Re: Nitric oxide Theory of CFS / Antioxidants Harmful ?

[Guest guest]

>

> say could you explain in more detail why it might be contraindicated to take

antioxidants?

> i am not in the best brain functioning mode right now and forget what i knew

about

that.

>

Hi Kim

I think the theory is that taking TOO MANY antioxidants, especially in vitamin

form (rather

than from food) is the concern. Also the theory I believe is that one's immune

system

needs SOME oxidation to work properly, so that taking ANTI-oxidants (or too

many) might

interfere with proper immune function.

Here's an article that's backed up with 96 studies, that suggests that they may

be harmful:

http://philica.com/display_article.php?article_id=89

d.

p.s. Don't let the title of the article freak you out. It's just one doctor's

conclusion. And he

does recommend getting antioxidants from food!

[Guest guest]

very interesting

thx

seems like the pendulum always swings.

what to do......

[Moderator: Does anyone have a concrete experience that anti-oxidents (by

themselves) caused an improvement. I know that grape-seed extract contains

anti-oxidants but is also an anticoagulant, and have had positive experience

from that which I would ascribe to the anticoagulant. ]

> >

> > say could you explain in more detail why it might be

contraindicated to take

> antioxidants?

[Guest guest]

Easy...with a sluggish detox systme like we have too many antioxidants act as

pro-oxidants, antioxidants pick up the bad stuff and rid them but if they cant

rid them fast enough they become pro-oxidant and have a toxic effect, jsu as too

much GSH at one time maybe bad for you becuase the body cant handle all at once,

antioxidants are very important for us, need the right amoun t though

Mike

[Moderator: How can you objectively determine the appropriate amount...]

[Guest guest]

Often people get sick, and only then start to take vitamins.

Could selection bias <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias> have

caused the results mentioned?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

Sort of like sick people, health insurance, and adverse selection (which

then drives up the cost)

[Moderator: I read the study, the one bias that is possible is that all of the

population was healthy at the start (so it may not apply to those with

illnesses!!!!). The population was then divided into two groups randomly. The

methodology was sound --- apart from dealing with healthy folks only]

On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 3:05 AM, kim.doll70 <kim.doll70@...> wrote:

[Guest guest]

In response to the moderator's question,I don't know all the properties of

lipoic acid but, without a doubt, it has helped greatly. It eliminates about

80% (the depth) of my crashes at 200mg./day. Interestingly, any antioxident

that increases my energy immediately, causes a crash the following day; CoQ10

and idebnone being the worst. Now this is happening with Vit. D to a lesser

extent. The same goes for anticoagulants like vitamin e and bromelain: I feel

cured for a day, then semi-shot the next. Any kind of stimulant has the same

effect, even sugar. It seems my cells can't handle increased energy. I've

heard Cheney mention the theory of super oxide leakage from the cell, which

mixes with nitric oxide, creating peroxynitrate, wiping out GSH. Seems

reasonable to me. The only other I've had success with is curcumin.

Unfortunately it's murder on my leaky gut/ankylosing spondylitis. If I could

take it transdermally or shoot it, I would. I guess it's worth mentioning both

LA and curcumin recycle GSH. Maybe my problem is in the recycling. If anyone

can provide an alternate to Cheney's theory, or advise me on how to compound

curcumin into a transdermal cream, I'd be very interested. GTo:

@...: kim.doll70@...: Sat, 15 Nov

2008 08:05:18 +0000Subject: Re: Nitric oxide Theory of CFS /

Antioxidants Harmful ?

very interesting

thx

seems like the pendulum always swings.

what to do......

[Moderator: Does anyone have a concrete experience that anti-oxidents (by

themselves) caused an improvement. I know that grape-seed extract contains

anti-oxidants but is also an anticoagulant, and have had positive experience

from that which I would ascribe to the anticoagulant. ]

>>

>> say could you explain in more detail why it might be

contraindicated to take

> antioxidants?

_________________________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

-I was reminded of this post and searched for it today, because I was

reading " the vitamin shoppes " newsletter that they stuck in my bag

this week after a purchase and one of their news items is the old song

and dance about how amazing antioxidants are for you? yet the link

below implies that is discredited? whats the accepted word in the

health field? here is an excerpt from that link about antioxidants not

being good in excess:

Conclusion

The lofty predictions of the discredited free radical theory, as

regards the ability of antioxidants to prevent, nullify or reverse

mankind's common diseases and aging have fallen woefully short. To

the contrary, the antioxidant vitamins actually increase the risk of

the diseases they were supposed to cure or prevent and they increase

mortality. At this point in time, randomized controlled trials have

accumulated convincing data showing the ineffectiveness and dangers of

common antioxidants, such as vitamins beta carotene, A, C and E. These

same vitamins are promoted and marketed with near reckless abandon

regarding consumer safety. Because of the quantity and quality of the

scientific data, there is now a legal and moral liability issue

associated with their unrestrained use. We must make patient and

consumer safety our number one priority-- In

, " kdrbrill " <kdrbrill@...> wrote:

>

>

> >

> > say could you explain in more detail why it might be

contraindicated to take

> antioxidants?

> > i am not in the best brain functioning mode right now and forget

what i knew about

> that.

> >

>

> Hi Kim

>

> I think the theory is that taking TOO MANY antioxidants, especially

in vitamin form (rather

> than from food) is the concern. Also the theory I believe is that

one's immune system

> needs SOME oxidation to work properly, so that taking ANTI-oxidants

(or too many) might

> interfere with proper immune function.

>

> Here's an article that's backed up with 96 studies, that suggests

that they may be harmful:

>

> http://philica.com/display_article.php?article_id=89

>

> d.

>

> p.s. Don't let the title of the article freak you out. It's just

one doctor's conclusion. And he

> does recommend getting antioxidants from food!

>

[Guest guest]

kim.doll70 wrote:

> -I was reminded of this post and searched for it today, because I was

> reading " the vitamin shoppes " newsletter that they stuck in my bag

> this week after a purchase and one of their news items is the old song

> and dance about how amazing antioxidants are for you? yet the link

> below implies that is discredited? whats the accepted word in the

> health field? here is an excerpt from that link about antioxidants not

> being good in excess:

A lot of the studies I have seen use synthetic antioxidants, such as

synthetic vitamin E, which is known to be utilized differently in the

body than natural vitamin E. It also depends on dosage. It further

depends on who paid for the study. Some studies I've seen are paid for

by pharmaceutical companies. Of course they don't want you taking

antioxidants instead of their toxic drugs!

As for whether antioxidants are good or not, I suggest you visit the

websites in my sig and learn how they help to downregulate the NO/ONOO-

cycle, which leads to improvement of multisystem illnesses. You could

never eat enough food to achieve the levels necessary to fight these

diseases.

Nothing is good in *extreme* excess. Even too much water or oxygen will

kill you, even though without them we will die. However, with

nutrients, what's an excess for one person may be completely inadequate

for someone else.

Jeri <teewinot13@...>

@>--->---->~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<----<---<@

Dr. Pall's NO/ONOO- Theory/Treatment Discussion Group:

TenthParadigmSociety

@>----------<---------->----------<----------<----------<@

The Tenth Paradigm Society for CFS, MCS, FM, PTSD, GWS & others:

http://www.geocities.com/tenthparadigm

[Guest guest]

> In response to the moderator's question,I don't know all the

>properties of lipoic acid but, without a doubt, it has helped

>greatly. It eliminates about 80% (the depth) of my crashes at

>200mg./day. Interestingly, any antioxident that increases my energy

>immediately, causes a crash the following day; CoQ10 and idebnone

>being the worst.

- Thats interesting. Ive noticed some similar things.

Im trying the martin pall protocol now. I tried co-q10 and it helps

alot the first few days, then i feel really fatigued after that.

Ive been taking flavinox(which is on the pall protocol), which

contains herbs that are high in flavinoids. Flavinoids, from what i

read, inhibit iNOS (type of nitric oxide goven off by the immune system).

I have had some good benefits and none of the crash that i have with

some antioxidants like coQ10.