Guest guest Posted July 2, 1999 Report Share Posted July 2, 1999 Treating MS with Antibiotics This article submitted by Dan Osborne on 7/22/96. Author's Email: dosborne@... Thanks again to Danger Alvarez for bringing this up (see " Curing MS w Antibiotics, a Hoax? 5/2/96). I asked Dr. Lindner some questions via e-mail. He replied to the questions, and also sent three papers: Experimental Treatment Protocols for New Bacterium; Nutrition and Lifestyle Suggestions; and Culture Shipping Information, for shipping blood samples. Following is a summary of the twenty pages he sent. Dr. Luther Lindner is a physician (pathologist) on the faculty of Texas A & M University, College of Medicine. He is studying a bacterium which seems to be associated with chronic fatigue and immune dysfunction syndrome (CFIDS), fibromyalgia, and several autoimmune disorders including multiple sclerosis, lupus erythematosis, and rheumatoid arthritis. Opinion differs on whether this bacterium is a true spirochete; whether it is or not, it is clearly not the spirochete which causes Lyme Disease. This bacterium has been found in essentially all persons tested, both those with the above maladies, and persons who are healthy. Persons with symptoms usually have higher levels than healthy persons, but not always. About 100 MS patients have been tested, and about the same number of CFIDS patients. In both groups, when a patient has an increase in bacterial level, it corresponds with worsening symptoms; a lowering of the bacterial level corresponds with improving symptoms, or a lack of symptoms. Dr. Lindner does not take patients directly for treatment. He tests blood samples for the bacterium, he tests the particular strain for response to various antibiotics, and he will advise your physician on recommended levels of particular antibiotics. Some strains of the bacterium are resistant to all currently available antibiotics. As treatment progresses, blood levels should be periodically checked. The testing of blood samples used to be free, but no more: it is now $40 US. The antibiotics run about $300 per month. About 20 to 25% of MS patients are greatly helped, and another 25% are helped some. More than half of the patients are helped very little or not at all. The CFIDS patients respond somewhat better. A few MS patients seem to have been made worse by antibiotic treatment. In medical terms, patients who stop having attacks are not " cured " , they are only " in remission " . The bacteria are still present in low levels. Nutrition and lifetyle changes are suggested in order to suppress the bacteria. In addition to antibiotics, and as an alternative, Dr. Lindner provides several pages of suggestions for a nutrition and lifestyle approach to treatment. Certain metals, particularly copper, stimulate bacterial growth and should be avoided; zinc suppresses growth of these bacteria, and intake is recommended. Vitamins, herbs, and stuff I had never heard of is discussed. There are no figures for the percentage of patients helped by these methods. I asked Dr. Lindner why so little attention has been given to this in the MS community. He gave several reasons: 1) The initial work is still in progress, and nothing has been published in any medical journal. 2) Medical dogma says that there are no bacteria in the bloodstream or the cerebrospinal fluid. This bacteria is found in those places. 3) Medical dogma also says that MS is caused by a virus or an autoimmune dysfunction. Dr. Lindner clearly states that this is an experimental treatment, and any patient should be fully aware of that fact. Many doctors will not spend time and money on an experimental treatment. Medical dogma says that there is no evidence that antibiotics can help MS. Patient success stories do not constitute evidence. Only controlled studies are evidence. For patient success stories, spirochete background, published articles on bacteria and MS, status of a controlled study on this treatment in Saskatchewan, and Dr. Lindner's e-mail address, see Grahame 's MS page at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/G/ Next Article Previous Article Return to Topic Menu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Here is a list of responses that have been posted to this article... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- You now have TWO OPTIONS: Post a new Article or post a Response to this Article Click here to post a new Article! If you would like to post a Response to this article, fill out this form completely... Do not use slashes ( " / " ) or colons ( " : " ) or other " special " characters in your Article title! Also, please be sure to make your Response Title something descriptive...NOT the same title as the original article.. 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Guest guest Posted July 2, 1999 Report Share Posted July 2, 1999 , There is a Dr. Roy Swank in Portland, Oregon who has fantastic results in treating MS. People come from all over the world to see him. I became aware of this in & Anne Frahm's book, " Reclaim Your Health. " I have two friends who have MS and I really picked up on this info. The book is not available at this time, for it is being rewritten/updated, but & Noble said it would be available again soon. Dr. Swank has a book, " The Multiple Sclerosis Diet Book. " Also, Robbins in his book, " Diet for a New America " gives good information re MS on pages 279-282. Other books referenced in the " Reclaim " book were: " Don't Drink Your Milk " by A.Oski, M.D.; " It's All in Your Head " by Hal A. Huggins. D.D.S.; Multiple Sclerosis, A Self-Help Guide to Its Management " by Judy Graham; " Special Diet Cookbook; Multiple Sclerosis " by Geraldine Fitzgerald and Fenella Briscoe; and " The Yeast Connection " by G. Crook, M.D. (See " Does Candida Cause Multiple Sclerosis, Psoriasis, Arthritis or Schizophrenia? " pages 218-228. , that ought to keep her busy and informed for a while. Good luck to you both. Billie . rheumatic MS >From: arjay <arjay@...> > >Does anyone have any info on alternative treatments for MS, one of my >sisters was just diagnosed with it (she also has bad emphysema) since >she isn't on the net I told her I'd research it. >Thanks, > >--------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2000 Report Share Posted May 30, 2000 Here is a web site with a lot of links to this issue, Carol Hope you are doing well :-) http://www.google.com/search?q=Antibiotics+multiple+sclerosis & num=10 & meta=hl%3 Den%26lr%3D & safe=off <A HREF= " http://www.google.com/search?q=Antibiotics+multiple+sclerosis & num=10 & met a=hl%3Den%26lr%3D & safe=off " >Google Search: Antibiotics multiple sclerosis</A> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2001 Report Share Posted May 12, 2001 Dear Debb, I am not sure if this is of any help, but I have lots of similar symptoms to M.S. but my M.R.I. scans show everything looks normal. The doctors say mine is definately not M.S. because of the scan results. Have you had an M.R.I? All my doctors can come up with is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromayalgia. Frustrating isn't it?!!!! Rosemary. allrosy@... rheumatic MS Hi, Hoping someone can help me, a Dr did extensive blood work on me and then did not explain much of it..I noticed in the copies he gave me that it is noted I have high myelin sheath deteriotion that occurs in MS..yet this DR was more concerned with the accompanying virus's, Epstein Barr, CMV and HH6..I did a little research and found that HH6 occurs in 1/3 of patients with MS..The Alternative MD who did the blood, when asked if I had MS, said he did not know...anyone with any info? thanks, DEBB To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2001 Report Share Posted May 13, 2001 Hi Debb, Rosemary, & everyone-- A while back a few people in the group emailed me saying that they were first diagnosed with CFS. And then as the disease progressed and symptoms got worse, the diagnosis changed to MS. They also said that they were found to have chlamydia pneumoniae and are now improving on antibiotics. Sorry I don't recall who passed this info to me. rheumatic MS Hi, Hoping someone can help me, a Dr did extensive blood work on me and then did not explain much of it..I noticed in the copies he gave me that it is noted I have high myelin sheath deteriotion that occurs in MS..yet this DR was more concerned with the accompanying virus's, Epstein Barr, CMV and HH6..I did a little research and found that HH6 occurs in 1/3 of patients with MS..The Alternative MD who did the blood, when asked if I had MS, said he did not know...anyone with any info? thanks, DEBB To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2001 Report Share Posted May 14, 2001 Be aware that you also will find high mylin sheath deteriotion that occurs with Lyme disease. you may want to search Goggle (deja.com) diseases, lyme disease. I suspect many people on this bulletin board are actually infected with Borellia bacteria which causes lyme (and then the immune system becomes challenged and we pick up all sorts of other bacteria, parasites, mycoplasms and viruses....also heavy metals that the body can no longer detox). But you find the white plaqueing in both lyme and ms. More and more people are finding they actually have Lyme and not ms (or lyme that is misdiagnosed) . the good thing is that lyme responds fairly well to antibiotics (but it is a very difficult bacteria) kathy rheumatic MSHi, Hoping someone can help me, a Dr did extensive blood work on me and then did not explain much of it..I noticed in the copies he gave me that it is noted I have high myelin sheath deteriotion that occurs in MS..yet this DR was more concerned with the accompanying virus's, Epstein Barr, CMV and HH6..I did a little research and found that HH6 occurs in 1/3 of patients with MS..The Alternative MD who did the blood, when asked if I had MS, said he did not know...anyone with any info? thanks, DEBB To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2001 Report Share Posted May 14, 2001 Dear Sherry, Yes, I did have the dye injected and everything looked extremely normal. I am not sure what I've got really, but I know I get worse with excercise and chemical exposure. Every time I have done any significant excercise, like a game of tennis, or using an excercise machine or going back to work, I've ended up more debiliatated than I was before. It usually takes about 2 months of doing more than I feel I can cope with and I end up in a relapse. The muscles in my back and legs have wasted and it's not like I do a lot now that my children have left home. Fortunately now I have a husband who helps with lots of things and does not expect too much of me. Wishing you health and peace, Rosemary. rheumatic MS Hi, Hoping someone can help me, a Dr did extensive blood work on me and then did not explain much of it..I noticed in the copies he gave me that it is noted I have high myelin sheath deteriotion that occurs in MS..yet this DR was more concerned with the accompanying virus's, Epstein Barr, CMV and HH6..I did a little research and found that HH6 occurs in 1/3 of patients with MS..The Alternative MD who did the blood, when asked if I had MS, said he did not know...anyone with any info? thanks, DEBB To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2002 Report Share Posted October 7, 2002 I also use the Zapper. Its inexpensive, painless, noninvasive and if H. is correct, it could be very helpful. kathy BTW , have you had trouble with your wrist band connections? Mine always give me trouble. rheumatic MS > > > > Hi, > > I was wondering if somebody could give me some info on AP and MS. > > A friend of the family just got diagnosed with MS, and I have read > > that AP has shown some good results with some MS patients. I would > > really like to try and help her out. Thanks in advance for any info. > > Take Care, > > Chelsie > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2002 Report Share Posted October 8, 2002 Hi Chelsie, Are you familiar with Dr. Hulda and her " zapper " ? Take a look at her website at www..net She believes that infection is at least part of the cause of MS, rheumatoid arthritis, and many other diseases. And her zapper is used to kill off the infection with low-voltage electricity (without the use of oral antibiotics.) Many people think she is crazy, but I use her zapper and have seen improvement in both my arthritis and juvenile diabetes. It's worth looking into. Let me know how it goes. rheumatic MS > Hi, > I was wondering if somebody could give me some info on AP and MS. > A friend of the family just got diagnosed with MS, and I have read > that AP has shown some good results with some MS patients. I would > really like to try and help her out. Thanks in advance for any info. > Take Care, > Chelsie > > > > To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2002 Report Share Posted October 8, 2002 Hi Chelsie, I do have many articles. I think I will post some here. ome conciliatory news (at least I think it is) from the MSQR- Multiple Sclerosis Quarterly Report--Spring 2002. Antibiotic May be A Potential Therapy for M.S. A common antibiotic, long used to treat infections in humans, may have potential as a treatment for M.S., according to a new study published in the medical literature in December 2001. The drug, minocycline, is a member of the tetracycline family of antibiotics and was tested in a condition that mimics M.S. Study results portray a potential treatment for M.S. that could significantly decrease the severity of disease attacks or even block the onset of relapses, hence ameliorating many of the disease's debilitating symptoms. Minocycline is already used to treat several different infections, but it is also effective in rheumatoid arthritis-an inflammatory condition. Due to this anti-inflammatory property, researchers at the Univ. of Wisc.-Madison gave minocycline to rats with a disease that closely resembles the inflammatory process of human M.S. Senior researcher Ian D. Duncan, Ph.D., reports that " animals treated with minocycline did not develop nerve problems, or had a less severe case, than did untreated rats.The results also showed that they could treat the animals successfully either before or after the disease began. " The hope is that minocycline may be able to significantly decrease the severity of attacks in M.S. or even block relapses completely. By doing so, it could relieve many of the symptoms, from paralysis to blindness, that plague people with this disease. Studies of minocycline in humans with M.S. will begin in 2002 at the Univ. of Calgary, Canada. " It is very important that a well-conducted clinical trial is carried out to test whether it is safe and effective in M.S., " says Duncan. He adds that minocycline would have advantages over drugs presently used because it is less expensive, can be taken by mouth, and could be used short-term to stop disease progression. (webMD) ************************************************************** MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS Gabe Mirkin, M.D. Here is an example of how difficult it is for doctors to accept new thinking on the causes and treatments of diseases. Multiple sclerosis is characterized by repeated episodes of nerve damage and recovery. For example, a person may lose vision and regain it, then lose coordination for one arm and leg, then regain some coordination, and so forth, each time losing more than is regained. Doctors do not have an effective treatment because they don't know the cause. The most likely cause is an infection because 85percent of patients do not have an affected relative and only one in three identical twins of MS patients develops MS. In the last year several researchers have presented evidence that chlamydia pneumoniae may be the cause (1,2). It has recently been detected in the cerebrospinal fluid of multiple sclerosis patients, but not in that of patients with other neurological diseases. There is also a report of a patient with spinal chlamydia infection and rapidly progressive multiple sclerosis that was cured by minocycline, a very safe antibiotic. Because nerve damage caused by multiple sclerosis can be permanent and minocycline is so safe, doctors should offer this treatment to multiple sclerosis patients, provided that they tell them that this treatment must be considered experimental, because chlamydia has not been proved to cause multiple sclerosis and minocycline has not been tested to see if it can cure that disease. Five years ago, researchers at the National Institute of Health reported that multiple sclerosis may be caused by human herpes simplex virus six. Four year ago, researchers at the University of Wisconsin reported the same results. Three years ago, researchers at the Rockefeller University in New York reported the same results. However, no studies have been done to treat multiple sclerosis with drugs that kill human herpes virus-6, Gancyclovir or fornascat, probably because many researchers are afraid of its toxic side effects. 1) Presence of Chlamydia pneumoniae DNA in the cerebral spinal fluid is a common phenomenon in a variety of neurological diseases and not restricted to multiple sclerosis. ls of Neurology, 2001, Vol 49, Iss 5, pp 585-589. J Gieffers, D Pohl, J Treib, R Dittmann, C Stephan, K Klotz, F Hanefeld, W Solbach, A Haass, M Maass. Address: Gieffers J, Med Univ Lubeck, Inst Med Microbiol & Hyg, Ratzeburger Allee 160, D-23538 Lubeck, GERMANY. 2) An infectious basis for multiple sclerosis - Perspectives on the role of Chlamydia pneumoniae and other agents. H Moses, S Sriram. Biodrugs, 2001, Vol 15, Iss 3, pp 199-206.Address: Sriram S, Vanderbilt Stallworth Rehabil Hosp, Multiple Sclerosis Res Lab & Clin, 2201 Capers Ave, Room 1222, Nashville,TN 37212 USA Health Topics from • The Dr. Gabe Mirkin Show and DrMirkin.com• Box 10, Kensington MD 20 ____________________________________________________ Posted November 9, 2001 · Issue 114 > > >Abstract > >When renowned pathologist Luther E. Lindner found " strange organisms " in >human blood and tissue, he was intrigued. Now Lindner along with a >Texas-based company called Pathobiotek say a newly discovered, blood- based >bacterium may be the long-sought trigger for multiple sclerosis, chronic >fatigue syndrome, and other forms of autoimmune disease. > >One of the most confounding diseases of modern times, ><http://www.ninds.nih.gov/health_and_medical/disorders/multiple_scler osis.h >tm>multiple sclerosis (MS) is caused by destruction of the fatty myelin >sheath that normally insulates neurons and enables signals to pass from >one nerve cell to the next. Symptoms, when nerve signals are subsequently >slowed or halted, range from mild numbness in the limbs to dramatic >cognitive decline, paralysis, and loss of sight. > >Most experts believe that the destructive process is autoimmune in nature, >spurred when the body's immune cells attack the cells of the central >nervous system. Scientists have, in recent years, identified the rogue >immune cells involved in the destruction, even pinpointing the receptor >sites that cause these cells to latch onto myelin, prompting the mayhem to >begin. But while researchers have mapped the process, they don't know what >sets it off. Prime suspects have been viruses, already implicated in >demyelination of nerves. Yet investigation of more than a dozen viruses, >including measles, canine distemper, and herpes (HHV-6) have failed to >show cause and effect. > >Now a Texas-based company called <http://www.pathobiotek.com/>Pathobiotek >Diagnostics says a newly discovered, blood-based bacterium may be a >trigger for MS, <http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/cfs/index.htm>chronic >fatigue syndrome (CFS), and other forms of autoimmune disease. It all >started a few years back when respected pathologist ><http://hscconcord.tamu.edu/pathology/Luther%20Lindner% 20Research.htm>Luthe >r E. Lindner joined colleagues and investors to pursue " the strange >organisms " he'd found in human blood and tissue over the years. As part of >that effort, a researcher working under Lindner used a novel culture >system to see if he could identify the spirochete ><http://www.pasteur.fr/recherche/borrelia/Welcome.html>Borrelia >burgdorferi in a patient thought to have ><http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/lyme/index.htm>Lyme disease, often so >similar to MS and CFS that the conditions may seem indistinguishable. " Lo >and behold, " says Lindner, " we saw a few bacteria wiggling around, but >they were not spirochetes and, so, clearly not B. burgdorferi or Lyme. " > >Lindner was, to put it mildly, intrigued. " The general dogma in medicine >up until very recently, " he explains, " is that the bloodstream in normal >people is sterile. It was not supposed to have bacteria floating around in >it, but there they were. " > >Pursuing the discovery, Lindner studied a group of 66 patients with CFS, >MS, and other forms of autoimmune disease, including ><http://www.duq.edu/PT/RA/RA.html>rheumatoid arthritis and ><http://www.lupus.org/>lupus. Focusing on MS patients alone, he made a >notable observation: Those with symptoms had the odd bacteria present in >high numbers, while those in remission generally did not. To determine >whether the bacteria and the symptoms were truly related, he began >treating symptomatic patients empirically with antibiotics, changing >medications when symptoms remained. If patients were treated long enough, >from two to six months and in some cases more, he says, " about 50 percent >improved. We observed that symptomatic treatment correlated with levels of >bacteria in the blood. " > >Despite his ability to improve the outcome for many patients, however, >there were roadblocks to overcome. For one thing, a percentage of patients >responded to antibiotic treatment by getting drastically sicker than >they'd been before. It turns out, says Lindner, that antibiotics in this >subgroup of patients stimulated bacterial growth, an effect he has traced >to a specific pump in the bacterial cell walls. Thus, even though >treatment was helpful for many patients, it was still a game of Russian >roulette. " The results are not predictable. Without tests to identify >antibiotic sensitivity levels in each patient, " he says, " we cannot not >recommend this treatment at all. " > >In addition, the culturing system Lindner used to guide his research was >crude. " It relied basically on microscopic observation and microscopic >counting, " he says. " You can't be a hundred percent sure of what you're >looking at under the microscope. " In order to be sure of his findings, he >had to look at the organism at the genetic level, sequencing its DNA. To >take Lindner's work to the next level, Pathobiotek has been focusing on a >technology platform aimed at characterizing and quantifying the newly >found organism through state-of-the-art molecular and microbiological >tools. One result has been identification of the organism's DNA by >polymerase chain reaction (PCR), proving it is truly unique. Reflecting >this finding, Pathobiotek has registered " Human Blood Bacterium, " or HBB, >as United States Patent 6,255,467, issued in July 2001. > >The company has also been hard at work on improving culturing techniques >using DNA analysis for confirmation of organism identity. " It has been a >long, slow process, " says Lindner, " but the new culturing system is >several orders of magnitude better than the original. " One result of >culture advancements has been the finding that the organism is present, in >low number, in all or nearly all people. " We can grow them from everyone, " >he states. The Lindner team has also learned that the organisms consist of >three or four closely related species of Methylobacteria, a class usually >found living in the environment. " So far we haven't found a particular >species or strain to correlate with whether or not the patient has >symptoms, " Lindner adds, " though we continue to look. And although we have >been looking fairly hard, we have yet to find any mechanism that would >explain why certain patients have symptoms while others do not. We are now >working on quantitative PCR to see whether we can confirm our original, >crude associations in a more precise way. " > >The company also hopes to help physicians and other researchers consider >this new organism when diagnosing, treating, or studying the spectrum of >autoimmune disease that includes CFS and MS. Toward that end, it intends >to market several kits enabling researchers to confirm the presence of the >microorganism from either serum or culture samples. New techniques >involving quantitative PCR, as well as monoclonal and polyclonal >antibodies currently under development will soon allow labs to assay the >varying levels of the microorganism in humans. > >The company is also trying to understand the mechanism of the cell- wall >pump that can respond to antibiotics by making some patients especially >ill. " We don't know what the pumps are moving in and out of the bacteria, " >says Lindner, " but we've found that some solvents influence their >behavior, flipping them back and forth. " What's more, he notes, " certain >patterns of diet may do the same. " The group has learned, for instance, >that niacin tends to turn up the pumps, stimulating growth of the >bacteria. Other nutrients may do the reverse. > >Finally, Pathobiotek is working hard to identify antibiotic sensitivity >levels in autoimmune patients, a prerequisite for delivering therapeutic >treatment at all. Already, the team has discovered that one antibiotic, >clarithromycin, is likely to stimulate bacterial growth in most patients. >The goal is providing a sensitivity test that would help customize >treatment for each and every patient while significantly lowering the >risk. One of the most important aspects of Lindner's work could be the >finding of bacterial persistence following antibiotic therapy. Many >experts contend that autoimmune disease, while perhaps triggered by >infection, continues its assault long after the microbes have been killed. >But Lindner's findings suggest that autoimmune illness may be driven by >persistent infection - when infection subsides, his research indicates, >autoimmune symptoms do, too. " I don't know of any way to get rid of this >organism, " Lindner says. " The best we can do is reduce its levels. We >don't know why. We have no proof at this point that they are intracellular >and, thus, hidden from antibiotics, but their persistence in the body >suggests that may be the case. " Another theory, he notes, is that human >blood bacteria cross the placenta. If the organisms are present prior to >birth, they may not be recognized as foreign by the immune system and, >thus, may be especially difficult to clear. > >When all is said and done, Lindner concedes, human blood bacteria may not >be the long-sought trigger for MS, CFS, and other forms of autoimmune >disease. " There is always the possibility that the changes in the >bacterial level are a secondary effect, " he states. " If so, it would still >be a significant marker of disease activity. On the other hand, if these >organisms are truly causative, sooner or later we will find a means to >control them. " > >Due to corporate restructuring, Pathobiotek will soon be changing its name >to Adesy, Inc., and will be moving corporate offices to a different Texas >location. >><http://news.bmn.com/hmsbeagle/current/about/contrib3#weintraub>Pame la >>Weintraub is a former staff writer at Discover, former editor-in- chief of >>Omni Internet, and the author of 15 books on health and science. > > > Wolsborn is Web designer of HMS Beagle > > >Endlinks > ><http://www.sky.net/~dporter/MSCFSABX.htm>Multiple Sclerosis and Chronic >Fatigue Syndrome: A Bacterial Etiology? - an article written by Luther E. >Lindner in response to requests for information about his research. > ><http://journals.bmn.com/search/site? search_action=resolve & uid=TIM.etd00836 >_0966842x_v0009i08_00002097 & rendertype=abstract>Viruses and Autoimmune >Disease: Two Sides of the Same Coin? - examines experimental models on the >role of viruses. From Trends in Microbiology, 2001, 9:8:377-381. Full text >available from BioMedNet. > ><http://journals.bmn.com/search/site? search_action=resolve & uid=JIMM.etd0051 >5_09527915_v0012i06_00000162 & rendertype=abstract>The Role of Different >Subsets of T Regulatory Cells in Controlling Autoimmunity - focus on the >role of T regulatory cells in prevention of autoimmunity and maintenance >of homeostasis. From Current Opinion in Immunology, 2000, 12:6:676- 683. >Full text available from BioMedNet. > ><http://journals.bmn.com/search/site? search_action=resolve & uid=JIMM.etd0051 >5_09527915_v0012i06_00000166 & rendertype=abstract>Antigen-Specific Therapy >for Autoimmune Disease - discusses the paradoxical use of self- antigens as >tools for autoimmune disease therapy. From Current Opinion in Immunology, >2000, 12:6:704-711. Full text available from BioMedNet. > ><http://journals.bmn.com/search/site? search_action=resolve & uid=JIMM.etd0051 >5_09527915_v0012i06_00000163 & rendertype=abstract>Animal Models of >Autoimmunity and Their Relevance to Human Diseases - reviews recent >advances. From Current Opinion in Immunology, 2000, 12:6:684-690. Full >text available from BioMedNet. > ><http://www.niaid.nih.gov/publications/autoimmune/autoimmune.htm>Unde rstand >ing Autoimmune Disease - an online booklet from the National Institute of >Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health. > ><http://www.immunologylink.com/>Immunology Links - includes worldwide >associations, journals, job opportunities, and technical information for >immunologists. > ><http://www.nationalmssociety.org/>National Multiple Sclerosis Society - a >gateway to information on MS. > >Related HMS Beagle articles: > * <http://news.bmn.com/hmsbeagle/108/notes/meeting>International > Congress of Immunology - a report from the conference held July 23- 27, > 2001 in Stockholm. > * <http://news.bmn.com/hmsbeagle/103/notes/meeting>American Society > for Microbiology - highlights from the conference include > <http://news.bmn.com/hmsbeagle/103/notes/meeting1>Evidence for Molecular > Mimicry in Multiple Sclerosis. > >© Elsevier Science Limited 2000 > __________________________________________ AUTOIMMUNE NEUROLOGICAL AND RHEUMATIC DISEASES: ROLE OF CHRONIC INFECTIONS IN MORBIDITY AND PROGRESSION Prof. Garth L. Nicolson and L. Nicolson The Institute for Molecular Medicine (Website www.immed.org) 15162 Triton Lane, Huntington Beach, CA 92649-1401 Autoimmune neurological and rheumatic diseases unfortunately do not have known causes, and in most cases, effective treatments. Although there has been tremendous progress in the last few years on these diseases, they still remain among the most difficult diseases to manage. The Institute for Molecular Medicine has been working with its affiliated institutions to develop new diagnostic and therapeutic approaches to treating autoimmune diseases. MICROORGANISMS CAUSE MORBIDITY IN MANY CHRONIC ILLNESS PATIENTS Although the causes of autoimmune neurological diseases are for the most part unknown, the complex signs and symptoms that evolve in most patients may be due, in part, to systemic chronic infections (bacteria, viruses, fungi) in patients with an appropriate genetic background. Such infections can follow acute or chronic chemical or other insults (heavy metal, viral, environmental, trauma, etc.) that have the potential to suppress the immune system [1]. Thus these illnesses probably evolve over time as a multistep process that may require multiple toxic exposures, including infections that can be causative for the illness in some patients, cofactors for the illness (not causative but important to morbidity) in others or opportunistic in immune-compromised patients. Chronic infections that are usually held in check by our immune systems can take hold if they can avoid immune surveillance and penetrate and hide in various tissues and organs, including cells of the Central Nervous System (CNS) and Peripheral Nervous System (PNS). When such infections occur, they can cause complex signs and symptoms, including immune dysfunction. Changes in environmental responses as well as increased titers to various endogenous viruses that are commonly found to be expressed in these patients as well as bacterial (Mycoplasma, Chlamydia, Borrelia, Brucella, etc.) infections have now been commonly seen in autoimmune neurological similar to other autoimmune disease patients, such as Rheumatoid Arthritis [2, 3]. It is proposed that autoimmune signs and symptoms are caused when intracellular pathogens, such as mycoplasmas and other bacteria, escape from cellular compartments. Microorganisms like mycoplasmas can incorporate into their own structures pieces of host cell membranes that contain important host membrane antigens that can trigger autoimmune responses, and they can also mimic host cell antigen structures [2, 3]. Thus patients with such infections may respond immunologically to microorganism antigens as well as their own membrane antigens, producing unusual autoimmune signs and symptoms. MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS (MS) Multiple Sclerosis (MS) is a disease associated with demyelation with relative preservation of nerve cells. Nerve cell loss does occur (~20%) in typical lesions in the spinal cord. MS is an inflammatory disease in which there is damage to the blood brain barrier, focal edema and swelling and release of plasma proteins into the CNS and inflammatory responses. The disease runs an intermittent or cyclic course, and the initial diagnosis is usually made after several attacks of disability associated with damage to the CNS. Although there is a poor correlation between a MS patient's disability and the pathology found in the brain after death, small lesions imaged in the brainstem and spinal cord are usually associated with clinical signs and symptoms [4]. In the case of MS, there is evidence for an association of the disease with chronic bacterial and viral infections. Challoner et al. [5] found MS plaque-associated expression of the herpes virus HHV-6B in >70% of MS cases. More recently Friedman et al. [6] used PCR and serology to follow HHV-6 infections in MS (plaques) and non-MS brain sections and found that ~40% of MS patients expressed HHV-6, whereas HHV-6 protein was expressed in only 13% of non-MS brain sections and 0% of normal controls. Also, antibodies to HHV-6 were found in 80% of MS patients but only 16% of non-MS patients. Evidence for a systemic infection have been noted by Kim et al. [7] and Akhyani et al. [8] who found HHV-6 in the peripheral leukocytes of MS patients but not in control subjects. Extending these observations Knox et al. [9] found that 73% of patients with MS had HHV-6 infections in tissues sections showing active demyelination, whereas only 13% of sections free of active disease were positive. Blood samples from these patients showed that 54% were positive for HHV-6 in peripheral leukocytes compared to 0/61 controls. In addition to HHV-6, bacterial infections have been found in MS patients. There are strong analogies between neuroborreliosis (Borrelia bergdorferi) found in Lyme Disease patients and MS. Chmielewska-Badora et al. [10] found that 38.5% of MS patients showed evidence of Borrelia antigens in their blood, whereas other neurological patients carried these antigens in blood at a lower prevalence (19%). Chlamydia pneumoniae has also been found in a subgroup of MS patients [11]. By examining cerebral spinal fluid (CSF) these authors found that 10% of MS patients and 18% of patients with probable MS had Chlamydia infections but none of 56 control patients with other neurological disease were positive [11]. Other authors, however, could not confirm this finding [12]. We have found a high incidence of mycoplasmal infections in MS patients, mostly as coinfections with other bacteria and viruses. Greenlee and Rose [4] have discussed the possible association of various bacterial infections caused by Rickettsia, Mycoplasma, Borrelia, Chlamydia and possibly other bacteria and viral infections caused by HHV-6 in various neurological diseases, including MS. Recently we established a new treatment protocol for MS based on the detection of chronic bacterial and viral infections in MS patients. Hyperbaric oxygen therapy (HBOT) has been shown to be of benefit in many disorders, and it has been documented to be beneficial in MS [13]. Thus there is an existing rationale for using HBOT to treat MS patients, especially those MS patients with evidence of chronic infections. The chronic infections that have been found in some MS patients are borderline anaerobic infections and should respond to varying degrees to HBOT. The current treatment for chronic infections, such as those caused by bacterial infections, is long- term antibiotics plus nutritional support. The antimicrobial effects of antibiotics are often thought to be potentiated by the use of HBOT. In one part of the study we will evaluate the effects of using HBOT to treat MS with evidence of a chronic infection using signs and symptoms, sequential imaging, and determination of infections and immune parameters to monitor effect of therapy. It is anticipated that 50 subjects will be enrolled in this study. I have 2 more as well but they are longer Love Marge > Hi, > I was wondering if somebody could give me some info on AP and MS. > A friend of the family just got diagnosed with MS, and I have read > that AP has shown some good results with some MS patients. I would > really like to try and help her out. Thanks in advance for any info. > Take Care, > Chelsie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2002 Report Share Posted October 8, 2002 Hi Chelsie KB from the RBF...I read a very interesting article back on the RBF BB. I believe a person named posted it around the 19th of september???? It's about mercury amalgans and the disease process. Search for Mercury. This article is a real eye opener! I gave it to a friend of mine who was resently rx'd with ALS. I've also given a copy to my allergist, she was floored, and called her friend who has severe kidney problems. It seems that mercury exposer (silver fillings) causes all kinds of problems/diseases. Chelsie, read this article, read it a couple of times, 'cause different things will bounce out at you. For you, you may be intrested to read that you shouldn't have dental work done while your pregnant...the mercury vapors can cause problems for the fetus. Let me know if you have problems finding the article, I'll help you. KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2002 Report Share Posted November 27, 2002 Hi Jan...your rice stuffing sounds great. My mom used to stuff chickens with a special wild rice & herb recipe when we were little...still makes my mouth water. I'm giving the lady the benefit of her sincerity...I'm sure she was reading from a script, but she was very sweet. It just put me off...but I won't stop helpng where I can. I hope you & yours have a WONDERFUL holiday. Much Love... Tess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 I am sorry you missed the show. He had several people on it who had MS, a young mother who was diagnosed at age 16. She is now in her 20's, married to a surgeon, who wrote the book, The Gold Coast Cure. It is coming out in June. He has done a lot of research on diet, - didn't get his name, though. Also, a country western singer, who will be going on tour with Montel to raise money for research for MS. Go to Montel's website for more information. A doctor also talked about children as young as three being diagnosed. Montel uses alternative and complimentary medicine - Chinese Herbs - says that is what is keeping him going. Joan, PACol. Potter's Cairn Rescue May you have a song in your heart, a smile on your lips and nothing but joy in your fingers. Re: MS I missed it. I was picking the kids up from school and we had an appointment after that. What did he have to say? I tried to send him an email many years ago about the German treatment, but I don't know if he ever received it. I never had a reply from him......Joan Cowdrick <scrappygal@...> wrote: Wednesday, June 1, 2005 Montel in talking about MS today at 2:00 P.M. Joan, PACol. Potter's Cairn Rescue May you have a song in your heart, a smile on your lips and nothing but joy in your fingers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 <janel@p...> wrote: > Re: bacterial loads, I suspect the MS patients can attribute the majority of their symptoms to the immune response attacking the myelin sheath (not necessary for them to have a high bacterial load to have devastating symptoms) whereas the symptoms of many people with TBDs might not be due to their immune syst going beserk and " auto-immuning " , but just to " appropriate inflammation (?) " when confronted to a very high bacterial load. Just thinking outloud, pure speculation. The demyelination may not require any autoimmunity at all, and no autoimmune epitope has ever been identified. The myelin sheaths come from extensions of oligodendrocytes. When oligodendrocytes die they, like most any cell, expose phosphatidyl(sp?) serine on their membranes, and fix complement. The myelin sheaths are left, and are then phagocytosed. Barnett and Prineas recently observed that all the oligodendrocytes in the lesions all die rapidly, prior to the arrival of any leucocytes, in many lesions (apparantly not all). Great, but the big question is why do they die. Well, I would wildly speculate that other glial cells (the non- neurons of the brain) are charged with killing them under some conditions, perhaps as a " scorched earth " strategy for containing pathogens that like oligodendrocytes. Like when ancient towns under attack burned their fields before withdrawing into the citidel. I have a couple papers showing that certain toxic situations kill oligos when cultured with other glia, but not oligos in pure culture. Im totally just blabbering here. Now, thats demyelination. Theres also a great capacity for re- myelination, which is why MS can remit, and the breakdown of this capacity is seen in progressive MS. That could be like a whole nother phenomenon. Autoimmunity? Certainly a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 , I used "autoimmunity" with quotes as that's the "explanation" that is commonly given for MS, but I have no idea whether there even is such a thing as autoimmunity. Your explanation suits me fine (but again, who knows?!) I was only commenting on the bacterial load aspect, saying that even severe and spectacular symptoms might not always mean a higher bacterial loads (MS or no MS) yet die-off when using abx might very well depend on how high the bacterial load is (pbbly among other things of course) Nelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Oh yeah, I wasnt objecting to what you were saying, I just like studying MS, probably cause I dont have it. I love to blather about MS at the slightest provocation, beware mentioning it! I wish I could get into some heavy papers I have on the subject but I'm too busy. Did you read the whole thread that was linked here the other day, the one Wheldons on? I didnt read it all, but one person described a pretty severe rx to a cycline that could well have been herx. Interestingly, Mattman has some data on the MS spirochete having different cyst morphology than the CFS/lyme Bb. > , > > I used " autoimmunity " with quotes as that's the " explanation " that is commonly given for MS, but I have no idea whether there even is such a thing as autoimmunity. > > Your explanation suits me fine (but again, who knows?!) > > I was only commenting on the bacterial load aspect, saying that even severe and spectacular symptoms might not always mean a higher bacterial loads (MS or no MS) yet die-off when using abx might very well depend on how high the bacterial load is (pbbly among other things of course) > > Nelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 > I was even more interested in their reference (see abstract below) > purporting to show AI in MS in the form of directly-observed > anti-myelin Ab bound to disintegrating myelin membrane. THis abstract is relevant to whether or not these myelin-binding Ab are pathogenic or not. I have the paper, a very long one with 250 refs. It is also very well known that apoptotic cells expose phosphatidylserine, which is usually only found on the inner leaflet of the plasma membrane, and that this can be bound by macrophages as I recall. ======================================================== Cell Mol Biol (Noisy-le-grand). 2003 Mar;49(2):217-43. Immunoregulation of cellular lifespan: physiologic autoantibodies and their peptide antigens. Kay MM, Goodman J. Department of Neurology, University of Geneva Hospital, Micheli du Crest 24, CH 1211, Geneva, Switzerland. margueritekay@... Physiologic autoantibodies are part of our normal immune repertoire where they function to maintain homeostasis by performing physiologic functions. The role of physiologic autoantibodies in removing senescent and damaged cells is probably the best example of a physiologic autoantibody, complete with well established function. IgG autoantibodies bind to altered band 3 anion exchanger protein on senescent cells and trigger their removal by macrophages. Band 3 isoforms are found in all cells, tissues, and membranes, and in all species examined. In this paper, we discuss the innate immune response to band 3 membrane proteins and their regulation of cellular lifespan. The role of physiologic autoantibodies and their peptide antigens in health and disease, apoptosis, and their therapeutic potential is discussed focusing on the examples of senescence and malaria. Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial PMID: 12887104 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Personally, if I had MS the first thing I would try - based on excellent anecdotal treatment success, and assuming I read in depth about any/all risks and accepted them - would be a multi-antibacterial regime probably including a nitroimidazole (metronidazole or tinidazole). I'm told some such regimes are compatable with some of the more canonical MS treatments. Many MS patients using multiple abx therapy, and mulling over the evidence for bacterial infection in MS, may be found at thisisms.com antibiotics forum cpnhelp.org lymenet.org Most of these communities focus on borrelia or Chlamydia pneumoniae, which are certainly present in the brain in some MS cases... tho in my opinion you cant really exclude that some other bacterium (or other microbe or something else completely) could be a more fundamental pathogen in the disease at least in some cases. Hopefully one day we'll find out. For now, we already know enough to fight the disease about as best we can, IMO. > > I've a friend with MS who hasn't done any alternative stuff. > Any recommendations? She's 47 and diagnosed a few years ago and it's > progressing so that in the last 6 months her hands are very shakey and she > appears more stiff, etc. > > I think it was Rich who in the last week posted with a link to an article > that was for many things--cfs, ms, etc. I think it was about the connection > of cfs to autism. when i went to the link, it also discussed ms. Please > resend if this sounds familiar and you can find it. > > thank you. > > Ann > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Betty MS is a label not a description of what her problem is. If she hasn't done os I would advise her to get herself to a lyme doctor and rule out lyme and the various co-infections. Also look into metal issues particularly if she has amalgams. I have been disabled with lyme,babesia and bartonella for 11 years. By treating them and detoxing metals my neurological functioning has improved. There are some in the lyme " community " that actually have MS. She may have it or may not. There are more options available to treat it than MS has.Please contact me privately if you desire more info. Phil MS My oldest daughter has been diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis. She had an appointment with her OB today, and he sent her straight over to another doctor. Because she is pregnant, they can't do an MRI and spinal tap until 6 weeks after the baby is born. But he told her that he is pretty sure that is what she has...she has every symptom. Anyone here that has it? She is 27 years old, and due with her second baby in March. Any advice? Betty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 There are strong links between MS (and other auto-immune diseases) and diary consumption, and yes raw milk is equally culprit, or more culprit in some studies. There are also known links to high meat consumption. I personally (through reading research) believe that it’s linkd to milk-protein (casein) reactions (like allergic reactions, which are not always apparent to people), at least in part, as this reaction is the kind that’s linked to other auto-immune diseases, including diabetes, and chronic inflammatory-related heart-disease. I’m not sure how the high-meat consumption would fit in though, but imagnine it’d be similar to whatever pathways cause the much higher cancer incidence in high-meat (and dairy) consumers. Gluten intolerance may be anotoher link to MS. One abstract below follows tries to find a saturated fatty-acid link. If she’s overweight, weight-loss with vegatable-focussed diet might help, as obesity is another link (although not obese vegans). There’s not much link to cheese consumption. Cheese is pre-digested by fungi and thus it’s not only less allergenic, but other factors in it are altered as well. PLEASE TELL ME IF THE BELOW ABSTRACTS DO NOT SHOW-UP. linda HYPERLINK " javascript:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'Neuroepidemiology.'); " Neuroepidemiolog y. 1992;11(4-6):304-12. HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Display & dopt=pu bmed_pubmed & from_uid=1291895 " Related Articles, HYPERLINK " javascript:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu1291895); " Links HYPERLINK " http://ucelinks.cdlib.org:8888/sfx_local?sid=Entrez:PubMed & id=pmid:1291895 " Click here to read Correlation between milk and dairy product consumption and multiple sclerosis prevalence: a worldwide study. HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Malosse+D%22%5BAuthor%5D " Malosse D, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Perron+H%22%5BAuthor%5D " Perron H, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Sasco+A%22%5BAuthor%5D " Sasco A, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Seigneurin+JM%22%5BAuthor%5D " Seigneurin JM. Laboratoire de Virologie, Faculte de Medecine, CHRU, Grenoble, France. Multiple sclerosis (MS) epidemiology suggests that different factors are involved in the clinical expression of the disease. Alimentary cofactors have already been considered, but mainly theoretically. We have studied the relationship between MS prevalence and dairy product consumption in 27 countries and 29 populations all over the world, with Spearman's correlation test. A good correlation between liquid cow milk and MS prevalence (rho = 0.836) was found; this correlation was highly significant (p < 0.001). A low but still significant correlation was obtained with cream or butter consumption (rho = 0.619 and rho = 0.504, respectively). No correlation was found for cheese. These results suggest that liquid cow milk could contain factor(s) - no longer present in the processed milk - influencing the clinical appearance of MS. The possible role of some dairy by-products is discussed in the light of a multifactorial etiology of MS. HYPERLINK " javascript:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'Neuroepidemiology.'); " Neuroepidemiolog y. 1993;12(1):15-27. HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Display & dopt=pu bmed_pubmed & from_uid=8327019 " Related Articles, HYPERLINK " javascript:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu8327019); " Links HYPERLINK " http://ucelinks.cdlib.org:8888/sfx_local?sid=Entrez:PubMed & id=pmid:8327019 " Click here to read Correlation analysis between bovine populations, other farm animals, house pets, and multiple sclerosis prevalence. HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Malosse+D%22%5BAuthor%5D " Malosse D, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Perron+H%22%5BAuthor%5D " Perron H. Army Medical Research Center, La Tronche, France. In a previous study we analyzed the possible relationship between dairy product consumption and multiple sclerosis (MS) worldwide. We showed that a good correlation (Spearman rank p = 0.836), statistically strongly significant (p < 0.0001), existed between liquid cow milk consumption and MS prevalence. The interpretation of this strong correlation between MS and milk consumption is still unclear: fresh milk could be considered as a cofactor, but it could also reflect a much stronger association with MS of another unstudied factor, well correlated with milk consumption (yet, this is not the case for latitude). Obviously, the bovine population in each country and, particularly milk cows, has to be considered. In the present study, we analyze the correlations existing between the figures of national cow milk production and MS prevalence in 20 countries. We also analyze the correlations with the whole bovine, ovine, caprine, porcine, horse, poultry, cat and dog populations. Here again we find significant correlations between (i) cow milk production per inhabitant, (ii) national bovine density per inhabitant, and (iii) local bovine geographic density, and MS prevalence. However, these correlations are relatively weaker than that found with fresh liquid milk consumption in our previous study. No correlation is found with other farm animals or with pets in the same countries. The epidemiological significance of these results, suggesting a preponderant role of fresh cow milk, is discussed. JUST TO SHOW THAT THE LINK’S BEEN KNOW FOR A LONG TIME: HYPERLINK " javascript:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'N%20Z%20Med%20J.'); " N Z Med J. 1976 Jun 23;83(566):427-30. HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Display & dopt=pu bmed_pubmed & from_uid=1067488 " Related Articles, HYPERLINK " javascript:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu1067488); " Links HYPERLINK " http://ucelinks.cdlib.org:8888/sfx_local?sid=Entrez:PubMed & id=pmid:1067488 " Click here to read The distribution of multiple sclerosis in relation to the dairy industry and milk consumption. HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Butcher+J%22%5BAuthor%5D " Butcher J. This report emphasises the striking correlation between the world distribution of dairy production and consumption and the incidence of multiple sclerosis. The irregular distribution of multiple sclerosis has been extensively investigated and many comparative studies of specific variables undertaken. It seems likely that there could be a combination of predisposing or precipitating factors involved in its aetiology, and that some environmental phenomenon plays a part. This report suggests that milk consumption may be a common aetiological factor. HYPERLINK " javascript:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'J%20Clin%20Epidemiol.'); " J Clin Epidemiol. 1994 Jan;47(1):43-8. HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Display & dopt=pu bmed_pubmed & from_uid=8283194 " Related Articles, HYPERLINK " javascript:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu8283194); " Links HYPERLINK " http://ucelinks.cdlib.org:8888/sfx_local?sid=Entrez:PubMed & id=pmid:8283194 " Click here to read The risk of multiple sclerosis in the U.S.A. in relation to sociogeographic features: a factor-analytic study. HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Lauer+K%22%5BAuthor%5D " Lauer K. Department of Neurology, Academic Teaching Hospital, Darmstadt, Germany. The multiple sclerosis (MS) case-control ratio by state originating from the U.S. veteran series from World War II (Kurtzke Neurology 1979; 29: 1228-1235) was geographically compared with 46 sociogeographic variables from the period 1935-1958. Latitude was, by far, the variable most closely associated with MS in univariate testing. Multivariate analysis by factor analysis revealed that the MS rate was associated with 2 independent settings ( " factors " ). The first one was defined mainly socioeconomically and was characterized by indicators of higher affluence; better nutrition with a higher meat consumption in particular, and a higher sanitary level were the prominent features. The second MS-related bundle comprised characteristics of a colder climate along with further dietary variables (i.e. a diet low in fish and high in dairy products). The findings suggest a possible interaction of both socioeconomic and geoclimatic features in the etiology of MS; sanitation, diet and climate being of particular interest. HYPERLINK " javascript:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'Minerva%20Gastroenterol%20Dietol.'); " M inerva Gastroenterol Dietol. 2004 Dec;50(4):317-23. HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Display & dopt=pu bmed_pubmed & from_uid=15788987 " Related Articles, HYPERLINK " javascript:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu15788987); " Links HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/utils/lofref.fcgi?PrId=3310 & uid=15788987 & db=pubmed & url=http://www.minervamedica.it/index2.t?show=R08Y2004N04A0317 " \nClick here to read HYPERLINK " http://ucelinks.cdlib.org:8888/sfx_local?sid=Entrez:PubMed & id=pmid:15788987 " Click here to read [The efficacy of dietetic intervention in multiple sclerosis] [Article in Italian] HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Agnello+E%22%5BAuthor%5D " Agnello E, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Palmo+A%22%5BAuthor%5D " Palmo A. S. C. Dietetica e Nutrizione Clinica, S. O. San Giovanni Battista, Torino. elenagnello@... The involvement of nutritional factors in the etiopathogenesis of multiple sclerosis is currently being investigated. Notwithstanding the huge amount of data present in the literature, the possible etiological or protective role of nutrients with regard to the disease remain debatable. The epidemiological data suggest an association between multiple sclerosis and nutrition; the populations that take in a higher quantity of foods of animal origin (meat p<0.0001 and dairy products p<0.01) seem to be the most affected. A role of saturated fatty acids in the etiopathogenesis of myelinic damage has been hypothesised. Case control studies have identified certain foods that act as risk factors and others as protection in the onset of the disease. Some case control studies point to a time-cause relationship between the intake of total calories (O.R. 2.03) and saturated fats (O.R. 1.88) and the incidence of multiple sclerosis; other prospective studies failed to confirm this hypothesis, negating the protective effect of a diet rich in anti-oxidant vitamins and polyunsaturated fatty acids. Intervention studies are discordant with respect to the effects of polyunsaturated fatty acid supplements on the course of the disease. In patients with a progressive chronic form of the disease, polyunsaturated fatty acids did not demonstrate any effect on the progression of the invalidating lesions. Interventions on patients suffering from an acute and remittent form have pointed to the significant effect of treatment with polyunsaturated fatty acids in slowing down the progression of lesions only in cases with a slight initial degree of disability or no disability (p=0.001) at all. They do, however, seem to confirm the hypothesis of an association between the gravity of the disease and consumption of saturated fats (p<0.05) and show an improvement trend in patients treated with polyunsaturated fatty acids, although the data are not statistically significant. HERE THEY’RE GETTING CLOSER TO THE MILK PROTEIN-INTOLERANCE REACTION LINK: HYPERLINK " javascript:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'J%20Immunol.'); " J Immunol. 2001 Apr 1;166(7):4751-6. HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Display & dopt=pu bmed_pubmed & from_uid=11254737 " Related Articles, HYPERLINK " javascript:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu11254737); " Links HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/utils/lofref.fcgi?PrId=3051 & uid=11254737 & db=pubmed & url=http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long & pmid=1125473 7 " \nClick here to read HYPERLINK " http://ucelinks.cdlib.org:8888/sfx_local?sid=Entrez:PubMed & id=pmid:11254737 " Click here to read T cells of multiple sclerosis patients target a common environmental peptide that causes encephalitis in mice. HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Winer+S%22%5BAuthor%5D " Winer S, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Astsaturov+I%22%5BAuthor%5D " Astsaturov I, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Cheung+RK%22%5BAuthor%5D " Cheung RK, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Schrade+K%22%5BAuthor%5D " Schrade K, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Gunaratnam+L%22%5BAuthor%5D " Gunaratnam L, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Wood+DD%22%5BAuthor%5D " Wood DD, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Moscarello+MA%22%5BAuthor%5D " Moscarello MA, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22O%27Connor+P%22%5BAuthor%5D " O'Connor P, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22McKerlie+C%22%5BAuthor%5D " McKerlie C, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Becker+DJ%22%5BAuthor%5D " Becker DJ, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Dosch+HM%22%5BAuthor%5D " Dosch HM. The Hospital For Sick Children, Research Institute, Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Multiple sclerosis (MS) is a chronic autoimmune disease triggered by unknown environmental factors in genetically susceptible hosts. MS risk was linked to high rates of cow milk protein (CMP) consumption, reminiscent of a similar association in autoimmune diabetes. A recent rodent study showed that immune responses to the CMP, butyrophilin, can lead to encephalitis through antigenic mimicry with myelin oligodendrocyte glycoprotein. In this study, we show abnormal T cell immunity to several other CMPs in MS patients comparable to that in diabetics. Limited epitope mapping with the milk protein BSA identified one specific epitope, BSA(193), which was targeted by most MS but not diabetes patients. BSA(193) was encephalitogenic in SJL/J mice subjected to a standard protocol for the induction of experimental autoimmune encephalitis. These data extend the possible, immunological basis for the association of MS risk, CMP, and CNS autoimmunity. To pinpoint the same peptide, BSA(193), in encephalitis-prone humans and rodents may imply a common endogenous ligand, targeted through antigenic mimicry. THE FULL-TEXT OF THIS PAPER LOOKS AT MS AS WELL... casein in milk protein: HYPERLINK " javascript:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'N%20Z%20Med%20J.'); " N Z Med J. 2003 Jan 24;116(1168):U295. HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Display & dopt=pu bmed_pubmed & from_uid=12601419 " Related Articles, HYPERLINK " javascript:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu12601419); " Links Ischaemic heart disease, Type 1 diabetes, and cow milk A1 beta-casein. HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Laugesen+M%22%5BAuthor%5D " Laugesen M, HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22Elliott+R%22%5BAuthor%5D " Elliott R. Health New Zealand, Auckland, New Zealand. laugesen@... AIM: To test the correlation of per capita A1 beta-casein (A1/capita) and milk protein with: 1) ischaemic heart disease (IHD) mortality; 2) Type 1 (insulin-dependent) diabetes mellitus (DM-1) incidence. METHODS: A1/capita was estimated as the product of per capita cow milk and cream supply and its A1 beta-casein content (A1/beta) (calculated from herd tests and breed distribution, or from tests of commercial milk), then tested for correlation with: 1) IHD five years later in 1980, 1985, 1990 and 1995, in 20 countries which spent at least US $1000 (purchasing power parities) per capita in 1995 on healthcare; 2) DM-1 at age 0-14 years in 1990-4 (51 were surveyed by WHO DiaMond Project; 19 had A1 data). For comparison, we also correlated 77 food, and 110 nutritive supply FAO (Food and Agriculture Organization)-based measures, against IHD and DM-1. RESULTS: For IHD, cow milk proteins (A1/capita, r = 0.76, p <0.001; A1/capita including cheese, r = 0.66; milk protein r = 0.60, p = 0.005) had stronger positive correlations with IHD five years later, than fat supply variables, such as the atherogenic index (r = 0.50), and myristic, the 14-carbon saturated fat (r = 0.48, p <0.05). The Hegsted scores for estimating serum cholesterol (r = 0.42); saturated fat (r = 0.37); and total dairy fat (r = 0.31) were not significant for IHD in 1995. Across the 20 countries, a 1% change in A1/capita in 1990 was associated with a 0.57% change in IHD in 1995. A1/capita correlations were stronger for male than female mortality. On multiple regression of A1/capita and other food supply variables in 1990, only A1/capita was significantly correlated with IHD in 1995. DM-1 was correlated with supply of: A1/capita in milk and cream (r = 0.92, p <0.00001); milk and cream protein excluding cheese (r = 0.68, p <0.0001); and with A1/beta in milk and cream (r = 0.47, p <0.05). Correlations were not significant for A2, B or C variants of milk beta-casein. DM-1 incidence at 0-4, 5-9 and 10-14 years was equally correlated (r = 0.80, 0.81, 0.81 respectively) with milk protein supply. A 1% change in A1/capita was associated with a 1.3% change in DM-1 in the same direction. CONCLUSIONS: Cow A1 beta-casein per capita supply in milk and cream (A1/capita) was significantly and positively correlated with IHD in 20 affluent countries five years later over a 20-year period--providing an alternative hypothesis to explain the high IHD mortality rates in northern compared to southern Europe. For DM-1, this study confirms Elliott's 1999 correlation on 10 countries for A1/capita,1 but not for B beta-casein/capita. Surveys of A1 beta-casein consumption in two-year-old Nordic children, and some casein animal feeding experiments, confirm the A1/capita and milk protein/capita correlations. They raise the possibility that intensive dairy cattle breeding may have emphasised a genetic variant in milk with adverse effects in humans. Further animal research and clinical trials would be needed to compare disease risks of A1-free versus 'ordinary' milk. HYPERLINK " javascript:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'Med%20Hypotheses.'); " Med Hypotheses. 2001 Aug;57(2):258-75. HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Display & dopt=pu bmed_pubmed & from_uid=11461185 " Related Articles, HYPERLINK " javascript:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu11461185); " Links HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/utils/lofref.fcgi?PrId=3048 & uid=11461185 & db=pubmed & url=http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0306987700913185 " \nClick here to read HYPERLINK " http://ucelinks.cdlib.org:8888/sfx_local?sid=Entrez:PubMed & id=pmid:11461185 " Click here to read Upregulation of lymphocyte apoptosis as a strategy for preventing and treating autoimmune disorders: a role for whole-food vegan diets, fish oil and dopamine agonists. HYPERLINK " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu bmed_Abstract & term=%22McCarty+MF%22%5BAuthor%5D " McCarty MF. Pantox Laboratories, 4622 Santa Fe St, San Diego, CA 92109, USA. Induced apoptosis of autoreactive T-lymphocyte precursors in the thymus is crucial for the prevention of autoimmune disorders. IGF-I and prolactin, which are lymphocyte growth factors, may have the potential to suppress apoptosis in thymocytes and thus encourage autoimmunity; conversely, dietary fish oil rich in omega-3 fats appears to upregulate apoptosis in lymphocytes. Since whole-food vegan diets may downregulate systemic IGF-I activity, it is proposed that such a diet, in conjunction with fish oil supplementation and treatment with dopamine agonists capable of suppressing prolactin secretion, may have utility for treating and preventing autoimmune disorders. This prediction is consistent with the extreme rarity of autoimmune disorders among sub-Saharan black Africans as long as they followed their traditional quasi-vegan lifestyles, and with recent ecologic studies correlating risks for IDDM ( THAT’S DIABETES) and for multiple sclerosis mortality with animal product and/or saturated fat consumption. Moreover, there is evidence that vegan or quasi-vegan diets are useful in the management of rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, and possibly SLE. The dopamine agonist bromocryptine exerts anti-inflammatory effects in rodent models of autoimmunity, and there is preliminary evidence that this drug may be clinically useful in several human autoimmune diseases; better tolerated D2-specific agonists such as cabergoline may prove to be more practical for use in therapy. The moderate clinical utility of supplemental fish oil in rheumatoid arthritis and certain other autoimmune disorders is documented. It is not unlikely that extra-thymic anti-inflammatory effects contribute importantly to the clinical utility of vegan diets, bromocryptine, and fish oil in autoimmunity. The favorable impact of low latitude or high altitude on autoimmune risk may be mediated by superior vitamin D status, which is associated with decreased secretion of parathyroid hormone; there are theoretical grounds for suspecting that parathyroid hormone may inhibit apoptosis in thymocytes. Androgens appear to up-regulate thymocyte apoptosis, may be largely responsible for the relative protection from autoimmunity enjoyed by men, and merit further evaluation for the management of autoimmunity in women. It will probably prove more practical to prevent autoimmune disorders than to reverse them once established; a whole-food vegan diet, coupled with fish oil and vitamin D supplementation, may represent a practical strategy for achieving this prevention, while concurrently lowering risk for many other life-threatening 'Western' diseases. Copyright 2001 Harcourt Publishers Ltd. _____ From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Betty Pearson Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:17 PM Subject: MS My oldest daughter has been diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis. She had an appointment with her OB today, and he sent her straight over to another doctor. Because she is pregnant, they can't do an MRI and spinal tap until 6 weeks after the baby is born. But he told her that he is pretty sure that is what she has...she has every symptom. Anyone here that has it? She is 27 years old, and due with her second baby in March. Any advice? Betty <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " " HYPERLINK " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " http://www.w3.org/T R/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> <UL> <LI><B><A HREF= " HYPERLINK " / " http://health.groups ../group/ / " >NATIVE NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> <LI><B><A HREF= " HYPERLINK " http://onibasu.com/ " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message archive with Onibasu</LI> </UL></FONT> <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> Idol <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer Wanita Sears </FONT></PRE> </BODY> </HTML> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Many MS symptoms improve on a gluten free diet. This is easy and safe and cheap for her to try now. And if it is gluten related it will be all the better for the child for her to be off gluten during the rest of her pregnancy Read Dangerous Grains by Dr Braly. Come to GFCFNN for more inofrmation Ellen On 2/8/06, Betty Pearson <betty@...> wrote: > > My oldest daughter has been diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis. She had > an > appointment with her OB today, and he sent her straight over to another > doctor. Because she is pregnant, they can't do an MRI and spinal tap > until > 6 weeks after the baby is born. But he told her that he is pretty sure > that > is what she has...she has every symptom. > > Anyone here that has it? She is 27 years old, and due with her second > baby > in March. Any advice? > > Betty > > > > > > <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " " > http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT > FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> > <UL> > <LI><B><A HREF= " / " >NATIVE > NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> > <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message > archive with Onibasu</LI> > </UL></FONT> > <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A HREF= " mailto: > -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B> Idol > <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer > Wanita Sears > </FONT></PRE> > </BODY> > </HTML> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Hi Betty: I just got back from a health conference in Seattle and although MS was not discussed it detail it was suggested that MS is linked to lyme disease and herpes. It's worth checking out given MS and many other auto-immune disease continue to confound the medical community. vsp On 2/8/06, Betty Pearson <betty@...> wrote: > > My oldest daughter has been diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis. She had an > appointment with her OB today, and he sent her straight over to another > doctor. Because she is pregnant, they can't do an MRI and spinal tap > until > 6 weeks after the baby is born. But he told her that he is pretty sure > that > is what she has...she has every symptom. > > Anyone here that has it? She is 27 years old, and due with her second > baby > in March. Any advice? > > Betty > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 Gluten MS search gives gluten and dairy thumbs down and animal protein thumbs up. Multiple Sclerosis and Dietary Intervention http://paleodiet.com/ms/ Multiple Sclerosis News http://www.jsumption.com/imssf/modules.php?op=modload & name=Sections & file=index & r\ eq=listarticles & secid=36 Brain Lesions Identical in MS and CD/gluten ataxia (from MS News) http://tinyurl.com/doz97 Wanita There are strong links between MS (and other auto-immune diseases) and diary consumption, and yes raw milk is equally culprit, or more culprit in some studies. There are also known links to high meat consumption. I personally (through reading research) believe that it’s linkd to milk-protein (casein) reactions (like allergic reactions, which are not always apparent to people), at least in part, as this reaction is the kind that’s linked to other auto-immune diseases, including diabetes, and chronic inflammatory-related heart-disease. I’m not sure how the high-meat consumption would fit in though, but imagnine it’d be similar to whatever pathways cause the much higher cancer incidence in high-meat (and dairy) consumers. Gluten intolerance may be anotoher link to MS. linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 My dad was diagnosed with MS about 10 years ago. He could barely walk, talk, hear, see. He didn't want to resign himself to a wheelchair and be dependent on others. He tried a bunch of crazy " cures " . We finally figured out that he had mercury poisoning. He replaced his fillings and did aggressive chelation for a few years. His health improved dramatically. His doctors said he was in " remission " . He never fully recovered (maybe 80-90% better) and he is still doing detox, but he is happy that he found out about mercury. His situation inspired me to create my site http://www.MDLies.com/ Bottom line: It's worthwhile exploring other things that can cause " MS-like " symptoms. I think MS does exist, but there are a bunch of people that are misdiagnosed. Dan http://www.HealthyPages.com/ > My oldest daughter has been diagnosed with Multiple > Sclerosis. She had an > appointment with her OB today, and he sent her straight over > to another > doctor. Because she is pregnant, they can't do an MRI and > spinal tap until > 6 weeks after the baby is born. But he told her that he is > pretty sure that > is what she has...she has every symptom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 I just listened to the DVD by Dr. Canell about Vit D and MS. I would order the CD or DVD from Pfeffer Productions Media Sales PO BOX 1063 Bel Air, MD 21014 On Feb 7, 2006, at 11:16 PM, Betty Pearson wrote: > My oldest daughter has been diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis. She > had an > appointment with her OB today, and he sent her straight over to another > doctor. Because she is pregnant, they can't do an MRI and spinal tap > until > 6 weeks after the baby is born. But he told her that he is pretty > sure that > is what she has...she has every symptom. > > Anyone here that has it? She is 27 years old, and due with her second > baby > in March. Any advice? > > Betty Parashis artpages@... zine: artpagesonline.com portfolio: http://www.artpagesonline.com/EPportfolio/000portfolio.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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