Re: Is there such a thing as dead mold?

[Guest guest]

Yes, live mold creats problems but no where near the problems possible

with live mold. Just talk to some people sick with infection of live

mold, bleeding lungs, etc. They never get better... just hope to keep

it 'at bay' as best they can. Don't ever believe live mold/dead mold,

makes no difference. Makes huge difference, kill it if you can't

remove it immediately.

--- In , " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@h...>

wrote:

> Marcie,

>

> Your comment is an important one so bear with me as I clarify. The

> way dead or alive is defined for micro-organisms -- whether mold,

> bacteria or virus -- goes back to whether or not they are infectious.

>

>

[Guest guest]

barb1283,

Yes, fungal infections are horrific and they cannot happen if the

mold is dead. But dead mold also causes lots and lots of other

serious problems. So killing it is not enough. But if you do kill

it, what should he done with the dead mold? Especially if infection

is not the cause of the suffering?

If infection is the issue, kill it! Please! But if not, then only

killing does little and can even increase the exposure.

The other reason for emphasizing this point is that a focus only

killing mold increases the vulnerability of us to the shysters. They

manipulate facts and interpretations to play off our fears. Again, if

infection is the issue, then definitely kill it. Please! But please

don't stop there thinking the job is done.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

----

> Yes, live mold creats problems but no where near the problems possible

> with live mold. Just talk to some people sick with infection of live

> mold, bleeding lungs, etc. They never get better... just hope to keep

> it 'at bay' as best they can. Don't ever believe live mold/dead mold,

> makes no difference. Makes huge difference, kill it if you can't

> remove it immediately.

>

>

> > Marcie, > > Your comment is an important one so bear with me

> as I clarify. The > way dead or alive is defined for micro-organisms

> -- whether mold, > bacteria or virus -- goes back to whether or not

> they are infectious. > >

>

[Guest guest]

Carl, how do you effectively remove spores and fragments that are stubbornly

clinging to hair, skin and clothes?

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> escribió:Marcie,

Your comment is an important one so bear with me as I clarify. The

way dead or alive is defined for micro-organisms -- whether mold,

bacteria or virus -- goes back to whether or not they are infectious.

An infection is when the organism gets inside your body and

reproduces, creating " babies, " if you will, more rapidly than the

most prolific bunny. If the new organisms then create even more

" babies " and the immune system can't keep up, you are considered

seriously ill from an infection. Gradually, the immune system gains

on the reproductively obsessive mold, bacteria or virus bringing the

infection to an end -- if not you may die.

So for infections, it is vitally important to have the organism not

be able to reproduce. In fact, the definition for a dead organism is

that it can't reproduce. Aren't you glad that definition is not used

to define whether or not people are dead or alive. If it did then I

have been dead for over 30 years, the age of my last child!

How is death determined? On a culture plate in a lab. If a mold spore

doesn't grow in the the lab then it is dead. It may growt in the real

world but not in the different conditions in the lab. Or maybe it

didn't survive the collection and the trip to the lab. In fact, the

blindness of researchers used to be so great that they believed that

if nothing grew in the lab then no mold even existed. We and they

know better now.

There are sampling methods now that don't rely on growing spores on a

culture plate. Using a microscope, among other methods, a trained

mycologist can identify mold spores whether they are dead or alive.

They can count thousands of them, for example, yet none may grow on

the plate. Mold that can't reproduce definitely does exist, so with

this definition there is such a thing as dead mold.

Mold spores can also be dormant, just like lettuce or carrot seeds

from the garden supply store. Add water and they germinate, sprout

and begin growing into plants. That is what you describe in your e-

mail.

So we have mold that can reproduce, mold that is dormant and will

begin to reproduce if the environment changes and mold that can't

reproduce even under the most ideal conditions.

Now, just because mold is dead doesn't mean you won't react to it. It

doens't mean it is safe. Even though dead mold cannot be infectious

because it can't reproduce, infection is not the major concern.

Allergy, irritation and sensitivity reactions from proteins, glucans,

enzymes and mycotoxins contained in the spores and the fragments are

all factors. Jeff May has an article in next month's Indoor

Environment Connections about mites that live on mold. Are they an

allergen? The experts are just beginning to explore what all is

involved with mold spores, fragments and growing colonies.

All the above is why killing mold does absolutely nothing except stop

the slight opportunity for infection. It does not stop all the other

reactions from all the components of mold and the mites that love

them. In this sense, you are exactly correct that the presence of

spores (and fragments!) is still a concern.

This is also one of the the several justifications for EPA, ACGIH and

S520 not supporting the use of biocides including ozone to kill mold.

The exposure continues to occur. Mold still has to be removed so

remove it without the added expense of killing it first. Remove it

without exposing the workers and occupants and without spreading it

around the house. Remove the visible growth and the not-visible

spores and fragments. Remove the exposed mold and the hidden mold.

Remove all the mold.

However, because more spores are always in the air, they will grow in

the same spot unless the moisture source is removed. Test this by

setting out culture plates. Mold will grow on the plate but not on

the counter top the plate is sitting on. The environment that

supports rather than hinders mold growth must be altered. If not, new

growth will begin and all that has been gained is maybe a little

time.

There IS dead mold, but so what. You are still right that they are a

concern. And, I would add, so are the even more numerous fragments

from the whole mold organism.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl,

> There is no such thing as dead mold! If the spores exsist, when the

> conditions are right for it to grow, such as Stachybotrys, it will

> come back. If the spores are still present, they are still a concern

> and should be to everyone. Marcie

FAIR USE NOTICE:

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Carl,

Thanks for the reply. I got it!

This explains why my Immune System crashed. I just had my 4th IVIG treatment and

they had to increase the Immugammogoblin (sp) amount up to 42 grams instead of

30 grams. I get the Infusions once a month. I was exposed to large amounts of

Stachybotrys Mold and needless to say...I am extremely ill. I have talked to

K.C. over the phone for awhile now and he can tell you how sick I am. My voice

has never returned to normal. I also had MS before the exposure, so it hit me

pretty hard. Right now I am very concerned that I will not make it out of this

illness. I have been through 3 back surgeries, brain tumor removed and MS. Never

missed a day of work from the MS and went back to work only 5 and a half weeks

after brain surgery. I have always considered myself as a very strong person,

but this time.........? I worked in law enforcement for over 30 years and could

take down a big man. Now I can not even fight a butterfly. All I want is

to get better and get my 140 IQ back and get to

work. I live alone so I support myself. ( right now I feel like my IQ is

somewhere around 12 ) Or close to it!

I have been diagnosed with Granulomatous Disease all in my body. ( Fungus

growing and hard shells covering the mold are calcifying. A lot of pain.)

Again,thanks for the reply and take care. Even a " dead " mold spore scares me!

Marcie McGovern

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

Marcie,

Your comment is an important one so bear with me as I clarify. The

way dead or alive is defined for micro-organisms -- whether mold,

bacteria or virus -- goes back to whether or not they are infectious.

An infection is when the organism gets inside your body and

reproduces, creating " babies, " if you will, more rapidly than the

most prolific bunny. If the new organisms then create even more

" babies " and the immune system can't keep up, you are considered

seriously ill from an infection. Gradually, the immune system gains

on the reproductively obsessive mold, bacteria or virus bringing the

infection to an end -- if not you may die.

So for infections, it is vitally important to have the organism not

be able to reproduce. In fact, the definition for a dead organism is

that it can't reproduce. Aren't you glad that definition is not used

to define whether or not people are dead or alive. If it did then I

have been dead for over 30 years, the age of my last child!

How is death determined? On a culture plate in a lab. If a mold spore

doesn't grow in the the lab then it is dead. It may growt in the real

world but not in the different conditions in the lab. Or maybe it

didn't survive the collection and the trip to the lab. In fact, the

blindness of researchers used to be so great that they believed that

if nothing grew in the lab then no mold even existed. We and they

know better now.

There are sampling methods now that don't rely on growing spores on a

culture plate. Using a microscope, among other methods, a trained

mycologist can identify mold spores whether they are dead or alive.

They can count thousands of them, for example, yet none may grow on

the plate. Mold that can't reproduce definitely does exist, so with

this definition there is such a thing as dead mold.

Mold spores can also be dormant, just like lettuce or carrot seeds

from the garden supply store. Add water and they germinate, sprout

and begin growing into plants. That is what you describe in your e-

mail.

So we have mold that can reproduce, mold that is dormant and will

begin to reproduce if the environment changes and mold that can't

reproduce even under the most ideal conditions.

Now, just because mold is dead doesn't mean you won't react to it. It

doens't mean it is safe. Even though dead mold cannot be infectious

because it can't reproduce, infection is not the major concern.

Allergy, irritation and sensitivity reactions from proteins, glucans,

enzymes and mycotoxins contained in the spores and the fragments are

all factors. Jeff May has an article in next month's Indoor

Environment Connections about mites that live on mold. Are they an

allergen? The experts are just beginning to explore what all is

involved with mold spores, fragments and growing colonies.

All the above is why killing mold does absolutely nothing except stop

the slight opportunity for infection. It does not stop all the other

reactions from all the components of mold and the mites that love

them. In this sense, you are exactly correct that the presence of

spores (and fragments!) is still a concern.

This is also one of the the several justifications for EPA, ACGIH and

S520 not supporting the use of biocides including ozone to kill mold.

The exposure continues to occur. Mold still has to be removed so

remove it without the added expense of killing it first. Remove it

without exposing the workers and occupants and without spreading it

around the house. Remove the visible growth and the not-visible

spores and fragments. Remove the exposed mold and the hidden mold.

Remove all the mold.

However, because more spores are always in the air, they will grow in

the same spot unless the moisture source is removed. Test this by

setting out culture plates. Mold will grow on the plate but not on

the counter top the plate is sitting on. The environment that

supports rather than hinders mold growth must be altered. If not, new

growth will begin and all that has been gained is maybe a little

time.

There IS dead mold, but so what. You are still right that they are a

concern. And, I would add, so are the even more numerous fragments

from the whole mold organism.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl,

> There is no such thing as dead mold! If the spores exsist, when the

> conditions are right for it to grow, such as Stachybotrys, it will

> come back. If the spores are still present, they are still a concern

> and should be to everyone. Marcie

FAIR USE NOTICE:

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

MARCIE, WOULD U PLEASE DESCRIBE THE GRANULOMATOUS DISEASE? WHAT DOES THAT LOOK

LIKE, & WHATS SHOWING UP ON YOUR SKIN?

THANKS,

VICTORIA

Re: [] Is there such a thing as dead mold?

Carl,

Thanks for the reply. I got it!

This explains why my Immune System crashed. I just had my 4th IVIG treatment

and they had to increase the Immugammogoblin (sp) amount up to 42 grams instead

of 30 grams. I get the Infusions once a month. I was exposed to large amounts of

Stachybotrys Mold and needless to say...I am extremely ill. I have talked to

K.C. over the phone for awhile now and he can tell you how sick I am. My voice

has never returned to normal. I also had MS before the exposure, so it hit me

pretty hard. Right now I am very concerned that I will not make it out of this

illness. I have been through 3 back surgeries, brain tumor removed and MS. Never

missed a day of work from the MS and went back to work only 5 and a half weeks

after brain surgery. I have always considered myself as a very strong person,

but this time.........? I worked in law enforcement for over 30 years and could

take down a big man. Now I can not even fight a butterfly. All I want is

to get better and ge! t my 140 IQ back and get to

work. I live alone so I support myself. ( right now I feel like my IQ is

somewhere around 12 ) Or close to it!

I have been diagnosed with Granulomatous Disease all in my body. ( Fungus

growing and hard shells covering the mold are calcifying. A lot of pain.)

Again,thanks for the reply and take care. Even a " dead " mold spore scares me!

Marcie McGovern

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

Marcie,

Your comment is an important one so bear with me as I clarify. The

way dead or alive is defined for micro-organisms -- whether mold,

bacteria or virus -- goes back to whether or not they are infectious.

An infection is when the organism gets inside your body and

reproduces, creating " babies, " if you will, more rapidly than the

most prolific bunny. If the new organisms then create even more

" babies " and the immune system can't keep up, you are considered

seriously ill from an infection. Gradually, the immune system gains

on the reproductively obsessive mold, bacteria or virus bringing the

infection to an end -- if not you may die.

So for infections, it is vitally important to have the organism not

be able to reproduce. In fact, the definition for a dead organism is

that it can't reproduce. Aren't you glad that definition is not used

to define whether or not people are dead or alive. If it did then I

have been dead for over 30 years, the age of my last child!

How is death determined? On a culture plate in a lab. If a mold spore

doesn't grow in the the lab then it is dead. It may growt in the real

world but not in the different conditions in the lab. Or maybe it

didn't survive the collection and the trip to the lab. In fact, the

blindness of researchers used to be so great that they believed that

if nothing grew in the lab then no mold even existed. We and they

know better now.

There are sampling methods now that don't rely on growing spores on a

culture plate. Using a microscope, among other methods, a trained

mycologist can identify mold spores whether they are dead or alive.

They can count thousands of them, for example, yet none may grow on

the plate. Mold that can't reproduce definitely does exist, so with

this definition there is such a thing as dead mold.

Mold spores can also be dormant, just like lettuce or carrot seeds

from the garden supply store. Add water and they germinate, sprout

and begin growing into plants. That is what you describe in your e-

mail.

So we have mold that can reproduce, mold that is dormant and will

begin to reproduce if the environment changes and mold that can't

reproduce even under the most ideal conditions.

Now, just because mold is dead doesn't mean you won't react to it. It

doens't mean it is safe. Even though dead mold cannot be infectious

because it can't reproduce, infection is not the major concern.

Allergy, irritation and sensitivity reactions from proteins, glucans,

enzymes and mycotoxins contained in the spores and the fragments are

all factors. Jeff May has an article in next month's Indoor

Environment Connections about mites that live on mold. Are they an

allergen? The experts are just beginning to explore what all is

involved with mold spores, fragments and growing colonies.

All the above is why killing mold does absolutely nothing except stop

the slight opportunity for infection. It does not stop all the other

reactions from all the components of mold and the mites that love

them. In this sense, you are exactly correct that the presence of

spores (and fragments!) is still a concern.

This is also one of the the several justifications for EPA, ACGIH and

S520 not supporting the use of biocides including ozone to kill mold.

The exposure continues to occur. Mold still has to be removed so

remove it without the added expense of killing it first. Remove it

without exposing the workers and occupants and without spreading it

around the house. Remove the visible growth and the not-visible

spores and fragments. Remove the exposed mold and the hidden mold.

Remove all the mold.

However, because more spores are always in the air, they will grow in

the same spot unless the moisture source is removed. Test this by

setting out culture plates. Mold will grow on the plate but not on

the counter top the plate is sitting on. The environment that

supports rather than hinders mold growth must be altered. If not, new

growth will begin and all that has been gained is maybe a little

time.

There IS dead mold, but so what. You are still right that they are a

concern. And, I would add, so are the even more numerous fragments

from the whole mold organism.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl,

> There is no such thing as dead mold! If the spores exsist, when the

> conditions are right for it to grow, such as Stachybotrys, it will

> come back. If the spores are still present, they are still a concern

> and should be to everyone. Marcie

FAIR USE NOTICE:

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

,

I do not know what it looks like except from the views on my cat scan. It is in

my entire body. I do have small red lumps on face,back since my exposure to the

Stachybotrys on the day the remodel crew was " sweeping " the mold off the walls

with a broom and other tools they could find to " chunk " the plaster off and land

on the floor. I do know that my voice has not changed back to a normal voice

since that day. Before the remodel, I would start out fine with my voice but as

the day went on, my voice would deminish.

On one lump I had on my neck, I tried to stick it with a cleaned needle and my

entire neck swelled up and turned red and got stiff. I went to the doctor the

next day and found out I had a staff infection that quick.

Marcie

<toria@...> wrote:

MARCIE, WOULD U PLEASE DESCRIBE THE GRANULOMATOUS DISEASE? WHAT DOES THAT LOOK

LIKE, & WHATS SHOWING UP ON YOUR SKIN?

THANKS,

VICTORIA

Re: [] Is there such a thing as dead mold?

Carl,

Thanks for the reply. I got it!

This explains why my Immune System crashed. I just had my 4th IVIG treatment

and they had to increase the Immugammogoblin (sp) amount up to 42 grams instead

of 30 grams. I get the Infusions once a month. I was exposed to large amounts of

Stachybotrys Mold and needless to say...I am extremely ill. I have talked to

K.C. over the phone for awhile now and he can tell you how sick I am. My voice

has never returned to normal. I also had MS before the exposure, so it hit me

pretty hard. Right now I am very concerned that I will not make it out of this

illness. I have been through 3 back surgeries, brain tumor removed and MS. Never

missed a day of work from the MS and went back to work only 5 and a half weeks

after brain surgery. I have always considered myself as a very strong person,

but this time.........? I worked in law enforcement for over 30 years and could

take down a big man. Now I can not even fight a butterfly. All I want is

to get better and ge! t my 140 IQ back and get

to

work. I live alone so I support myself. ( right now I feel like my IQ is

somewhere around 12 ) Or close to it!

I have been diagnosed with Granulomatous Disease all in my body. ( Fungus

growing and hard shells covering the mold are calcifying. A lot of pain.)

Again,thanks for the reply and take care. Even a " dead " mold spore scares me!

Marcie McGovern

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

Marcie,

Your comment is an important one so bear with me as I clarify. The

way dead or alive is defined for micro-organisms -- whether mold,

bacteria or virus -- goes back to whether or not they are infectious.

An infection is when the organism gets inside your body and

reproduces, creating " babies, " if you will, more rapidly than the

most prolific bunny. If the new organisms then create even more

" babies " and the immune system can't keep up, you are considered

seriously ill from an infection. Gradually, the immune system gains

on the reproductively obsessive mold, bacteria or virus bringing the

infection to an end -- if not you may die.

So for infections, it is vitally important to have the organism not

be able to reproduce. In fact, the definition for a dead organism is

that it can't reproduce. Aren't you glad that definition is not used

to define whether or not people are dead or alive. If it did then I

have been dead for over 30 years, the age of my last child!

How is death determined? On a culture plate in a lab. If a mold spore

doesn't grow in the the lab then it is dead. It may growt in the real

world but not in the different conditions in the lab. Or maybe it

didn't survive the collection and the trip to the lab. In fact, the

blindness of researchers used to be so great that they believed that

if nothing grew in the lab then no mold even existed. We and they

know better now.

There are sampling methods now that don't rely on growing spores on a

culture plate. Using a microscope, among other methods, a trained

mycologist can identify mold spores whether they are dead or alive.

They can count thousands of them, for example, yet none may grow on

the plate. Mold that can't reproduce definitely does exist, so with

this definition there is such a thing as dead mold.

Mold spores can also be dormant, just like lettuce or carrot seeds

from the garden supply store. Add water and they germinate, sprout

and begin growing into plants. That is what you describe in your e-

mail.

So we have mold that can reproduce, mold that is dormant and will

begin to reproduce if the environment changes and mold that can't

reproduce even under the most ideal conditions.

Now, just because mold is dead doesn't mean you won't react to it. It

doens't mean it is safe. Even though dead mold cannot be infectious

because it can't reproduce, infection is not the major concern.

Allergy, irritation and sensitivity reactions from proteins, glucans,

enzymes and mycotoxins contained in the spores and the fragments are

all factors. Jeff May has an article in next month's Indoor

Environment Connections about mites that live on mold. Are they an

allergen? The experts are just beginning to explore what all is

involved with mold spores, fragments and growing colonies.

All the above is why killing mold does absolutely nothing except stop

the slight opportunity for infection. It does not stop all the other

reactions from all the components of mold and the mites that love

them. In this sense, you are exactly correct that the presence of

spores (and fragments!) is still a concern.

This is also one of the the several justifications for EPA, ACGIH and

S520 not supporting the use of biocides including ozone to kill mold.

The exposure continues to occur. Mold still has to be removed so

remove it without the added expense of killing it first. Remove it

without exposing the workers and occupants and without spreading it

around the house. Remove the visible growth and the not-visible

spores and fragments. Remove the exposed mold and the hidden mold.

Remove all the mold.

However, because more spores are always in the air, they will grow in

the same spot unless the moisture source is removed. Test this by

setting out culture plates. Mold will grow on the plate but not on

the counter top the plate is sitting on. The environment that

supports rather than hinders mold growth must be altered. If not, new

growth will begin and all that has been gained is maybe a little

time.

There IS dead mold, but so what. You are still right that they are a

concern. And, I would add, so are the even more numerous fragments

from the whole mold organism.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl,

> There is no such thing as dead mold! If the spores exsist, when the

> conditions are right for it to grow, such as Stachybotrys, it will

> come back. If the spores are still present, they are still a concern

> and should be to everyone. Marcie

FAIR USE NOTICE:

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

HI MARCIE--THANKS, LADY. I HAVE A PLACE THAT KEEPS RECURRING ON MY RT. WRIST,

THAT I WONDER ABOUT......BUT NO ANSWERS AT THIS TIME. :>( ITS LUMPY, SCALY,

SOMETIMES ITCHES--ONLY SINCE MY ONSET OF THIS HORRID ILLNESS & EXPOSURE TO THAT

BUILDING!) GO FIGURE.........

AND OMG!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY WERE " SWEEPING THE MOLD OFF THE WALLS????????????

WHAT A NIGHTMARE.....I'M BETTING YOU INHALED ALLLLLLLLLLL KINDS OF

SPORES....LIKE ME.

TAKE CARE, MARCIE, & I HOPE YOU FEEL BETTER SOONEST, ANYWAY.

VICTORIA

Re: [] Is there such a thing as dead mold?

Carl,

Thanks for the reply. I got it!

This explains why my Immune System crashed. I just had my 4th IVIG treatment

and they had to increase the Immugammogoblin (sp) amount up to 42 grams instead

of 30 grams. I get the Infusions once a month. I was exposed to large amounts of

Stachybotrys Mold and needless to say...I am extremely ill. I have talked to

K.C. over the phone for awhile now and he can tell you how sick I am. My voice

has never returned to normal. I also had MS before the exposure, so it hit me

pretty hard. Right now I am very concerned that I will not make it out of this

illness. I have been through 3 back surgeries, brain tumor removed and MS. Never

missed a day of work from the MS and went back to work only 5 and a half weeks

after brain surgery. I have always considered myself as a very strong person,

but this time.........? I worked in law enforcement for over 30 years and could

take down a big man. Now I can not even fight a butterfly. All I want is

to get better! and ge! t my 140 IQ back and get

to

work. I live alone so I support myself. ( right now I feel like my IQ is

somewhere around 12 ) Or close to it!

I have been diagnosed with Granulomatous Disease all in my body. ( Fungus

growing and hard shells covering the mold are calcifying. A lot of pain.)

Again,thanks for the reply and take care. Even a " dead " mold spore scares

me!

Marcie McGovern

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

Marcie,

Your comment is an important one so bear with me as I clarify. The

way dead or alive is defined for micro-organisms -- whether mold,

bacteria or virus -- goes back to whether or not they are infectious.

An infection is when the organism gets inside your body and

reproduces, creating " babies, " if you will, more rapidly than the

most prolific bunny. If the new organisms then create even more

" babies " and the immune system can't keep up, you are considered

seriously ill from an infection. Gradually, the immune system gains

on the reproductively obsessive mold, bacteria or virus bringing the

infection to an end -- if not you may die.

So for infections, it is vitally important to have the organism not

be able to reproduce. In fact, the definition for a dead organism is

that it can't reproduce. Aren't you glad that definition is not used

to define whether or not people are dead or alive. If it did then I

have been dead for over 30 years, the age of my last child!

How is death determined? On a culture plate in a lab. If a mold spore

doesn't grow in the the lab then it is dead. It may growt in the real

world but not in the different conditions in the lab. Or maybe it

didn't survive the collection and the trip to the lab. In fact, the

blindness of researchers used to be so great that they believed that

if nothing grew in the lab then no mold even existed. We and they

know better now.

There are sampling methods now that don't rely on growing spores on a

culture plate. Using a microscope, among other methods, a trained

mycologist can identify mold spores whether they are dead or alive.

They can count thousands of them, for example, yet none may grow on

the plate. Mold that can't reproduce definitely does exist, so with

this definition there is such a thing as dead mold.

Mold spores can also be dormant, just like lettuce or carrot seeds

from the garden supply store. Add water and they germinate, sprout

and begin growing into plants. That is what you describe in your e-

mail.

So we have mold that can reproduce, mold that is dormant and will

begin to reproduce if the environment changes and mold that can't

reproduce even under the most ideal conditions.

Now, just because mold is dead doesn't mean you won't react to it. It

doens't mean it is safe. Even though dead mold cannot be infectious

because it can't reproduce, infection is not the major concern.

Allergy, irritation and sensitivity reactions from proteins, glucans,

enzymes and mycotoxins contained in the spores and the fragments are

all factors. Jeff May has an article in next month's Indoor

Environment Connections about mites that live on mold. Are they an

allergen? The experts are just beginning to explore what all is

involved with mold spores, fragments and growing colonies.

All the above is why killing mold does absolutely nothing except stop

the slight opportunity for infection. It does not stop all the other

reactions from all the components of mold and the mites that love

them. In this sense, you are exactly correct that the presence of

spores (and fragments!) is still a concern.

This is also one of the the several justifications for EPA, ACGIH and

S520 not supporting the use of biocides including ozone to kill mold.

The exposure continues to occur. Mold still has to be removed so

remove it without the added expense of killing it first. Remove it

without exposing the workers and occupants and without spreading it

around the house. Remove the visible growth and the not-visible

spores and fragments. Remove the exposed mold and the hidden mold.

Remove all the mold.

However, because more spores are always in the air, they will grow in

the same spot unless the moisture source is removed. Test this by

setting out culture plates. Mold will grow on the plate but not on

the counter top the plate is sitting on. The environment that

supports rather than hinders mold growth must be altered. If not, new

growth will begin and all that has been gained is maybe a little

time.

There IS dead mold, but so what. You are still right that they are a

concern. And, I would add, so are the even more numerous fragments

from the whole mold organism.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl,

> There is no such thing as dead mold! If the spores exsist, when the

> conditions are right for it to grow, such as Stachybotrys, it will

> come back. If the spores are still present, they are still a concern

> and should be to everyone. Marcie

FAIR USE NOTICE:

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Marcie,

The red welts on your face was due to staph infection or the effects

of sticking pin in it?? I'm amazed at how easily it can be to get a

staph infection and how nasty they can be. A man down the street

said his wife had one in her leg or knee or something and she could

lose her leg or foot or something if she wasn't careful about cuts

to her skin and the like. She is in her 70's. I've never heard of

such a thing before, losing a limb to a staph infection and cutting

yourself could make such a difference!! He says he keeps warning

her to be more careful. Before doing anything that breaks the skin,

do rub with rubbing alcohol or similar. I do scratch my skin though

without anything handy to treat with. Perhaps she has other health

problems that makes her get them so easily. It really was a

frightening story to me.

> ,

> I do not know what it looks like except from the views on my cat

scan. It is in my entire body. I do have small red lumps on

face,back since my exposure to the Stachybotrys on the day the

remodel crew was " sweeping " the mold off the walls with a broom and

other tools they could find to " chunk " the plaster off and land on

the floor. I do know that my voice has not

[Guest guest]

,

Just got a great letter in the mail Saturday, telling me my job was no longer

available. Gee...why am I not surprised. : 0

Had another IVIG yesterday and this will most likely be my last one, since I

lost my insurance too! Zero, Zip income as of 07/08/2005.

The worst part is my AC unit went out at my house. It was 102 degrees inside my

house on July 3rd. Phew! With my MS it really gets me down.

I am still praying that things will get better....I have hit the bottom as they

say.

Hope you are feeling better,

Sincerely,

Marcie

<toria@...> wrote:

HI MARCIE--THANKS, LADY. I HAVE A PLACE THAT KEEPS RECURRING ON MY RT. WRIST,

THAT I WONDER ABOUT......BUT NO ANSWERS AT THIS TIME. :>( ITS LUMPY, SCALY,

SOMETIMES ITCHES--ONLY SINCE MY ONSET OF THIS HORRID ILLNESS & EXPOSURE TO THAT

BUILDING!) GO FIGURE.........

AND OMG!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY WERE " SWEEPING THE MOLD OFF THE WALLS????????????

WHAT A NIGHTMARE.....I'M BETTING YOU INHALED ALLLLLLLLLLL KINDS OF

SPORES....LIKE ME.

TAKE CARE, MARCIE, & I HOPE YOU FEEL BETTER SOONEST, ANYWAY.

VICTORIA

Re: [] Is there such a thing as dead mold?

Carl,

Thanks for the reply. I got it!

This explains why my Immune System crashed. I just had my 4th IVIG treatment

and they had to increase the Immugammogoblin (sp) amount up to 42 grams instead

of 30 grams. I get the Infusions once a month. I was exposed to large amounts of

Stachybotrys Mold and needless to say...I am extremely ill. I have talked to

K.C. over the phone for awhile now and he can tell you how sick I am. My voice

has never returned to normal. I also had MS before the exposure, so it hit me

pretty hard. Right now I am very concerned that I will not make it out of this

illness. I have been through 3 back surgeries, brain tumor removed and MS. Never

missed a day of work from the MS and went back to work only 5 and a half weeks

after brain surgery. I have always considered myself as a very strong person,

but this time.........? I worked in law enforcement for over 30 years and could

take down a big man. Now I can not even fight a butterfly. All I want is

to get better! and ge! t my 140 IQ back and

get

to

work. I live alone so I support myself. ( right now I feel like my IQ is

somewhere around 12 ) Or close to it!

I have been diagnosed with Granulomatous Disease all in my body. ( Fungus

growing and hard shells covering the mold are calcifying. A lot of pain.)

Again,thanks for the reply and take care. Even a " dead " mold spore scares

me!

Marcie McGovern

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

Marcie,

Your comment is an important one so bear with me as I clarify. The

way dead or alive is defined for micro-organisms -- whether mold,

bacteria or virus -- goes back to whether or not they are infectious.

An infection is when the organism gets inside your body and

reproduces, creating " babies, " if you will, more rapidly than the

most prolific bunny. If the new organisms then create even more

" babies " and the immune system can't keep up, you are considered

seriously ill from an infection. Gradually, the immune system gains

on the reproductively obsessive mold, bacteria or virus bringing the

infection to an end -- if not you may die.

So for infections, it is vitally important to have the organism not

be able to reproduce. In fact, the definition for a dead organism is

that it can't reproduce. Aren't you glad that definition is not used

to define whether or not people are dead or alive. If it did then I

have been dead for over 30 years, the age of my last child!

How is death determined? On a culture plate in a lab. If a mold spore

doesn't grow in the the lab then it is dead. It may growt in the real

world but not in the different conditions in the lab. Or maybe it

didn't survive the collection and the trip to the lab. In fact, the

blindness of researchers used to be so great that they believed that

if nothing grew in the lab then no mold even existed. We and they

know better now.

There are sampling methods now that don't rely on growing spores on a

culture plate. Using a microscope, among other methods, a trained

mycologist can identify mold spores whether they are dead or alive.

They can count thousands of them, for example, yet none may grow on

the plate. Mold that can't reproduce definitely does exist, so with

this definition there is such a thing as dead mold.

Mold spores can also be dormant, just like lettuce or carrot seeds

from the garden supply store. Add water and they germinate, sprout

and begin growing into plants. That is what you describe in your e-

mail.

So we have mold that can reproduce, mold that is dormant and will

begin to reproduce if the environment changes and mold that can't

reproduce even under the most ideal conditions.

Now, just because mold is dead doesn't mean you won't react to it. It

doens't mean it is safe. Even though dead mold cannot be infectious

because it can't reproduce, infection is not the major concern.

Allergy, irritation and sensitivity reactions from proteins, glucans,

enzymes and mycotoxins contained in the spores and the fragments are

all factors. Jeff May has an article in next month's Indoor

Environment Connections about mites that live on mold. Are they an

allergen? The experts are just beginning to explore what all is

involved with mold spores, fragments and growing colonies.

All the above is why killing mold does absolutely nothing except stop

the slight opportunity for infection. It does not stop all the other

reactions from all the components of mold and the mites that love

them. In this sense, you are exactly correct that the presence of

spores (and fragments!) is still a concern.

This is also one of the the several justifications for EPA, ACGIH and

S520 not supporting the use of biocides including ozone to kill mold.

The exposure continues to occur. Mold still has to be removed so

remove it without the added expense of killing it first. Remove it

without exposing the workers and occupants and without spreading it

around the house. Remove the visible growth and the not-visible

spores and fragments. Remove the exposed mold and the hidden mold.

Remove all the mold.

However, because more spores are always in the air, they will grow in

the same spot unless the moisture source is removed. Test this by

setting out culture plates. Mold will grow on the plate but not on

the counter top the plate is sitting on. The environment that

supports rather than hinders mold growth must be altered. If not, new

growth will begin and all that has been gained is maybe a little

time.

There IS dead mold, but so what. You are still right that they are a

concern. And, I would add, so are the even more numerous fragments

from the whole mold organism.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl,

> There is no such thing as dead mold! If the spores exsist, when the

> conditions are right for it to grow, such as Stachybotrys, it will

> come back. If the spores are still present, they are still a concern

> and should be to everyone. Marcie

FAIR USE NOTICE:

---------------------------------