Guest guest Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 HI Marti Thanks for responding I think it is a toxin storage thing as well and maybe and energy restoration too The whole food diet doesn't help that much with this so far Still looking for a consensus of people that have this problem have figured out what this is and what they do about it Many Thanks again Marti On Apr 9, 2012, at 9:58 AM, marti_zavala wrote: > > Hi Steve, > Walking out the door but wanted to respond to this first (and the > POTS question later). > > Yes! This was terrible for me in the beginning! I craving fatty pork > chops which I actually hated before I got sick. > > Yes, I think it has to do with toxin storage - body protection > mechanism. > > I don't have this much now as I am on a whole foods diet. > > Another thing that it could be is energy. We don't process carbs > well usually and the whole insulin thing is off kilter (hormones, > etc). Perhaps your body is trying to restore it's energy reserves? > > Just something to consider. > Marti > > > > > I posted this on another group but this particular problem does > not seem to affect most of them > > > > When I fatigue from overwork /can't get enough rest /am in adverse > conditions ,(too hot, to cold,high elevations) etc.I get a ravenous > appetite for usually high saturated fat foods like bacon, chips, > fatty meats. > > > > Researching this I have concluded tenatively this is what happens. > The body gets fatigued and can't expell toxins well , so the body > has to do something with the poisons and it increases appetitie to > increase fat to have a place to sequester the stuff > > > > So far anything that helps the body expell bad stuff like coffee > retension enemas, moppers saunas etc helps but these solutions only > help so much. > > > > I will say the more the abx beats infection down and whatever else > there is the less of a problem this is ,but it's still a problem . > Having to much body weight is not healthy and doesn't look good either > > > > So I have some questions > > > > Do any of you have this problem of ravenous appetite in response > to stressors and if so what do you do about it ? > > > > Could thiese symptoms be from some other kind of infection/problem? > > > > This is a real problem for me because extra body weight is not > healthy and doesn't look good either > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 Hi Steve, I certainly have this problem. If I overdo it, I become ravenously hungry and can eat everything in sight. Also even when I keep within my limits, I still have a robust appetite considering how inactive I am I'm afraid I haven't found anything that really helps, apart from trying not to overdo it and not eating too many starchy carbs and protein with every snack Look forward to hearing other responses bel Sent from my iPhone On 9 Apr 2012, at 18:07, Administrator1 <stangah@...> wrote: > HI Marti > > Thanks for responding > > I think it is a toxin storage thing as well and maybe and energy > restoration too > > The whole food diet doesn't help that much with this so far > > Still looking for a consensus of people that have this problem have > figured out what this is and what they do about it > > Many Thanks again Marti > On Apr 9, 2012, at 9:58 AM, marti_zavala wrote: > > > > > Hi Steve, > > Walking out the door but wanted to respond to this first (and the > > POTS question later). > > > > Yes! This was terrible for me in the beginning! I craving fatty pork > > chops which I actually hated before I got sick. > > > > Yes, I think it has to do with toxin storage - body protection > > mechanism. > > > > I don't have this much now as I am on a whole foods diet. > > > > Another thing that it could be is energy. We don't process carbs > > well usually and the whole insulin thing is off kilter (hormones, > > etc). Perhaps your body is trying to restore it's energy reserves? > > > > Just something to consider. > > Marti > > > > > > > > I posted this on another group but this particular problem does > > not seem to affect most of them > > > > > > When I fatigue from overwork /can't get enough rest /am in adverse > > conditions ,(too hot, to cold,high elevations) etc.I get a ravenous > > appetite for usually high saturated fat foods like bacon, chips, > > fatty meats. > > > > > > Researching this I have concluded tenatively this is what happens. > > The body gets fatigued and can't expell toxins well , so the body > > has to do something with the poisons and it increases appetitie to > > increase fat to have a place to sequester the stuff > > > > > > So far anything that helps the body expell bad stuff like coffee > > retension enemas, moppers saunas etc helps but these solutions only > > help so much. > > > > > > I will say the more the abx beats infection down and whatever else > > there is the less of a problem this is ,but it's still a problem . > > Having to much body weight is not healthy and doesn't look good either > > > > > > So I have some questions > > > > > > Do any of you have this problem of ravenous appetite in response > > to stressors and if so what do you do about it ? > > > > > > Could thiese symptoms be from some other kind of infection/problem? > > > > > > This is a real problem for me because extra body weight is not > > healthy and doesn't look good either > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Hi Carol I read your article on HighCort2 It made sense I am one of those people that before bed I have to eat and have something sweet You mention many supps and some good suggestions not sure where to begin Chromium helps I use a lot of that Eating a large meal at he beginning of a day and fasting the rest of the day helps Good protein helps too Not sure what do to next Should I move this discussion to your site? On Apr 10, 2012, at 12:29 AM, cbwillis9 wrote: > <stangah@...> wrote: > > > > Do any of you have this problem of ravenous appetite > > > > in response to stressors and if so what do you do about it ? > > High cortisol and related higher glucose (insulin resistance) > will raise appetite, and glucose will not be able to get into > cells well so the person keeps eating, which compounds the > problem. Glucocorticoid meds do this also. > > See my articles " highcort2 " and " potassium " at url below/end. > > Carol W. > willis_protocols > Articles in Files. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2012 Report Share Posted April 11, 2012 I have read a lot of the posts in response to this type of issue. Many people are suggesting candida which is a possibility. I do just want to mention carbohydrate resistance. Research with the guaifinesin project has identified many people with fibromyaligia, who usually have chronic fatigue syndrome as well are carb resistant. On Apr 11, 2012, at 2:36 AM, " heytrollop " <heytrollop@...> wrote: > > I sometime become very hungry, but no matter how much I eat I'm still hungry. I can eat until it's coming back up and I'm still hungry. It's weird. It's not dehydration as I drink a lot of water. Possibly it's H. Pylori.. > > > > > > I posted this on another group but this particular problem does not seem to affect most of them > > > > When I fatigue from overwork /can't get enough rest /am in adverse conditions ,(too hot, to cold,high elevations) etc.I get a ravenous appetite for usually high saturated fat foods like bacon, chips, fatty meats. > > > > Researching this I have concluded tenatively this is what happens. The body gets fatigued and can't expell toxins well , so the body has to do something with the poisons and it increases appetitie to increase fat to have a place to sequester the stuff > > > > So far anything that helps the body expell bad stuff like coffee retension enemas, moppers saunas etc helps but these solutions only help so much. > > > > I will say the more the abx beats infection down and whatever else there is the less of a problem this is ,but it's still a problem . Having to much body weight is not healthy and doesn't look good either > > > > So I have some questions > > > > Do any of you have this problem of ravenous appetite in response to stressors and if so what do you do about it ? > > > > Could thiese symptoms be from some other kind of infection/problem? > > > > This is a real problem for me because extra body weight is not healthy and doesn't look good either > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2012 Report Share Posted April 11, 2012 Sorry that email went out a little too quickly. Anyway regarding carb resistance- you can eat and eat carbs and they don't convert into fuel because the body has a hard time processing pure carb. When the carbs come in through a protein the body can better utilize them. I am not Dvocating the guai protocol for cfs I'm just suggesting that the carb issue and the guai protocol diet be considered as a possibility. I do this only because of my own result with the change. After shifting to the ADA (diabetic) diet with mods for the guai protocol my carb cravings have reduced by a large amount. It took about two months but the change has been significant for me. Char On Apr 11, 2012, at 12:32 PM, Chardale Irvine <ch_irv@...> wrote: > I have read a lot of the posts in response to this type of issue. Many people are suggesting candida which is a possibility. I do just want to mention carbohydrate resistance. Research with the guaifinesin project has identified many people with fibromyaligia, who usually have chronic fatigue syndrome as well are carb resistant. > > On Apr 11, 2012, at 2:36 AM, " heytrollop " <heytrollop@...> wrote: > > > > > I sometime become very hungry, but no matter how much I eat I'm still hungry. I can eat until it's coming back up and I'm still hungry. It's weird. It's not dehydration as I drink a lot of water. Possibly it's H. Pylori.. > > > > > > > > > > I posted this on another group but this particular problem does not seem to affect most of them > > > > > > When I fatigue from overwork /can't get enough rest /am in adverse conditions ,(too hot, to cold,high elevations) etc.I get a ravenous appetite for usually high saturated fat foods like bacon, chips, fatty meats. > > > > > > Researching this I have concluded tenatively this is what happens. The body gets fatigued and can't expell toxins well , so the body has to do something with the poisons and it increases appetitie to increase fat to have a place to sequester the stuff > > > > > > So far anything that helps the body expell bad stuff like coffee retension enemas, moppers saunas etc helps but these solutions only help so much. > > > > > > I will say the more the abx beats infection down and whatever else there is the less of a problem this is ,but it's still a problem . Having to much body weight is not healthy and doesn't look good either > > > > > > So I have some questions > > > > > > Do any of you have this problem of ravenous appetite in response to stressors and if so what do you do about it ? > > > > > > Could thiese symptoms be from some other kind of infection/problem? > > > > > > This is a real problem for me because extra body weight is not healthy and doesn't look good either > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2012 Report Share Posted April 11, 2012 What creates Carb resistance? On Apr 11, 2012, at 9:32 AM, Chardale Irvine wrote: > I have read a lot of the posts in response to this type of issue. > Many people are suggesting candida which is a possibility. I do just > want to mention carbohydrate resistance. Research with the > guaifinesin project has identified many people with fibromyaligia, > who usually have chronic fatigue syndrome as well are carb resistant. > > On Apr 11, 2012, at 2:36 AM, " heytrollop " <heytrollop@...> > wrote: > > > > > I sometime become very hungry, but no matter how much I eat I'm > still hungry. I can eat until it's coming back up and I'm still > hungry. It's weird. It's not dehydration as I drink a lot of water. > Possibly it's H. Pylori.. > > > > > > > > > > I posted this on another group but this particular problem does > not seem to affect most of them > > > > > > When I fatigue from overwork /can't get enough rest /am in > adverse conditions ,(too hot, to cold,high elevations) etc.I get a > ravenous appetite for usually high saturated fat foods like bacon, > chips, fatty meats. > > > > > > Researching this I have concluded tenatively this is what > happens. The body gets fatigued and can't expell toxins well , so > the body has to do something with the poisons and it increases > appetitie to increase fat to have a place to sequester the stuff > > > > > > So far anything that helps the body expell bad stuff like coffee > retension enemas, moppers saunas etc helps but these solutions only > help so much. > > > > > > I will say the more the abx beats infection down and whatever > else there is the less of a problem this is ,but it's still a > problem . Having to much body weight is not healthy and doesn't look > good either > > > > > > So I have some questions > > > > > > Do any of you have this problem of ravenous appetite in response > to stressors and if so what do you do about it ? > > > > > > Could thiese symptoms be from some other kind of infection/ > problem? > > > > > > This is a real problem for me because extra body weight is not > healthy and doesn't look good either > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2012 Report Share Posted April 11, 2012 Hello Carol Am I right in saying high cortisol creates insulin resistance ? Thanks On Apr 10, 2012, at 7:04 PM, cbwillis9 wrote: > > > Administrator1 <stangah@...> wrote: > > > > Hi Carol > > > > I read your article on HighCort2 > > It made sense > > I am one of those people that before bed I have to eat and have > > something sweet > > > > You mention many supps and some good suggestions > > not sure where to begin > > > > Chromium helps I use a lot of that > > Eating a large meal at he beginning of a > > day and fasting the rest of > > the day helps > > Good protein helps too > > > > Not sure what do to next > > > > Should I move this discussion to your site? > > Either low or high cortisol, low or high thyroid, and other > low hormones and neurotransmitters, can cause what is a > chronic fatigue or exacerbate fatigue from other sources. > > I have not found sane amounts of chromium supp (up to 200 mcg) > to be especially useful in insulin resistance, > despite the literature. Just very mildly useful as part > of a larger program for reversing insulin resistance. > Some people take higher amounts, but I consider those amounts > toxic, especially for ongoing use. (I have not found > chromium supps to be useful in low cortisol and related > hypoglycemic situations, despite the vague marketing > literature suggesting chromium can help " regulate blood sugar " > or such.) > > I suggest for you > a serum A1C test and a morning fasting glucose test as > a next step for a reality check on glucose levels. If you > haven't had these tests in the last year, you could use some > new ones. See my article " glucose " for more info, at url > below/end. You can get these tests from your MD, or there > are labs where you can get them on your own paid out of pocket, > e.g. directabs.com and many more. > > You may want to do a quality saliva test of cortisol levels, > FOUR samples at specific times of day to look at levels and > diurnal rhythm, e.g. www.ZRTlab.com , and you can do this > directly without a dr's order. You can also test your > reproductive hormones, useful for men if they did have high > cortisol and insulin resistance or just for a general reality > check. > > I will email you an additional note. > > Carol W. > willis_protocols > Articles in Files. > (willis_protocols group is not a discussion group.) > > > On Apr 10, 2012, at 12:29 AM, cbwillis9 wrote: > > > > > <stangah@> wrote: > > > > > > Do any of you have this problem of ravenous appetite > > > > > > in response to stressors and if so what do you > > > > > > do about it ? > > > > > > High cortisol and related higher glucose (insulin resistance) > > > will raise appetite, and glucose will not be able to get into > > > cells well so the person keeps eating, which compounds the > > > problem. Glucocorticoid meds do this also. > > > > > > See my articles " highcort2 " and " potassium " at url below/end. > > > > > > Carol W. > > > willis_protocols > > > Articles in Files. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2012 Report Share Posted April 11, 2012 Also does chronic illness create high cortisol ? Thanks On Apr 10, 2012, at 7:04 PM, cbwillis9 wrote: > > > Administrator1 <stangah@...> wrote: > > > > Hi Carol > > > > I read your article on HighCort2 > > It made sense > > I am one of those people that before bed I have to eat and have > > something sweet > > > > You mention many supps and some good suggestions > > not sure where to begin > > > > Chromium helps I use a lot of that > > Eating a large meal at he beginning of a > > day and fasting the rest of > > the day helps > > Good protein helps too > > > > Not sure what do to next > > > > Should I move this discussion to your site? > > Either low or high cortisol, low or high thyroid, and other > low hormones and neurotransmitters, can cause what is a > chronic fatigue or exacerbate fatigue from other sources. > > I have not found sane amounts of chromium supp (up to 200 mcg) > to be especially useful in insulin resistance, > despite the literature. Just very mildly useful as part > of a larger program for reversing insulin resistance. > Some people take higher amounts, but I consider those amounts > toxic, especially for ongoing use. (I have not found > chromium supps to be useful in low cortisol and related > hypoglycemic situations, despite the vague marketing > literature suggesting chromium can help " regulate blood sugar " > or such.) > > I suggest for you > a serum A1C test and a morning fasting glucose test as > a next step for a reality check on glucose levels. If you > haven't had these tests in the last year, you could use some > new ones. See my article " glucose " for more info, at url > below/end. You can get these tests from your MD, or there > are labs where you can get them on your own paid out of pocket, > e.g. directabs.com and many more. > > You may want to do a quality saliva test of cortisol levels, > FOUR samples at specific times of day to look at levels and > diurnal rhythm, e.g. www.ZRTlab.com , and you can do this > directly without a dr's order. You can also test your > reproductive hormones, useful for men if they did have high > cortisol and insulin resistance or just for a general reality > check. > > I will email you an additional note. > > Carol W. > willis_protocols > Articles in Files. > (willis_protocols group is not a discussion group.) > > > On Apr 10, 2012, at 12:29 AM, cbwillis9 wrote: > > > > > <stangah@> wrote: > > > > > > Do any of you have this problem of ravenous appetite > > > > > > in response to stressors and if so what do you > > > > > > do about it ? > > > > > > High cortisol and related higher glucose (insulin resistance) > > > will raise appetite, and glucose will not be able to get into > > > cells well so the person keeps eating, which compounds the > > > problem. Glucocorticoid meds do this also. > > > > > > See my articles " highcort2 " and " potassium " at url below/end. > > > > > > Carol W. > > > willis_protocols > > > Articles in Files. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2012 Report Share Posted April 12, 2012 Is there a home test for cortisol levels similar to blood sugar? I would be interested to know what my cortisol levels are related to my blood sugar and also to the timing of my cravings. I don't have science explaining why my carb/fat cravings decreased after replacing that evening snack with a quality protein and a veggie (after 2 mo) I would be ok with explaining it as purely psychological in that I've convinced my brain that I'm not going to starve to death overnight so I don't have to eat like I'm going to hibernate for three months every night. But somehow I sense it's physiological because when I wake up in the middle of the night I'm not famished or bloated. It feels like the energy thru the night is more consistent, like just the right amount to get me through the night and when I wake up I'm not starving either so I can make better choices about what to eat for breakfast. I have not conquered my chronic daily fatigue with this awareness. But it makes me feel hopeful that there may be a way stop eating the things and ways that make it worse and then that paves the way for other treatments to be more effective or at least have a clearer baseline for evaluating their effectiveness. I have appreciated this topic. Char On Apr 12, 2012, at 3:51 AM, " cbwillis9 " <cbwillis9@...> wrote: > > <stangah@...> wrote: > > > > Also does chronic illness create high cortisol ? > > Acute or chronic illness is a STRESS, likewise heat and cold, > and the body will make more cortisol if stressed, > if the body can. Whether that cortisol > becomes high is another question. That's why you have to test > cortisol and glucose, so as to get a reality check. > Don't just assume or operate out of your " head " . > > Carol W. > willis_protocols > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2012 Report Share Posted April 12, 2012 I checked at the pharmacy and they said the only cortisol test is done thru a lab. On Apr 12, 2012, at 4:34 AM, Chardale Irvine <ch_irv@...> wrote: > Is there a home test for cortisol levels similar to blood sugar? I would be interested to know what my cortisol levels are related to my blood sugar and also to the timing of my cravings. I don't have science explaining why my carb/fat cravings decreased after replacing that evening snack with a quality protein and a veggie (after 2 mo) I would be ok with explaining it as purely psychological in that I've convinced my brain that I'm not going to starve to death overnight so I don't have to eat like I'm going to hibernate for three months every night. But somehow I sense it's physiological because when I wake up in the middle of the night I'm not famished or bloated. It feels like the energy thru the night is more consistent, like just the right amount to get me through the night and when I wake up I'm not starving either so I can make better choices about what to eat for breakfast. > > I have not conquered my chronic daily fatigue with this awareness. But it makes me feel hopeful that there may be a way stop eating the things and ways that make it worse and then that paves the way for other treatments to be more effective or at least have a clearer baseline for evaluating their effectiveness. > > I have appreciated this topic. > > Char > > On Apr 12, 2012, at 3:51 AM, " cbwillis9 " <cbwillis9@...> wrote: > > > > > <stangah@...> wrote: > > > > > > Also does chronic illness create high cortisol ? > > > > Acute or chronic illness is a STRESS, likewise heat and cold, > > and the body will make more cortisol if stressed, > > if the body can. Whether that cortisol > > becomes high is another question. That's why you have to test > > cortisol and glucose, so as to get a reality check. > > Don't just assume or operate out of your " head " . > > > > Carol W. > > willis_protocols > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Marti, I note that you mentioned you chelated heavy metals out of your body. May I ask what benefits you experienced from chelation for your m.e/cfs? Many thanks bel Sent from my iPhone On 19 Apr 2012, at 19:37, " marti_zavala " <marti_zavala@...> wrote: > > > > > I ordered Concentrace, multi minerals to see if this will help. > > > > > > These type of multi mineral products with some 72 minerals > > often have some minerals you don't want, and/or can create > > some paradoxical weakening effects in some people. Be true > > to your own experience, and if you feel badly or your teeth > > hurt from this product, drop it. > \ > > Hi Carol, > Totally agree here. Most trace mineral products include heavy metals such as tin, nickel, mercury, arsenic. > > I paid good money to chelate these out of my body so I would not take any form of trace mineral product. > > Having said that, I feel that quality mineral supplements make me feel much better so that is an important piece of the puzzle. > > Marti > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 Hi Rich, Thanks for this. When you say due to a partial block of aconitase carbohydrate is not readily used as a fuel, does this mean the carbs are laid down as fat rather than being used for energy? Many thanks bel Sent from my iPhone On 21 Apr 2012, at 20:32, " rvankonynen " <richvank@...> wrote: > Hi, Steve. > > In the GD-MCB hypothesis for ME/CFS that I have proposed, the carb resistance is caused by glutathione depletion in the mitochondria, which causes a partial block in aconitase in the Krebs cycle. This can be seen in the results of urine organic acids tests. Since carbs must enter the cycle just upstream of the partial block, they are not readily used for fuel in ME/CFS. The same holds for fats. > Protein is the most useful fuel until the glutathione level is restored, because the amino acids from protein can enter the Krebs cycle beyond this partial block. However, it is necessary to have sufficient levels of B2, B6 and biotin in order for this to continue, and many PWMEs go low in these over time. > > In the long run, methylation treatment will raise glutathione and correct this situation. > > Best regards, > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > > > I posted this on another group but this particular problem does > > > not seem to affect most of them > > > > > > > > > > When I fatigue from overwork /can't get enough rest /am in > > > adverse conditions ,(too hot, to cold,high elevations) etc.I get a > > > ravenous appetite for usually high saturated fat foods like bacon, > > > chips, fatty meats. > > > > > > > > > > Researching this I have concluded tenatively this is what > > > happens. The body gets fatigued and can't expell toxins well , so > > > the body has to do something with the poisons and it increases > > > appetitie to increase fat to have a place to sequester the stuff > > > > > > > > > > So far anything that helps the body expell bad stuff like coffee > > > retension enemas, moppers saunas etc helps but these solutions only > > > help so much. > > > > > > > > > > I will say the more the abx beats infection down and whatever > > > else there is the less of a problem this is ,but it's still a > > > problem . Having to much body weight is not healthy and doesn't look > > > good either > > > > > > > > > > So I have some questions > > > > > > > > > > Do any of you have this problem of ravenous appetite in response > > > to stressors and if so what do you do about it ? > > > > > > > > > > Could thiese symptoms be from some other kind of infection/ > > > problem? > > > > > > > > > > This is a real problem for me because extra body weight is not > > > healthy and doesn't look good either > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Hi Rich Thanks for your efforts at educating us Well I know one person that has been on the methylation protocol for around four years I am not so sure that is the full answer or maybe this person has a very large backlog of toxins to get out Also he seems to function best on a high sat fat diet with moderate amounts of protein Steve On Apr 21, 2012, at 12:32 PM, rvankonynen wrote: > Hi, Steve. > > In the GD-MCB hypothesis for ME/CFS that I have proposed, the carb > resistance is caused by glutathione depletion in the mitochondria, > which causes a partial block in aconitase in the Krebs cycle. This > can be seen in the results of urine organic acids tests. Since carbs > must enter the cycle just upstream of the partial block, they are > not readily used for fuel in ME/CFS. The same holds for fats. > Protein is the most useful fuel until the glutathione level is > restored, because the amino acids from protein can enter the Krebs > cycle beyond this partial block. However, it is necessary to have > sufficient levels of B2, B6 and biotin in order for this to > continue, and many PWMEs go low in these over time. > > In the long run, methylation treatment will raise glutathione and > correct this situation. > > Best regards, > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > > > I posted this on another group but this particular problem > does > > > not seem to affect most of them > > > > > > > > > > When I fatigue from overwork /can't get enough rest /am in > > > adverse conditions ,(too hot, to cold,high elevations) etc.I get a > > > ravenous appetite for usually high saturated fat foods like bacon, > > > chips, fatty meats. > > > > > > > > > > Researching this I have concluded tenatively this is what > > > happens. The body gets fatigued and can't expell toxins well , so > > > the body has to do something with the poisons and it increases > > > appetitie to increase fat to have a place to sequester the stuff > > > > > > > > > > So far anything that helps the body expell bad stuff like > coffee > > > retension enemas, moppers saunas etc helps but these solutions > only > > > help so much. > > > > > > > > > > I will say the more the abx beats infection down and whatever > > > else there is the less of a problem this is ,but it's still a > > > problem . Having to much body weight is not healthy and doesn't > look > > > good either > > > > > > > > > > So I have some questions > > > > > > > > > > Do any of you have this problem of ravenous appetite in > response > > > to stressors and if so what do you do about it ? > > > > > > > > > > Could thiese symptoms be from some other kind of infection/ > > > problem? > > > > > > > > > > This is a real problem for me because extra body weight is not > > > healthy and doesn't look good either > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Thanks Rich On Apr 22, 2012, at 2:18 PM, rvankonynen wrote: > Hi, Steve. > > Four years is a long time. I have some thoughts about why this > treatment doesn't help in some cases, which I posted to the PR forum > recently. I'll repost it here: > > Hi, all. > > I've written the following in order to try to see the " big picture " > concerning ME/CFS, in order to focus efforts going forward. These > are my own views at present. I of course may be wrong, and I have > probably left out some important things. I would appreciate > comments. I have taken the liberty of using the royal " we.(:-) > > My goal with respect to ME/CFS is for everyone who has it to be able > to completely recover as soon as possible. I realize that this is a > difficult goal to attain, but I believe it's the goal we need to have. > > So how do we work toward achieving this goal? I believe that we > first have to develop an understanding of this disorder, and that > this understanding will serve as the basis for developing effective > treatment. > > What aspects to we need to understand? I would say that we need to > understand the etiologies (root causes), the pathogenesis > (development of the disease process), the fundamental > pathophysiology (what's the core mechanism of what's wrong with the > way the body is working in this disorder) as well as additional > contributions to the pathophysiology due to features that accumulate > during the illness after the initial onset, and the symptoms, > explained on the basis of the pathophysiology. > > What do we need to treat? Based on experience up to now, I would say > that we need to treat the fundamental pathophysiology, but we also > need to treat the etiologies and the additional features that have > accumulated. I have learned this the hard way. > > Again, based on experience up to now, I would say that the > fundamental pathophysiology is the same in nearly all cases of ME/ > CFS, and it involves a chronic vicious circle mechanism that > includes depletion of glutathione, a functional deficiency of > vitamin B12, a partial block of methionine synthase (which links the > methylation cycle with the folate metabolism), and loss of folates > from the cells. Essentially everything else in ME/CFS (other than > direct effects of pathogens or initial toxins) stems from this > vicious circle. This is elaborated in the Swedish seminar here: > > http://iaomt.media.fnf.nu/2/skovde_2011_me_kroniskt_trotthetssyndrom/$%7Bweburl%\ 7D > > I believe that the etiologies, on the other hand, differ from one > case to another. For the sporadic cases of ME/CFS (as differentiated > from the cluster or epidemic cases), there is an inherited genetic > predisposition that is not yet well defined, but likely consists of > a collection of polymorphisms, the specific ones again differing > from one case to another. > > The coexistence of an inherited genetic predisposition and some > combination of a variety of physical, chemical, biological and/or > psychological/emotional stressors is the etiology of ME/CFS, in my > opinion. This variety of stressors has in common the characteristic > that they all place demands on glutathione, and if they are > sufficiently severe and long lasting in a person who has the genetic > predisposition, it appears that they will produce a large enough > depletion of glutathione to set up the chronic vicious circle > mechanism that I believe is the core of the pathophysiology of ME/CFS. > > What are the additional features that can accumulate during the > illness? I believe that they are toxins and infections by various > pathogens. They accumulate because two of the body's major defense > systems, i.e. the immune system and the detoxication system, are > rendered dysfunctional by the chronic vicious circle mechanism in > the pathophysiology of ME/CFS. > > Where are we now in terms of treatment of the aspects that must be > treated to bring about recovery? I would say that we have a basic > understanding of the methylation treatment necessary to overcome the > partial methylation cycle block in the pathophysiology, and it has > been possible to accomplish this in a majority of PWMEs who have > used this treatment. The essential part of the treatment is a > combination of a high-dosage of Vitamin B12 (of the order of 2 > milligrams per day) given sublingually or by injection, and one or > more active (chemically reduced) folates at approximately the RDA > for folate (400 to 800 micrograms per day). These two support the > methionine synthase reaction, which appears to be partially blocked > in ME/CFS. Successful treatment usually also includes other > supportive nutrients. > > However, there are still many who either experience no response from > this treatment, or who experience such severe exacerbation of > symptoms from it that they are not able to continue it. We need to > identify the reasons for these in each case, and treat them > effectively. > > In addition, we have found that in most cases, even though this > treatment overcomes the vicious circle mechanism and usually brings > significant symptomatic improvement, it is not the complete answer > for producing total recovery. There are many who experience > improvement in their methylation cycle, folates and glutathione from > this treatment, based on repeated lab testing, but their ratio of > reduced to oxidized glutathione does not return completely to > normal, suggesting that oxidative stress continues to be present. I > think this is due to the presence of the original etiologies and/or > the additional features that have accumulated. > > With regard to treating the etiologies and the additional features > that accumulate during the illness, I would say that we have had > success in some cases, but in many other cases these have not been > successfully identified or have not been successfully treated. More > work is needed to identify them and to develop treatment for them. > > What are some possible reasons why a PWME would experience no > response from the methylation treatment? One obvious possibility > might be that the person does not have the vicious circle mechanism > described above. Though this mechanism appears to be fundamental to > the pathophysiology of ME/CFS, there may be some people who have > similar symptoms but do not have this vicious circle. This is one of > the main reasons it is helpful to run the methylation pathways panel > (I refer here to the biochemical panel, not the genomic panel with a > similar name.) > > I suspect that another possibility is deficiency in one or more of > the essential nutrients for the methylation cycle and related > pathways. There are several vitamins, minerals and essential amino > acids needed to support this part of the metabolism, and many PWMEs > have been found to be deficient in some of them. Those who have > hemopyrrollactamuria (HPU) are a subset of this group. Again, > testing is available to determine whether there are deficiencies. > This includes direct determination of the levels of the nutrients in > the blood, measurements of certain enzyme activities that are > specific to particular nutrients, and inferring deficiencies from > metabolic tests (such as urine organic acids and amino acids in the > urine), hair mineral tests, and essential element tests in the > urine. The interpretation of hair testing is not simple or > straightforward and requires considerable understanding and > experience. Testing for HPU is also available. > > Another possibility is high body burdens of one or more toxic > metals, such as mercury, that are capable of blocking enzymes in > this part of the metabolism. Testing is available to look for these > in urine, blood, feces and hair, and chelation may be needed if the > levels of the toxic metals are high. > > Now, what about those who find this treatment to be intolerable? > There are several categories of this. One that is very common is an > increase in excitotoxicity when the treatment is started. This > involves symptoms such insomnia, anxiety, nervousness, a " wired " > feeling and hypersensitivity of the senses. This is likely due to an > initial further decrease in glutathione in the astrocyte cells of > the brain, as a result of conversion of more of the homocysteine to > methionine, so that less is available for supporting glutathione > synthesis. Sometimes lowering the dosages at first, especially of > Vitamin B12 and the folates, and increasing them slowly over time, > is effective. There is also a variety of substances that may help to > calm down the excitotoxicity, including GABA, theanine, magnesium, > taurine, grape seed extract, pycnogenol, progesterone cream, and > Valerian root. > > Another negative reaction, which is sometimes described as a " toxic " > feeling, is probably due to mobilization of toxins by the improved > sulfur metabolism, together with the time lag between mobilization > and excretion. If the digestive system is not operating well, it may > not be able to excrete toxins in the stool very well. If there is > low stomach acid, intestinal bacterial dysbiosis, malabsorption, and/ > or leaky gut syndrome, these may need to be diagnosed with > comprehensive stool testing and treated before the methylation > protocol can be used. If there is at least one bowel movement per > day, the use of various binders may help. These include activated > charcoal or modified citrus pectin, which will help to usher toxins > from the gut into the stools. Lemon juice (taking care to use a > drinking straw and to flush the teeth with water afterward) can help > to increase the excretion of some toxins into the urine. > > Another negative reaction can be caused by development of potassium > deficiency. This occurs because as the folates rise in the cells, > the cells are able to divide and reproduce more rapidly. Since > potassium is the most abundant positive ion inside all cells, this > produces a demand for potassium, which is generally low in PWMEs to > start with. Symptoms associated with low potassium include heart > palpitations and muscle spasms. The blood serum potassium level can > be measured with a standard comprehensive blood metabolic panel. > Supplementing with potassium supplements or foods high in potassium > may help with this. > > Now, what about the etiologies and additional features that > accumulate during the illness? > There is a wide variety of possibilities. First, there is ongoing > psychological or emotional stress. This may be difficult to avoid > because of life circumstances, but it is important to lower this to > achieve full recovery, because this will continue to place demands > on the HPA axis to secrete cortisol and on the sympathetic nervous > system to secrete norepinephrine and epinephrine, which will produce > oxidative stress and hence, continuing demands on glutathione. > > Ongoing exposure to toxins and especially biotoxins (for those who > are susceptible), must be eliminated, and as mentioned above, it may > be necessary to do chelation or FIR sauna treatments to lower the > levels of toxins. > > There is a variety of pathogens that can serve as etiologies or that > can accumulate during the illness. Some of them have ways of hiding > from the immune system and thus will need to be dealt with > specifically and directly. These may include Lyme disease and its > coinfections, intestinal bacterial dysbiosis (as mentioned above) > and yeast infection, a variety of viral infections, including > enteroviral infections (and possibly retroviral infections), > intracellular bacterial infections including mycoplasma, chlamydia > and rickettsia, infections involving root canals and cavitations > where teeth have been removed, sinus infections, including fungal as > well as MARCONS (multiple antibiotic resistant coagulase negative > Staphyloccus). Dealing with these infections is perhaps the most > difficult aspect of treating ME/CFS. Some PWMEs have histories of > many infections during the early part of their lives, before the > onset of ME/CFS, suggesting possible genetic deficiencies in their > immune systems. Testing for some of them (such as Lyme disease and > retroviruses) is not very clearcut at present. Treatments for some > of them are not always very effective. This is an area that needs a > lot more work. > > This is the status as I see it today. I would appreciate hearing > your thoughts. > > Best regards, > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I posted this on another group but this particular problem > > > does > > > > > not seem to affect most of them > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I fatigue from overwork /can't get enough rest /am in > > > > > adverse conditions ,(too hot, to cold,high elevations) etc.I > get a > > > > > ravenous appetite for usually high saturated fat foods like > bacon, > > > > > chips, fatty meats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Researching this I have concluded tenatively this is what > > > > > happens. The body gets fatigued and can't expell toxins > well , so > > > > > the body has to do something with the poisons and it increases > > > > > appetitie to increase fat to have a place to sequester the > stuff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far anything that helps the body expell bad stuff like > > > coffee > > > > > retension enemas, moppers saunas etc helps but these solutions > > > only > > > > > help so much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will say the more the abx beats infection down and > whatever > > > > > else there is the less of a problem this is ,but it's still a > > > > > problem . Having to much body weight is not healthy and > doesn't > > > look > > > > > good either > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So I have some questions > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do any of you have this problem of ravenous appetite in > > > response > > > > > to stressors and if so what do you do about it ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could thiese symptoms be from some other kind of > infection/ > > > > > problem? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a real problem for me because extra body weight > is not > > > > > healthy and doesn't look good either > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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