Re: Gosio's Disease/SIDS/SBS/CFS Cover-Up

[Guest guest]

> I put my story in the bmj and described the " mycotoxin connection "

> between SIDS and CFS as being mediated by potentiated toxins from

> common molds - and got not one single response.

>

I of course think that the sids can be from mold, that is how I got

ill. I also have suggested to my local government that since they

put the exhaust systems by windows in most new apartments, etc. that

the chemicals that emit from the dryers and when people cook and

shower could be a cause of sids. If the window is open and someone is

using their dryer, the fumes are so bad in my apartment. Of course no

one called me back.

[Guest guest]

Wow, you guys are going to freak when I find the article I read about

what actually causes SIDS. They figured it out in New Zealand which

had the highest SIDS rates in the world. It has to do with many toxic

chemicals they use in baby mattresses to make them fireproof along with

a fungus that likes to grow in the mattress and it all comes together

with heat, like that from a baby with a fever or a heating blanket.

I'll find the article, give me some time!!

> > I put my story in the bmj and described the " mycotoxin connection "

> > between SIDS and CFS as being mediated by potentiated toxins from

> > common molds - and got not one single response.

> >

> I of course think that the sids can be from mold, that is how I got

> ill. I also have suggested to my local government that since they

> put the exhaust systems by windows in most new apartments, etc. that

> the chemicals that emit from the dryers and when people cook and

> shower could be a cause of sids. If the window is open and someone

is

> using their dryer, the fumes are so bad in my apartment. Of course

no

> one called me back.

[Guest guest]

Pizza guy is this the article you were refering to:

Subject: The Cot Death Cover-Up

http://www.pnc.com.au/~cafmr/reviews2.html#poison

The Cot Death Cover-Up?

by Dr Jim Sprott

THE COT DEATH COVER-UP? is the culmination of over fifteen years of

cot death research by the author, a highly respected consulting

chemist and forensic scientist from New Zealand.

In 1986 Sprott arrived at the conclusion that babies were succumbing

to cot death because of inadvertent gaseous poisoning by an

extremely toxic nerve gas generated by microbiological action on

something within the baby's cot, but he wasn't able to identify the

gas. Then in 1989 consulting scientist Barry , working

independently in Britain came to the same conclusion and in addition

identified the offending gases. It was not long before the two

teamed-up to work on what they describe as the "

Hypothesis " .

According to Sprott the three identified gases that were generated

from mattresses on which babies died of SIDS are " phosphine, arsine

and stibine, all extremely toxic 'nerve gases'. They are produced by

the action of the otherwise harmless fungus Scopulariopsis

brevicaulis on substances containing phosphorus, arsenic and

antimony. These elements are often present in cot and other

mattresses. " These odourless but intensely poisonous gases, with

toxicities about 100 times as great as hydrogen cyanide (prussic

acid), act upon the baby's nervous system to inhibit breathing and

heart function.

The problem, in fact, has been first identified as far back as the

1880's when the mystery of thousands of unexpected child deaths

throughout Western Europe and the UK was solved by Italian chemist

Gosio. He had discovered that deaths were due to a toxic gas, arsine

and/or alkyl homologues generated by the micro-organism

Scopulariopsis brevicaulis (then known as Penicillium brevicaules).

It acted upon copper arsenate, used in green pigments in wallpaper,

and arsenious oxide, used as a preservative in wallpaper glue.

THE COT DEATH COVER-UP? contains ample evidence supporting Sprott

and 's findings. Among the many graphs it contains one

that demonstrates the rapid drop in cot deaths in Britain in 1986-

1994. The graph, based on official statistics, shows that when the

findings were first made public in mid-1989 the SIDS rate started to

fall immediately, dropping 35 per cent by the time the

official " Back to Sleep " campaign was launched in December 1991. In

the period 1989-1994, Britain saw a staggering 70 per cent reduction

in the SIDS rate.

Despite these remarkable results, Sprott and were

fiercely opposed by their respective country's health authorities

and official SIDS groups. Their struggle for official recognition of

their findings is reminiscent to that of other independent SIDS

researchers such as Dr Archie Kalokerinos and Dr Glen Dettman, who

had proved that severe depletion of a child's vitamin C level,

precipitated by various insults including childhood vaccinations,

could predispose it to SIDS.

The author says that the book is not aimed at academics (although

its first-class material should suffice their snobbery), but is

aimed at parents - parents who have to suffer the consequences of a

system that puts them and their babies last in the " war " against

this human tragedy known as SIDS.

Published in 1996 by Penguin Books (NZ). Available through most

major bookstores.

> > > I put my story in the bmj and described the " mycotoxin

connection "

> > > between SIDS and CFS as being mediated by potentiated toxins

from

> > > common molds - and got not one single response.

> > >

> > I of course think that the sids can be from mold, that is how I

got

> > ill. I also have suggested to my local government that since

they

> > put the exhaust systems by windows in most new apartments, etc.

that

> > the chemicals that emit from the dryers and when people cook

and

> > shower could be a cause of sids. If the window is open and

someone

> is

> > using their dryer, the fumes are so bad in my apartment. Of

course

> no

> > one called me back.

[Guest guest]

Actually I think that was the original one I saw, but I found another

one while trying to find that one! It is so amazing how government

values money over our lives while I'm sure I speak for all of us in

that we all value our and and our families health more than anything!

-- In , " tigerpaw2c " <tigerpaw2c@y...>

wrote:

> Pizza guy is this the article you were refering to:

>

> Subject: The Cot Death Cover-Up

>

>

>

> http://www.pnc.com.au/~cafmr/reviews2.html#poison

>

> The Cot Death Cover-Up?

>

> by Dr Jim Sprott

>

> THE COT DEATH COVER-UP? is the culmination of over fifteen years of

> cot death research by the author, a highly respected consulting

> chemist and forensic scientist from New Zealand.

>

> In 1986 Sprott arrived at the conclusion that babies were succumbing

> to cot death because of inadvertent gaseous poisoning by an

> extremely toxic nerve gas generated by microbiological action on

> something within the baby's cot, but he wasn't able to identify the

> gas. Then in 1989 consulting scientist Barry , working

> independently in Britain came to the same conclusion and in addition

> identified the offending gases. It was not long before the two

> teamed-up to work on what they describe as the "

> Hypothesis " .

>

> According to Sprott the three identified gases that were generated

> from mattresses on which babies died of SIDS are " phosphine, arsine

> and stibine, all extremely toxic 'nerve gases'. They are produced by

> the action of the otherwise harmless fungus Scopulariopsis

> brevicaulis on substances containing phosphorus, arsenic and

> antimony. These elements are often present in cot and other

> mattresses. " These odourless but intensely poisonous gases, with

> toxicities about 100 times as great as hydrogen cyanide (prussic

> acid), act upon the baby's nervous system to inhibit breathing and

> heart function.

>

> The problem, in fact, has been first identified as far back as the

> 1880's when the mystery of thousands of unexpected child deaths

> throughout Western Europe and the UK was solved by Italian chemist

> Gosio. He had discovered that deaths were due to a toxic gas, arsine

> and/or alkyl homologues generated by the micro-organism

> Scopulariopsis brevicaulis (then known as Penicillium brevicaules).

> It acted upon copper arsenate, used in green pigments in wallpaper,

> and arsenious oxide, used as a preservative in wallpaper glue.

>

> THE COT DEATH COVER-UP? contains ample evidence supporting Sprott

> and 's findings. Among the many graphs it contains one

> that demonstrates the rapid drop in cot deaths in Britain in 1986-

> 1994. The graph, based on official statistics, shows that when the

> findings were first made public in mid-1989 the SIDS rate started to

> fall immediately, dropping 35 per cent by the time the

> official " Back to Sleep " campaign was launched in December 1991. In

> the period 1989-1994, Britain saw a staggering 70 per cent reduction

> in the SIDS rate.

>

> Despite these remarkable results, Sprott and were

> fiercely opposed by their respective country's health authorities

> and official SIDS groups. Their struggle for official recognition of

> their findings is reminiscent to that of other independent SIDS

> researchers such as Dr Archie Kalokerinos and Dr Glen Dettman, who

> had proved that severe depletion of a child's vitamin C level,

> precipitated by various insults including childhood vaccinations,

> could predispose it to SIDS.

>

> The author says that the book is not aimed at academics (although

> its first-class material should suffice their snobbery), but is

> aimed at parents - parents who have to suffer the consequences of a

> system that puts them and their babies last in the " war " against

> this human tragedy known as SIDS.

>

> Published in 1996 by Penguin Books (NZ). Available through most

> major bookstores.

>

>

>

>

>

> > > > I put my story in the bmj and described the " mycotoxin

> connection "

> > > > between SIDS and CFS as being mediated by potentiated toxins

> from

> > > > common molds - and got not one single response.

> > > >

> > > I of course think that the sids can be from mold, that is how I

> got

> > > ill. I also have suggested to my local government that

since

> they

> > > put the exhaust systems by windows in most new apartments, etc.

> that

> > > the chemicals that emit from the dryers and when people cook

> and

> > > shower could be a cause of sids. If the window is open and

> someone

> > is

> > > using their dryer, the fumes are so bad in my apartment. Of

> course

> > no

> > > one called me back.

[Guest guest]

Those of you who are using " sense of smell " to identify mold threats

might want to read the " odourless " part again.

-

> > According to Sprott the three identified gases that were generated

from mattresses on which babies died of SIDS are " phosphine, arsine

and stibine, all extremely toxic 'nerve gases'. They are produced by

the action of the otherwise harmless fungus Scopulariopsis brevicaulis

on substances containing phosphorus, arsenic and antimony. These

elements are often present in cot and other mattresses. " These

odourless but intensely poisonous gases, with toxicities about 100

times as great as hydrogen cyanide (prussic acid), act upon the baby's

nervous system to inhibit breathing and heart function.<<

> >

[Guest guest]

The smell thing is only part of it. Just because you don't smell it, doesn't

mean it isn't there. But if you DO smell it, it's definitely there.

Not everyone is blessed (or perhaps cursed) with the same olfactory acuity -

even Moldies.

erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

Those of you who are using " sense of smell " to identify mold threats

might want to read the " odourless " part again.

-

Serena

www.freeboards.net/index.php?mforum=sickgovernmentb

---------------------------------

for Good

Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

[Guest guest]

> > > I put my story in the bmj and described the " mycotoxin connection "

> > > between SIDS and CFS as being mediated by potentiated toxins from

> > > common molds - and got not one single response.

> > >

> > I of course think that the sids can be from mold, that is how I got

> > ill. I also have suggested to my local government that since they

> > put the exhaust systems by windows in most new apartments, etc. that

> > the chemicals that emit from the dryers and when people cook and

> > shower could be a cause of sids. If the window is open and someone

> is

> > using their dryer, the fumes are so bad in my apartment. Of course

> no

> > one called me back.

[Guest guest]

SERENA EDWARDS < wrote:

> The smell thing is only part of it. Just because you don't smell it,

doesn't mean it isn't there. But if you DO smell it, it's definitely

there.

>

Been a lot of musty places that have no effect upon me at all.

I treat odors with suspicion, but nothing more.

There are simply too many places that have normal deomposition, musty

odors, smuts and yeasts but not toxic mold that one would have to

worry needlessly about.

-

[Guest guest]

KL, PLEASE SEND ME THAT ARTICLE DIRECTLY, IF YOU WILL?

THANKS!

VICTORIA

[] Re: Gosio's Disease/SIDS/SBS/CFS Cover-Up

>

>> > > I put my story in the bmj and described the " mycotoxin connection "

>> > > between SIDS and CFS as being mediated by potentiated toxins from

>> > > common molds - and got not one single response.

>> > >

>> > I of course think that the sids can be from mold, that is how I got

>> > ill. I also have suggested to my local government that since they

>> > put the exhaust systems by windows in most new apartments, etc. that

>> > the chemicals that emit from the dryers and when people cook and

>> > shower could be a cause of sids. If the window is open and someone

>> is

>> > using their dryer, the fumes are so bad in my apartment. Of course

>> no

>> > one called me back.

>

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> 1.smuts and yeasts but not toxic mold that one would have to

> worry needlessly about.

> -

Mold is a natural, normal and NECESSARY part of the environment.

If Moldies act like every type of mold is toxic, it will not add to

our credibility.

It will backfire like the concept that all bacteria must be bad simply

because it IS bacteria, but without beneficial intestinal bacterial

flora, the not so beneficial buggers move in.

Mold is bad when it is harmful, but not when it is performing a normal

environmental saprophytic function.

-

[Guest guest]

Purify the air all around you and your sense of smell will go way up,

at least it did for my wife and I. When you go from really clean air

to bad, you'll know instantly!!

>

> Those of you who are using " sense of smell " to identify mold

threats

> might want to read the " odourless " part again.

> -

>

>

>

> Serena

> www.freeboards.net/index.php?mforum=sickgovernmentb

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> for Good

> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

>

>

[Guest guest]

" Prof. Tang Lee " wrote:

> at erikmoldwarrior@e... raises the connection between SIDS

> and mould exposure, reminds me of a Ph.D students I was advising

back in 1998. She was concern about aboriginal health and conducted

her dissertation on this subject. I advised her to sample for moulds

in houses with SIDS death as I knew they were built with dirt-

covered crawlspaces and would likely have high mould concentrations.

>

What Dr TJ Sprott has consistently demonstrated with the BabeSafe

system in the Maori Tribe in New Zealand is that controlling for

potentiated mycotoxin exposure is the single most important variable.

The commonality between CFS and SIDS is that the infection/cytokine

events which have been heretofore implicated as causative simply do

not possess the pathogenic potential when the mycotoxin exposure is

eliminated.

This is the precise scenario we had in Truckee High school, Ground

Zero for the symptom concurrency that made the CFS syndrome apparent.

The teacher cluster described in Osler's Web was repeated at North

Tahoe High school but with fewer sufferers - but the same mold:

Stachy.

I was just visiting my old school recently and it is STILL a mold

slammer - but without the accompanying cytokine challenge of the

transient infectious agent - it remains a subclinical immune

suppressor. As I looked in the famous " teachers lounge " where nine

teachers all became chronically ill, a student was doing a " deep

yawn " indicative of oxygen deprivation. One could easily dismiss

this as normal student sleep disorder, but I know the sensation and

that it occurs no matter how much sleep I've had - in the presence

of specific mycotoxins!

I challenge any " mold responder " to take the Incline Village CFS

mold tour and determine for yourself if these places have the

potential for such an effect!

I will take you there personally.

-

[Guest guest]

I can tell if mycotoxins are present within 5-10 seconds of entering

a room. I can literally sense the sudden IQ drop that comes with

brain fog and sudden fatigue.

> > at erikmoldwarrior@e... raises the connection between SIDS

> > and mould exposure, reminds me of a Ph.D students I was advising

> back in 1998. She was concern about aboriginal health and conducted

> her dissertation on this subject. I advised her to sample for

moulds

> in houses with SIDS death as I knew they were built with dirt-

> covered crawlspaces and would likely have high mould concentrations.

> >

>

> What Dr TJ Sprott has consistently demonstrated with the BabeSafe

> system in the Maori Tribe in New Zealand is that controlling for

> potentiated mycotoxin exposure is the single most important

variable.

> The commonality between CFS and SIDS is that the

infection/cytokine

> events which have been heretofore implicated as causative simply do

> not possess the pathogenic potential when the mycotoxin exposure is

> eliminated.

> This is the precise scenario we had in Truckee High school, Ground

> Zero for the symptom concurrency that made the CFS syndrome

apparent.

> The teacher cluster described in Osler's Web was repeated at North

> Tahoe High school but with fewer sufferers - but the same mold:

> Stachy.

> I was just visiting my old school recently and it is STILL a mold

> slammer - but without the accompanying cytokine challenge of the

> transient infectious agent - it remains a subclinical immune

> suppressor. As I looked in the famous " teachers lounge " where nine

> teachers all became chronically ill, a student was doing a " deep

> yawn " indicative of oxygen deprivation. One could easily dismiss

> this as normal student sleep disorder, but I know the sensation and

> that it occurs no matter how much sleep I've had - in the presence

> of specific mycotoxins!

> I challenge any " mold responder " to take the Incline Village CFS

> mold tour and determine for yourself if these places have the

> potential for such an effect!

> I will take you there personally.

> -

[Guest guest]

True - however - the smell alone is reason to be particularly aware and take

stock of one's surroundings. I'd really rather not be housebound for weeks or

months on end because I mistakenly thought it was " just " yeast or mildew.

erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

> 1.smuts and yeasts but not toxic mold that one would have to

> worry needlessly about.

> -

Mold is a natural, normal and NECESSARY part of the environment.

If Moldies act like every type of mold is toxic, it will not add to

our credibility.

It will backfire like the concept that all bacteria must be bad simply

because it IS bacteria, but without beneficial intestinal bacterial

flora, the not so beneficial buggers move in.

Mold is bad when it is harmful, but not when it is performing a normal

environmental saprophytic function.

-

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

" pizzahutoxic " < wrote:

> I can tell if mycotoxins are present within 5-10 seconds of

entering a room. I can literally sense the sudden IQ drop that comes

with brain fog and sudden fatigue.

>

When I refer to " Extreme Mycotoxin Avoidance " , my premise is that

almost anyone can learn to detect a " mold slam " from highly

contaminated areas - and I have taught many people to perceive mold at

least this much, which is fairly easy to do.

When my illness failed to improve by simply moving from such " sick

buildings " and staying out of these overt exposures, I concentrated on

subtleties that are not so apparent.

Relying on the indicators of exposure that are described in this group

were not sufficient to make a significant improvement for someone at

my level of reactivity.

Before Melinda Ballards " toxic Tara " story broke in USA TODAY,

virtually all people that I came into contact with in the Reno-Tahoe

area vehemently denied that mold had any serious effects whatsoever,

and that includes dozens of doctors/allergists/immunologists in

Sacramento as well - so " Mold Avoidance " was a completely novel

concept. As I met more people who were determining for themselves

that mold was something to be avoided, their responses conveyed the

impression that all I was doing was turning around and walking out

of " bad places " and that they were already practicing mold avoidance

by cutting mold off the cheese and throwing away old bread.

I'm sure that this level of avoidance is entirely appropriate for

most people, but it is not what I am describing.

As I said in Mold Warriors, when I realized that these exposures

resembled the simulations for Nerve agent attacks in biological

warfare training, I employed the same basic avoidance and

decontamination protocols I was taught in the Army.

This is what separates my definition of " Extreme Avoidance " from the

concept of merely staying away from sick buildings.

Despite my descriptions of employing a more concerted and specialized

decontamination and avoidance strategy, the impression that most

people generate is that I am practicing a " No Brainer " of walking away

from places that knock me flat. At the very least I can tell you that

when that was all I was doing, I wound up in Dr s ampligen

program being told " You are at a point where most people with CFS

commit suicide " . My impression of other people with CFS is that they

are avoiding " bad places " by just walking away, and their results were

equally unsatisfactory.

I made an experiment of taking avoidance to the level consistent with

military training for battlefield nerve agent contamination, and the

difficulty in making people understand this is that the mental image

they tend to visualize is the allergy model in which a Hepa filter and

stepping away from the offending substance is an instant restoration

of health.

I don't advise anyone to do it unless they ask me what I would do if I

were in their place, and it may not be necessary for the majority of

the population. But when I failed to improve by any other means, and

the doctors had given up on me - this is what I did.

I'm not asking anyone else to take such extremes, or assert that 'My

way is the only way', just to understand that when I say " Extreme

Avoidance " , staying out of moldy buildings does not begin to describe

it.

-

[Guest guest]

and Group --

I know that everyone here would be interested in a very specific

description of your avoidance protocols. I believe that you have done

this within the context of many messages in the past, but a detailed

description of what actions you take when you perceive exposure would

be very valuable for those who are stuggling.

As an example, could you please explain what you do after you

inadvertently enter a building that you percieve, through a " Mold

Hit " , as being contaminated. For example, what do you do in this

situation if you have arrived in your vehicle? What steps to you take

to avoid cross-contamination of the vehicle?

Thanks -- this will help many I'm sure.

Lee

> > I can tell if mycotoxins are present within 5-10 seconds of

> entering a room. I can literally sense the sudden IQ drop that comes

> with brain fog and sudden fatigue.

> >

>

> When I refer to " Extreme Mycotoxin Avoidance " , my premise is that

> almost anyone can learn to detect a " mold slam " from highly

> contaminated areas - and I have taught many people to perceive mold at

> least this much, which is fairly easy to do.

> When my illness failed to improve by simply moving from such " sick

> buildings " and staying out of these overt exposures, I concentrated on

> subtleties that are not so apparent.

> Relying on the indicators of exposure that are described in this group

> were not sufficient to make a significant improvement for someone at

> my level of reactivity.

> Before Melinda Ballards " toxic Tara " story broke in USA TODAY,

> virtually all people that I came into contact with in the Reno-Tahoe

> area vehemently denied that mold had any serious effects whatsoever,

> and that includes dozens of doctors/allergists/immunologists in

> Sacramento as well - so " Mold Avoidance " was a completely novel

> concept. As I met more people who were determining for themselves

> that mold was something to be avoided, their responses conveyed the

> impression that all I was doing was turning around and walking out

> of " bad places " and that they were already practicing mold avoidance

> by cutting mold off the cheese and throwing away old bread.

> I'm sure that this level of avoidance is entirely appropriate for

> most people, but it is not what I am describing.

> As I said in Mold Warriors, when I realized that these exposures

> resembled the simulations for Nerve agent attacks in biological

> warfare training, I employed the same basic avoidance and

> decontamination protocols I was taught in the Army.

> This is what separates my definition of " Extreme Avoidance " from the

> concept of merely staying away from sick buildings.

> Despite my descriptions of employing a more concerted and specialized

> decontamination and avoidance strategy, the impression that most

> people generate is that I am practicing a " No Brainer " of walking away

> from places that knock me flat. At the very least I can tell you that

> when that was all I was doing, I wound up in Dr s ampligen

> program being told " You are at a point where most people with CFS

> commit suicide " . My impression of other people with CFS is that they

> are avoiding " bad places " by just walking away, and their results were

> equally unsatisfactory.

> I made an experiment of taking avoidance to the level consistent with

> military training for battlefield nerve agent contamination, and the

> difficulty in making people understand this is that the mental image

> they tend to visualize is the allergy model in which a Hepa filter and

> stepping away from the offending substance is an instant restoration

> of health.

> I don't advise anyone to do it unless they ask me what I would do if I

> were in their place, and it may not be necessary for the majority of

> the population. But when I failed to improve by any other means, and

> the doctors had given up on me - this is what I did.

> I'm not asking anyone else to take such extremes, or assert that 'My

> way is the only way', just to understand that when I say " Extreme

> Avoidance " , staying out of moldy buildings does not begin to describe

> it.

> -

[Guest guest]

For example, what do you do in this

> situation if you have arrived in your vehicle? What steps to you take

> to avoid cross-contamination of the vehicle?>

> Thanks -- this will help many I'm sure. >

> Lee

>

Thank you . I've wondered the same and I'm sure many on this group.

Being exposed in a building recently and having to drive back home I

wondered also about the cross-contamination of my vehicle.

, eagerly anticipating your suggested protocols,

Rosie

[Guest guest]

Hey , sorry if I offended you somehow. I just like sharing my

experiences to help others if I can. I know that I can now smell

things that are bad that I couldn't smell before really purifying the

air around me!! So that helps, but I never knew how much bad air

there is all over the place!!

buildings , " erikmoldwarrior " <erikmoldwarrior@e...>

wrote:

> " pizzahutoxic " < wrote:

> > I can tell if mycotoxins are present within 5-10 seconds of

> entering a room. I can literally sense the sudden IQ drop that

comes

> with brain fog and sudden fatigue.

> >

>

> When I refer to " Extreme Mycotoxin Avoidance " , my premise is that

> almost anyone can learn to detect a " mold slam " from highly

> contaminated areas - and I have taught many people to perceive mold

at

> least this much, which is fairly easy to do.

> When my illness failed to improve by simply moving from such " sick

> buildings " and staying out of these overt exposures, I concentrated

on

> subtleties that are not so apparent.

> Relying on the indicators of exposure that are described in this

group

> were not sufficient to make a significant improvement for someone

at

> my level of reactivity.

> Before Melinda Ballards " toxic Tara " story broke in USA TODAY,

> virtually all people that I came into contact with in the Reno-

Tahoe

> area vehemently denied that mold had any serious effects

whatsoever,

> and that includes dozens of doctors/allergists/immunologists in

> Sacramento as well - so " Mold Avoidance " was a completely novel

> concept. As I met more people who were determining for themselves

> that mold was something to be avoided, their responses conveyed the

> impression that all I was doing was turning around and walking out

> of " bad places " and that they were already practicing mold

avoidance

> by cutting mold off the cheese and throwing away old bread.

> I'm sure that this level of avoidance is entirely appropriate for

> most people, but it is not what I am describing.

> As I said in Mold Warriors, when I realized that these exposures

> resembled the simulations for Nerve agent attacks in biological

> warfare training, I employed the same basic avoidance and

> decontamination protocols I was taught in the Army.

> This is what separates my definition of " Extreme Avoidance " from

the

> concept of merely staying away from sick buildings.

> Despite my descriptions of employing a more concerted and

specialized

> decontamination and avoidance strategy, the impression that most

> people generate is that I am practicing a " No Brainer " of walking

away

> from places that knock me flat. At the very least I can tell you

that

> when that was all I was doing, I wound up in Dr s ampligen

> program being told " You are at a point where most people with CFS

> commit suicide " . My impression of other people with CFS is that

they

> are avoiding " bad places " by just walking away, and their results

were

> equally unsatisfactory.

> I made an experiment of taking avoidance to the level consistent

with

> military training for battlefield nerve agent contamination, and

the

> difficulty in making people understand this is that the mental

image

> they tend to visualize is the allergy model in which a Hepa filter

and

> stepping away from the offending substance is an instant

restoration

> of health.

> I don't advise anyone to do it unless they ask me what I would do

if I

> were in their place, and it may not be necessary for the majority

of

> the population. But when I failed to improve by any other means,

and

> the doctors had given up on me - this is what I did.

> I'm not asking anyone else to take such extremes, or assert

that 'My

> way is the only way', just to understand that when I say " Extreme

> Avoidance " , staying out of moldy buildings does not begin to

describe

> it.

> -

[Guest guest]

" pizzahutoxic " <pizzahutoxic@y...> wrote:

> Hey , sorry if I offended you somehow. I just like sharing my

> experiences to help others if I can. I know that I can now smell

> things that are bad that I couldn't smell before really purifying

the

> air around me!! So that helps, but I never knew how much bad air

> there is all over the place!!

>

Have you attempted to remediate objects that still give you a slam?

Do they have any detectable odor?

While I've certainly had major mold slams in moldy places, the cross

contamination and toxin exposed objects that can still be a driving

force in my response so far outnumber and outweigh the exposures which

have an accompanying odor that I decided using sense of smell is far

too unreliable to use as an indicator - especially since there are so

many musty places that have no effect on me.

For example, Spirit Cave NV where ancient mummified remains of NON

native American origins were discovered.

http://www.cabrillo.edu/~crsmith/spiritman.html

Very musty and full of mouse urine, but didn't bother me a bit.

If I had been all freaked because there was mold, I wouldn't have been

able to visit this fantastic archeological site.

I've seen people who identify mold as a driving force in symptoms get

absolutely wild over every mold or musty odor they encounter.

After having your life destroyed, I can understand the sentiment, but

others can not. Blaming every type of mold doesn't fit the facts and

is counterproductive - in addition to making you appear obsessively

crazy.

So I try to head this off by getting people to pay attention to CNS

responses and capillary hypoperfusion instead.

This whole thing is crazy enough, so I'd rather not be any more crazy

than is absolutely required.

-

[Guest guest]

No, it's not any of my stuff that messes me up. My exposure was

purely at work! I've always had a tremendous sense of smell and now

that my nose is clean, from always breathing purified air at home, it

seems to be even more sensitive to bad smells. Like the library at

school, I never noticed a smell there, but now I notice that it is a

little musty and the librarians are always congested. I guess now

that I think about it, the first thing I notice if I'm really paying

attention if I enter a bad place is my sinus airways will tighten up

a little, less oxygen, but the stupids come quick for me, usually

before I notice that. I'm sure your exposure was longer and more

severe, making you more hypersensitive than me, but mine was enough.

One day if I get the go ahead, I'll post some pics in the photos

section and maybe some video to, so you all can see what I was

exposed to. I've certainly seen worse pics of peoples houses, but

this was at a restaurant with an open makeline and moldy, extremely

smelly delivery bags. Not right!!

> > Hey , sorry if I offended you somehow. I just like sharing my

> > experiences to help others if I can. I know that I can now smell

> > things that are bad that I couldn't smell before really purifying

> the

> > air around me!! So that helps, but I never knew how much bad air

> > there is all over the place!!

> >

>

>

> Have you attempted to remediate objects that still give you a slam?

> Do they have any detectable odor?

>

> While I've certainly had major mold slams in moldy places, the

cross

> contamination and toxin exposed objects that can still be a driving

> force in my response so far outnumber and outweigh the exposures

which

> have an accompanying odor that I decided using sense of smell is

far

> too unreliable to use as an indicator - especially since there are

so

> many musty places that have no effect on me.

> For example, Spirit Cave NV where ancient mummified remains of NON

> native American origins were discovered.

> http://www.cabrillo.edu/~crsmith/spiritman.html

> Very musty and full of mouse urine, but didn't bother me a bit.

> If I had been all freaked because there was mold, I wouldn't have

been

> able to visit this fantastic archeological site.

>

> I've seen people who identify mold as a driving force in symptoms

get

> absolutely wild over every mold or musty odor they encounter.

> After having your life destroyed, I can understand the sentiment,

but

> others can not. Blaming every type of mold doesn't fit the facts

and

> is counterproductive - in addition to making you appear obsessively

> crazy.

> So I try to head this off by getting people to pay attention to CNS

> responses and capillary hypoperfusion instead.

> This whole thing is crazy enough, so I'd rather not be any more

crazy

> than is absolutely required.

> -

[Guest guest]

,

You make a good point as far as sense of smell and I can relate to

this in several ways.

1. Where my wife worked had absolutely no odor of mold,mildew or

dirt smell. I had been in the building many times and it wasn't all

that old, 5-6 years. The mold/spores were coming strickly from the

HVAC system directly above her head.

2.We've been at a family members house visiting and I walked in the

door first and using my sense of smell it just hit me in the face,

that musty, mildewy, dampness smell. I don't ususally panic but I

turned immediately to keep my wife from coming in, because I know

what this could have done to her and she could have been in bed for

a week to two weeks. But we had driven so far and some family

members were a bit skeptical, to say the least. So we decided that

she would go in slowly and just standing at the door. She felt

nothing, not even the simplest signs that she would normally be

aware of. Could not believe it. Six hours later, absolutely nothing

and even the days to follow. I guess it just goes to show, even

though we smell the mold and mildew coming from the basement,

obviously the toxins it was emitting were not the same ones that

nail her previously, that causes her system to go haywire.

3. Other buildings that we have gone into, if I'm with her, I always

take the first step in the door. Many times I see or smell nothing

and then she follows. Sometimes it could be an immediate effect and

we leave immediately or she will say there is nothing in here, I'm

ok and then all of a sudden, it could be 15 minutes, an hour or

later, come to find out there was something there and she had a

delayed reaction. This delayed response can be as long as the

following day and it will still keep her in bed for 2-3 days. We

have learned over time and it is a difficult thing to do, the

difference between a chemical hit and a mold hit. She reacts

differently betweent the two and of course it could be very mild to

very severe.

KC

> > Hey , sorry if I offended you somehow. I just like sharing

my

> > experiences to help others if I can. I know that I can now

smell

> > things that are bad that I couldn't smell before really

purifying

> the

> > air around me!! So that helps, but I never knew how much bad

air

> > there is all over the place!!

> >

>

>

> Have you attempted to remediate objects that still give you a slam?

> Do they have any detectable odor?

>

> While I've certainly had major mold slams in moldy places, the

cross

> contamination and toxin exposed objects that can still be a

driving

> force in my response so far outnumber and outweigh the exposures

which

> have an accompanying odor that I decided using sense of smell is

far

> too unreliable to use as an indicator - especially since there are

so

> many musty places that have no effect on me.

> For example, Spirit Cave NV where ancient mummified remains of NON

> native American origins were discovered.

> http://www.cabrillo.edu/~crsmith/spiritman.html

> Very musty and full of mouse urine, but didn't bother me a bit.

> If I had been all freaked because there was mold, I wouldn't have

been

> able to visit this fantastic archeological site.

>

> I've seen people who identify mold as a driving force in symptoms

get

> absolutely wild over every mold or musty odor they encounter.

> After having your life destroyed, I can understand the sentiment,

but

> others can not. Blaming every type of mold doesn't fit the facts

and

> is counterproductive - in addition to making you appear

obsessively

> crazy.

> So I try to head this off by getting people to pay attention to

CNS

> responses and capillary hypoperfusion instead.

> This whole thing is crazy enough, so I'd rather not be any more

crazy

> than is absolutely required.

> -

[Guest guest]

> I guess now that I think about it, the first thing I notice if

I'm really paying attention if I enter a bad place is my sinus

airways will tighten up a little, less oxygen, but the stupids come

quick for me, usually before I notice that. I'm sure your exposure

was longer and more severe, making you more hypersensitive than me,

but mine was enough.

>

That's the description I was looking for!

If you really pay attention to the " less oxygen " feeling and

inexplicable sudden onsets of " The Stupids " , you may find, in time,

that these episodes occur in the oddest and most unexpected places -

Completely inconsistent with " where one would expect to find mold " .

When I was in a preliminary stage, I tried to associate my symptoms

to where mold would be a reasonable thing to encounter - and the

LACK of positive correlation put me off the trail. It seemed like

mold just could not possibly be where I was feeling the " hits " I

thought were from mold, and then many times a place that was reeking

with mold FAILED to have any effect.

It's ironic that being at a lesser stage gave me less control over

my reactivities because I simply couldn't sense the primary irritant

well enough to identify the specificity and take proactive measures.

In a way, it was the best thing that could have happened to me to be

pushed into total devastating illness. Otherwise, I think that I

would have just remained as I was, getting kicked around and never

knowing what on Earth I could do about it.

When I was feeling infinitely better after putting my stuff in

storage and camping out, I was climbing up on Donner Pass and a

motorcycle race was blazing down Old Hwy 40 past the old

Transcontinental Railroad Showsheds where NitroGlycerin was

introduced in this country for the first time to blast through the

rocks. (They had to abandonon it. More people were being killed

than with Black Powder. But Hey, it was worth a shot - but I

digress...) I raised my green waterproof binoculars to my eyes,

which I had got out of storage, and BLAM.

No Oxygen! The Stupids. Heart palpitations. Desperation!

Just from some stinking binoculars which had been washed!

That was the moment when I completely abandoned trying to predict

where I was going to be slammed based on whether it was moldy or not

and paid total attention to the CNS and circulatory signs of a

response that could occur from a contaminated object.

The binoculars certainly never bothered me before they were

contaminated so the MCSers assertions that I must have soaked them

in chemicals didn't fit the facts. And I've had countless other

possessions which turned from good to bad after being in a mold

place. Virtually everyone around me was literally bending reality

to invent some convoluted grasping explanation for the way something

that " didn't used to bother me suddenly does " when the simplest

explanation of all - fit all the facts " : " It was exposed to mold " .

-

[Guest guest]

So, it seems like people are getting hypersensitive to a certain type

of mold, not all molds. It must be the certain mycotoxins they were

overexposed to that give them hits now. This makes since because

molds can have many mycotoxins and all are different chemical

combinations. I also know that there are mcs'ers who get mcs from

being over exposed to specific chemicals like boat resin while

building boats. In the 2 work samples we sent in, there were 5

different genus types identified, so that is an assortment of

mycotoxins for sure. Aspergillus/Cladossporium/Penicillium/Epicoccum

and Curvularia. I think the first 3 I mentioned are the most common

found indoors so maybe that is why usually when I smell something

musty it gives me a hit. This is all making more since now. Almost

all molds make mycotoxins. So if I were exposed to say a million

times more mycotoxins than normally occur on specific molds indoors

then that could have caused my hypersensitivity, which now leads to

hits from the same molds growing indoors with normal levels of

mycotoxins. My work was the perfect place for molds to grow. There

was a double decker oven constantly on at 450 +, a foot away from a

walkin refrigerator and it was also about 3 -4 feet from a walk-in

freezer. The ceiling leaked everytime it rained, the drains backed up

with sewage occasionally, the place was very dirty with vegetable oil

on everything and food particles sticking to that and that's just for

starters. Who knows how many more molds there were there. Only the

many more samples we took will tell, but this time we'll be going for

species id unless I can find someplace to do species and specific

mycotoxin id.

2obuildings , " erikmoldwarrior "

<erikmoldwarrior@e...> wrote:

> > I guess now that I think about it, the first thing I notice if

> I'm really paying attention if I enter a bad place is my sinus

> airways will tighten up a little, less oxygen, but the stupids come

> quick for me, usually before I notice that. I'm sure your exposure

> was longer and more severe, making you more hypersensitive than me,

> but mine was enough.

> >

>

>

> That's the description I was looking for!

> If you really pay attention to the " less oxygen " feeling and

> inexplicable sudden onsets of " The Stupids " , you may find, in time,

> that these episodes occur in the oddest and most unexpected places -

> Completely inconsistent with " where one would expect to find mold " .

>

> When I was in a preliminary stage, I tried to associate my symptoms

> to where mold would be a reasonable thing to encounter - and the

> LACK of positive correlation put me off the trail. It seemed like

> mold just could not possibly be where I was feeling the " hits " I

> thought were from mold, and then many times a place that was

reeking

> with mold FAILED to have any effect.

>

> It's ironic that being at a lesser stage gave me less control over

> my reactivities because I simply couldn't sense the primary

irritant

> well enough to identify the specificity and take proactive measures.

> In a way, it was the best thing that could have happened to me to

be

> pushed into total devastating illness. Otherwise, I think that I

> would have just remained as I was, getting kicked around and never

> knowing what on Earth I could do about it.

>

> When I was feeling infinitely better after putting my stuff in

> storage and camping out, I was climbing up on Donner Pass and a

> motorcycle race was blazing down Old Hwy 40 past the old

> Transcontinental Railroad Showsheds where NitroGlycerin was

> introduced in this country for the first time to blast through the

> rocks. (They had to abandonon it. More people were being killed

> than with Black Powder. But Hey, it was worth a shot - but I

> digress...) I raised my green waterproof binoculars to my eyes,

> which I had got out of storage, and BLAM.

> No Oxygen! The Stupids. Heart palpitations. Desperation!

> Just from some stinking binoculars which had been washed!

>

> That was the moment when I completely abandoned trying to predict

> where I was going to be slammed based on whether it was moldy or

not

> and paid total attention to the CNS and circulatory signs of a

> response that could occur from a contaminated object.

>

> The binoculars certainly never bothered me before they were

> contaminated so the MCSers assertions that I must have soaked them

> in chemicals didn't fit the facts. And I've had countless other

> possessions which turned from good to bad after being in a mold

> place. Virtually everyone around me was literally bending reality

> to invent some convoluted grasping explanation for the way

something

> that " didn't used to bother me suddenly does " when the simplest

> explanation of all - fit all the facts " : " It was exposed to mold " .

> -

[Guest guest]

> So, it seems like people are getting hypersensitive to a certain

type of mold, not all molds. It must be the certain mycotoxins they

were overexposed to that give them hits now. This makes since

because molds can have many mycotoxins and all are different

chemical combinations. I also know that there are mcs'ers who get

mcs from being over exposed to specific chemicals like boat resin

while building boats. <

Or the type of toxin produced by different species.

Fusarium and Stachy are both Trichothecene producers but it may be

that Stachy just does a better job of it.

A friend of mine who works with resins and was becoming

hypersensitive, but was also in a mold plume recently called me from

the new place he relocated to, (we checked it out and it feels good)

and says that he can feel " hits " from the equipment he brought out

with him but that the potency is gradually fading away.

His reactivity to the resins seems to be less intense as well.

As far as the cars, the only thing that has been effective for me

is to test the area before I leave the vehicle.

I've made the mistake of leaving a car in a mold plume and had to

pay for that mistake with lots of avoidable misery.

Much better to use ones perceptions to " perceptify " the area just as

one would do when entering a suspicious building.

" An ounce of prevention... "

-