Re: Is the Liver Cleanse Bullsh*t?

[Guest guest]

Placebo effect itself is a non reality as defined. It is merely a way of trying

to explain that which science has not yet been able to understand. The process

is so very real. 35% of any statistical significance; this is why science

demands double blind randomized control based studies. But it is still as real

as any other biochemical/physiological outcome. Try " biology of belief " By Dr.

Bruce Lipton. " Molecules of Emotion " By Dr. Pert. Her latest, " Your

Body Is Your Subconscious Mind " . As to the flushes, the naysayers are parading

their expertise, but like the King, they have no clothes...

It is simple: You are relaxing the smooth involuntary muscles surrounding the

liver, gallbladder, and associated ducts with the magnesium. The apples or

apple juice contain malic acid which softens the crepitus as well as the citric

acid in the lemon/grapefruit juice. You are stimulating a violent release of

bile with the oil which can flush out said crepitus. It does not always work.

So what? There are no guarantees, everyone is different. Just because it does

not work on the first attempt does not mean it will not work on the second or

tenth. And as some of you know, I am not a believer that the green blobs are

stones. So What? Not only do people pass honest to God real stones at times,

even those who do not, have very positive symptomatic relief by passing green

globs. The softening of stones, relaxing of ducts and organs, and stimulation

of bile release are not placebo, they are direct consequence of guzzling a barf

load of oil, magnesium, malic acid etc..

Always, in all ways,

-Dave

Is the Liver Cleanse Bullsh*t?

Lots of people claim that these cleanses produce stones from the liver, and

that the health benefits that result from purging such stones are myriad.

Lots of other people claim that these so called " stones " were never in the

liver or gall bladder, but were produced in the intestine by the combination of

oil, citrus, bile, cholesterol, and mag. sulfate.

I have seen compelling arguments on both sides of the equation, and I simply

cannot make up my mind whether or not this is a valid form or therapy, or if it

is 100% placebo based on the belief that something powerful is happening and

that symptom relief is derived from the genuine belief that some toxic material

has been eliminated from the body.

This kind of placebo effect can be a very powerful agent of healing, and has

been used by Shaman for thousands of years.

Help me to understand why this cleanse is actually eliminating stones from the

organs, and is not just producing stones and activating a placebo response.

And by the way, I am in no way interested in invalidating the placebo effect.

I have studied this phenomenon extensively, and I understand the potency and

value of a good placebo.

Thanks.

[Guest guest]

I believe the reason your doctor has not seen a calcified stone disappear was

because she has never seen anyone who did a series of liver cleanses, Judy

[Guest guest]

Here's my understanding of how and why liver/GB flushes help improve peoples'

health, which includes a brief explanation of the physiology and mechanisms

involved:

The liver makes bile.

One of the functions of bile to help break down the fats in the food we eat.

Bile also contains metabolic wastes, particularly bilirubin, along with other

toxic materials. The liver deposits these toxins and wastes into the bile so

they can be eliminated from the body via the digestive tract.

Bile is stored in the gall bladder when it's not needed immediately for

digestion.

Over time, especially if we don't eat right, or if we're exposed to toxins, or

consume pesticide laden food and/or take pharmaceutical drugs etc, the bile

stored in the GB can become thick, congealed, stagnated and toxic, sometimes

even to the point where calcified stones can form. All this can cause congestion

of the flow of bile through the biliary ducts, thereby preventing toxins and

wastes contained in the bile from being eliminated as they should be.

Besides preventing wastes and toxins from moving out of the body in a timely

manner, this congested flow of bile can also negatively effect the digestion of

food as well as peristalsis.

When food containing fat enters the duodenum from the stomach, this stimulates

the release of a hormone called cholecystokinin, which in turn triggers the gall

bladder to excrete bile and the pancreas to excrete digestive enzymes into the

biliary tract, from where these substances then enter the duodenum.

When doing a /Moritz type flush, no fat is eaten for approximately 36 hours

prior to the ingestion of the olive oil mixture. This means no bile is triggered

to be released from the GB for that length of time. Since most people normally

consume at least some fat with every meal, this abstaining from fat for an

extended period creates a build up pressure of bile in the GB.

When the mixture containing a considerable amount of olive oil is consumed all

at once the evening of the flush, and subsequently enters the duodenum

triggering the release of cholecystokinin, this causes the gall bladder to

release a good bit of material, due to the built up pressure and the large

amount of fat consumed all at once.

Taking the large doses of epsom salt before and after the ingestion of the olive

oil a) causes the smooth muscles of the biliary ducts to open and relax, making

a wider path through which material released from the GB can flow, relaxes

the sphincter of Oddi, which is the valve that connects the biliary duct to the

duodenum, and c) liquefies stool creating copious watery eliminations which

effectively flush much of the contents of the digestive tract, including the

released material from the GB, out of the body.

Whether or not authentic bile stones are passed during a flush is basically

irrelevant to me. What is clear to me is that most people have stagnant material

clogging their GBs. I also understand the physiological mechanisms at work

during a flush, which tell me that material most definitely IS released from the

GB due to the ingestion of all that olive oil, and that the gunky matter that

passes out of the GB, which can take many forms, is subsequently eliminated into

the toilet via multiple liquid stools, courtesy of the ingestion of large doses

of the laxative Mg sulfate (aka epsom salt).

What's also clear is that getting rid of this stagnant material, particularly by

doing a series of flushes, can be of great benefit to most anyone, but most

especially those who are suffering from chronic illness.

On top of that, combining the flush with water and/or coffee enemas, colonic

irrigation, warm castor oil packs over the liver, and the ingestion of apple

juice and/or ortho-phosphoric acid for several days prior to the flush, can all

do wonders to enhance its benefits even further.

Hope this helps to clarify things a bit,

Elan

>

> Lots of people claim that these cleanses produce stones from the liver, and

that the health benefits that result from purging such stones are myriad.

>

[Guest guest]

Whether it actually eliminates stones from the gallbladder or is a placebo

either way you heal and benefit. The mind heals the body and this is something

that should be accentuated in medicine instead of eliminated.

From what I've learned in Life is that you can predict, forecast, research until

your brain spins and you will never actually know whether somethings works until

you try it. So anticipating whether a gallbladder flush will help you or not is

like attempting to forecast the weather. It's often wrong.

Experience in life is everything, if your open to trying a gallbladder flush try

it and allow your intuition to guide you for these decisions.

Give the analytical mind a rest. It is often overused these days.

>

> Lots of people claim that these cleanses produce stones from the liver, and

that the health benefits that result from purging such stones are myriad.

>

> Lots of other people claim that these so called " stones " were never in the

liver or gall bladder, but were produced in the intestine by the combination of

oil, citrus, bile, cholesterol, and mag. sulfate.

>

> I have seen compelling arguments on both sides of the equation, and I simply

cannot make up my mind whether or not this is a valid form or therapy, or if it

is 100% placebo based on the belief that something powerful is happening and

that symptom relief is derived from the genuine belief that some toxic material

has been eliminated from the body.

>

> This kind of placebo effect can be a very powerful agent of healing, and has

been used by Shaman for thousands of years.

>

> Help me to understand why this cleanse is actually eliminating stones from the

organs, and is not just producing stones and activating a placebo response.

>

> And by the way, I am in no way interested in invalidating the placebo effect.

I have studied this phenomenon extensively, and I understand the potency and

value of a good placebo.

>

> Thanks.

>

[Guest guest]

I've read of MD's who have the opposite experience. Even some people in this

forum have had gallstones disappear from view of an ultrasound.

Ultrasounds can not show all of the calcified gallstones. This is a 2

dimensional image attempting to interpret 3 dimensional structures within the

body.

>

> Hi group,

>

> I talked with an MD who's work was to check people by an ultrasound

> equipment. These are her words. " For 15 years now I have never seen a

> (calcified) gallstone disappear by flushing. There was only one case

> and the guy was a high-level Yoga follower who used visualization and

> possibly other methods unknown to me " .

>

> Good luck everibody.

>

> Simeon

>

>

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