Re: Glutathione depletion and drugs? RICH?

June 22, 2006

>

> > I agree, and even have also been thinking about the diabetes metaphor

> > for some time now, how glutathione is to CFS as insulin is to

> > diabetics.

> > A VERY apt metaphor I think. As if CFS is a type of `glutathione

> > diabetes.' How about Type G Diabetes :-)?

> >

> > I have tried whey protein several times, and had such a powerful

> > negative response that I had to stop. In the mean while I have added

> > several new treatments, and have just started using whey again and

> > this

> > time it is working, in fact significantly. I believe that the problem

> > with just using whey is that the GSH issue is complex. As Rich has

> > been

> > saying repeatedly now, we have bio-individual blockages in the

> > glutathione pathway and a type of vicious circle effect results.

> >

> > Here is what I have had to add to finally get the whey protein to work

> > for me, hopefully building GSH finally. Each of these has a different

> > hypothetical effect on the GSH production. My goal is not to

> > supplement

> > with glutathione directly, but to help my body produce GSH again by

> > itself.

>

> Ah, that does seem to be the Holy Grail. Unfortunately, we (meaning

> Rich, mostly) are only now beginning to understand how the system

> works in enough detail to guess about how that might happen. And it's

> starting to become evident that there's a lot of genetic stuff

> involved that may simply not be curable -- especially if you've been

> sick a long time, and your organs have also sustained irreversible

> damage.

>

> In that context, any " cure " will at best be a workaround. Exogenous

> GSH is one very promising work-around. But if I ever get to thinking

> I'll ever lead a 100% " normal " life without it (and the hundred other

> things I do to sustain health), somebody send a search party, because

> I'll be living in la-la land. It could happen -- but I'm not going to

> sit by and wait for the day. Been there, done that, lost 20 years.

>

> I do variants of most of the stuff on your list -- my own list would

> certainly be at least as long, if not longer. And, as you say, I

> probably wouldn't have handled the GSH nearly as well if I hadn't

> been working up to it for years on all these other fronts first.

>

> > After ALL of this, the Whey is now working. So if whey does not work

> > for a PWC, they may need to go to work finding blocks and necessary

> > adjunct therapies.

>

> I don't know if you've seen Rich's sequence of recommended

> supplements for unblocking methylation, but it's pretty impressive.

> His notion that these blocks may be genetic proceeded from the

> observation that some of us couldn't just move from one to the next,

> unlocking the doors in sequence. Some of the doors opened easily with

> the right chemical key; others stubbornly refused to budge (and

> forcing it made us worse). On further investigation, he realized that

> there were specific genetic reasons these certain doors stayed closed.

>

> It appears that I've got a big fat genetic anomaly (SNP) blocking my

> methylation channel. If there's a way to re-engineer that, I'm not

> yet aware of it. So I do an end-run around it, by using exogenous

> forms of glutathione instead.

>

> > There are probably many more things that could be done, but for now

> > this

> > is helping me make progress. The realization that these treatments,

> > many of which I discovered independently of the GSH hypothesis, can

> > all

> > be connected to the support of GSH levels has been quite a

> > revelation to

> > me.

>

> Everything seems to tie back into it somehow -- from the CDC's recent

> announcement on gene anomalies (which was right alongside the stuff

> Rich was already figuring out on his own), to Dr. Cheney's heart

> hypothesis, to various viral and hormonal approaches used by other

> doctors. Dig deep enough -- and every symptom, every treatment links

> into GSH in one way or another.

>

> > So nice to have a common thread, a way to organize my thinking

> > about this illness. But of course, there are probably other

> > subsets in

> > CFS, other issues that will not respond to GSH building, and must be

> > separately treated, such as hypercoag, adrenal problems and Lyme/Babs,

> > but probably those are helped by GSH building.

>

> You got it. GSH is key to immune function. It enables the body to

> handle -- and possibly render harmless -- stuff like Lyme,

> mycoplasma, and so on. Hypercoagulation relates to reduced blood

> volume and poor microcirculation, which brings us back to the heart

> issues, which are remedied by adequate GSH levels in the heart

> muscle. Like I said: all roads lead back to it.

>

> Adrenal problems may be an exception. (Or not. I'm sure somebody will

> chime in with the link.) My adrenals have been so shot for so long

> now that there's scant hope of ever bringing them fully back on line.

> On the other hand, GSH does restore circulation and reduce toxin

> load, which ensures that I'll make the very best of what little I've

> got, and avoid further damage in the bargain. I'll take it.

>

> > AS far as Sara's comment that nobody gets cured from CFS, that may be

> > true, but many people have put CFS into remission, and can live a

> > nearly

> > ordinary life again.

>

> I'm one of them. I've conquered sleep problems, allergies, FM, brain

> fog, organ damage, and secondary infections -- all of which used to

> dog me in my worst years. I'd be damn near normal now (well, as

> normal as someone who's taking several dozen drugs a day can be) if I

> could get my post-exertional malaise to go away. It's the only thing

> left -- and it's getting progressively worse over time, even as the

> rest of me continues to get better.

>

> GSH is even helping some with this. Day to day, as my GSH rose, I

> could feel my heart working relaxed and steady, less ready to go into

> palpitations. It's more comfortable and happy in my chest. But I'm

> still wiped out if I take it much over 120 bpm, even for half a

> minute -- and that's not getting better. Given my horrible family

> history of early death due to virally-induced congestive heart

> failure, this is not a good sign.

>

> (I'm still badgering my doctors on this -- am gearing up for a new

> assault when I get back from Greece. But doctors are notorious for

> misdiagnosing even common forms of heart disease in women, let alone

> " boutique " ones like our diastolic issues. I'm afraid I'm falling

> through that crack.)

>

> > I believe that is a worthy goal and is possible for many of us, if

> > not most of us…

>

> I agree. But it's not a CURE, which seems to be what a lot of people

> here are holding out for. We're not going to be cured -- not with

> anything currently available, anyway. The best we can hope for is

> safe, sane, personally-tuned management strategies that restore most

> of what we had before.

>

> > And unlike diabetics, we seem able to restore the hormone

> > production that is broken, if we can track down

> > our blocks.

>

> And fix them -- which some of us can do, but others of us cannot.

> (Not, at least, until we get better at genetic engineering. The

> current US bans on stem cell research are hurting US, people!)

>

> > I have not had the genetic testing yet, but did have a

> > liver function test that suggested the mercury block, and I think that

> > is a quite useful test for PWC.

>

> GSH will go a long way toward moving the mercury out, given time.

>

> > I am also trying-out some of the Kirkman products for supporting the

> > methylation cycle. And plan to add lipo glutathione eventually as

> > well.

>

> Lipo is great stuff. So great, in fact, that I'm about to do a two-

> week test: going off the injections and relying on lipo alone while

> on a high-stress trip. It seems very possible that I'll discover I

> don't need the injections at all, even in the face of crash-inducing

> stress. Which will make me happy from the bottom of my bottom (as

> well as my wallet -- with the cost savings, I could go to Greece

> every year!) if it proves true.

>

> Sara

>

June 22, 2006

Hi, Dan.

When Sara used the term " drugs, " I think she meant nutritional

supplements, i.e. orthomolecular substances, moreso than xenobiotics

(pharmaceutical drugs). It's true that some pharmaceuticals do

place demands on glutathione. A common example is acetaminophen,

which is responsible for many cases of liver failure because of

glutathione depletion. Some are due to intentional suicide

attempts, but many are overdoses in an attempt to relieve pain. A

study was just reported on this recently.

Morphine also depletes glutathione.

One hypothesis I have is that the people who succumb in critical

care units in which the cause of death is judged to be sepsis or

multiple organ failure have been fatally depleted in glutathione.

This is partly because of the drugs that are given to combat other

problems (infection, pain), and partly because the I.V. nutrition

given does not include cysteine, the rate-limiting amino acid for

making glutathione. I think the body just eventually runs so low on

glutathione that the immune system cannot prevent widespread

infection, and the mitochondria in the cells of various organs go

into dysfunction because of blocks in the Krebs cycle and the

respiratory chain that result from the rise of reactive oxygen

speciesm, secondary to glutathione depletion there. The reason

there is multiple organ failure, I believe, is that the organs share

their supplies of glutathione via the blood stream.

The lungs are particularly vulnerable, as in acute respiratory

distress syndrome or ARDS, which affects many people in critical

care. I think the lungs get glutathione from the other organs

because they need it badly. If the person is able to pull out of

it, well and good. If not, the glutathione levels eventually go so

low in the immune system and the other vital organs that widespread

infection ensues in the blood stream, and several of the organs shut

down. This would explain why the problems become so widespread in

these cases.

Rich

> >

> > > I agree, and even have also been thinking about the diabetes

metaphor

> > > for some time now, how glutathione is to CFS as insulin is to

> > > diabetics.

> > > A VERY apt metaphor I think. As if CFS is a type of

`glutathione

> > > diabetes.' How about Type G Diabetes :-)?

> > >

> > > I have tried whey protein several times, and had such a

powerful

> > > negative response that I had to stop. In the mean while I

have added

> > > several new treatments, and have just started using whey again

and

> > > this

> > > time it is working, in fact significantly. I believe that the

problem

> > > with just using whey is that the GSH issue is complex. As

Rich has

> > > been

> > > saying repeatedly now, we have bio-individual blockages in the

> > > glutathione pathway and a type of vicious circle effect

results.

> > >

> > > Here is what I have had to add to finally get the whey protein

to work

> > > for me, hopefully building GSH finally. Each of these has a

different

> > > hypothetical effect on the GSH production. My goal is not to

> > > supplement

> > > with glutathione directly, but to help my body produce GSH

again by

> > > itself.

> >

> > Ah, that does seem to be the Holy Grail. Unfortunately, we

(meaning

> > Rich, mostly) are only now beginning to understand how the

system

> > works in enough detail to guess about how that might happen. And

it's

> > starting to become evident that there's a lot of genetic stuff

> > involved that may simply not be curable -- especially if you've

been

> > sick a long time, and your organs have also sustained

irreversible

> > damage.

> >

> > In that context, any " cure " will at best be a workaround.

Exogenous

> > GSH is one very promising work-around. But if I ever get to

thinking

> > I'll ever lead a 100% " normal " life without it (and the hundred

other

> > things I do to sustain health), somebody send a search party,

because

> > I'll be living in la-la land. It could happen -- but I'm not

going to

> > sit by and wait for the day. Been there, done that, lost 20

years.

> >

> > I do variants of most of the stuff on your list -- my own list

would

> > certainly be at least as long, if not longer. And, as you say,

I

> > probably wouldn't have handled the GSH nearly as well if I

hadn't

> > been working up to it for years on all these other fronts first.

> >

> > > After ALL of this, the Whey is now working. So if whey does

not work

> > > for a PWC, they may need to go to work finding blocks and

necessary

> > > adjunct therapies.

> >

> > I don't know if you've seen Rich's sequence of recommended

> > supplements for unblocking methylation, but it's pretty

impressive.

> > His notion that these blocks may be genetic proceeded from the

> > observation that some of us couldn't just move from one to the

next,

> > unlocking the doors in sequence. Some of the doors opened easily

with

> > the right chemical key; others stubbornly refused to budge (and

> > forcing it made us worse). On further investigation, he realized

that

> > there were specific genetic reasons these certain doors stayed

closed.

> >

> > It appears that I've got a big fat genetic anomaly (SNP)

blocking my

> > methylation channel. If there's a way to re-engineer that, I'm

not

> > yet aware of it. So I do an end-run around it, by using

exogenous

> > forms of glutathione instead.

> >

> > > There are probably many more things that could be done, but

for now

> > > this

> > > is helping me make progress. The realization that these

treatments,

> > > many of which I discovered independently of the GSH

hypothesis, can

> > > all

> > > be connected to the support of GSH levels has been quite a

> > > revelation to

> > > me.

> >

> > Everything seems to tie back into it somehow -- from the CDC's

recent

> > announcement on gene anomalies (which was right alongside the

stuff

> > Rich was already figuring out on his own), to Dr. Cheney's

heart

> > hypothesis, to various viral and hormonal approaches used by

other

> > doctors. Dig deep enough -- and every symptom, every treatment

links

> > into GSH in one way or another.

> >

> > > So nice to have a common thread, a way to organize my thinking

> > > about this illness. But of course, there are probably other

> > > subsets in

> > > CFS, other issues that will not respond to GSH building, and

must be

> > > separately treated, such as hypercoag, adrenal problems and

Lyme/Babs,

> > > but probably those are helped by GSH building.

> >

> > You got it. GSH is key to immune function. It enables the body

to

> > handle -- and possibly render harmless -- stuff like Lyme,

> > mycoplasma, and so on. Hypercoagulation relates to reduced

blood

> > volume and poor microcirculation, which brings us back to the

heart

> > issues, which are remedied by adequate GSH levels in the heart

> > muscle. Like I said: all roads lead back to it.

> >

> > Adrenal problems may be an exception. (Or not. I'm sure somebody

will

> > chime in with the link.) My adrenals have been so shot for so

long

> > now that there's scant hope of ever bringing them fully back on

line.

> > On the other hand, GSH does restore circulation and reduce

toxin

> > load, which ensures that I'll make the very best of what little

I've

> > got, and avoid further damage in the bargain. I'll take it.

> >

> > > AS far as Sara's comment that nobody gets cured from CFS, that

may be

> > > true, but many people have put CFS into remission, and can

live a

> > > nearly

> > > ordinary life again.

> >

> > I'm one of them. I've conquered sleep problems, allergies, FM,

brain

> > fog, organ damage, and secondary infections -- all of which used

to

> > dog me in my worst years. I'd be damn near normal now (well, as

> > normal as someone who's taking several dozen drugs a day can be)

if I

> > could get my post-exertional malaise to go away. It's the only

thing

> > left -- and it's getting progressively worse over time, even as

the

> > rest of me continues to get better.

> >

> > GSH is even helping some with this. Day to day, as my GSH rose,

I

> > could feel my heart working relaxed and steady, less ready to go

into

> > palpitations. It's more comfortable and happy in my chest. But

I'm

> > still wiped out if I take it much over 120 bpm, even for half a

> > minute -- and that's not getting better. Given my horrible

family

> > history of early death due to virally-induced congestive heart

> > failure, this is not a good sign.

> >

> > (I'm still badgering my doctors on this -- am gearing up for a

new

> > assault when I get back from Greece. But doctors are notorious

for

> > misdiagnosing even common forms of heart disease in women, let

alone

> > " boutique " ones like our diastolic issues. I'm afraid I'm

falling

> > through that crack.)

> >

> > > I believe that is a worthy goal and is possible for many of

us, if

> > > not most of us…

> >

> > I agree. But it's not a CURE, which seems to be what a lot of

people

> > here are holding out for. We're not going to be cured -- not

with

> > anything currently available, anyway. The best we can hope for

is

> > safe, sane, personally-tuned management strategies that restore

most

> > of what we had before.

> >

> > > And unlike diabetics, we seem able to restore the hormone

> > > production that is broken, if we can track down

> > > our blocks.

> >

> > And fix them -- which some of us can do, but others of us

cannot.

> > (Not, at least, until we get better at genetic engineering. The

> > current US bans on stem cell research are hurting US, people!)

> >

> > > I have not had the genetic testing yet, but did have a

> > > liver function test that suggested the mercury block, and I

think that

> > > is a quite useful test for PWC.

> >

> > GSH will go a long way toward moving the mercury out, given time.

> >

> > > I am also trying-out some of the Kirkman products for

supporting the

> > > methylation cycle. And plan to add lipo glutathione

eventually as

> > > well.

> >

> > Lipo is great stuff. So great, in fact, that I'm about to do a

two-

> > week test: going off the injections and relying on lipo alone

while

> > on a high-stress trip. It seems very possible that I'll discover

I

> > don't need the injections at all, even in the face of crash-

inducing

> > stress. Which will make me happy from the bottom of my bottom

(as

> > well as my wallet -- with the cost savings, I could go to

Greece

> > every year!) if it proves true.

> >

> > Sara

> >

>

June 22, 2006

> > >

> > > > I agree, and even have also been thinking about the diabetes

> metaphor

> > > > for some time now, how glutathione is to CFS as insulin is to

> > > > diabetics.

> > > > A VERY apt metaphor I think. As if CFS is a type of

> `glutathione

> > > > diabetes.' How about Type G Diabetes :-)?

> > > >

> > > > I have tried whey protein several times, and had such a

> powerful

> > > > negative response that I had to stop. In the mean while I

> have added

> > > > several new treatments, and have just started using whey again

> and

> > > > this

> > > > time it is working, in fact significantly. I believe that the

> problem

> > > > with just using whey is that the GSH issue is complex. As

> Rich has

> > > > been

> > > > saying repeatedly now, we have bio-individual blockages in the

> > > > glutathione pathway and a type of vicious circle effect

> results.

> > > >

> > > > Here is what I have had to add to finally get the whey protein

> to work

> > > > for me, hopefully building GSH finally. Each of these has a

> different

> > > > hypothetical effect on the GSH production. My goal is not to

> > > > supplement

> > > > with glutathione directly, but to help my body produce GSH

> again by

> > > > itself.

> > >

> > > Ah, that does seem to be the Holy Grail. Unfortunately, we

> (meaning

> > > Rich, mostly) are only now beginning to understand how the

> system

> > > works in enough detail to guess about how that might happen. And

> it's

> > > starting to become evident that there's a lot of genetic stuff

> > > involved that may simply not be curable -- especially if you've

> been

> > > sick a long time, and your organs have also sustained

> irreversible

> > > damage.

> > >

> > > In that context, any " cure " will at best be a workaround.

> Exogenous

> > > GSH is one very promising work-around. But if I ever get to

> thinking

> > > I'll ever lead a 100% " normal " life without it (and the hundred

> other

> > > things I do to sustain health), somebody send a search party,

> because

> > > I'll be living in la-la land. It could happen -- but I'm not

> going to

> > > sit by and wait for the day. Been there, done that, lost 20

> years.

> > >

> > > I do variants of most of the stuff on your list -- my own list

> would

> > > certainly be at least as long, if not longer. And, as you say,

> I

> > > probably wouldn't have handled the GSH nearly as well if I

> hadn't

> > > been working up to it for years on all these other fronts first.

> > >

> > > > After ALL of this, the Whey is now working. So if whey does

> not work

> > > > for a PWC, they may need to go to work finding blocks and

> necessary

> > > > adjunct therapies.

> > >

> > > I don't know if you've seen Rich's sequence of recommended

> > > supplements for unblocking methylation, but it's pretty

> impressive.

> > > His notion that these blocks may be genetic proceeded from the

> > > observation that some of us couldn't just move from one to the

> next,

> > > unlocking the doors in sequence. Some of the doors opened easily

> with

> > > the right chemical key; others stubbornly refused to budge (and

> > > forcing it made us worse). On further investigation, he realized

> that

> > > there were specific genetic reasons these certain doors stayed

> closed.

> > >

> > > It appears that I've got a big fat genetic anomaly (SNP)

> blocking my

> > > methylation channel. If there's a way to re-engineer that, I'm

> not

> > > yet aware of it. So I do an end-run around it, by using

> exogenous

> > > forms of glutathione instead.

> > >

> > > > There are probably many more things that could be done, but

> for now

> > > > this

> > > > is helping me make progress. The realization that these

> treatments,

> > > > many of which I discovered independently of the GSH

> hypothesis, can

> > > > all

> > > > be connected to the support of GSH levels has been quite a

> > > > revelation to

> > > > me.

> > >

> > > Everything seems to tie back into it somehow -- from the CDC's

> recent

> > > announcement on gene anomalies (which was right alongside the

> stuff

> > > Rich was already figuring out on his own), to Dr. Cheney's

> heart

> > > hypothesis, to various viral and hormonal approaches used by

> other

> > > doctors. Dig deep enough -- and every symptom, every treatment

> links

> > > into GSH in one way or another.

> > >

> > > > So nice to have a common thread, a way to organize my thinking

> > > > about this illness. But of course, there are probably other

> > > > subsets in

> > > > CFS, other issues that will not respond to GSH building, and

> must be

> > > > separately treated, such as hypercoag, adrenal problems and

> Lyme/Babs,

> > > > but probably those are helped by GSH building.

> > >

> > > You got it. GSH is key to immune function. It enables the body

> to

> > > handle -- and possibly render harmless -- stuff like Lyme,

> > > mycoplasma, and so on. Hypercoagulation relates to reduced

> blood

> > > volume and poor microcirculation, which brings us back to the

> heart

> > > issues, which are remedied by adequate GSH levels in the heart

> > > muscle. Like I said: all roads lead back to it.

> > >

> > > Adrenal problems may be an exception. (Or not. I'm sure somebody

> will

> > > chime in with the link.) My adrenals have been so shot for so

> long

> > > now that there's scant hope of ever bringing them fully back on

> line.

> > > On the other hand, GSH does restore circulation and reduce

> toxin

> > > load, which ensures that I'll make the very best of what little

> I've

> > > got, and avoid further damage in the bargain. I'll take it.

> > >

> > > > AS far as Sara's comment that nobody gets cured from CFS, that

> may be

> > > > true, but many people have put CFS into remission, and can

> live a

> > > > nearly

> > > > ordinary life again.

> > >

> > > I'm one of them. I've conquered sleep problems, allergies, FM,

> brain

> > > fog, organ damage, and secondary infections -- all of which used

> to

> > > dog me in my worst years. I'd be damn near normal now (well, as

> > > normal as someone who's taking several dozen drugs a day can be)

> if I

> > > could get my post-exertional malaise to go away. It's the only

> thing

> > > left -- and it's getting progressively worse over time, even as

> the

> > > rest of me continues to get better.

> > >

> > > GSH is even helping some with this. Day to day, as my GSH rose,

> I

> > > could feel my heart working relaxed and steady, less ready to go

> into

> > > palpitations. It's more comfortable and happy in my chest. But

> I'm

> > > still wiped out if I take it much over 120 bpm, even for half a

> > > minute -- and that's not getting better. Given my horrible

> family

> > > history of early death due to virally-induced congestive heart

> > > failure, this is not a good sign.

> > >

> > > (I'm still badgering my doctors on this -- am gearing up for a

> new

> > > assault when I get back from Greece. But doctors are notorious

> for

> > > misdiagnosing even common forms of heart disease in women, let

> alone

> > > " boutique " ones like our diastolic issues. I'm afraid I'm

> falling

> > > through that crack.)

> > >

> > > > I believe that is a worthy goal and is possible for many of

> us, if

> > > > not most of us…

> > >

> > > I agree. But it's not a CURE, which seems to be what a lot of

> people

> > > here are holding out for. We're not going to be cured -- not

> with

> > > anything currently available, anyway. The best we can hope for

> is

> > > safe, sane, personally-tuned management strategies that restore

> most

> > > of what we had before.

> > >

> > > > And unlike diabetics, we seem able to restore the hormone

> > > > production that is broken, if we can track down

> > > > our blocks.

> > >

> > > And fix them -- which some of us can do, but others of us

> cannot.

> > > (Not, at least, until we get better at genetic engineering. The

> > > current US bans on stem cell research are hurting US, people!)

> > >

> > > > I have not had the genetic testing yet, but did have a

> > > > liver function test that suggested the mercury block, and I

> think that

> > > > is a quite useful test for PWC.

> > >

> > > GSH will go a long way toward moving the mercury out, given time.

> > >

> > > > I am also trying-out some of the Kirkman products for

> supporting the

> > > > methylation cycle. And plan to add lipo glutathione

> eventually as

> > > > well.

> > >

> > > Lipo is great stuff. So great, in fact, that I'm about to do a

> two-

> > > week test: going off the injections and relying on lipo alone

> while

> > > on a high-stress trip. It seems very possible that I'll discover

> I

> > > don't need the injections at all, even in the face of crash-

> inducing

> > > stress. Which will make me happy from the bottom of my bottom

> (as

> > > well as my wallet -- with the cost savings, I could go to

> Greece

> > > every year!) if it proves true.

> > >

> > > Sara

> > >

> >