeared to be in the normal ranges, they

> benefited by raising them above the normal ranges because it helped to

> counter something else that was abnormal, i.e., the amount of active

> aconitase enzyme.

>

> Upon viewing the latest video of Dr. Cheney, it struck me that another

> mechanism may be going on, also, as follows. We know that many PWCs

> have a high activity in their RNase-L pathway, and Dr. Cheney has

> stressed that this causes an across-the-board breakdown of messenger

> RNA, including not only the messenger RNA that supports the production

> of proteins needed by the virus, but also the proteins needed by the

> cell for normal operation, presumably including the enzymes used in

> the Krebs cycle. The result is a general slowing of the metabolism of

> the cell. It occurs to me that adding thyroid hormones in this

> situation could partially compensate for this slowing produced by the

> RNase-L, because the way thyroid hormones operate is to go to the

> nucleus of the cell and promote gene expression, i.e. the production

> of messenger RNA. So maybe the thyroid hormones are acting to counter

> the effect of the RNase-L as well as to counter the effect of

> peroxynitrite on producing partial blockades in the Krebs cycles.

>

> So what? Well, it would of course be better to figure out how to

> switch off the overactive Rnase-L pathway rather than just to oppose

> it by making messenger RNA faster than this pathway can destroy it. I

> guess that's what Ampligen does, but as you know that's very expensive

> and hard to get right now. (And I think it's important to knock out

> the virus and get the Th1 immune response back up to speed to take

> over the fight against the virus from the Rnase-L pathway before you

> shut this pathway down, or the virus will run rampant.) In the

> meantime, maybe there's a basis here for the so-called 's

> syndrome (not the same as 's disease), and a justification for

> the use of the 's syndrome remedy in CFS (supplementary

> timed-release T3). I've always wondered where this fits in, and maybe

> this is the place. I would appreciate any comments.

>

> Rich

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Zippy,

Thanks for the response. It sounds as though there were bacteria in

your cavitations that were putting out toxins that were blocking your

metabolism, and they were too potent to be overcome by the additional

thyroid hormones.

Rich

[Guest guest]

B,

Thank you for the detailed response. Sorry to hear that the good

doctor was suspended from practice. That type of thing unfortunately

occurs here as well. I agree with your conclusions.

Rich

[Guest guest]

> Zippy,

> Sorry if I have missed it but what have you done with your

cavitations?

> Thanks Nil

>

================================================================

I had them operated on once. It helped me a great deal within 24 hrs..

Still, I do not believe the proceedure was done properly.

At that time (~1997) there was little consideration of

hypercoagulation, and it's relation to cavitations. I believe this

may be one of the big reasons that some people get cavitations, while

others do not, i.e. they have untreated hypercoagulation.

Hopefully, I will be able to readdress this issue later on this

summer.

Best wishes,

Zippy

[Guest guest]

,

You may be right. Which thyroid hormones were measured, in your

case? And what were the values? Was the TSH low or high?

Rich

> My thyroid levels were on the low end of normal, but when I tried to

take a

> fraction of a small dose of Armour Thyroid, I had problems with a

racing

> heart, which was incredibly fatiguing. I just can't seem to tolerate

it at

> all. I thought that it was because I have very weak adrenal glands,

and as a

> result they just can't tolerate increased metabolism.

>

>

> lindaj@h...

>

> Hypothyroid, Krebs cycle blocks, and

RNase-L

>

>

> > Hi, all.

> >

> > I'd like to share some thoughts for your consideration.

> >

> > Quite a few PWCs have reported that when their thyroid hormones

were

> > tested, they came out normal, but if they went ahead and took

> > supplementary thyroid hormones anyway, they experienced benefits

in

> > their symptomatology, in terms of feeling warmer and having more

> > energy. If this has been or has not been people's experience, I

would

> > like to hear about it.

> >

> > In the past, I suggested that what was going on was that these

PWCs

> > had partial blockades in their Krebs cycles because of inhibition

of

> > aconitase by peroxynitrite, secondary to depletion of their

reduced

> > glutathione (which in turn was driven by a combination of various

> > kinds of stressors and perhaps influenced by a genetic

predisposition

> > and dietary inadequacies). I suggested that the increase in

thyroid

> > hormones was partially compensating for this by inducing the

> > production of more enzymes, including aconitase, so that even

though

> > their thyroid hormone levels appeared to be in the normal ranges,

they

> > benefited by raising them above the normal ranges because it

helped to

> > counter something else that was abnormal, i.e., the amount of

active

> > aconitase enzyme.

> >

> > Upon viewing the latest video of Dr. Cheney, it struck me that

another

> > mechanism may be going on, also, as follows. We know that many

PWCs

> > have a high activity in their RNase-L pathway, and Dr. Cheney has

> > stressed that this causes an across-the-board breakdown of

messenger

> > RNA, including not only the messenger RNA that supports the

production

> > of proteins needed by the virus, but also the proteins needed by

the

> > cell for normal operation, presumably including the enzymes used

in

> > the Krebs cycle. The result is a general slowing of the

metabolism of

> > the cell. It occurs to me that adding thyroid hormones in this

> > situation could partially compensate for this slowing produced by

the

> > RNase-L, because the way thyroid hormones operate is to go to the

> > nucleus of the cell and promote gene expression, i.e. the

production

> > of messenger RNA. So maybe the thyroid hormones are acting to

counter

> > the effect of the RNase-L as well as to counter the effect of

> > peroxynitrite on producing partial blockades in the Krebs cycles.

> >

> > So what? Well, it would of course be better to figure out how to

> > switch off the overactive Rnase-L pathway rather than just to

oppose

> > it by making messenger RNA faster than this pathway can destroy

it. I

> > guess that's what Ampligen does, but as you know that's very

expensive

> > and hard to get right now. (And I think it's important to knock

out

> > the virus and get the Th1 immune response back up to speed to take

> > over the fight against the virus from the Rnase-L pathway before

you

> > shut this pathway down, or the virus will run rampant.) In the

> > meantime, maybe there's a basis here for the so-called 's

> > syndrome (not the same as 's disease), and a justification

for

> > the use of the 's syndrome remedy in CFS (supplementary

> > timed-release T3). I've always wondered where this fits in, and

maybe

> > this is the place. I would appreciate any comments.

> >

> > Rich

> >

> >

> >

> > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I have been on Armour thyroid (45 mg) for a year. It has helped me

with stamina, energy, clear thinking. I can't go without it! I was

not below normal in the thyroid tests, but I talked my doc into

prescribing it for me.

Martha

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/29/02 4:04:26 AM Mountain Standard Time,

vankonynenburg1@... writes:

> I guess the key thing is what is limiting the rate

> of metabolism in each case.

What a moment of clarity! Thanks, Rich.

Adrienne

[Guest guest]

My TSH was low, (1.01 uIU/ml with 0.10-5.50 being the reference range)

making it look like I'm closer to hyperthyroid. But my T4 was on the lower

end of normal. (5.9 mcg/dl with a reference range of 4.8-12.3)) My total T3

was mid-range, (1.3 ng/ml reference range 0.6-1.8)but we never checked

reverse T3. And I don't know how my body is able to convert the low levels

of T4 to the levels of T3 that I have. I have low body temperature, between

95.8 to 96.1, except when I run a low grade fever occasionally. I had

managed to get it up to 97 by taking ENADA and CoQ10, but I've slowly lost

ground, and now I'm back down to the 95.8-96.1 level again. I eat about

700-1000 calories a day, and my weight remains the same. I have classic low

thyroid symptoms, but the TSH makes it look like I'm on the verge of

hyperthyroid. And my reaction to the Armour Thyroid was like a hyperthyroid

reaction. My naturopath believes that my TSH levels are low because of an

underactive hypothalamus, and it's impact on my pituitary. And she suspects

that I'm producing reverse T3, but I haven't had it checked. Years ago, when

I was pregnant, I WAS hyperthyroid. I had low TSH, very high T4 and Very

high T3 levels. (I don't know what the levels were, the doctor just told me

this verbally) At that time I had symptoms of hyperthyroid. I remember

having a very fast heart rate and being jittery and nervous all the time.

They never figured out what caused it, other than pregnancy, because it

resolved itself after I gave birth. But I used to be a toothpick back then.

Now I'm slightly overweight.

lindaj@...

Re: Hypothyroid, Krebs cycle blocks, and

RNase-L

> ,

>

> You may be right. Which thyroid hormones were measured, in your

> case? And what were the values? Was the TSH low or high?

>

> Rich

[Guest guest]

Martha,

Thanks for the response. It's good to hear from you again!

Would you mind saying whether you have evidence of ongoing infection,

such as sore lymph nodes, flu-like feelings, sore throat, crimson

crescents, fevers, chills, etc.?

This is probably too much to hope for, but have you been tested for

the low molecular weight RNase-L?

I'd like to find out if people with your experience with normal

thyroid tests but who benefit from thyroid hormones have ongoing

infections and an upregulated RNase-L system.

Rich

> I have been on Armour thyroid (45 mg) for a year. It has helped me

> with stamina, energy, clear thinking. I can't go without it! I was

> not below normal in the thyroid tests, but I talked my doc into

> prescribing it for me.

>

> M

[Guest guest]

> > I have been on Armour thyroid (45 mg) for a year. It has helped

me

> > with stamina, energy, clear thinking. I can't go without it! I

was

> > not below normal in the thyroid tests, but I talked my doc into

> > prescribing it for me.

> >

> > M