Vegan Diet

[Guest guest]

>> Certain aminos and proteins cannot be had in a true veg diet.

>> But that doesn't mean you can't supplement to achieve that required

balance.

Would you say this would include any type of vegan diet including

macrobiotic? How would a person know what to supplement for this

balance? J.

[Guest guest]

> While not a strict vegan myself, wanted to share some interesting

> before/after stories with the group:

>

....

> - A 39 yr old co-worker had been on BP medication for 12 years.

18 - 22lbs

> overweight, his family had a " chronic history " of high BP. I

suggested the

> McDougall Diet...four days into the diet he had to rush into to

see his

> doctor due to dizziness and being lightheaded. Reason? He was

> over-medicated and had to drop all BP meds at DAY 4!! Six weeks

later, his

> cholesterol is 140 (from 260) and he's lost 26lbs.

>

> Wanted to share this and see if there was any feedback/thoughts on

vegan

> diets with other people? I'm pretty much 60/20/20--no red meat,

etc., but,

> limited amounts of poultry and fish.

I'd have to say from my own personal experience that it has nothing

to do with the fact that the diet is vegan or excludes meats. That

is just my limited experience - obviously a well designed study

should be conducted to examine exactly what parameters affect the

changes, but I have personally seen my blood pressure and the blood

pressure of many clients drop significantly while on the type of

nutrition I advocate, which includes whole eggs and red meat. The

key is that it is a natural diet - in other words, whole,

unprocessed foods.

Therefore, I'd say since I have a few data points of people lowering

cholesterol, triglyercides, and blood pressure on a non-vegan diet

and you have a few data points on a vegan diet, then it probably

isn't the vegetables that are playing a role. What is the role? We'd

need a broader study designed specifically to understand that.

In health,

Likness

Atlanta, GA

[Guest guest]

One thing that would interest me, is that which vegies

and fruits would be available all year round before we

used (destructive & altering) preservation methods to

keep our food looking and tasting right?

And, if these vegies/fruits were not available all

year round, it would not make sense that we were built

to live on them year round, without any other source

of food ie meat/fish/poultry. We certainly would not

have evolved this function anyway.

Anyone know anything about seasonal vegetable/fruit

availability? I am not up with the play.

Joe Cole,

Dunedin, New Zealand

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> One thing that would interest me, is that which vegies

> and fruits would be available all year round before we

> used (destructive & altering) preservation methods to

> keep our food looking and tasting right?

>

> And, if these vegies/fruits were not available all

> year round, it would not make sense that we were built

> to live on them year round, without any other source

> of food ie meat/fish/poultry. We certainly would not

> have evolved this function anyway.

>

> Anyone know anything about seasonal vegetable/fruit

> availability? I am not up with the play.

>

> Joe Cole,

> Dunedin, New Zealand

Joe seeing how you live in New Zealand and I live in North America I

think we have a very simple answer to this question. The harvest

seasons for identical fruits and vegetables would be 6 months apart

in our respective hemispheres; with modern day transportation one

should have pretty good access to fresh fruits and vegetables year

round.

Citrus fruits are in season from the early fall to the early summer,

around 9 months. Thus there would be plenty of overlap time if one

trades fruit between hemispheres.

Roe

Winter Haven, FL

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Joe Cole writes:

One thing that would interest me, is that which vegies

and fruits would be available all year round before we

used (destructive & altering) preservation methods to

keep our food looking and tasting right?

Joe, I think it all depends on where one lives in the world as well as trade

routes through one's area.

For example, I live in the middle of the Sonoran desert. Before Anglos ran

the place over with cattle, then the WPA finalized destruction with sheep,

the Tucson valley offered year round growing seasons - three, to be precise.

And water, before the dams. Despite getting up to 115 in the summers, summer

crops grew. One could easily be vegan right here in the middle of the

Sonoran desert, in Tucson, which is known to have been continously settled

for at least 3,000 years - making it America's " oldest city " .

[A useful book to read with regard to the politics of the meat industry in N

America

is: Rifkin 'Beyond Beef.' Mel Siff]

Think of India, also a country with year-round crops. And myriad spices. The

folks of antiquity, probably going back to at least 500 BCE or more, traded

between India and the Mediterranean, and between India and China. Those

routes carried all sorts of spices, along with silk, etc. A visit to the

average Indian grocery reveals pretty much the same repetroire of shared

spices as does a visit to a market with the goods of Persia, Turkiye, much

of Greece, etc.

Of course, being a vegan in Tibet or Mongolia was out of question!

Ken O'Neill

Tucson, Arizona

[Guest guest]

Ok, So what you are saying is that some populations,

due to their environment were able to eat mainly

vegetarian diets in the past.

Now, since this can not be the case for every person,

and since a lot of use like eating meat, wouldnt this

make for the " meatabolic types " that we hear about?

Some people do better on certain sorts of diets,

mainly due to their evolutionary background?

I have been a proponent of this for a long time, as it

makes sense, and could explain why some indigenous

populations of some areas are developing greater rates

of obesity/diabetes/heart disease than causasoids, due

to their history of eating higher protein diets.

I agree with you that vegan diets are good for some

people, but we have to be careful about making blanket

statements, as there is no one diet for everyone.

I think once biochemical analysis gets better and

cheaper (which is part of my research area for my

masters), we will see a great improvement in the

ability to help all people, not just some, by

prescribing individualised diets and exercise regimes

suited to that persons metabolism.

Joe Cole, Msc Candidate (Biotechnology),Dip Grad

Dunedin, New Zealand

--- Ken O'Neill wrote:

> Joe Cole writes:

>

> One thing that would interest me, is that which

> vegies

> and fruits would be available all year round before

> we

> used (destructive & altering) preservation methods

> to

> keep our food looking and tasting right?

>

> Joe, I think it all depends on where one lives in

> the world as well as trade

> routes through one's area.

>

> For example, I live in the middle of the Sonoran

> desert. Before Anglos ran

> the place over with cattle, then the WPA finalized

> destruction with sheep,

> the Tucson valley offered year round growing seasons

> - three, to be precise.

> And water, before the dams. Despite getting up to

> 115 in the summers, summer

> crops grew. One could easily be vegan right here in

> the middle of the

> Sonoran desert, in Tucson, which is known to have

> been continously settled

> for at least 3,000 years - making it America's

> " oldest city " .

>

> [A useful book to read with regard to the politics

> of the meat industry in N America

> is: Rifkin 'Beyond Beef.' Mel Siff]

>

> Think of India, also a country with year-round

> crops. And myriad spices. The

> folks of antiquity, probably going back to at least

> 500 BCE or more, traded

> between India and the Mediterranean, and between

> India and China. Those

> routes carried all sorts of spices, along with silk,

> etc. A visit to the

> average Indian grocery reveals pretty much the same

> repetroire of shared

> spices as does a visit to a market with the goods of

> Persia, Turkiye, much

> of Greece, etc.

>

> Of course, being a vegan in Tibet or Mongolia was

> out of question!

>

> Ken O'Neill

> Tucson, Arizona

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> >Ok, So what you are saying is that some populations,

> due to their environment were able to eat mainly

> vegetarian diets in the past.

In some instances, yes. In others, no.

Again, I'm not vegan but try to eat primarily plant based foods because of 1)

the high fat content of today's meats, 2) the amount of chemical residues in

the fat and 3) to some extent, the affect on agri-business on the environment

in the US. For example: the state of North Carolina or South Carolina (?) is

suffering from huge pollution problems because of feces and urine spilling

over from animal waste pits into the rivers, creating an incredible

ecological disaster.

>

> Now, since this can not be the case for every person,

> and since a lot of use like eating meat, wouldnt this

> make for the " meatabolic types " that we hear about?

Dr. Klaper of UCLA has done studies as has a doctor (MD)...I can dig

up his name if you're interested...from the National Cancer Institute (in the

US) have published several papers refuting the position of metabolic types

who thrive better on protein diets unless there are specific medical issues.

I'd also refer you to Dr. Gerald Reavens, MD/PhD, from Stanford University in

the US. Reavens is one of the leading endocrinology researchers in the world

whose work, per Dr. Reavens, has been misquoted by diet doctors from Atkins

to Sears regarding his position on high protein diets be more metabolically

beneficial. His commercially available book, _Syndrome X_, describes his

position on this.

I'm not saying people who eat lean, clean protein won't thrive--health wise.

History has proven repeatedly that hunter-gatherer populations lived

incredibly healthy, disease-free lives.

>

> I have been a proponent of this for a long time, as it

> makes sense, and could explain why some indigenous

> populations of some areas are developing greater rates

> of obesity/diabetes/heart disease than causasoids, due

> to their history of eating higher protein diets.

I agree!! See above.

>

> I agree with you that vegan diets are good for some

> people, but we have to be careful about making blanket

> statements, as there is no one diet for everyone.

Here is where we might agree to disagree. Unless there is some underlying

medical pre-disposition, I believe consuming lean, clean foods--whether they

are meat or plant based--will lead benefit the majority of any population.

In fact, I'll be everyone on the board would agree humans, for the most part,

succeed best on an omnivore-based diet. But, the foods on this diet should

be free of hormones, rendered feeds (where they're throwing in the whole dog

or cat including collar or diseased farm animal), concentrated levels of

antibiotics, etc. This is something that we, in US, can't be sure can be

achieved while strolling up and down the aisles of our grocery chains.

Houston, TX

[Guest guest]

Many people have suggested a vegan or other vegetarian diet.

Just thought I'd let you, if you have hypothyroidism, you cannot convert

Beta-Caroteneto Vitamin A. And some people, like me cannot convert vegetable

protein to all the essential amino acids.

[Guest guest]

A lot of people find it hard to balance a vegan or vegetarian diet, as

do some with eating meat as their body doesn't digest the protein

without adding digestive enzymes. When I went on my food allergy

rotation diet in 2003, I was constantly feeling like I was missing

something because I couldn't eat certain foods. I went back from being a

vegetarian for 15 years to eating some beef, turkey and salmon as my

body was craving protein as carbs were not making me feel good. I don't

eat it every day, but I can tell when my body is saying, eat more

protein (nuts weren't enough and I can't combine rice and beans for a

complimentary protein due to allergies). I cook at a private boarding

school and we do vegetarian, vegan, and food allergy cooking, so I see

many try different lifestyles. Some do well on each type, so you have to

experiment but make sure you get enough supplements of vitamins and

minerals to balance what the diet is lacking for your body. It isn't

easy, it's a life long process, keep learning and trying. It's scary in

today's world of food contaminations. Eat the healthiest you can, and if

you eat meats, don't do them fried or in lots of sauces and things that

aren't healthy.

in La Selva Beach CA

On 4/29/2012 10:55 PM, Mira Ghoshal wrote: Dear Group,

>

> After not eating meat for about 13 years, I found myself on an

> airplane without having the airline know that I am a vegetarian. I

> decided not to go hungry and I had lean pork with my lunch and then

> some ham for the evening meal with my bread. The result was just

> horrible and lasted a few days after the plane trip. I had problems

> with my digestion even after I went back to eating my usual diet and

> my intestines swelled up so that I had a great big bell.

>

> I remember feeling so well at the age of 36 when I made the decision

> not to eat meat. I felt very light and I had much more energy. Now I

> realize what had happened: I takes a lot of energy to digest animal

> products and that energy was now freed to be used up for my own life.

> I walked more and I ran with my dogs in the woods for a lot longer.

> The dogs helped me to maintain a healthy weight because I had to take

> them out for their exercise. Now I have a large back yard and they run

> by themselves, and so not being out with them for at least one hour a

> day and the bad habit of eating chocolate has put on 15 lbs on me.

>

> I realize that kind of lifestyle is not for everybody and I am not

> trying to convert any of you, but perhaps some of you will try not to

> eat heavy meaty foods for one day and see how you feel on that day. It

> may just give you more energy on a temporary basis.

>

> Mira

>

>

> <mailto:%40>

> From: burmanbarbara@... <mailto:burmanbarbara%40>

> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 20:00:34 -0700

> Subject: Vegan Diet

>

> Many people have suggested a vegan or other vegetarian diet.

>

> Just thought I'd let you, if you have hypothyroidism, you cannot

> convert Beta-Caroteneto Vitamin A. And some people, like me cannot

> convert vegetable protein to all the essential amino acids.

>

[Guest guest]

meatless didnt work for me either. any elimination diet made my CFS worse

________________________________

From: Administrator1 <stangah@...>

Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 12:05:39 AM

Subject: Re: Vegan Diet

 

I have tried a meatless diet and not been successful

I need some kind of Saturated Fat to be healthy

Many will not agree with this

I am still working on it though

On Apr 30, 2012, at 3:36 PM, Schmidt wrote:

> A lot of people find it hard to balance a vegan or vegetarian diet, as

> do some with eating meat as their body doesn't digest the protein

> without adding digestive enzymes. When I went on my food allergy

> rotation diet in 2003, I was constantly feeling like I was missing

> something because I couldn't eat certain foods. I went back from

> being a

> vegetarian for 15 years to eating some beef, turkey and salmon as my

> body was craving protein as carbs were not making me feel good. I

> don't

> eat it every day, but I can tell when my body is saying, eat more

> protein (nuts weren't enough and I can't combine rice and beans for a

> complimentary protein due to allergies). I cook at a private boarding

> school and we do vegetarian, vegan, and food allergy cooking, so I see

> many try different lifestyles. Some do well on each type, so you

> have to

> experiment but make sure you get enough supplements of vitamins and

> minerals to balance what the diet is lacking for your body. It isn't

> easy, it's a life long process, keep learning and trying. It's scary

> in

> today's world of food contaminations. Eat the healthiest you can,

> and if

> you eat meats, don't do them fried or in lots of sauces and things

> that

> aren't healthy.

>

> in La Selva Beach CA

>

> On 4/29/2012 10:55 PM, Mira Ghoshal wrote: Dear Group,

> >

> > After not eating meat for about 13 years, I found myself on an

> > airplane without having the airline know that I am a vegetarian. I

> > decided not to go hungry and I had lean pork with my lunch and then

> > some ham for the evening meal with my bread. The result was just

> > horrible and lasted a few days after the plane trip. I had problems

> > with my digestion even after I went back to eating my usual diet and

> > my intestines swelled up so that I had a great big bell.

> >

> > I remember feeling so well at the age of 36 when I made the decision

> > not to eat meat. I felt very light and I had much more energy. Now I

> > realize what had happened: I takes a lot of energy to digest animal

> > products and that energy was now freed to be used up for my own

> life.

> > I walked more and I ran with my dogs in the woods for a lot longer.

> > The dogs helped me to maintain a healthy weight because I had to

> take

> > them out for their exercise. Now I have a large back yard and they

> run

> > by themselves, and so not being out with them for at least one

> hour a

> > day and the bad habit of eating chocolate has put on 15 lbs on me.

> >

> > I realize that kind of lifestyle is not for everybody and I am not

> > trying to convert any of you, but perhaps some of you will try not

> to

> > eat heavy meaty foods for one day and see how you feel on that

> day. It

> > may just give you more energy on a temporary basis.

> >

> > Mira

> >

> >

> > <mailto:%40>

> > From: burmanbarbara@... <mailto:burmanbarbara%40>

> > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 20:00:34 -0700

> > Subject: Vegan Diet

> >

> > Many people have suggested a vegan or other vegetarian diet.

> >

> > Just thought I'd let you, if you have hypothyroidism, you cannot

> > convert Beta-Caroteneto Vitamin A. And some people, like me cannot

> > convert vegetable protein to all the essential amino acids.

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have found recently that I do better with less meat in my diet. I simply

don't have the energy to digest it. So two days a week I do a apple & carrot

juice breakfast and two days I do a berry smoothie with pea protein powder.

For lunch I try to do soup or salads.

Again, not trying to limit meat (or fat) - my body just doesn't want to

expend the energy to digest it.

[Guest guest]

Hi Mira,

 

I think that you will find that most long-term ME and CFS patients have looked

at their diets and tried many different things. Some people have had success bit

it does seem to be very individual.

 

Personally, my worst diet attempts were those without meat. I felt much weaker

not eating meat each day.  

The worst foods for me are carbs and green veges. Fibre is a big problem and

that's what causes the huge swollen stomachs for me much of the time. Digestive

enzymes and betaine HLC makes a huge difference for me in digesting any foods

(and that includes fruit, veges, salads etc).

Something that I cannot eat too much of is pork and it may be that both of us

have a sensitivity to this (reading about the reaction you had). I've often

wondered if the pork is helping to activate a herpes virus or something?

 

I'd love to be well enough to have a pet or run with dogs. Post exertional

problems make this impossible for me so I don't have a choice in losing weight

that way. It's dangerous for me and I end up far sicker and bedbound with ME

symptoms.

 

Putting on weight for me is not related to what I eat in any conventional or

easy sense and certainly not chocolate or sweets. The times I have been well

enough to try some exercise hasn't resulted in any weight loss.

Once after having terrible food poisoning my diet was mainly cold veges and

salads and I didn't lose any weight at all. My gastroenterologist began to take

ME seriously then when he saw how malnourished I became and how swollen and

" fat " I still was.

 

Hope that you continue to make lifestyle changes that help with your own unique

body. It's always good to find a bit of the personal puzzle.

 

Good luck

regards,

Annette

[Guest guest]

Dear Group,

Today I received a trigger that would have sent me to the store to buy

chocolate. One of my cats has been quite ill, I am sure that when I get away

from the computer and drive to the vet, her decision will be to let the cat go

and to end its suffering. All of a sudden all of CFS symptoms have flared up: My

heart is racing, my head hurts, my sinuses hurt, I am weak, I am exhausted and I

am dizzy. I have to drive anyway about 15 km to the vet and do what I am

supposed to do to help the cat in its last journey on this earth.

So the ravenous eating of sweets is definitely from stress...

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions. I will write more when I am over what

I have to get done this morning.

Mira S. Ghoshal

Village of Teresin,

Mazowsze Region,

Poland

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

So you have the same reaction to meat as I had, that is, you feel better when

you do not eat it. Meat is very hard to digest because the body has to brake

down complex proteins and make them available as nourishment for us. When I

stopped eating meat 17 years ago, I felt so much lighter and I had so much more

energy at my disposal. By body did not work as hard as it did before to keep me

alive in digesting heavy animal products.

Mira