Re: What we have here.... is a failure to communicate!

[Guest guest]

,

Good question. Mold rarely causes the typical " hay fever " type

symptoms for me. It's all the other " stuff " that I experience. Same

for most of my clients, too.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Is there anybody in this group who is troubled by mold as a nuisance

> characterized by allergic symptoms? Sniffling, sneezing, watery eyes

> and breathing difficulties?

>

> Or are you here because exposures of an unbelievably low level can

> have lingering and devastating effects that can remove your ability to

> think, stand up and function like a normal human?

>

> If mold was nothing more to me than an annoying structural defect and

> a watery eyed sneeze now and then, I sure as Hell wouldn't be here.

> -

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I

Is there anybody in this group who is troubled by mold as a nuisance

characterized by allergic symptoms? Sniffling, sneezing, watery eyes

and breathing difficulties?

I am a teacher who got very sick from the school where I taught for 14 yrs.

I began to get very sick with muscle aches, then the joints began to hurt,

blinding headaches, & stabbing pains in my legs that traveled down my legs. I

developed muscle twitches, slurred speech, blurred vision, coma like fatigue,

itchy skin, memory loss, & the list goes on. Two inspections were done and

the mold inspector said that the levels were at low levels & shouldn't be

harmful to humans. However, in one report he stated that some of the molds

found

could cause problems to the immune system, the nervous system, the kidneys

and liver! I am & many others are walking proof that it doesn't matter at

what levels the mold is. MOLD IS MOLD, dead or alive and is HARMFUL!!!!! It

certainly does affect your ability to think, stand, speak and even

sleep!!!!!!!!!! I agree that mold can make you sneeze, cough, but what I & many

others

suffer IS NOT ALLERGY BASED whatsoever!!!!! I suffered from allergies while in

the school but haven't had any of those problems since leaving, but I would

gladly put up with allergies over the other problems I have now!!!!!!

Sue

[Guest guest]

I can't function as a normal human being. When doctors start addressing it

as an allergy, I get weary as it is that is so lightweight compared to

problems I am experiencing.

If it were an allergy, I could get help 'everywhere', instead of flying out

of town for help.

----- Original Message -----

From: " erikmoldwarrior " <erikmoldwarrior@...>

> Or are you here because exposures of an unbelievably low level can

> have lingering and devastating effects that can remove your ability to

> think, stand up and function like a normal human?

>

[Guest guest]

ssr3351@... answered:

> " Is there anybody in this group who is troubled by mold as a

> nuisance

> characterized by allergic symptoms? Sniffling, sneezing, watery eyes

> and breathing difficulties? "

>

> by saying:

>

> " I am a teacher who got very sick from the school where I taught for

> 14 yrs.

> I began to get very sick with muscle aches, then the joints began to

> hurt,

> blinding headaches, & stabbing pains in my legs that traveled down my

> legs. I

> developed muscle twitches, slurred speech, blurred vision, coma like

> fatigue,

> itchy skin, memory loss, & the list goes on.... "

I too taught since 1991 in a brand new library, which leaked from its

opening. I have no allergies. I was tested for allergies. None. I've

never bothered by pollen or cats, still Im not bothered by forests or

animals...etc. HOWEVER during the last four years of teaching developed

constant dizziness, tingling in extremeties, fogginess, inability to

follow a thought to an end, the feeling of aconstant musous " plug " in my

throat not going down ever, and a prevailing tiredness. After the school

found mold and pulled the huge rug up without precautions, my going back

in to put the books back in order sealed my fate. I lost my voice, it

hurt to talk, I whispered. I had shortness of breath and extreme extreme

fatigue and inability to breath in without intence pain in my chest

lasting hours. I felt like Id swallowed whole hot peppers. It was like

strep throat where I wished for only breathing out, to avoid the pain of

breathing in- After my dr. prescribed prednisone, I developed chemical

intolerance and have been in much of a bubble for over a year. what

began as a mycotoxin induced poisoning has made my body prone to

chemical overreactions -

so no-

I was not allergic

I was poisoned.

[Guest guest]

I'm sure I was exposed to many more molds than what they found.

The molds that I was exposed to are Cladosporium, Penicillium, Aspergillus

versicolor, Aureobasidium, Alternaria, Trichoderma, Aspergillus glaucus,

Aspergillus nidulans, Fusarium, Aspergillus fumigatus, Paecilomyces & probably

many more. I started on allergy shots yrs. ago because my allergy attacks were

unbearable, but I haven't had one allergy shot or pill since leaving!! I

have been a patient of Dr. Shoemaker's for over a yr. and am pretty much

symptom free & feeling soooooooo much better. He was able to prove without a

doubt

that my exposure was from the school. He put me on & off medication and in &

out of the bldg. each time testing my blood which confirmed it all!!

Absolute nightmare with no job, but at least I have my health.I honestly was

so

sick I felt like I was dying & on some days wished I would. I still worry

about all the kids still there breathing all those toxins everyday.

Sue

In a message dated 7/31/05 12:17:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

kathywnb@... writes:

Sue,

Do you know what the molds were? Also, mold levels can vary at different

times of the year. For example, at the place where I worked, one month there

was almost none and the next month it had sky rocketed, so you may have been

exposed to more than you think. I have had all of the symptoms you and

others mention as well as others. I used to be allergic to molds, but am not

any

more. I too would much rather have the " regular " type of allergies. I took

allergy shots for several years and they didn't help. Have you had blood

IgG antibodies done to check for mold and toxin exposure?

[Guest guest]

From: " J. Page " <apage1@...>

After my dr. prescribed prednisone, I developed chemical

> intolerance and have been in much of a bubble for over a year. what

> began as a mycotoxin induced poisoning has made my body prone to

> chemical overreactions -

> so no-

> I was not allergic

> I was poisoned.

I'm sorry all this happened to you. I'm not that familiar with

prednisone but have heard others have been prescribed prednisone for mold

and MCS. Could you explain or give link how prednisone can lead to MCS?

Did I read this correctly or was there no connection between the prednisone

and your MCS.

Thanks,

Rosie

[Guest guest]

Sue,

Do you know what the molds were? Also, mold levels can vary at different

times of the year. For example, at the place where I worked, one month there

was almost none and the next month it had sky rocketed, so you may have been

exposed to more than you think. I have had all of the symptoms you and others

mention as well as others. I used to be allergic to molds, but am not any more.

I too would much rather have the " regular " type of allergies. I took allergy

shots for several years and they didn't help. Have you had blood IgG antibodies

done to check for mold and toxin exposure?

ssr3351@... wrote:

I

Is there anybody in this group who is troubled by mold as a nuisance

characterized by allergic symptoms? Sniffling, sneezing, watery eyes

and breathing difficulties?

I am a teacher who got very sick from the school where I taught for 14 yrs.

I began to get very sick with muscle aches, then the joints began to hurt,

blinding headaches, & stabbing pains in my legs that traveled down my legs. I

developed muscle twitches, slurred speech, blurred vision, coma like fatigue,

itchy skin, memory loss, & the list goes on. Two inspections were done and

the mold inspector said that the levels were at low levels & shouldn't be

harmful to humans. However, in one report he stated that some of the molds

found

could cause problems to the immune system, the nervous system, the kidneys

and liver! I am & many others are walking proof that it doesn't matter at

what levels the mold is. MOLD IS MOLD, dead or alive and is HARMFUL!!!!! It

certainly does affect your ability to think, stand, speak and even

sleep!!!!!!!!!! I agree that mold can make you sneeze, cough, but what I & many

others

suffer IS NOT ALLERGY BASED whatsoever!!!!! I suffered from allergies while in

the school but haven't had any of those problems since leaving, but I would

gladly put up with allergies over the other problems I have now!!!!!!

Sue

[Guest guest]

Kathy -

I understand about being concerned for others in the environment that got you

sick. But to some degree, we probably have to realize that we are the coalmine

canaries. In my situation, I was the first to get sick - days before anyone

else. Of those still living (two of the former building occupants are dead, and

another is dying at last report), I am the only one still not sufficiently

recovered to be working. The majority suffered what appear to be respiratory

problems rather than CFS.

My understanding at this point is that the sensitization is a progressive thing.

I had been exposed years earlier, and had already been sick from it for a couple

of years. The first time, I got better with time and distance (and meds that

masked the symptoms). This time, I just couldn't do it. Of course, that marks me

as a probable malingerer in the employer's eyes, right?

Based on various things I have read and personal stories I have heard, I have an

idea that some people will detox slowly on their own over a period of time and

become functional again. As my local doc put it - you have to think about total

toxin load as well as mycotoxins and individual vulnerabilities and exposures.

Shoemaker can test for the genetic vulnerability - but that alone does not

describe everything that happens. A lesser exposure in a healthier person not

carrying a major toxin load (or a male - they don't get this stuff nearly as

often) is simply not going to be the same thing as what happens to a vulnerable

person already sensitized and already carrying an existing toxin load - which is

highly likely, given the vulnerability and lack of available treatment for the

vast majority of us. At some point, you hit the limit of what that particular

body can withstand. You hit it. I hit it. All hell breaks loose, and it's never

precisely the same in any two people, nor even in

a single person all day, every day. Other people seem to do ok with lesser

measures such as avoidance techniques alone. For those who can't detox well

enough to regain their health, all the avoidance in the world won't get it done.

The poisons remain, endlessly recirculating inside the body and doing their

damage. Until those are addressed, things won't get better.

I take from this the thought that, the minute you hear a blanket statement about

mold, mycotoxins, how to deal with them, or how they affect everyone (or on any

other subject, for that matter!) - that is the time to stop and think about what

you're hearing, because that's an agenda - not an experience. Shoemaker and the

guys like him didn't arrive at their present learning by generalizing first and

getting specific later. The did the opposite - listened to individual

experiences, and eventually assimilated that into an understanding of the whole,

which could in turn be used to benefit the individual. Good analytical work

always operates in both directions. You work from the specifics to the broader

picture and back to the specifics again. Systems are like that - whether they

are buildings or bodies or patterns of illness. Caring for and about mold

victims is the same. There may be broader " rules " and issues, but they only work

insofar as they serve the specific victim. And when they

don't, you have to re-check the original premise - or at least the speaker's

agenda. [The obvious Ayn Rand references omitted for brevity only! ; ) ]

In any case, your own experience or mine is just as valid as anyone else's. The

problems in communication only arise when we skip over that part and insist on

trying to drive a cubical spike into a circular receptacle with a jackhammer. It

not only doesn't work, it tends to annoy to the neighbors and destroy both the

spike and the receptacle in the process.

Serena

www.freeboards.net/index.php?mforum=sickgovernmentb

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Serena,

Well said. I also like your: > ...trying to drive a cubical spike

into a > circular receptacle with a jackhammer.

My favorite is the only thing that fits in a pigeon hole is a pigeon.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Kathy -

>

> I understand about being concerned for others in the environment that

> got you sick. But to some degree, we probably have to realize that we

> are the coalmine canaries. In my situation, I was the first to get

> sick - days before anyone else. Of those still living (two of the

> former building occupants are dead, and another is dying at last

> report), I am the only one still not sufficiently recovered to be

> working. The majority suffered what appear to be respiratory problems

> rather than CFS.

>

> My understanding at this point is that the sensitization is a

> progressive thing. I had been exposed years earlier, and had already

> been sick from it for a couple of years. The first time, I got better

> with time and distance (and meds that masked the symptoms). This time,

> I just couldn't do it. Of course, that marks me as a probable

> malingerer in the employer's eyes, right?

>

> Based on various things I have read and personal stories I have heard,

> I have an idea that some people will detox slowly on their own over a

> period of time and become functional again. As my local doc put it -

> you have to think about total toxin load as well as mycotoxins and

> individual vulnerabilities and exposures. Shoemaker can test for the

> genetic vulnerability - but that alone does not describe everything

> that happens. A lesser exposure in a healthier person not carrying a

> major toxin load (or a male - they don't get this stuff nearly as

> often) is simply not going to be the same thing as what happens to a

> vulnerable person already sensitized and already carrying an existing

> toxin load - which is highly likely, given the vulnerability and lack

> of available treatment for the vast majority of us. At some point, you

> hit the limit of what that particular body can withstand. You hit it.

> I hit it. All hell breaks loose, and it's never precisely the same in

> any two people, nor even in

> a single person all day, every day. Other people seem to do ok with

> lesser measures such as avoidance techniques alone. For those who

> can't detox well enough to regain their health, all the avoidance in

> the world won't get it done. The poisons remain, endlessly

> recirculating inside the body and doing their damage. Until those are

> addressed, things won't get better.

>

> I take from this the thought that, the minute you hear a blanket

> statement about mold, mycotoxins, how to deal with them, or how they

> affect everyone (or on any other subject, for that matter!) - that is

> the time to stop and think about what you're hearing, because that's

> an agenda - not an experience. Shoemaker and the guys like him didn't

> arrive at their present learning by generalizing first and getting

> specific later. The did the opposite - listened to individual

> experiences, and eventually assimilated that into an understanding of

> the whole, which could in turn be used to benefit the individual. Good

> analytical work always operates in both directions. You work from the

> specifics to the broader picture and back to the specifics again.

> Systems are like that - whether they are buildings or bodies or

> patterns of illness. Caring for and about mold victims is the same.

> There may be broader " rules " and issues, but they only work insofar as

> they serve the specific victim. And when they

> don't, you have to re-check the original premise - or at least the

> speaker's agenda. [The obvious Ayn Rand references omitted for

> brevity only! ; ) ]

>

> In any case, your own experience or mine is just as valid as anyone

> else's. The problems in communication only arise when we skip over

> that part and insist on trying to drive a cubical spike into a

> circular receptacle with a jackhammer. It not only doesn't work, it

> tends to annoy to the neighbors and destroy both the spike and the

> receptacle in the process.

>

>

>

> Serena

> www.freeboards.net/index.php?mforum=sickgovernmentb

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

.. You can also try Dr. Shoemaker's book Lose the Weight You Hate. Available

through his office (41.957.1550) or Amazon.com. May help you.

[Guest guest]

> a single person all day, every day. Other people seem to do ok

with lesser measures such as avoidance techniques alone. For those

who can't detox well enough to regain their health, all the

avoidance in the world won't get it done. The poisons remain,

endlessly recirculating inside the body and doing their damage.

Until those are addressed, things won't get better. -Serena

>

Serena, until the inflammatory response is modulated, the ionophore

toxins aren't released to be adsorbed by CSM. Avoidance techniques

represent the more extreme measure to damp down the cytokines and

induce Leptin Signalling for detox. Restructuring ones life around

avoidance might be thought of as a the greater inconvenience than

the approach of taking Actos, CSM and associated therapies.

Avoidance is a protocol that is resorted to when all other means

have failed to get the job done, or if relevant treatment is

inaccessible to the mold victim.

Dr. Shoemaker saw the results of my test, and then

duplicated the experiment. Dr Shoemaker saw fit to include this

experience in his book. It remains to be seen how this situation

applies to others or if anyone even feels that they wish to go to

the trouble that we did.

-

[Guest guest]

SERENA EDWARDS Shoemaker understands this. That may be why he

didn't write, " 's way is the only way, " any more than he's ever

going to write, " Serena's experience is more valid than anyone

else's. " There simply is no one-size-fits-all solution, and no

acceptable casualty rate. Following that kind of thinking is what

gets little kids shot up with thimerosol by the millions.

>

Serena,

So if someone approaches you about " avoidance " , the advice you will

give them is " there is no one size-fits-all-solution " ?

There are a lot of people out there who cannot find a doctor who

will even believe them, let alone help them with any Shoemaker style

treatments. It seems fairly reasonable that a person lacking other

options might think about undertaking a strategy to avoid the

offending substance.

Do you think Dr Shoemaker would include and my story if we

were trying to talk people out of doing his protocols and

saying " 's way is the only way " ?

I can't recall that we ever made any such assertions, nor have we

tried to talk people into living outdoors. We just got tired of no

help from doctors and feeling like crap. We decided to do something

about it, and talked about the results. Following your kind of

thinking would still have us begging stubborn doctors for help

instead of out hiking and mountain climbing.

-

[Guest guest]

SERENA EDWARDS wrote:

> , for the last time, WHY must eveything turn into a debate

with you? Is it because your way IS the highway? Never mind. Purely

rhetorical.

>

Well, it's mostly because you are disseminating incorrect

information regarding my experience and views.

For example, after years of posting on this list that I am primarily

concerned with the detection and avoidance of mycotoxins, you said

that my approach was fine for allergies - but told us nothing about

toxin exposure.

It's as if you were either talking about someone else or never read

Mold Warriors or any of my posts.

And then your tendency to discount avoidance techniques removes one

of the few options remaining to people who cannot gain access to

other treatments.

Drugs would never be my primary choice if natural means can offer a

realistic means of dealing with the problem and improving ones

situation.

Also there is this suggestion that my strategy consists of " living

outdoors " .

While I have made statements about doing a test in a pristine

environment to establish a baseline of " as good as it gets " and that

feeling good in a tent is preferable to feeling like crap in a

castle, living outdoors is not what I am doing.

And as I've also said, by reducing my overall exposure, I am working

in a place that was formerly intolerable. I haven't asked anybody

to leave their moldy houses, as this is purely a personal choice.

I've only stated that if remediation is not effective and you are

getting worse, that you can probably expect that trend to continue

unabated.

I have also consistently maintained that the individual response is

so variable that no standards can be developed which can possibly

address the needs of those with such variable degrees of reactivity.

Your assertion that I have proposed a " one size fits all " approach

is not based on anything I ever said and completely inconsistent

with the facts.

But I will say that if someone identifies a substance they are

reacting to, avoidance of that substance probably IS an approach

that will most consistently provide the benefits of not having a

reaction and might even be considered " one size fits all "

To prevent further debates, please ensure that any statements or

concepts attributed to me are consistent with something that I might

actually say.

Thank you.

-