Re:* Re: ancient mold detoxification

[Guest guest]

Serena,

You ask: " what are mycotoxins? " and you say they are not alive. If so then

they sound like they are of protein matter that adversely react with living

tissue.

If of protein I would think they would be consumed in a wash using an enzyme

detergent.

Also they should be able to be filtered out of the air by constant fine [HEPA]

filtration.

Ken

Re: [] Re: ancient mold detoxification

I can't comment as to how to clean up the clothes, , but the detox for

the body doesn't make any sense to me ( " to me " being the operative phrase

there.) I like a good sauna, myself. Or a nice soak in some epsom salts. Or

better yet, a nice bask in the sun on the beach (yum!). But none of these

methods make much sense to me in terms of mycotoxins. Mycotoxins are excreted

through the intestine, either in a normal person or in a person on

cholestyramine. There may certainly be other toxins which can be excreted

through the pores, so it's all good - but I would not count on that as a way to

unload mycotoxins. Because, if you COULD do that, then every person exposed to a

mold-contaminated environment actually would be a walking source of illness to

us even clean and in new clothes, and it just doesn't work out that way.

But we kind of touched on again that a week or two back - the idea that it's

the mold itself that triggers the allergic reaction. As far as I know, the

toxins themselves don't have such a big part to play in the initial allergic

response. I have seen a second type of delayed allergic reaction described - but

when I read the details of this, they were really talking about the symptoms of

neurotoxin-mediated illness - which is not allergy at all. It's poisoning, pure

and simple. My allergic reactions don't guarantee I've been exposed to any

mycotoxins, since not every form of mold produc es toxins. But it's enough to

convince me to get the heck out of Dodge.

Idle thought - just how DO you neutralize mycotoxins, anyway? They aren't

alive, so you can't kill 'em like you can kill the mold that produced them. They

get flushed down the toilet, and wind up in sewage treatment plants. And then

what? For the most part, the rest of the world doesn't want to admit these

toxins even exist. So you can bet they aren't actually being measured or treated

specifically. Do they just get circulated into the water system again? Are they

unintentionally neutralized by the processes used to clean up sewage? Or do they

have a " shelf life " and degrade on their own eventually? Enquiring minds...

Serena

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[Guest guest]

Ken, I wasn't asking what they were. I was only wondering what actually breaks

those bad boys down in the long run. You could trap them in a filter all day,

every day, but it wouldn't change their chemical nature. (And then, you have to

clean that filter eventually - not so good.)

The issue with some of these neurotoxins is that once in your body, they

circulate endlessly unless stopped. So, they don't appear to break down in human

tissue. They don't break down sitting in a filter. They might break down using a

protein-devouring enzyme, but we don't know that for sure. While the debates

rage on over how to kill of the molds and bacteria that produce them, there's

still nothing deinitive on the actual breakdown of the poisons themselves.

Still more questions than answers, as far as I can see. It must happen at some

point, or else we'd be up to our eyeballs in the stuff by now.

Serena

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[Guest guest]

Read Mold Warriors.

-

[Guest guest]

Serena,

I'd think if we knew for sure what they were we'd know how to destroy the

toxins... It has been said they aren't living.. Ok they are then either a

chemical or biological poison and if biological then possibly protein matter.

We've just read here many requests for cleaning the toxins out of clothing,

etc... That seems to be a great concern.

Well the grocery store has several enzyme cleaning sprays that easily consume

all sorts of biological and hydrocarbon matter from clothes but never sold to

clean mold or their mycotoxins. I have a testimonial letter from a client

saying a particular enzyme product cleaned a black mold spot from the corner of

her rug where she tried many other " normal " rug cleaners to do the cleaning

which all failed.

Several of our folks have been pleading for guidance on how to clean clothes

that might have been contaminated. I'd like to see someone try an enzyme

cleaner used in a washing machine with and without other detergents. I don't

feel I could perform the tests myself as I'm not known to be sensitive to

mycotoxins. I believe you have said you are... Therefore you might make the

ideal test subject. , of course, thrives at conceiving test protocols and

then being a test volunteer. He might make take an interest in the enzyme

approach to cleaning mold out spores and mycotoxins.

Just an idea.

Ken

=============================

Re:* [] Re: ancient mold detoxification

Ken, I wasn't asking what they were. I was only wondering what actually breaks

those bad boys down in the long run. You could trap them in a filter all day,

every day, but it wouldn't change their chemical nature. (And then, you have to

clean that filter eventually - not so good.)

The issue with some of these neurotoxins is that once in your body, they

circulate endlessly unless stopped. So, they don't appear to break down in human

tissue. They don't break down sitting in a filter. They might break down using a

protein-devouring enzyme, but we don't know that for sure. While the debates

rage on over how to kill of the molds and bacteria that produce them, there's

still nothing deinitive on the actual breakdown of the poisons themselves.

Still more questions than answers, as far as I can see. It must happen at

some point, or else we'd be up to our eyeballs in the stuff by now.

Serena

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[Guest guest]

I see what you're saying, Ken. It would be neat if it works. But I don't think

I'd make a very good test subject. I'm on Shoemaker's protocol and supposed to

be practicing avoidance. can spot mold as easily or even more easily than I

can. That says nothing, however, about the actual residue of toxins, if they

should exist on the item.

I'm really amazed we don't have some lab work on this. Doug Haney, maybe?

Serena

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[Guest guest]

can spot mold as easily or even more easily than I can. That

says nothing, however, about the actual residue of toxins, if they

should exist on the item.

> Serena

I'm afraid you have it completely backwards Serena.

The focus in ALL of my messages is that my avoidance protocol is NOT

concerned with spores and that measuring spore counts is meaningless.

That's why I refer to it as Mycotoxin avoidance unless I'm speaking

to someone who doesn't know what mycotoxins are.

Perhaps you didn't see my references to the discussion I had with

Dr Marinkovich in 1999 when I rejected his " spore/allergy " concept

because I had done testing on myself with objects wrapped in a Hepa

filter which indicated that the " effect " was unrestrained by a

micron filter barrier. I proposed that this was no allergy and that

my reaction was to volatolized mycotoxins. Dr Marinkovich looked

surprised and then told me that he had just heard about a housing

project in Sweden full of sick occupants that was negative for

airborne spores. It wasn't until the walls were opened that the

colonies were found - so tightly sealed that no spores escaped.

The conclusion reached by the researchers was the spore inhalation

is not necessary - just the mycotoxins.

But Dr Marinkovich said that this was a preliminary finding and had

not been peer reviewed. I felt that the consistency this story had

with my perceptions was enough of a confirmation to make it a basis

for strategy and I believe that time has borne out the validity of

the concept.

When Dr Marinkovich persisted in trying to order more allergy tests,

I rejected his testing as inappropriate and counterproductive and

unrelated to the nature of the problem.

And, Serena, perhaps you haven't seen my posts on Dr Kleins

Stachybotrys website that discuss the adsorption of low molecular

weight toxins onto smooth surfaces by Van der Waals forces.

So I think if you review my old posts, you will find that the

primary exposure that concerns me is residual and volatolized toxins.

The spores can be dealt with relatively easily while objects that

have adsorbed toxins can not be remediated at all.

But as I keep saying, they do seem to die down over a period of

years so I don't advise people to get rid of something that they

might possible get back if they are willing to wait.

-

[Guest guest]

I've been picturing mycotoxins as a gas-like substance and doubting

it would be caught in any filter. Perhaps a carbon filter as carbon

absorbs gas, right?

--- In , " kengib . " <jkg4902@h...>

wrote:

> Serena,

>

> You ask: " what are mycotoxins? " and you say they are not alive.

If so then they sound like they are of protein matter that adversely

react with living tissue.

>

> If of protein I would think they would be consumed in a wash using

an enzyme detergent.

>

> Also they should be able to be filtered out of the air by constant

fine [HEPA] filtration.

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

> I've been picturing mycotoxins as a gas-like substance and doubting

it would be caught in any filter. Perhaps a carbon filter as carbon

absorbs gas, right?

>

That's been my experience, except that the toxins don't " feel " like

they mix well with air and seem to move through a room much like wisps

of cigarette smoke.

I'm sure you've all had the experience of being " hit " in a specific

area of a room that doesn't change location even if you open windows,

doors, and get a tornado blasting through the room.

-

[Guest guest]

-

No, I have probably not seen your 1999 post to anyone whatsoever. I was not here

at the time, as you should probably recall. But I am surprised you even recall

what you posted in 1999, seeing as how that was what? 6 years ago? I don't even

remember what _I_ posted to anyone in 1999, let alone conversations that later

turned out to be irrelevant.

I have no difficulty distinguishing between mycotic organisms and mycotoxins.

The one produces the other. Simple. The results and consequences, maybe not so

simple. Like many others, I use the term " mold " as a shorthand form of speech.

Surely, you would be able to recognize the common parlance around here.

Let's put it this way - there are multiple species in the hundreds of thousands

involved, releasing many thousands of toxins according to species and present

stated of evolution. These may certainly have some commonality in form and

function, but they are certainly not identical. And it follows that they do not

produce precisely the same effects, nor do they produce absolutely uniform

effects across the entire human population, nor do they even produce a uniform

set of effects from one hour to the next in any given human. And they certainly

do not interact identically with all other surfaces and substances.

If you really want to get down to cases, then I'd be expecting to see slides of

these chemical compounds preserved at high magnification, and I'd be expecting

them to be measurable, both in quantity and in individual structure. At no time

did I suggest that you had anything remotely approaching truly controlled

laboratory conditions at your disposal. I would not even go so far as to suggest

that any experiment you have conducted on your own person or goods was

necessarily valid as regards any other human being or their goods. As near as I

can see, nothing you mentioned would allow you to distinguish dioxin from toxins

left over from stachy contamination. All you can really check using this method

is whether you personally appear to react or not - which is probably still a

valid way to help Geraldo devise an experiment suitable to his own concerns,

semantics notwithstanding. I thought perhaps you might be willing to help a guy

out. Sweet Jesus - and I always thought SI Hiakawa was

an amusing fellow.

Serena

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