Re: Mobilizing toxins versus eliminating them

June 15, 2002

Hi Carole and All,

I have some feelings about

detoxification from some

past knowledge and readings. Rich probably has a better understanding

of the processes. I think that it is a complex issue and probably there

is a whole lot that is not known about it by medical science. You are

asking a basically general question. Toxins refer to substances that

can effect our bodys / physiology /biochemistry in negative ways.

There are myrads of substances that are toxic or can be in combination

with other substances. Our bodys have various systems / processes /

pathways

that are involved in detoxification. Certain classes of substances can

be detoxified through different biochemical pathways. There are some

theories that

in CFS/FM a pathway(s) don't function properly, may be damaged.

The liver and skin are supposed to be major detoxifying organs. If these

are overloaded (more toxins than they can handle), the toxic effects of

these origional substances become greater because their concentration

in the through out the body become greater. I believe that often with

toxic substances that there is a predisposition to accumulate in

specific

parts of the body due to their specific nature. I think that mercury has

more of a specificity toward nervous tissues. Certain pesticides

have a tendency to accumulate in fatty tissue as they are probably fat

soluble.

In addition to organs of detoxification, each cell has its own systems

of detoxification. If they can't perform that job efficiently "

normally "

then toxins will build up and the cells will suffer the toxic effects.

I understand that sometimes, in detoxifying some substances, more

toxic substances can be produces in the process that then must be

detoxified further.

I believe, in general, chelators are substances used to remove heavy

metals from the body. They probably can remove some of the necessary

metallic ion also. I have heard that doctors give replacement necessary

minerals after chelation to compensate.

I am not that familiar with what substances help in detoxification.

Our

bodys are different and we may be deficient in some things and not

others. I have heard that milk thistle is being used to help the liver

function. A lot of attention has been given to glutathione and whey

protein, which is supposed to increase the cellular glutathione levels.

The other substances such as selenium and clantro and chlorella, I have

heard of as helping in some way.

Heat such as saunas and hot baths are supposed to help in

detoxification. Probably

it works by increasing the metabolism of the skin to help detoxify by

excretion.

Books on pharmacology seem to explain the different metabolic pathways

of detoxification.

There are probably docs out there on the internet that have

information on this.

If anyone could recommend any, please give us the info. I wish that

my

brain could work better to absorb it all had achieve a better level of

understanding

Not jokingly, I say that if my nervous system wasn't so toxic, I would

be thinking

better.

Take

Care All

Mike

P.S. I have heard, as an example of detoxifying to quickly, that a

person got

very sick or died because of too much mercury being chelated out

too quickly. I am not trying to scare anyone. I think that it was an

extreme case

of a lot of mercury being in the persons system, accumulated over a long

period of time.

June 15, 2002

--- B12 detoxifies the brain becasue the hydroxl molecule separates

easy from the cobalamin (one form of b12 is hydroxycobalamin) and

binds with the toxin, so u get toxin+cobalamin and is excreted

through the urine. Cheney says you need 1 molecule for every toxin

molecule and reccommends up to 10,000 microgrammes weekly.

Lipoic acid is another important detoxifier, especially in people who

have gilberts on their liver (High bilirubin levels). It also helps

to protect the liver. Jabs of these help detoxify too.

It is important to supplement with B-complex if you are taking b12

jabs. Exactly what detoxifying is FOR in CFS and how it contributes

to CFS symptoms, I am not sure. Perhaps someone else can anser this

question

In @y..., Mike <mikes@e...> wrote:

> Hi Carole and All,

> I have some feelings about

> detoxification from some

> past knowledge and readings. Rich probably has a better

understanding

> of the processes. I think that it is a complex issue and probably

there

> is a whole lot that is not known about it by medical science. You

are

> asking a basically general question. Toxins refer to substances that

> can effect our bodys / physiology /biochemistry in negative ways.

> There are myrads of substances that are toxic or can be in

combination

> with other substances. Our bodys have various systems / processes /

> pathways

> that are involved in detoxification. Certain classes of substances

can

> be detoxified through different biochemical pathways. There are some

> theories that

> in CFS/FM a pathway(s) don't function properly, may be damaged.

> The liver and skin are supposed to be major detoxifying organs. If

these

>

> are overloaded (more toxins than they can handle), the toxic

effects of

> these origional substances become greater because their

concentration

> in the through out the body become greater. I believe that often

with

> toxic substances that there is a predisposition to accumulate in

> specific

> parts of the body due to their specific nature. I think that

mercury has

>

> more of a specificity toward nervous tissues. Certain pesticides

> have a tendency to accumulate in fatty tissue as they are probably

fat

> soluble.

> In addition to organs of detoxification, each cell has its own

systems

>

> of detoxification. If they can't perform that job efficiently "

> normally "

> then toxins will build up and the cells will suffer the toxic

effects.

> I understand that sometimes, in detoxifying some substances, more

> toxic substances can be produces in the process that then must be

> detoxified further.

> I believe, in general, chelators are substances used to remove

heavy

> metals from the body. They probably can remove some of the necessary

> metallic ion also. I have heard that doctors give replacement

necessary

> minerals after chelation to compensate.

> I am not that familiar with what substances help in

detoxification.

> Our

> bodys are different and we may be deficient in some things and not

> others. I have heard that milk thistle is being used to help the

liver

> function. A lot of attention has been given to glutathione and whey

> protein, which is supposed to increase the cellular glutathione

levels.

> The other substances such as selenium and clantro and chlorella, I

have

>

> heard of as helping in some way.

> Heat such as saunas and hot baths are supposed to help in

> detoxification. Probably

> it works by increasing the metabolism of the skin to help detoxify

by

> excretion.

> Books on pharmacology seem to explain the different metabolic

pathways

>

> of detoxification.

> There are probably docs out there on the internet that have

> information on this.

> If anyone could recommend any, please give us the info. I wish

that

> my

> brain could work better to absorb it all had achieve a better

level of

> understanding

> Not jokingly, I say that if my nervous system wasn't so toxic, I

would

> be thinking

> better.

>

Take

> Care All

>

> Mike

>

> P.S. I have heard, as an example of detoxifying to quickly, that a

> person got

> very sick or died because of too much mercury being chelated out

> too quickly. I am not trying to scare anyone. I think that it was an

> extreme case

> of a lot of mercury being in the persons system, accumulated over a

long

>

> period of time.

June 15, 2002

Hi,

I forgot to mention the kidneys as an organ of detoxification

Mike

June 15, 2002

I take oral magnesium, and it keeps things moving right along. It is known to

do that. Only problems I have is if I don't take it.

I thought you couldn't excrete toxins unless you first mobilized them.

A

June 15, 2002

Thanks Mike for your explanation of detoxification. This helps me be more

precise about the question at the heart of my question, which is :

If one's system is toxic from over-mobilizing existing toxins, such as

mercury, what can help the body EXCRETE and NOT MOBILIZE further?.

I gather that baths/saunas help the skin excrete, drinking water would help

the kidneys excrete. Does anyone know if MILK THISTLE, SELENIUM, CILANTRO,

CHLORELLA help excrete or mobilize? (Am I asking the right question, I

wonder.)

Thanks !

Carole

June 15, 2002

,

If I understand what you are sayin about B12, the toxins would be excreted

directly through the urine. After several injections of B12, I found that my

brain was sharper, memory better, and yet it seems to have set me on the

road to a major crash. Is this possible? I only injected 5 times, at about

..3 cc (10,000 mcg/ml).

" --- B12 detoxifies the brain becasue the hydroxl molecule separates

easy from the cobalamin (one form of b12 is hydroxycobalamin) and

binds with the toxin, so u get toxin+cobalamin and is excreted

through the urine. "

Thank you

Carole

June 15, 2002

Maybe this is obvious, but the most important thing I have heard is to keep

your bowels moving. You want fast mobility (the time it takes for stuff to

get through your colon) in addition to frequent excretion. You should be

going several times a day. Otherwise the mercury can be reabsorbed from the

colon.

Doris

June 15, 2002

hi is it possible that since hydroxy form of b12 is known to be a potent

detoxer that it caused massive detoxing or more than the body could handle.

when i was very toxic and had hydroxy b12 in an iv , it had me detoxing

faster than my body could handle it.

u should be able to get this stuff perservative free.

i college pharmacy in wisconsin has alot of preservative free minerals and

vitamins .

somish

June 15, 2002

I have not heard of anyone getting worse from B12 EXCEPT when they had a

problem with the preservatives in the B12. Does yours have preservatives?

Personally I don't have a problem with the preservatives, but I know several

people who have. Besides that, I've heard from several dozen people who

have taken B12, and the worst I ever heard was that it didn't help. Never

that it caused anyone to crash.

Thanks,

Doris

----- Original Message -----

From: " Carole Sierpien " <sierpien@...>

> If I understand what you are sayin about B12, the toxins would be excreted

> directly through the urine. After several injections of B12, I found that

my

> brain was sharper, memory better, and yet it seems to have set me on the

> road to a major crash. Is this possible? I only injected 5 times, at

about

> .3 cc (10,000 mcg/ml).

June 15, 2002

The Hydroxy I injected did not have preservatives. Perhaps it is just a

coincidence that I got sicker after taking it. I've gotten very gun-shy with

trying new things.

Thanks, Doris.

Carole

-----Message d'origine-----

De : Doris Brown [mailto:dorisbrown9@...]

Envoyé : 15 juin, 2002 21:13

À :

Objet : Re: Mobilizing toxins versus eliminating

them

I have not heard of anyone getting worse from B12 EXCEPT when they had a

problem with the preservatives in the B12. Does yours have preservatives?

Personally I don't have a problem with the preservatives, but I know several

people who have. Besides that, I've heard from several dozen people who

have taken B12, and the worst I ever heard was that it didn't help. Never

that it caused anyone to crash.

Thanks,

Doris

----- Original Message -----

From: " Carole Sierpien " <sierpien@...>

> If I understand what you are sayin about B12, the toxins would be excreted

> directly through the urine. After several injections of B12, I found that

my

> brain was sharper, memory better, and yet it seems to have set me on the

> road to a major crash. Is this possible? I only injected 5 times, at

about

> .3 cc (10,000 mcg/ml).

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

June 16, 2002

A fine topic here.

Yes, I've always believed we needed to open up the drain holes before scrubbing

the dirt and washing it out.

I believe the more common excretion drain holes are, in no particular order:

a. Urination

b. Bowel Movements

c. Perspiration

d. Exhalation

Other less common ones that might be looked at are: coughing up, blowing our

noses, sneezing, bleeding, and i am sure there are others.

It's highly individual how one helps their body excrete, but i think one should

keep as many channels open as possible. If the dirt doesn't go out one hole,

maybe it will go out the next.

This might be individual but....

For urination, i drink water. Organic cranberry helps me out here.

For bowel movements, i eat enough bulk in my food, like rice or bread.

Magnesium helps me out here.

For perspiration, i drink water. I exercise in a 100 degree Fahrenheit room.

Taking a shower makes me perspire. I turn on the infra-red heater to sweat out

any cold or flues. I bake on the hot sand and sun.

For exhalation, i exhale forcefully in some breathing exercises. I try to

exhale fully a number of times during the day.

Sometimes a toxin is blocking an excretion drain hole. Removing the mercury

improved my bowel elimination.

Care all,

Bbob

Re: Mobilizing toxins versus eliminating them

I take oral magnesium, and it keeps things moving right along. It is known

to

do that. Only problems I have is if I don't take it.

I thought you couldn't excrete toxins unless you first mobilized them.

A

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

June 17, 2002

Judith wrote :

For example, I do believe that the crashes from

activity (exercise intolerance) are either or both

lactic acid buildup (inappropriate for the level of

activity) and some " residue " of viral and/or bacterial

" stuff " that has evaded the immune system by hiding in

muscle tissue and is released by activity and attracts

cytokines.

Annette's reply :

This is also something that I think about a great

deal. If I have a reaction due to exercise it has the

same symptoms as my reaction to Immunpro or the lemon

drink - Sore throat, glands, fever etc - plus a more

achy body.

One thing that does work slightly for me is dry skin

brushing with a bristle brush. My body appears

" swollen " with water or something and dry-skin

brushing helps to eliminate this. Diuretics have no

effect on this. However, if I " over-do " the skin

brushing it I experience a very bad reaction.

This may be because it can get quite vigorous and my

heart rate increases and it becomes exercise

intolerance. In addition it may also help with toxins

and is a double-whammy.

__________________________________________________

June 17, 2002

In a message dated 6/16/02 11:45:38 AM Mountain Daylight Time,

iacheck@... writes:

> Other less common ones that might be looked at are: coughing up, blowing

our

> noses, sneezing, bleeding...

Yes; very interesting! Reminds me of the well known custom of bleeding people

as a treatment. They have actually gone back to using leeches I now recall

reading-I think. (Will look it up)

The theory for bleding people may have been something else, but the effect

was purification?

In recent times I had an adopted Native American uncle (late), who used to

travel to Okla at least once a year to be bled.

Adrienne

June 17, 2002

In a message dated 6/17/02 4:01:14 PM Mountain Daylight Time,

mikes@... writes:

> from what I understand quite a few

> people bled to death,

> including some famous people, owing it to the practice of bleeding

> people as

> a medical treatment.

Yeah; when people didn't show signs of recovery, they were bled repeatedly.

That's what did it, I believe.

I did check up on leeches, and they ARE used medicinally currently.

adrienne

June 17, 2002

Hi Adrienn and All,

from what I understand quite a few

people bled to death,

including some famous people, owing it to the practice of bleeding

people as

a medical treatment.

Mike

June 17, 2002

I read in one the mails on this topic that one needs

to have atleast 2-3 bowel movements per day to assist

in a good detoxification process.

I did a lot of detoxification protocols a while ago

-juicing, eating raw vegetables etc. And all of a

sudden I crashed and I have not recovered from it in

the past 3 months. I was wondering if its because of

lack of frequent bowel movements. As mentioned in some

of the emails, I probably was mobilizing too many

toxins but didn't take care of the excretion process.

My face used to break out a lot after I started

juicing. My face was always clear before, even though

I had CFS for 13 years. I was thinking this was due to

detoxification too.

Can someone suggest, What are the good

supplements/herbs which would help accomplish 3 bowel

movements per day?

Thanks a lot

Gayathri

__________________________________________________

June 18, 2002

Gayatri,

Dr Cheney reccommended Nature's Way Aloe Vera in 100 capsule bottle.

I have found this to be very helpful.

Lucey

>I read in one the mails on this topic that one needs

>to have atleast 2-3 bowel movements per day to assist

>in a good detoxification process.

>

>I did a lot of detoxification protocols a while ago

>-juicing, eating raw vegetables etc. And all of a

>sudden I crashed and I have not recovered from it in

>the past 3 months. I was wondering if its because of

>lack of frequent bowel movements. As mentioned in some

>of the emails, I probably was mobilizing too many

>toxins but didn't take care of the excretion process.

>

>My face used to break out a lot after I started

>juicing. My face was always clear before, even though

>I had CFS for 13 years. I was thinking this was due to

>detoxification too.

>

>Can someone suggest, What are the good

>supplements/herbs which would help accomplish 3 bowel

>movements per day?

>

>Thanks a lot

>Gayathri

>

>__________________________________________________

>

June 18, 2002

I would like to add that I soak almonds over night and found them to

be helpful also. Does roasting them affect the laxative effect?

L

>Hi Gayathri,

>I had constipation for years.

>You know what turned this around - almonds. I roast about 20 in the

>morning and put oil and salt on them.

>I did not start this to relieve constipation but rather b/c I am on a strict

>diet and this is a treat. I noticed my BM's were regular after this. I

>looked up almonds and constipation ont he internet and sure enough, they are

>recommended for constipation.

>I'm sure they are very good for you for other reasons too.

>Hope this helps.

>

>----- Original Message -----

>

> > Can someone suggest, What are the good

>> supplements/herbs which would help accomplish 3 bowel

>> movements per day?

>>

>> Thanks a lot

>> Gayathri

>>

>> __________________________________________________

>>

June 18, 2002

In a message dated 6/18/02 6:46:31 AM Mountain Daylight Time,

lucey001@... writes:

> Dr Cheney reccommended Nature's Way Aloe Vera in 100 capsule bottle.

> I have found this to be very helpful

ya, ,

Come to think of it, aloe vera IS very effective. And I bet the liquid or jel

in a bottle is way cheaper than in capsules. That's how I use it.

I can't recall if there is any brand that can bottle it w. out adding a

preservative, for those who need to be wary.

Adrienne

June 19, 2002

The good news is that the more you detox, the better the digestion works and

this becomes less of a problem. At least that's what I have found. A year

ago (and for most of my life) I went about once a week. Now at least 3

times a day, usually more.

Magnesium pills help (and is good for you anyway)

Lemon/olive oil drink helps: blend 1 whole lemon with skin but without

seeds, and 1/4 cup olive oil, (I added a tablespoon or two of metamucil to

sweeten it up.)

It seems the B12 shots help me here also. I assume this has to do with

detoxing.

Thanks,

Doris

----- Original Message -----

From: " Gayathri Kuppuswamy " <gayu_pwc@...>

>

> I read in one the mails on this topic that one needs

> to have atleast 2-3 bowel movements per day to assist

> in a good detoxification process.

June 19, 2002

Here are some of my thoughts about some of the things mentioned in this

thread over the last few days:

Leaches do not just remove blood. They also inject a hypercoagulation

substance. They are also very good at removing excess copper. I've often

wondered if they might have some potential use for PWC's with

hypercoagulation problems, or PWC's with Metallothionein problems that cause

an imbalance of copper to zinc. I think it would be an interesting thing to

look into further.

As far as detoxing, since PWC's often have very different problems, one

detox method that helps one person may make another sicker. For example,

lemon/olive oil drinks may be a problem for PWC's with Krebs Cycle blockages

that make them have difficulties with citrates. Using sauna's for

eliminating toxins can be problems for PWC's who have thermoregulation

problems, and their bodies aren't able to handle excess heat. Eating lots of

fruits and vegetables (and increasing fiber) can be a problem for PWC's who

have harmful pathogens in their intestines that feed and multipy on the

increased fiber. PWC's with problems metabolizing cysteine may have a

problem with undenatured whey's. And sometimes being a guinea pig and just

trying different things can end up causing major crashes that are next to

impossible to completely recooperate from.

Just as an example, there are a lot of people recommending taking lots of

antioxidants for PWC's because we have a lot of toxins and free radical

damage. But most antioxidants have a problem. They couple with a toxin, and

turn into a more toxic free radical. Then they have to be coupled with

another antioxidant to be converted back to an antioxidant or to be

neutralized so that they can then carry the toxin out of the body. For

example, taking lots of vitamin C can create mega amounts of free radicals,

if the correct antioxidants to couple to it are not present. (This may be

one of the reasons why Dr. Cheney doesn't recommend high doses of Vitamin C

to his patients) There are some antioxidants that don't have to have another

antioxidant to couple to in order to remove toxins. (I believe glutithione

is one, and Alpha Lipoic Acid is one, but i might be wrong, because I don't

have my nutritional encyclopedia handy to look it up, and my memory is

becoming increasingly defective.) Unfortunately, the more common

antioxidants, like Vitamin C and Vitamin A need to have coupling

antioxidants to prevent them from becoming toxic. I believe the name of this

is redox coupling, or something like that.

Then there is the problem that when a person is really toxic, using the

kidneys as a primary elimination point can end up causing damage to the

kidneys. For example, chelating mercury can end up causing damage to the

kidneys if the mercury is chelated too quickly.

I could ramble on quite a bit longer about this subject, but I've got an

appointment that I've got to get to, so I'm going to have to just leave this

much to think about.

lindaj@...

June 19, 2002

Yes I can certainly second that. The more one detoxes, the better the digestion

works and this becomes less of a problem. Just got to get it started..

Bbob

Re: Mobilizing toxins versus eliminating them

The good news is that the more you detox, the better the digestion works and

this becomes less of a problem. At least that's what I have found. A year

ago (and for most of my life) I went about once a week. Now at least 3

times a day, usually more.

Magnesium pills help (and is good for you anyway)

Lemon/olive oil drink helps: blend 1 whole lemon with skin but without

seeds, and 1/4 cup olive oil, (I added a tablespoon or two of metamucil to

sweeten it up.)

It seems the B12 shots help me here also. I assume this has to do with

detoxing.

Thanks,

Doris

----- Original Message -----

From: " Gayathri Kuppuswamy " <gayu_pwc@...>

>

> I read in one the mails on this topic that one needs

> to have atleast 2-3 bowel movements per day to assist

> in a good detoxification process.

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

June 20, 2002

Yes i really hope everyone understands that everybodys remedies could be very

individual. I still appreciate hearing about the remedies. I further research

the ones that sound promising for my case. I approach my CFS specialist to get

their recommendations. Even with their recommendations, i find i still have to

approach things cautiously.

Care all