Re: Need some thinkin' help - fine filtered milk?

[Guest guest]

Hi Lyn,

That's what my grains have been doing too, for maybe up to 3 years; I keep

having ask Marilyn to send me more every 6-8 months or so. They last for a

while but keep shrinking until they disappear completely, all the time

making very normal kefir. Although Marilyn's dried ones are very healthy

and they take no time at all to start making good kefir, this time I thought

I'd try with fresh grains and found some beautiful ones in Ontario. I wish

I could figure out what the problem is and keep these grains going forever.

Marilyn's first suggestion was silicone, which Al also mentioned - I had

started to use a silicone spatula. But stopping that hasn't stopped the

problem. As far as I can figure out, I'm making kefir exactly the way I

used to, when I had beautiful, fat, growing grains full of kefiran.

Unless it's the milk. There's no raw milk whatsoever around here so I've

always used organic milk. But I've also often had to use organic " fine

filtered " milk, which didn't exist until fairly recently (I don't think). I

wondered if that was my problem so I looked it up. It doesn't mean

ultra-pasteurized, just filtered; it's also pasteurized the normal way. I

don't know if you have that in the USA; if anyone knows that it could harm

kefir grains, please let me know. From what I've read it sounds safe, but

something's not working here!

I don't know if anything in this email will help you, Lyn, other than the

fact that you're not the only one; at least you can find raw milk. I hope

that once you stop using Teflon your grains will be happy. (I use plastic

to strain.) It's so simple, and yet you have to be so careful!

Thanks for any thoughts on 'fine filtered' milk!

Francie

(apologies for the length of this)

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Lyn

Sent: June-14-12 2:24 PM

Subject: Need some thinkin' help

I am having continual trouble with MKG. This third set I got in Jan has the

biggest grains of the three sets of grains I've used and she measured them

out in 1/4 c measure. The other two were fine grains and that lady measured

them out with a tsp.

These grains have been shrinking on me pretty much from the start. In April

I tried putting some into a baby food jar with milk, and 4 weeks later, I

looked into my untouched, unloved jar and my eyes popped. I had my very own

happy healthy vibrant, shiny grains. But the other jar of kefir and its

grains that I had been changing daily, stayed getting small. So I put them

both together into a new jar of milk and used the both sets like that. Well,

the big ones began to shrink right away. So I felt maybe that my little

colander had holes that were too big. So I went online and bought a set of

fine mesh strainers. This started out to change my kefir and I thought it

was now on the upswing.

But, alas, last weekend I put out a WANTED ad on my local freecycle group

for new kefir grains because they have shrank so small that they are now as

small as curds.

Someone who responded to me introduced me to the idea that teflon kills

kefir grains. I had never heard of that. She said she heard about it on this

group, so I looked into the messages today. But there is nothing under

" Teflon " about this talk.

[Guest guest]

Hi Francie,

I am wondering if it is the detergent used to wash the containers the milk is

put into. We finally found some raw goat's milk but the kefir stays very thin

as opposed to the lovely thick kefir we were making with the same grains from

raw cow's milk. Worse maybe than the detergents used may be using clorex bleach

to stearlize containers used for their milk. I just learned that the people we

get our goat milk from " stearlize " everything with bleach. Before (just 2 weeks

ago) with our raw cow's milk, our grains were as big as softballs, now they

stopped growing and have shrunk in size as well as our goat's milk kefir staying

very runny and thin. I would really wonder about the " awful " scented dish

detergents (supposedly smell good???) and clorex bleach being the factors here,

ESPECIALLY if they use plastic bucket containers like our present goat milk

people do.

Alice

Hi Lyn,

That's what my grains have been doing too, for maybe up to 3 years; I keep

having I could figure out what the problem is and keep these grains going

forever.

Marilyn's first suggestion was silicone, which Al also mentioned - I had

started to use a silicone spatula. But stopping that hasn't stopped the

problem. As far as I can figure out, I'm making kefir exactly the way I

used to, when I had beautiful, fat, growing grains full of kefiran.

Francie

(

[Guest guest]

Other things to look out for is the use of antibiotics, hormones, pesticides on

the feed or grass, herbicides, fungicides...all can effect the grains and you.

Al

Need some thinkin' help

I am having continual trouble with MKG. This third set I got in Jan has the

biggest grains of the three sets of grains I've used and she measured them

out in 1/4 c measure. The other two were fine grains and that lady measured

them out with a tsp.

These grains have been shrinking on me pretty much from the start. In April

I tried putting some into a baby food jar with milk, and 4 weeks later, I

looked into my untouched, unloved jar and my eyes popped. I had my very own

happy healthy vibrant, shiny grains. But the other jar of kefir and its

grains that I had been changing daily, stayed getting small. So I put them

both together into a new jar of milk and used the both sets like that. Well,

the big ones began to shrink right away. So I felt maybe that my little

colander had holes that were too big. So I went online and bought a set of

fine mesh strainers. This started out to change my kefir and I thought it

was now on the upswing.

But, alas, last weekend I put out a WANTED ad on my local freecycle group

for new kefir grains because they have shrank so small that they are now as

small as curds.

Someone who responded to me introduced me to the idea that teflon kills

kefir grains. I had never heard of that. She said she heard about it on this

group, so I looked into the messages today. But there is nothing under

" Teflon " about this talk.

[Guest guest]

Thanks all for the good ideas. But I can't pinpoint anything bcuz I have lived

in two different states with these newest grains, and the condition of these

grains been the same since the start. When I got them they were the size of

large marbles. Now I have curds.

So let me throw this out for ideas: I have never washed my Ball jars since the

initial washing. I have always let the curds in from jar to jar.

Should I change that practice?

Keep in mind my first two sets of grains in 2011 had the problem of never

growing. EVER. That meant I could only culture 2 c a day for that whole year,

and the jar I used then was a clean almond butter glass jar. So they didn't

shrink, they just would not ever grow.

Lyn

----- Original Message -----

From: " Alice Connell " <abconn@...>

I am wondering if it is the detergent used to wash the containers the milk is

put into. We finally found some raw goat's milk but the kefir stays very thin as

opposed to the lovely thick kefir we were making with the same grains from raw

cow's milk. Worse maybe than the detergents used may be using clorex bleach to

stearlize containers used for their milk. I just learned that the people we get

our goat milk from " stearlize " everything with bleach. Before (just 2 weeks ago)

with our raw cow's milk, our grains were as big as softballs, now they stopped

growing and have shrunk in size as well as our goat's milk kefir staying very

runny and thin. I would really wonder about the " awful " scented dish detergents

(supposedly smell good???) and clorex bleach being the factors here, ESPECIALLY

if they use plastic bucket containers like our present goat milk people do.

Alice

Hi Lyn,

That's what my grains have been doing too, for maybe up to 3 years; I keep

having I could figure out what the problem is and keep these grains going

forever.

Marilyn's first suggestion was silicone, which Al also mentioned - I had

started to use a silicone spatula. But stopping that hasn't stopped the

problem. As far as I can figure out, I'm making kefir exactly the way I

used to, when I had beautiful, fat, growing grains full of kefiran.

Francie

(

[Guest guest]

We use raw cows milk, wooden and plastic spoons, glass jars (rinsed) we time out

at 12 hours. Grains have been growing and producing additional grains. This has

been ongoing since Dec '11. Got them from the kefir lady.

I think the trick is always give them the best raw milk, and give them the same

attention you would a pet.

Here is a link to my kefir images. We have since reduced the amount of grains we

collect.

n on

>

> Thanks all for the good ideas. But I can't pinpoint anything bcuz I have lived

in two different states with these newest grains, and the condition of these

grains been the same since the start. When I got them they were the size of

large marbles. Now I have curds.

>

> So let me throw this out for ideas: I have never washed my Ball jars since the

initial washing. I have always let the curds in from jar to jar.

>

> Should I change that practice?

>

> Keep in mind my first two sets of grains in 2011 had the problem of never

growing. EVER. That meant I could only culture 2 c a day for that whole year,

and the jar I used then was a clean almond butter glass jar. So they didn't

shrink, they just would not ever grow.

>

> Lyn

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " Alice Connell " <abconn@...>

>

> I am wondering if it is the detergent used to wash the containers the milk is

put into. We finally found some raw goat's milk but the kefir stays very thin as

opposed to the lovely thick kefir we were making with the same grains from raw

cow's milk. Worse maybe than the detergents used may be using clorex bleach to

stearlize containers used for their milk. I just learned that the people we get

our goat milk from " stearlize " everything with bleach. Before (just 2 weeks ago)

with our raw cow's milk, our grains were as big as softballs, now they stopped

growing and have shrunk in size as well as our goat's milk kefir staying very

runny and thin. I would really wonder about the " awful " scented dish detergents

(supposedly smell good???) and clorex bleach being the factors here, ESPECIALLY

if they use plastic bucket containers like our present goat milk people do.

>

> Alice

>

> Hi Lyn,

>

> That's what my grains have been doing too, for maybe up to 3 years; I keep

> having I could figure out what the problem is and keep these grains going

forever.

>

> Marilyn's first suggestion was silicone, which Al also mentioned - I had

> started to use a silicone spatula. But stopping that hasn't stopped the

> problem. As far as I can figure out, I'm making kefir exactly the way I

> used to, when I had beautiful, fat, growing grains full of kefiran.

>

> Francie

>

> (

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Lyn,

All utensils should be clean and dry when working with your grains, including

the culturing vessel. Lots of people don’t wash the culturing vessel and that

works fine for them; there may not be any harm. But using clean containers is

just good hygienic practice. Some believe there are ‘baby kefir grains’

growing on the sides of the container, but this is not where kefir grains grow.

The grains themselves grow in size and multiply in number. They do not release

seeds that cling to the sides of containers. What you see when you pour kefir

out of a glass are the tiny kefir curds that flow down the side of the glass in

rivulets. You can test this by pressing it with a finger. Kefir grains are

resilient. You will feel them when you press on them. Curds will immediately

smash when pressed and you will feel no resistance either in your mouth or

between your fingers.

As for the grains themselves, they are best not rinsed unless there are

problems, though I have seen some rinse them regularly.

I hope this is helpful to you.

From: ly.ninwv@...

Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 10:48 AM

Good Kefir Grains

Subject: Re: Need some thinkin' help - fine filtered milk?

Thanks all for the good ideas. But I can't pinpoint anything bcuz I have lived

in two different states with these newest grains, and the condition of these

grains been the same since the start. When I got them they were the size of

large marbles. Now I have curds.

So let me throw this out for ideas: I have never washed my Ball jars since the

initial washing. I have always let the curds in from jar to jar.

Should I change that practice?

Keep in mind my first two sets of grains in 2011 had the problem of never

growing. EVER. That meant I could only culture 2 c a day for that whole year,

and the jar I used then was a clean almond butter glass jar. So they didn't

shrink, they just would not ever grow.

Lyn

[Guest guest]

I would say it's more of the quality of the milk that's the issue. If you are

changing from a poor quality of milk to a good quality of milk, I would

definitely use a clean jar. Otherwise, I have not cleaned my jar but I think

once and it was because some of the kefir dried a lot around the neck of the

jar. I don't think the issue is because you haven't cleaned the jar, but the

quality of milk.

Al

Re: Need some thinkin' help - fine filtered milk?

Thanks all for the good ideas. But I can't pinpoint anything bcuz I have

lived in two different states with these newest grains, and the condition of

these grains been the same since the start. When I got them they were the size

of large marbles. Now I have curds.

So let me throw this out for ideas: I have never washed my Ball jars since the

initial washing. I have always let the curds in from jar to jar.

Should I change that practice?

Keep in mind my first two sets of grains in 2011 had the problem of never

growing. EVER. That meant I could only culture 2 c a day for that whole year,

and the jar I used then was a clean almond butter glass jar. So they didn't

shrink, they just would not ever grow.

Lyn

----- Original Message -----

From: " Alice Connell " <abconn@...>

I am wondering if it is the detergent used to wash the containers the milk is

put into. We finally found some raw goat's milk but the kefir stays very thin as

opposed to the lovely thick kefir we were making with the same grains from raw

cow's milk. Worse maybe than the detergents used may be using clorex bleach to

stearlize containers used for their milk. I just learned that the people we get

our goat milk from " stearlize " everything with bleach. Before (just 2 weeks ago)

with our raw cow's milk, our grains were as big as softballs, now they stopped

growing and have shrunk in size as well as our goat's milk kefir staying very

runny and thin. I would really wonder about the " awful " scented dish detergents

(supposedly smell good???) and clorex bleach being the factors here, ESPECIALLY

if they use plastic bucket containers like our present goat milk people do.

Alice

Hi Lyn,

That's what my grains have been doing too, for maybe up to 3 years; I keep

having I could figure out what the problem is and keep these grains going

forever.

Marilyn's first suggestion was silicone, which Al also mentioned - I had

started to use a silicone spatula. But stopping that hasn't stopped the

problem. As far as I can figure out, I'm making kefir exactly the way I

used to, when I had beautiful, fat, growing grains full of kefiran.

Francie

(

[Guest guest]

I understand the concern about having a clean vessel, but the fear that there

are bad microbes in there just waiting to kill the grains is unfounded. The

germ theory is false and all people would be sick and die if that was the case.

It's about the terraine of the body...ie, your immune system. Clean utensils is

defintely a good idea but its not necessary for the jar. I always have a little

kefir (not a lot) clinging to the jar and I have no doubt, there are small ones

that don't have enough weight pulling them out of the jar when I pour it out.

Just my two cents.

Al

\

Re: Need some thinkin' help - fine filtered milk?

Hi Lyn,

All utensils should be clean and dry when working with your grains, including

the culturing vessel. Lots of people don’t wash the culturing vessel and that

works fine for them; there may not be any harm. But using clean containers is

just good hygienic practice. Some believe there are ‘baby kefir grains’

growing on the sides of the container, but this is not where kefir grains grow.

The grains themselves grow in size and multiply in number. They do not release

seeds that cling to the sides of containers. What you see when you pour kefir

out of a glass are the tiny kefir curds that flow down the side of the glass in

rivulets. You can test this by pressing it with a finger. Kefir grains are

resilient. You will feel them when you press on them. Curds will immediately

smash when pressed and you will feel no resistance either in your mouth or

between your fingers.

As for the grains themselves, they are best not rinsed unless there are

problems, though I have seen some rinse them regularly.

I hope this is helpful to you.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for all the responses and thoughts on Lyn’s and my tiny grains. I do

clean my jars, after which I tend to rinse them vigorously many times with very

hot water because like you, Alice, I don’t want any soap to be left in the

jar.

I don’t know if it’s the milk I’m using which is causing my problems, but

I don’t have much choice. At least I can get organic milk; it’s just the

fine filtered kind which I’m not sure of. It could be better than the

non-filtered type if filtering means less pasteurization, but it’s difficult

to find any information. Is it available in the States?

Francie

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of ouched63188@...

Sent: June-15-12 5:44 PM

Kefir Grains forum

Subject: Re: Need some thinkin' help - fine filtered milk?

I understand the concern about having a clean vessel, but the fear that there

are bad microbes in there just waiting to kill the grains is unfounded. The germ

theory is false and all people would be sick and die if that was the case. It's

about the terraine of the body...ie, your immune system. Clean utensils is

defintely a good idea but its not necessary for the jar. I always have a little

kefir (not a lot) clinging to the jar and I have no doubt, there are small ones

that don't have enough weight pulling them out of the jar when I pour it out.

Just my two cents.

Al

[Guest guest]

Hi Al,

My recommendation to use clean vessels and utensils isn’t based on fear of

microbes or the germ theory at all, it’s just good hygiene.

Hope that helps to clear up any confusion about my previous comments.

From: ouched63188@...

Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 2:44 PM

Kefir Grains forum

Subject: Re: Need some thinkin' help - fine filtered milk?

I understand the concern about having a clean vessel, but the fear that there

are bad microbes in there just waiting to kill the grains is unfounded. The germ

theory is false and all people would be sick and die if that was the case. It's

about the terraine of the body...ie, your immune system. Clean utensils is

defintely a good idea but its not necessary for the jar. I always have a little

kefir (not a lot) clinging to the jar and I have no doubt, there are small ones

that don't have enough weight pulling them out of the jar when I pour it out.

Just my two cents.

Al

\

Re: Need some thinkin' help - fine filtered milk?

Hi Lyn,

All utensils should be clean and dry when working with your grains, including

the culturing vessel. Lots of people don’t wash the culturing vessel and that

works fine for them; there may not be any harm. But using clean containers is

just good hygienic practice. Some believe there are ‘baby kefir grains’

growing on the sides of the container, but this is not where kefir grains grow.

The grains themselves grow in size and multiply in number. They do not release

seeds that cling to the sides of containers. What you see when you pour kefir

out of a glass are the tiny kefir curds that flow down the side of the glass in

rivulets. You can test this by pressing it with a finger. Kefir grains are

resilient. You will feel them when you press on them. Curds will immediately

smash when pressed and you will feel no resistance either in your mouth or

between your fingers.

As for the grains themselves, they are best not rinsed unless there are

problems, though I have seen some rinse them regularly.

I hope this is helpful to you.