Re: Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

[Guest guest]

Metronidazole and tinidazole (like most abx) can be bacteriostatic or

bactericidal depending on the dose and the micro-organism that is being

targeted. Their metabolites interfere with the bug's DNA. They are one of the

few abx that has very good activity against anaerobic bacteria.

Some abx like the penicillins and the cephalosporins kill the bugs by destroying

their cell-walls as they are developing, and are therefore considered

bactericidal, others like the cyclines and the macrolides tend to just stop the

bugs from replicating (bacteriostatic effect) by interfering with ribosome

function

Nelly

Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

Hi Nil,

The cpn bug has 3 forms and it can change into any of the 3:-

EB - this form exists in the blood stream looking for cells to infect.

It can be killed with either the antibiotic Amoxycillin or the

supplement you can buy in a health food store called NAC.

RB - once an EB finds a cell, it enters the cell and becomes an

intracellular RB, meaning that your immune system cannot detect it.

When in the cell, it replicates, releasing further EBs into the blood

stream and steals ATP from the cell, giving the classic fatigue as in

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. The cell cannot do the job it is supposed to

as the cpn bug is feeding off the ATP energy. The cell involved could

be an immune system cell, heart, liver, muscle, etc.

At this stage two further antibiotics are given - Doxycycline and

Azithromycin (or Roxithromycin). Once these antibiotics are given,

some of the RBs are forced into the hibernation stage to protect

themselves (Cryptic stage). The other RB's that are not developed

enough to go cryptic, die.

Cryptic - When in this hibernation stage, it is hidden from your immune

system and is immune to most antibiotics except Bacteriostatics

including Flagyl and Tinidazole. Unfortunately, even though it is in

hibernation mode, it is continuing to use your cell's ATP.

One of the reasons many people with CFS have trouble with the reactions

to antibiotcs, could be that the antibiotic is doing it's job, and that

the reaction could be a herx reaction.

Please look at this website - www.cpnhelp.org

This is all cutting edge research and most doctors know nothing about

this - even experts on the CPN bug.

Dr Stratton at Vanderbilt found the link between cpn and CFS in the

1990s but because at the time CFS was labelled a pshyciatric issue and

not physical, this research was never published in medical journals -

Politics at it's best (or worst). He found that 100% (ONE HUNDRED

PERCENT) of the CFS blood samples he was sent, had cpn infection.

See this link:-

http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/7938/searchtext/

Chlamydia%20Pneumoniae/

Stratton has once again started his research into cpn at his lab at

Vanderbilt University.

Experts including Dr Stratton, Dr and UK Dr Wheldon are

finding links between cpn and many other illnesses other than CFS.

IMO if you have CFS, it is worth looking at the cpnhelp site, and bear

in mind that if you do have cpn infection, taking just one antibiotic

will not work, you need to take 3 and the protocol on the cpnhelp site

that my partner is taking, lasts for up to 5 years - that is how long

it may take to erradicate this infection.

Food for thought.

Thanks,

Mark Hall

>

> i was also infected with cpn once.1 set of antibiotics was given and

no further checks were done. is it important? do i have to work on it?

> bw

> Nil

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

Hi Mark

Thanks for your answer. I checked the links.I made some reading at web and saw

that it was said that about 50 percent of normal population gets infected by CP

at least once in their lives.

so I am wondering what that means.if 50 percent of the population is infected

with it once in their lives than can we say that it is an infection that our CFS

bodies can not overcome whereas normal people can overcome it.

Dr Stratton at Vanderbilt found the link between cpn and CFS in the

1990s but because at the time CFS was labelled a pshyciatric issue and

not physical, this research was never published in medical journals -

Politics at it's best (or worst). He found that 100% (ONE HUNDRED

PERCENT) of the CFS blood samples he was sent, had cpn infection.

this is very important claim.are you all checked for CP? still I have the same

question on mind. does that mean CP is causing CFS or does it mean we can not

overcome this bug because of our depressed immune system.

bw

nil

[Guest guest]

Excellent information! I read over someone else's Kenny De Meirleir notes after

looking over the Cpn site, and I noticed that he mentions this as well, though

he says viruses may be reactivated in ME/CFS and that he uses azithromycin as

treatment - but that wouldn't be sufficient would it, according to what I read

on the site it is only treating part of the problem?

Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

> Thanks for your answer. I checked the links.I made some reading at

> web and saw that it was said that about 50 percent of normal

> population gets infected by CP at least once in their lives.

Yes, they say that by the age of 60, most people have the cpn bug in

their blood.

> so I am wondering what that means.if 50 percent of the population

> is infected with it once in their lives than can we say that it is

> an infection that our CFS bodies can not overcome whereas normal

> people can overcome it.

I think it is a genetic factor that means certain people may get CFS

from the bug. There are many people on the cpnhelp site who have a

diagnosis of cpn infection, but have other serious ailments like MS

which they are successfully treating. Dr Wheldon in the UK

successfully treated his wife, who had the later stages of MS Some

are successfully treating their arthritis on this protocol. There

are links between cpn and dementia.

There are also links between asthma and cpn. Cpn and heart disease.

Cpn & sinusitus - the list goes on and on.

It all seems like a genetic factor of which ailment you may get.

What I am trying to say, is that this bug is a very slow reproducing

bug and can take years to give anyone symptoms.

I am not saying that cpn alone causes CFS, but as it seems to take

control (within a CFS patient) of immune system cells, this means

that your immune system is unable to fight other infections that may

also cause CFS.

> Dr Stratton at Vanderbilt found the link between cpn and CFS in the

> 1990s but because at the time CFS was labelled a pshyciatric issue

> and not physical, this research was never published in medical

> journals - Politics at it's best (or worst). He found that 100%

> (ONE HUNDRED PERCENT) of the CFS blood samples he was sent, had cpn

> infection.

>

> this is very important claim.are you all checked for CP? still I

> have the same question on mind. does that mean CP is causing CFS or

> does it mean we can not overcome this bug because of our depressed

> immune system.

As I said above, if you have CFS and a confirmed cpn infection, it is

possible that the cpn is one of the causes of your CFS. Remember, as

I said earlier, the cpn bug (in CFS cases) saps the ATP from immune

system cells, meaning that they can't do the job they were born to do.

The cpn bug seems to act like a parasitic virus, not a bacteria. In

fact originally when it was first discovered, researchers thought

that cpn was a virus.

The first priority would be to start killing the cpn bug, so your

immune system can start working properly again and fight anything

else you have. It is very hard to erradicate cpn and can take up to

5 years of the 3 antibiotics taken together

A problem that cpn causes is something called secondary prophyria.

This gives people the typical CFS type problems that I bet many

people here have, including light sensitivity, chemical sensitivity,

noise sensitivity, and food sensitivity, as well as mood problems.

This bug is very complicated to understand and treat, but I recommend

getting tested for it - but, the usual problem here - like lyme

disease, it can be hard to detect, especially with most of the bug

being intracellular.

Please read www.cpnhelp.org

There is far more information on this site than what I can type on a

mailing list.

Thank goodness that Dr Stratton at Vanderbilt is starting clinical

research again into cpn, so some of the knowledge will eventually

filter down into the medical establishment.

Thanks,

Mark Hall

[Guest guest]

However a megadose of azithromycin with a dose of Levaquin was

pricisely what precipitated my CFS.

Edgar

On Mar 5, 2008, at 5:40 PM, dirk.goffin wrote:

>

> >

> > Excellent information! I read over someone else's Kenny De Meirleir

> notes after looking over the Cpn site, and I noticed that he mentions

> this as well, though he says viruses may be reactivated in ME/CFS and

> that he uses azithromycin as treatment - but that wouldn't be

> sufficient would it, according to what I read on the site it is only

> treating part of the problem?

>

> I was a patient of DML.

> Had EBV and chlamydia and indeed I got rid of the chlamydia.Even very

> quickly.

> Still stuck with the EBV though.

> Greetings,

> Dirk

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you very much for the detailed info Mark. It is said that it is hard to

detect.I wonder how mine was detected at a simple antibiogram.

bw

nil

Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

> Thanks for your answer. I checked the links.I made some reading at

> web and saw that it was said that about 50 percent of normal

> population gets infected by CP at least once in their lives.

[Guest guest]

Hey you have my attention Dirk, what did that involve - testing, treatment - any

improvement in spite of the continuing presence of EBV?

Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

>

> Excellent information! I read over someone else's Kenny De Meirleir

notes after looking over the Cpn site, and I noticed that he mentions

this as well, though he says viruses may be reactivated in ME/CFS and

that he uses azithromycin as treatment - but that wouldn't be

sufficient would it, according to what I read on the site it is only

treating part of the problem?

I was a patient of DML.

Had EBV and chlamydia and indeed I got rid of the chlamydia.Even very

quickly.

Still stuck with the EBV though.

Greetings,

Dirk

[Guest guest]

4 x 400mg Azithromycin at one time + 1 Levaquin at the same time for

a urinary tract infection. Beginning an hour later I was totally

destroyed which lasted over 6 months of horrible constant fatigue on

my back resting most of the time. Only gradually getting better now

but with many after effects.

Edgar

On Mar 6, 2008, at 2:29 AM, pjeanneus wrote:

> Edgar,

> Tell us more. Exactly what dose of each and how long? What symptoms

> did you develop following this? What was wrong with you that these

> were prescribed? How long have you had symptoms?

>

> Thanks,

> a Carnes

>

> >

> > However a megadose of azithromycin with a dose of Levaquin was

> > pricisely what precipitated my CFS.

> >

> > Edgar

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

levaquin another quinolone antibiotic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinolones

http://www.fluoroquinolones.org/

bw

nil

Re: Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

4 x 400mg Azithromycin at one time + 1 Levaquin at the same time for

a urinary tract infection. Beginning an hour later I was totally

destroyed which lasted over 6 months of horrible constant fatigue on

my back resting most of the time. Only gradually getting better now

but with many after effects.

Edgar

On Mar 6, 2008, at 2:29 AM, pjeanneus wrote:

> Edgar,

> Tell us more. Exactly what dose of each and how long? What symptoms

> did you develop following this? What was wrong with you that these

> were prescribed? How long have you had symptoms?

>

> Thanks,

> a Carnes

>

> >

> > However a megadose of azithromycin with a dose of Levaquin was

> > pricisely what precipitated my CFS.

> >

> > Edgar

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nil,

Thanks for the link which I had read previously. I don't really have

any of the symptoms noted and the Levaquin was a single regular dose.

I think it was the Azithromycin since that was the megadose 4 x 400

mg at once, however I haven't found any research mentioning my kind

of reaction.

Edgar

On Mar 6, 2008, at 11:29 AM, Nil wrote:

> levaquin another quinolone antibiotic

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinolones

> http://www.fluoroquinolones.org/

> bw

> nil

> Re: Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

>

> 4 x 400mg Azithromycin at one time + 1 Levaquin at the same time for

> a urinary tract infection. Beginning an hour later I was totally

> destroyed which lasted over 6 months of horrible constant fatigue on

> my back resting most of the time. Only gradually getting better now

> but with many after effects.

>

> Edgar

>

> On Mar 6, 2008, at 2:29 AM, pjeanneus wrote:

>

> > Edgar,

> > Tell us more. Exactly what dose of each and how long? What symptoms

> > did you develop following this? What was wrong with you that these

> > were prescribed? How long have you had symptoms?

> >

> > Thanks,

> > a Carnes

> >

> > >

> > > However a megadose of azithromycin with a dose of Levaquin was

> > > pricisely what precipitated my CFS.

> > >

> > > Edgar

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Mark, I've read the pages on that site extensively. The first step would

be to find a doctor who will assist with the initial testing, and provide

support in the treatment. ly I don't know who to turn to yet, but I'm

working on it. I live in Australia. I think some of the tests you have available

in the US, such as at Redlabs might become available here this year. I'm

watching and waiting. I'm also interested in other antiviral treatments, but I

don't know whether my body can handle so much medication. I'm not sure I know

about NAC. Can you tell me a bit about it and where I can order it?

Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

Yes ,

To rid yourself of cpn completely, you need to fight it on all 3 fronts

at the same time:-

1) Amoxy / or / herbal supplement NAC to kill the EB spores in the

blood.

2) Doxycycline and Azithromycin / or / Roxythromycin to stop the

intracellular RB replication in the cells. This will force the RBs

cryptic (the ones that are not ready to go cryptic will die). Taking

the Doxy and Azith/Roxy together will ensure there is no antibiotic

resistance.

3) " Pulse " Flagyl or similar for one week every three weeks. This will

destroy the cryptic form causing massive die-off which is the reason

for giving your body a rest between pulses to recover.

This you need to do for up to 5 years to erradicate the bug completely.

I only found out about cpn in April 2007 and my partner has been on the

protocol since November 2007.

So far, she is taking 2400mg NAC and 200mg Doxy daily, so she hasn't

got very far in the protocol yet. I will update you when I can.

For more info, please see www.cpnhelp.org

Mark

>

> Excellent information! I read over someone else's Kenny De Meirleir

notes after looking over the Cpn site, and I noticed that he mentions

this as well, though he says viruses may be reactivated in ME/CFS and

that he uses azithromycin as treatment - but that wouldn't be

sufficient would it, according to what I read on the site it is only

treating part of the problem?

[Guest guest]

Hi Marti

Yes, indeed. I've read the literature with all the warnings for all of these

drugs, and I've also read that people with long term ME/CFS are more likely to

suffer bad affects from them, and that research is being done to find other ways

of treating these bugs which are safer, maybe much lower doses. As a really

sensitive person, I know I'd be the unlucky sod who made herself sicker using

this stuff, so certainly considerable caution, knowledge and patience required.

Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

>

> Yes ,

>

> To rid yourself of cpn completely, you need to fight it on all 3

fronts

> at the same time:-

> This you need to do for up to 5 years to erradicate the bug

completely.

>

My personal opinion follows - please don't flame me.

WOW! That's alot of abx & for a long time. You would have NO good

flora left which is 70% of your immune system - in the gut.

Let's say you do this for the 5 years and you are squeaky clean.

What happens after you are exposed to the bacteria or any other

bacteria or virus? You get it again - even faster since you have no

immune function left in your gut.

Doesn't that leave you worse off than before? Just want to point

out the risks involved in this protocol especially for new people

who are desperate to get well and may not have thought through the

ramifications.

I know there are some on this list who advocate long term

antibiotics but I think there are some risks that have to be

evaluated. Please be careful.

Marti

[Guest guest]

There was a cheney study that showed CFS patients eliminating Chlamydia

Pneumonia with Undenatured whey. I would check this out and try it before the

antibiotics. I had long term antibiotics for urethritis and it destroyed my

health and it has taken me years to repair the damage. Be careful

Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

>

> Yes ,

>

> To rid yourself of cpn completely, you need to fight it on all 3

fronts

> at the same time:-

> This you need to do for up to 5 years to erradicate the bug

completely.

>

My personal opinion follows - please don't flame me.

WOW! That's alot of abx & for a long time. You would have NO good

flora left which is 70% of your immune system - in the gut.

Let's say you do this for the 5 years and you are squeaky clean.

What happens after you are exposed to the bacteria or any other

bacteria or virus? You get it again - even faster since you have no

immune function left in your gut.

Doesn't that leave you worse off than before? Just want to point

out the risks involved in this protocol especially for new people

who are desperate to get well and may not have thought through the

ramifications.

I know there are some on this list who advocate long term

antibiotics but I think there are some risks that have to be

evaluated. Please be careful.

Marti

[Guest guest]

Long term abx have saved my life, so I guess when everything, every organ in

your body is riddled with bacteria causing everything to start falling apart

fast, incl heart, brain, gut, hormones packing up, eyes in agony, pain

absolutely everywhere and of course bed-ridden, you just want to save your skin,

and you do whatever you have to do.

Taking abx long-term is not a picnic but it sure beats being dead, I think!

Nelly

Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

>

> Yes ,

>

> To rid yourself of cpn completely, you need to fight it on all 3

fronts

> at the same time:-

> This you need to do for up to 5 years to erradicate the bug

completely.

>

My personal opinion follows - please don't flame me.

WOW! That's alot of abx & for a long time. You would have NO good

flora left which is 70% of your immune system - in the gut.

Let's say you do this for the 5 years and you are squeaky clean.

What happens after you are exposed to the bacteria or any other

bacteria or virus? You get it again - even faster since you have no

immune function left in your gut.

Doesn't that leave you worse off than before? Just want to point

out the risks involved in this protocol especially for new people

who are desperate to get well and may not have thought through the

ramifications.

I know there are some on this list who advocate long term

antibiotics but I think there are some risks that have to be

evaluated. Please be careful.

Marti

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

Dear Nelly

I couldn't agree more, a little gastric uncertainty is a small price to pay.

ABX have never caused any gut problem that 3 days of the right probiotics

haven't fixed.

R

Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

>

>

>

> >

> > Yes ,

> >

> > To rid yourself of cpn completely, you need to fight it on all 3

> fronts

> > at the same time:-

>

> > This you need to do for up to 5 years to erradicate the bug

> completely.

> >

>

>

> My personal opinion follows - please don't flame me.

>

> WOW! That's alot of abx & for a long time. You would have NO good

> flora left which is 70% of your immune system - in the gut.

>

> Let's say you do this for the 5 years and you are squeaky clean.

> What happens after you are exposed to the bacteria or any other

> bacteria or virus? You get it again - even faster since you have no

> immune function left in your gut.

>

> Doesn't that leave you worse off than before? Just want to point

> out the risks involved in this protocol especially for new people

> who are desperate to get well and may not have thought through the

> ramifications.

>

> I know there are some on this list who advocate long term

> antibiotics but I think there are some risks that have to be

> evaluated. Please be careful.

>

> Marti

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with

> each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

> treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear E

Start with Bernie Hudson RNSH

R

Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

>

>

> Yes ,

>

> To rid yourself of cpn completely, you need to fight it on all 3 fronts

> at the same time:-

>

> 1) Amoxy / or / herbal supplement NAC to kill the EB spores in the

> blood.

>

> 2) Doxycycline and Azithromycin / or / Roxythromycin to stop the

> intracellular RB replication in the cells. This will force the RBs

> cryptic (the ones that are not ready to go cryptic will die). Taking

> the Doxy and Azith/Roxy together will ensure there is no antibiotic

> resistance.

>

> 3) " Pulse " Flagyl or similar for one week every three weeks. This will

> destroy the cryptic form causing massive die-off which is the reason

> for giving your body a rest between pulses to recover.

>

> This you need to do for up to 5 years to erradicate the bug completely.

>

> I only found out about cpn in April 2007 and my partner has been on the

> protocol since November 2007.

>

> So far, she is taking 2400mg NAC and 200mg Doxy daily, so she hasn't

> got very far in the protocol yet. I will update you when I can.

>

> For more info, please see www.cpnhelp.org

>

> Mark

>

>

> >

> > Excellent information! I read over someone else's Kenny De Meirleir

> notes after looking over the Cpn site, and I noticed that he mentions

> this as well, though he says viruses may be reactivated in ME/CFS and

> that he uses azithromycin as treatment - but that wouldn't be

> sufficient would it, according to what I read on the site it is only

> treating part of the problem?

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

it is used in cough syrups. you may wish to check your Vademecum.

bw

nil

Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

Hi .

I know there are other people of the cpnhelp support group who are from

Australia. Maybe you could ask them. I am from the UK.

NAC is a supplement that can be bought from any health food shop. It

is normally taken as a precursor to the antioxidant Glutathione and has

a side effect of killing the EB spore form of cpn. Many people on the

[Guest guest]

Thanks Mark,

I've used this as a powder, but only a very small amount at a time. I didn't

notice, at that dose any nasty reaction, but as I am already using glutathion I

kept the dose low so I didn't overwhelm my body. Now, I see that the iherb NAC

is quite a high dose by comparison. It's a good plan to investigate further I

think in the light of this new information. Is the cpn help group on the cpn

website?

Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

Hi .

I know there are other people of the cpnhelp support group who are from

Australia. Maybe you could ask them. I am from the UK.

NAC is a supplement that can be bought from any health food shop. It

is normally taken as a precursor to the antioxidant Glutathione and has

a side effect of killing the EB spore form of cpn. Many people on the

cpnhelp site have a lot of trouble getting tested for cpn, and use NAC

as a test itself. Many take NAC, and if they get cold/flu symtoms, it

could be cpn spore die-off.

I have heard many a time that people who have CFS have a Glutathione

deficiancy and supplementing with NAC is a good idea anyway

We buy ours from www.iherb.com

Hope this helps,

Mark Hall

>

> Thanks Mark, I've read the pages on that site extensively. The first

step would be to find a doctor who will assist with the initial

testing, and provide support in the treatment. ly I don't know who

to turn to yet, but I'm working on it. I live in Australia. I think

some of the tests you have available in the US, such as at Redlabs

might become available here this year. I'm watching and waiting. I'm

also interested in other antiviral treatments, but I don't know whether

my body can handle so much medication. I'm not sure I know about NAC.

Can you tell me a bit about it and where I can order it?

[Guest guest]

Thanks Mark, that's very helpful, I'll check out that forum.

Re: Chlamydia Pneumonia & CFS

Hi ,

Yes the NAC does is quite high on the protocol, but that is what is

needed. JimK, the creator of the cpnhelp website explains what NAC

does to cpn better that what I could -

" but the main purpose of NAC in the protocol is because it is

a " cysteine bond reducer " rather than for it's antioxidant functions.

This breaks or " reduces " in chemical terms, the cysteine-rich

molecules of the Elementary Body cell wall, exposing it to the immune

system so it can be kill before it enters a cell. "

There is a brilliant forum on the cpnhelp.org website, which acts

like an online support group, giving advice to many people who think

their condition is caused by cpn infection. The people who post

include Dr Wheldon (One of the expert cpn doctors) himself when he

has time, other specialists who have a field in microbiology, and

patients themselves who have gotten better on the protocol. It is a

website manned by volunteers, many who have gotten better and want to

help other people to get better.

Hope this helps.

Thanks,

Mark Hall

>

> Thanks Mark,

> I've used this as a powder, but only a very small amount at a time.

I didn't notice, at that dose any nasty reaction, but as I am already

using glutathion I kept the dose low so I didn't overwhelm my body.

Now, I see that the iherb NAC is quite a high dose by comparison.

It's a good plan to investigate further I think in the light of this

new information. Is the cpn help group on the cpn website?

[Guest guest]

i had testing with red labs - showed a high viral titer and bugs in the

gut...doc at the time said it was not leaky gut but higher...then,next visit

said it was leaky gut....had more blood drawn a couple of months ago will get

results next visit...doc wants me to do valcyte - valtrex helps...recently

 found out that my cd 57 had dropped significantly so lyme is back in the

picture again!!

deb

________________________________

Hi

I am trying to find info about people who have had redlabs, and if

there are issues with leaky guy what you have done etc for tx.

I saw on this oldr post below someone rec'd N-AC for CpN; I thought a

bad reaction to NAc is sign possible of CPN, but they recommend taking

it anyway? maybe its like mine friend who was treated for hep c for 6

months, it was torture, painful and she was down for the count

duringthat time. Is that how it has to be to go after infections with cfs?

[Moderator: I do not believe that it the way that it need to be, it may be

fastest way -- if you survive. My experience has to been to tune dosage so that

you herx at night (while you sleep) and just a little under the weather during

the day.... typically that is done with the use of potenators in the evening

(enzyemes like bromelain,serrapeta se etc), and anti-coagulants in the morning]