Re: Re: Bleach Found to Neutralize Allergens (Toxins Remain!! Other Info)

[Guest guest]

This may be true of the " mold " , but the toxins remain.....and the bleach will

not kill the toxic strains. This research is looking at the allergic aspect,

which is only part of it. I have stated before, there are three parts:

1. Allergy (which this study is looking at)

2. Mycosis (or infection)

3. Toxicitiy (the toxic effects)

As Dr. Shoemaker says, the toxins live forever even after the spores are gone.

A study posted on here from the Mayo clinic stated that as the spores are

released, they attach toxins as a defense mechanism. They are totally different

pathways. Dr. Shoemaker describes the Biotoxin Pathway in his book. But

Allergies are IgE mediated (or involve the IgE antibodies and measured by the

ELISA test or any other IgE test ) and are histamine driven. The important note

is that you do NOT need to be allergic to have health effects. As an example, I

was not allergic, but did have the infection and toxicity.

The truth is coming out. I am lucky enough to have direct contact with

physicians and frequently discuss this topic. In the past week, about five

doctors and a couple PA's requested info on Dr. Shoemaker and asked if he would

be speaking anywhere. He has an article coming out in JAMA (the Journal of the

American Medical Association) entiteld " Mold Illness Across Age Groups: What You

Need to Know " . There are some really good physicians out there that are

wondering why all these cases of Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue are popping

up.

The tide is turning. GO MOLD WARRIORS!!!

kl_clayton <kl_clayton@...> wrote:

Since there seems to be no such thing as No conflict of interest, I have a hard

time

believing in tests, and results. I have to do it personally and see what happens

with me

before I consider it possibly true.

That said, I have found that I can bleach 100% cotton clothing with 1/2 cup in

the washer,

and when it is well rinsed I can tolerate it again, after drying well and airing

out in fresh

air.

This didn't work for a pair of jeans that had spandex in them. They are hanging

on the

clothesline, maybe for the winter, as someone had said that worked for them....

> I would like to see the research on this one.Conflict of interest

> would'nt you think.BIG BUCKS!!!!!!!

> This study was partially funded by a grant from The Clorox Company.

>

>

> http://press.arrivenet.com/health/article.php/696384.html

>

> Bleach Found to Neutralize Allergens

> First-ever Human Studies Show Bleach Solution Reduces Allergenic

> Properties of Mold

> Distribution Source : ArriveNet

>

> Date : Wednesday, September 21, 2005

>

>

> Denver, CO -- (ArriveNet - Sep 21, 2005) -- Researchers at National

> Jewish Medical and Research Center have demonstrated that dilute

> bleach not only kills common household mold, but may also neutralize

> the mold allergens that cause most mold-related health complaints.

> The study, published in the September issue of The Journal of

> Allergy and Clinical Immunology, is the first to test the effect on

> allergic individuals of mold spores treated with common household

> bleach.

>

> " It has long been known that bleach can kill mold. However, dead

> mold may remain allergenic, " said lead author Martyny, Ph.D.,

> associate professor of medicine at National Jewish. " We found that,

> under laboratory conditions, treating mold with bleach lowered

> allergic reactions to the mold in allergic patients. "

>

> The need for denaturing or neutralizing mold allergens is a critical

> step in mold treatment that has not been fully understood.

> Currently, most recommendations for mold remediation call for

> removal since dead mold retains its ability to trigger allergic

> reactions, according to Dr. Martyny.

>

>

>

>

>

> The researchers grew the common fungus Aspergillus fumigatus on

> building materials for two weeks, and then sprayed some with a

> dilute household bleach solution (1:16 bleach to water), some with

> Tilex® Mold & Mildew Remover, a cleaning product containing both

> bleach and detergent, and others only with distilled water as a

> control. They then compared the viability and the allergenicity of

> the treated and untreated mold.

>

> The researchers found that the use of the dilute bleach solution

> killed the A. fumigatus spores. When viewed using an electron

> microscope, the treated fungal spores appeared smaller, and lacked

> the surface structures present on healthy spores. In addition,

> surface allergens were no longer detected by ELISA antibody-binding

> assays, suggesting that the spores were no longer allergenic.

>

> The National Jewish researchers then allergy-tested eight

> Aspergillus-allergic individuals with solutions from the bleach and

> Tilex®-treated building materials. Seven of the eight allergic

> individuals did not react to the bleach-treated building materials,

> and six did not react to the Tilex®-treated building materials. This

> evidence suggests that, under laboratory conditions, fungal-

> contaminated building materials treated with dilute bleach or Tilex

> Mold & Mildew Remover® may have significantly reduced allergic

> health effects.

>

> " This study was conducted under controlled laboratory conditions. In

> order to assure that the bleach solutions will function similarly

> under actual field conditions, additional experiments will need to

> be conducted, " said Dr. Martyny. " We do believe, however, that there

> is good evidence that bleach does have the ability to significantly

> reduce the allergenic properties of common household mold under some

> conditions. "

>

> This study was partially funded by a grant from The Clorox Company.

>

> National Jewish is the only medical and research center in the

> United Stated devoted entirely to respiratory, allergic, and immune-

> system diseases, including asthma, allergies, and chronic

> obstructive pulmonary disease. It is a non-profit, non-sectarian

> institution dedicated to enhancing prevention, treatment, and cures

> through research, and to developing and providing innovative

> clinical programs for patients regardless of age, religion, race, or

> ability to pay.

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

Yes - this has been my gripe with a lot of the lore that has gotten passed

around concerning CFS for years. A preliminary study with few participants and a

bit of speculation phrased as conclusion in a research abstract turns into

" common knowledge " that lingers on the internet for years and years on end - to

the detriment of many people who don't or can't do their own research. Google

medline. Anything that has hit a medical library is pretty much there. You can

search on author and get everything that person has published to date. Sometimes

it's veddy-veddy-eenterestink to see who they have worked for or co-authored

with in the past.

Serena

www.freeboards.net/index.php?mforum=sickgovernmentb

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

,

I was exposed to Stachybotrys mold and have Granuloma lesions throughout my

body. They encapsulate the fungi growing in your body and it is very painful. I

even have it in my left aorta. My main pain in is the lung and stomach areas.(

It feels like your body is being squeezed tight from the inside.)

My brain does not work well either and it is very frustrating to try to figure

things out that you knew before. ( like opening your front door with a key) My

IQ was 140 but I am not sure where it is today.

Did your brothers Immune System crash also? My prayers are with him.

Sincerely,

Marcie

<wbrissette@...> wrote:

You've raised great points, .

I've only begun to learn about the devastating effects of the toxins

in which certain molds encapsulate their spores. My brother is

suffering from exposure to Stachybotris and is facing the most

difficult battle of his life. I'm trying to be supportive of his

efforts, but his brain is really not functioning optimally and I'm a

great distance away (CA vs IN). I've ordered a copy of Mold

Warriors to help me understand more fully the toxin's effects and

how to then best help my brother begin to move toward better

health. Right now, he is not making the wisest choices.

As far as the National Jewish Medical and Research

Center/Clorox study I see the following:

The doctor was quite accurate in his statements. He used

qualifiers in his statements regarding the results. Not once did

the doctor directly state: " Bleach Found to Neutralize Allergens " ,

that was the title chosen by either the reporter or the media

group for which he/she works. The doctor simply reported the

results as any scientist would have, using terms such as:

.... MAY...

.... MAY HAVE...

.... SUGGESTS...

.... UNDER LABORATORY CONDITIONS,TREATING MOLD WITH

BLEACH LOWERED ALLERGIC REACTIONS TO THE MOLD IN

ALLERGIC PATIENTS...

....UNDER ACTUAL FIELD CONDITIONS, ADDITIONAL

EXPERIMENTS WILL NEED TO BE CONDUCTED...

.... THERE IS GOOD EVIDENCE THAT BLEACH DOES HAVE THE

ABILITY TO SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCE THE ALLERGENIC

PROPERTIES OF COMMON HOUSEHOLD MOLD UNDER

SOME CONDITIONS...

By inserting the qualifiers in his statements, the doctor's

comments are true for this particular study, with this particular

mold, using these particular procedures, under these particular

conditions.

I see nothing wrong with what the doc says. I would, however,

like to see the study's entire report because, as the article is

written, it sounds as if viability was determined through only a

visual observation of the treated spores, not through plating

them up to see if NO mold actually grew from them. Surely that

can't be the case as that would not be good scientific method.

Another point that needs to be raised is the size... or rather lack

thereof, of the sample population. It was only 8 people... hardly

enough to prove anything conclusively! If one sets up the ratios

of those having a reaction to those tested, you'll find the following

percentages:

Clorox Bleach...

1:8 = 12.5% had a reaction to the allergens (87.5 did not).

Tilex Mold and Mildew Remover...

2:8 =1:4 = 25% had a reaction to the allergens (75% did not).

Although reaction to allergens was reduced (from a starting point

of 100%), IMHO there is a significant percentage of the

population still having a reaction to the allergens.

This led me to wonder... what would happen if we increased the

sample population? Well... let's look at a ratio with which we're

more familiar... tossing a coin. With the coin toss we have two

possible outcomes, we either get a head or a tail. With the

Clorox study, we also have two possible outcomes, a person

either has an allergic reaction to treated spores, or they don't.

Theoretically, we know that the larger the sample of coin tosses,

the closer we approach the 50/50 chance of getting a head or a

tail. Here's what happened when I tossed a quarter just 8 times:

[Just call me anal! ]

Heads:Total Tosses = 6:8 = 3:4 = 75%

Tails:Total Tosses = 2:8 = 1:4 = 25%

These are exactly the results gotten from the Tilex part of the

study. In any of the sets of 8 (and one of 4) which I tossed, I

could not replicate the 1:8 count seen with the bleach solution.

Nonetheless, these results make me question what would

happen with a larger test population. Would the results actually

show a more significant reduction in allergic reaction or not?

Until a larger sample population is studied, I'd say there are still

too many folks having an allergic reaction after bleach/Tilex

treatment to say the results of this puny, initial study were truly

significant.

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

I would just like to say, that it is great that you are trying to help and

support your brother. There are many of us here who wish we would have had

someone like you in our corner. That will be the one thing, when he is able

to make a decision that will help get him thru what is ahead-having you in

his corner to support him.

[] Re: Bleach Found to Neutralize Allergens (Toxins

Remain!! Other Info)

> You've raised great points, .

>

> I've only begun to learn about the devastating effects of the toxins

> in which certain molds encapsulate their spores. My brother is

> suffering from exposure to Stachybotris and is facing the most

> difficult battle of his life. I'm trying to be supportive of his

> efforts, but his brain is really not functioning optimally and I'm a

> great distance away (CA vs IN). I've ordered a copy of Mold

> Warriors to help me understand more fully the toxin's effects and

> how to then best help my brother begin to move toward better

> health. Right now, he is not making the wisest choices.

>

> As far as the National Jewish Medical and Research

> Center/Clorox study I see the following:

>

> The doctor was quite accurate in his statements. He used

> qualifiers in his statements regarding the results. Not once did

> the doctor directly state: " Bleach Found to Neutralize Allergens " ,

> that was the title chosen by either the reporter or the media

> group for which he/she works. The doctor simply reported the

> results as any scientist would have, using terms such as:

>

> ... MAY...

>

> ... MAY HAVE...

>

> ... SUGGESTS...

>

> ... UNDER LABORATORY CONDITIONS,TREATING MOLD WITH

> BLEACH LOWERED ALLERGIC REACTIONS TO THE MOLD IN

> ALLERGIC PATIENTS...

>

> ...UNDER ACTUAL FIELD CONDITIONS, ADDITIONAL

> EXPERIMENTS WILL NEED TO BE CONDUCTED...

>

> ... THERE IS GOOD EVIDENCE THAT BLEACH DOES HAVE THE

> ABILITY TO SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCE THE ALLERGENIC

> PROPERTIES OF COMMON HOUSEHOLD MOLD UNDER

> SOME CONDITIONS...

>

> By inserting the qualifiers in his statements, the doctor's

> comments are true for this particular study, with this particular

> mold, using these particular procedures, under these particular

> conditions.

>

> I see nothing wrong with what the doc says. I would, however,

> like to see the study's entire report because, as the article is

> written, it sounds as if viability was determined through only a

> visual observation of the treated spores, not through plating

> them up to see if NO mold actually grew from them. Surely that

> can't be the case as that would not be good scientific method.

>

> Another point that needs to be raised is the size... or rather lack

> thereof, of the sample population. It was only 8 people... hardly

> enough to prove anything conclusively! If one sets up the ratios

> of those having a reaction to those tested, you'll find the following

> percentages:

>

> Clorox Bleach...

> 1:8 = 12.5% had a reaction to the allergens (87.5 did not).

>

> Tilex Mold and Mildew Remover...

> 2:8 =1:4 = 25% had a reaction to the allergens (75% did not).

>

> Although reaction to allergens was reduced (from a starting point

> of 100%), IMHO there is a significant percentage of the

> population still having a reaction to the allergens.

>

> This led me to wonder... what would happen if we increased the

> sample population? Well... let's look at a ratio with which we're

> more familiar... tossing a coin. With the coin toss we have two

> possible outcomes, we either get a head or a tail. With the

> Clorox study, we also have two possible outcomes, a person

> either has an allergic reaction to treated spores, or they don't.

> Theoretically, we know that the larger the sample of coin tosses,

> the closer we approach the 50/50 chance of getting a head or a

> tail. Here's what happened when I tossed a quarter just 8 times:

> [Just call me anal! ]

>

> Heads:Total Tosses = 6:8 = 3:4 = 75%

> Tails:Total Tosses = 2:8 = 1:4 = 25%

>

> These are exactly the results gotten from the Tilex part of the

> study. In any of the sets of 8 (and one of 4) which I tossed, I

> could not replicate the 1:8 count seen with the bleach solution.

> Nonetheless, these results make me question what would

> happen with a larger test population. Would the results actually

> show a more significant reduction in allergic reaction or not?

> Until a larger sample population is studied, I'd say there are still

> too many folks having an allergic reaction after bleach/Tilex

> treatment to say the results of this puny, initial study were truly

> significant.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Our prayers are with the both of you also.

[] Re: Bleach Found to Neutralize Allergens (Toxins

Remain!! Other Info)

> Hi Marcie,

>

> I am so very sorry to hear of your situation. I can't even begin to

> grasp all of the adverse effects this toxin has on unsuspecting

> individuals such as yourself. It is quite overwhelming to hear of

> all the various symptoms this has caused for fellow board

> members. No wonder it is apparently so difficult for many

> people to understand, including those in the medical profession.

> The diversity is truly astounding!

>

> My brother has noticed the most discomfort in his feet and lower

> legs. We don't know of any other effects yet as he's not had any

> medical testing, per se, done yet. He has taken the online VCS (if

> I have these initials out of order, please forgive me.. I've always

> been horrible at acronyms!) and does show a loss of visual

> acuity. He is currently taking CSM, but not at the frequency that

> would be most beneficial in helping him bind and dump the

> toxin. At the present, my biggest concern is getting him away

> from the dwelling where he was exposed and of which he

> seems reluctant to let go, even though he just rents.

>

> He repeatedly states that he just wants things to be normal. I

> can't help but feel that normal for him will need to be newly

> defined in the context of all of this. The experience has been

> terribly difficult for him for a number of underlying causes, so I

> am doing my best to support him, encourage him to leave

> material things behind, and make his health his number one

> priority.

>

> I keep you all in my thoughts and prayers and trust that things

> are improving and will continue to improve for all of you.

>

> Thank you for your care and concern, Marcie.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Sorry it took so long to get back to you. Was in the hospital for a little

while. Chest pains! They did blood work and my potassium (sp?) level was very

low. They did x-rays and a cat scan and they wanted me to have a chemical

induced stress test. Not feeling very well....no chest pains though. Had to come

to the library to return a book due today.

Please tell your brother I wish him well.Everyone else on this board that is

ill, I sincerely hope that you are feeling better or getting the help you need.

Sincerely,

Marcie

<wbrissette@...> wrote:

Hi Marcie,

I am so very sorry to hear of your situation. I can't even begin to

grasp all of the adverse effects this toxin has on unsuspecting

individuals such as yourself. It is quite overwhelming to hear of

all the various symptoms this has caused for fellow board

members. No wonder it is apparently so difficult for many

people to understand, including those in the medical profession.

The diversity is truly astounding!

My brother has noticed the most discomfort in his feet and lower

legs. We don't know of any other effects yet as he's not had any

medical testing, per se, done yet. He has taken the online VCS (if

I have these initials out of order, please forgive me.. I've always

been horrible at acronyms!) and does show a loss of visual

acuity. He is currently taking CSM, but not at the frequency that

would be most beneficial in helping him bind and dump the

toxin. At the present, my biggest concern is getting him away

from the dwelling where he was exposed and of which he

seems reluctant to let go, even though he just rents.

He repeatedly states that he just wants things to be normal. I

can't help but feel that normal for him will need to be newly

defined in the context of all of this. The experience has been

terribly difficult for him for a number of underlying causes, so I

am doing my best to support him, encourage him to leave

material things behind, and make his health his number one

priority.

I keep you all in my thoughts and prayers and trust that things

are improving and will continue to improve for all of you.

Thank you for your care and concern, Marcie.

FAIR USE NOTICE: