Re: Stress <==> endocrine and CFIDS

[Guest guest]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6814

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7835617?ordinalpos=8 & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEnt\

rez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

bw

nil

Stress <==> endocrine and CFIDS

> http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/2/692

>

> Stress is a major factor in CFIDS with several known physiological

> components.

> * Many of the infections are known to have a major increase in

> reproduction in the presence of Epinephrine (aka adrenaline), one

> study that I read had 1000x growth in 24 hours.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/2/692

>

> Stress is a major factor in CFIDS with several known physiological

> components.

> * Many of the infections are known to have a major increase in

> reproduction in the presence of Epinephrine (aka adrenaline), one

> study that I read had 1000x growth in 24 hours.

>

> Another study that a member back channel to me is at

>

> http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/2/692

>

> which found " a relative resistance of the immune system to

> regulation by the neuroendocrine system "

>

>

> Interesting that it also found " Baseline noradrenaline was similar

in

> CFS and controls, whereas baseline adrenaline levels were

> significantly higher in CFS patients. "

>

> This leads to a part of any treatment for CFIDS should attempt to

> address the adrenaline levels. This could be done by chemical means

> or by psychological mechanisms [which could lead into Gupha, CBT

etc).

>

> The key aspect is reducing adrenaline --- if there is a negative

> attitude towards psychological means, then there will be zero

benefit

> (or worsening!!!).

>

> ===============================================

>

> So can we get some ****documented**** suggestions for reducing

> adrenaline levels via supplements.

>

Hi Ken

The only suggestion I can offer for regulating adrenaline drug-wise

are betablockers. Propananol has been very helpful for me in low

doses, I take either 10 or 20mg and it does help the racing heart and

anxiety I get which has always played a huge part in my illness.

My endocrine system has been badly affected and I take 5mg

Prednisolone because my adrenals don't produce sufficient cortisol

and also I am hypothyroid so have to take Armour and thyroxine to

deal with this.

Knowing that I have documented endocrine problems maybe is the reason

why I have such dramatic adrenaline problems I don't know, all I know

is the effects stop my muscles working properly and cause nasty

migraines and lack of energy.

Finally I want to say that I started Gupta just over a week ago and

it does work for helping to control the adrenaline, I am very

encouraged by it. I haven't been able to do this before even with

the help of counselling and self-help books.

There are several techniques to practise with the Gupta approach but

I have found that the " soften and flow " technique really does get rid

of the massive tension that might be in my head or other part of my

body. This morning it took 30 minutes of meditating on the quite

nasty sensation that was in the back of my head that made me feel a

bit dizzy and would have made me anxious in the past which would have

then given me more adrenaline and I might have ended up with a panic

attack which would have affected me for hours after. However now

that I am confident these techniques do work I could eventually get

things under control and then get on with my day and the sensation

had completely gone and didn't come back.

I think it is a form of NLP but I am not certain about that but I

would think that it could be proved that the brainwaves change using

such a technique.

Already I can do much more physically, I haven't walked so well or so

often since crashing in 2000 but that is not to say I don't still get

symptoms in my legs at the end and I need to rest but recovery is

much much quicker usually just a few hours and then I am ready to do

some more physical stuff.

I don't care who wants to attack me or say I never had CFS/ME I would

rather use my energy in getting MY illness under control which I seem

to be doing but it isn't easy and it requires daily practice. Things

are still very difficult for me at night when the adrenaline kicks in

big time affecting my sleep so that on some mornings I haven't got to

sleep til 5.30am. There is no way I would have been able to cope

with this before but because I have these techniques to use it just

isn't affecting me the way it used to and I feel so much better. Its

very early days but its good to know that I have techniques to use

that make me feel better.

I am still having to use a low dose of betablocker but I am feeling

so encouraged by what I am experiencing using Gupta's approach.

On a final point I have been able to reduce my steroid and thyroid

medication a little since starting the program and that has to be a

good thing.

Pam

[Guest guest]

Yeah and the Netherlands research was carried out on 14 teenage girls. Yes, 14

only.

And WHEN the Netherlands group reported different findings to other researchers

i.e. Demitrack they said

 

<snip>

It is possible that we do not observe changes in HPA-axis reactivity in our

group of CFS patients because we are studying a much younger population. In our

group of adolescents with CFS, mean age was 15.8 yr, whereas Demitrack et al.

(10) studied adults with a mean age of 36.9 yr. Moreover, mean duration of

disease in the adult study was 7.2 yr, whereas in our patient group mean

duration of disease was less than 2 yr (10).

<Snip>

 

For people who don't know the Netherlands hospital in Utrecht is notorious.

Another researcher who found different levels of another stress hormone

(cortisol) to Demitrack was Simon Wessley.

People with ME in the UK and the Netherlands would argue that both groups are

working on sets of depressed or mentally ill patients.

Neil Abbot (a PWME who is a researcher for MERGE) made the following point

Are adrenaline (nor/epinephrine)levels raised in ME/CFS patients? Of three

research studies which have measured plasma levels directly, one (Timmers 2002)

found epinephrine levels significantly increased (to a modest level), while two

(Ottenweller 2001; 1998) found no difference in (nor)epinephrine, so

whether adrenaline levels are raised to the point where lowering them induces a

lightening cure is a moot point.

Yes, improvements in health are welcome, but some kind of verifiable proof of

efficacy is necessary before techniques - whether pharmaceutical or

psychological - can be recommended.

As far as the reports of success with the lightning process, we really need how

many people have been treated and improved/not improved, and how improvement is

gauged, and if it is lasting (i.e. > 6 months) etc.

And remember, ME/CFS is a diagnosis of exclusion with many different kinds of

patients, so one therapy will not fit all.

- Dr Neil Abbot, ME Research UK, Perth, 10/1/2007 16:08

It's sad to see research from places like the Netherlands hospital, that

patients are fighting against, referred to on this group without a credibility

warning.

__________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

This morning it took 30 minutes of meditating on the quite

> nasty sensation that was in the back of my head that made me feel a

> bit dizzy and would have made me anxious in the past which would have

> then given me more adrenaline and I might have ended up with a panic

> attack which would have affected me for hours after. > Pam

>

I am not attacking you, but getting a panic attack because you have a

headache, has (in my opinion) nothing to do with ME/CFS. I see it as a

purely psychological thing, which doesn't mean that you don't have

ME/CFS, but this is an extra (am I making sense?). Just like someone

could have arthritis and also develops depression. Maybe the person

would've gotten depressed without the RA too, maybe not. But it doesn't

mean al people with RA are depressed or will be depressed.

When I read the statements about Gupta (here and on Cort's blog for

instance), I notice that his treatment seems to work very well for

anxiety-related problems. Getting anxious because you have to do

something or because you feel some sensation in your body. If you have

to do a lot of things (or feel that way) or suffer from many pains and

consantly get anxious about that, then indeed you could have elevated

adrenaline-levels the whole day.

Amygdala-treatments are also available online for those suffering from

anxiety (Linden-method), I suppose that it is often the same treatment

as the Gupta method (and has many, many similarities with CBT and

Mindfulness, etc.).

Btw, the Linden-method can be downloaded with Emule. I haven't seen the

Gupta-treatment there yet (would save you loads of money!)

My theory:

Remember that not everyone who is diagnosed with ME/CFS has the same

disease, it's a very heterogeneous group. I'm pretty confident that

more than half of those purely suffers from stress, the feeling that

they always have to do someting usefull (cleaning!) and can't relax and

enjoy things.

The group who has severe ME and immune-problems (what De Meirleir would

call non-deadly AIDS-like) is extremely small. My guess would be that

only a few percent of those dx has that type.

The remaining patients has different diseases (auto-immune, POTS,

coeliakie etc.), a less severe form of ME/CFS or a mixture of physical

and psychological problems. Even if the latter group fixes the

psychological issues (which could help a great deal and could be

because of braindamage from a virus or something), they would always

be 'weaker' physical.

[Guest guest]

Pam,

You have really hit the nail on the head here

<snip>

I take either 10 or 20mg and it does help the racing heart and

anxiety I get which has always played a huge part in my illness

<end>

I'm not in the slighest bit surprised to see you ending up on the

Gupta program.

Just don't try and apply your experience (which has nothing to do

with CFS and ME) to this group.

Why not just say that you have had long term problems due to your

anxiety and leave this group alone.

We all wish you the best of luck in controlling these symptoms and do

not regard them as any way less important to CFS and ME.

Different but equal.

Kindest regards,

Annette

[Guest guest]

some taurine info

http://www.lef.org/abstracts/codex/taurine_index.htm

bw

nil

Stress <==> endocrine and CFIDS

> http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/2/692

>

> Stress is a major factor in CFIDS with several known physiological

> components.

> * Many of the infections are known to have a major increase in

> reproduction

[Guest guest]

May be low-cortisol related.

Carol W.

Alice Frost <alicefrost1947@...> wrote:

>

> And I have had many injections of epinephrine

> so how does this fit in?  Any ideas about this? 

> I read in Dr. Bell's book that people with asthma

> are more likely to get CFIDS.

[Guest guest]

I'm not suggesting taking steroids btw.

But you may have been low in cortisol if had an inflammatory

condition/severe allergy warranting an EPI or as a precondition

to be considered for prednisone.

Pred is one of the stronger glucocorticoids/steroids - it's

four times stronger per mg than hydrocortisone (and I'm not

suggesting taking hydrocortisone).

Carol W.

Alice Frost <alicefrost1947@...> wrote:

>

> But I suspect my cortisol is high as I cannot tolerate steriods. 

In fact I suspect that I got CFIDS as they gave me prednisone when I

got really sick and it suppressed my immune  system. Previously Air

Force Dr's had always given me antibiotics not steriods.   IMO

steriods are the most deadly thing you can get.

>   Someone just sent a link about that, was it a Carnes? 

>

>

>

> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:57 PM

>

> May be low-cortisol related.

>

> Carol W.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Alice, I just posted a link to the " Potbelly Syndrome " book. It

suggests that two problems are going on. One is infections that the

immune system cannot overcome. The other is the body's reaction to

both infection and life stress = HIGH CORTISOL LEVELS. (For some who

have been sick a long time the hypothalamus may crash resulting in

low cortisol levels. This would be the cases who are really sick and

get everything that comes along. Also severe cases would result in

high cholesterol levels and type 2 diabetes.)

Meditation can bring down cortisol levels. This is good. But you

still have to address the infections. Probably Dr. Chuck Stratton's

protocol or Wheldon's protocol is the best way to deal with the

infections. You can find more info on this at

http://www.cpnhelp.org

Hope this helps.

a Carnes

>

> But I suspect my cortisol is high as I cannot tolerate steriods. 

In fact I suspect that I got CFIDS as they gave me prednisone when I

got really sick and it suppressed my immune  system. Previously Air

Force Dr's had always given me antibiotics not steriods.   IMO

steriods are the most deadly thing you can get.

>   Someone just sent a link about that, was it a Carnes? 

>

>

>

> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:57 PM

>

> May be low-cortisol related.

>

> Carol W.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Alice Frost <alicefrost1947@...> wrote:

>

> I have taken DHEA under the care of an EI doctor.

>  It seemed helpful to me but I stopped when

>  friend with CFIDS told me it could make tumors grow.

>  What do you think about that?  Could it help?

DHEA is a precursor to estrogen and testosterone, which in turn

is a precursor to DHT.

Yes, estrogen and testosterone can make certain kinds of

tumors/cancer grow. Which is why DHEA is being considered

to be taken off the OTC market.

DHEA is made by the adrenals, and people may " feel better " on it.

Many women have side effects such as facial hair

and acne from DHEA supps, even at small amounts of 5 mg.

Anger is a potential side effect for men or women taking DHEA.

You could try it and have your own experience. If you get

side effects, they will slowly go away if you discontinue.

DHEA doesn't produce cortisol downstream on the metabolic

pathway.

[see also my Links>Hormones>Adrenals folder,

and 2 articles on Adrenal Support including TCM approach

at url below]

Carol W.

willis_protocols

Articles in Files.

[Guest guest]

> This morning it took 30 minutes of meditating on the quite

> > nasty sensation that was in the back of my head that made me feel

a

> > bit dizzy and would have made me anxious in the past which would

have

> > then given me more adrenaline and I might have ended up with a

panic

> > attack which would have affected me for hours after. > Pam

> >

>

>

> I am not attacking you, but getting a panic attack because you have

a

> headache, has (in my opinion) nothing to do with ME/CFS. I see it

as a

> purely psychological thing, which doesn't mean that you don't have

> ME/CFS, but this is an extra (am I making sense?). Just like

someone

> could have arthritis and also develops depression. Maybe the person

> would've gotten depressed without the RA too, maybe not. But it

doesn't

> mean al people with RA are depressed or will be depressed.

>

>

Hi all

I should have pointed out that I have had Dr Myhill's mitochondria

tests which showed that my ATP was low, magnesium low, selenium low,

GSH low, zinc low, furthermore the translactor studies showed there

was a partial blockage in my ADP-ATP was only 48% with 60% being

normal. The translactor test was then done which showed the blockage

was caused by high DNA/RNA so I think that covers the fact I was not

psychologically ill but I had a physical illness.

In addition I have had blood tests done which showed my immune system

reacts strongly to mercury and a hair test proved I was mercury-

poisoned. Only last year my IS was still reacting strongly to nickel

and also there was an above level of nickel in my blood.

The SOD enzyme ahowed poor enzyme activity and the cardiolipin

studies shoed that I had a low number of metal binding enzymes and

50% of the ones I did have were occupied by nickel and not the normal

co-factor manganese.

I have high thyroid antibodies and insufficient cortisol based on 24

hour saliva tests which is probably due to pituitary problems.

Is this information enough for those of you who just want to believe

I have a different illness from you and yet Gupta is helping me both

physically and metally?

Pam

[Guest guest]

>

> Pam,

>

> You have really hit the nail on the head here

>

> <snip>

> I take either 10 or 20mg and it does help the racing heart and

> anxiety I get which has always played a huge part in my illness

> <end>

>

> I'm not in the slighest bit surprised to see you ending up on the

> Gupta program.

>

> Just don't try and apply your experience (which has nothing to do

> with CFS and ME) to this group.

>

> Why not just say that you have had long term problems due to your

> anxiety and leave this group alone.

>

> We all wish you the best of luck in controlling these symptoms and

do

> not regard them as any way less important to CFS and ME.

>

> Different but equal.

>

> Kindest regards,

> Annette

>

Annette I suggest you read my previous post which documents all the

abnormal test results I have done especially Dr Myhill's gold

standard mitochondrial tests which should be even sufficient evidence

for you.

Pam