Question

[Guest guest]

Hi ,, I would like to give you my coldancenes

sorry for the misspelling. Wish you the very best

and keep your chin up know that your husband is in a

better world and smileing down on you. God Bless

in Az.

--- Cheeky <Cheekyoops@...> wrote:

> I just looked again at the run report, and the word

> hyperkalemia is in there also. How would the

> paramedics know?

> question

>

> has anyone on here ever woken up in the

> middle of the night sweatign and there heart

> pumping

=== message truncated ===

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[Guest guest]

Wow. What a sad story. My heart goes out to you . I can't imagine going through that. We have our ICD's to save our lives's and that makes us feel safe...??? This defiantly got me thinking...

God bless you!

Vee

I have been waiting for the right post for me to say hello to you folks in! When I read this one I knew it was it ….. Please know Stacie that I am not saying that the story I am about to tell you has ANYTHING to do with your condition, it was just similar complaints from an unexpected patient!

I have been a firefighter/ paramedic/ educator for 36 years now, and I have been called out on the same symptoms you describe hundreds of times. The cause of the symptoms range from life threatening to bordering on comic, as in the case I am about to describe. These symptoms should NOT be taken lightly unless you know what triggers them and know medically they are nothing to worry about. They can, as I mentioned, be life threatening tachycardia’s that need to be cardioverted either emergently or electively that night but most often they were from other causes. I take it that these were two separate events both waking you from sleep and self relieving??? That is comforting since it is not the usual presentation for the life threatening causes, but should still be evaluated!

What I primarily wanted to share was a memory of a call your post reminded me of. I worked for City of San Diego and was stationed at one of their fire stations. The engine Capt use to be a paramedic and we VERY VERY good, we always loved having his back up on calls. Not only technically good, but he was good with people too, no medicine we carry is as effective as a calming touch or comforting word at the right time.

It is 3:30 AM and we get a call for Chest Pain, pt conscious. We arrive to find our off duty tonight Capt as the patient … he gave a nervous laugh when I walked in and said it was OK, he was fine ( yet he was pale and very sweaty …NOT good signs in the presence of chest pain that he called in). But when he explained what happened it all made sense….

He was sleeping and dreamed he was back in the Navy. He said he was doing routine tasks that had nothing to do with medicine when he sees his commanding officer coming at him with defib paddles in hand!

He asked, “what are you doing?â€

CO said “ I’m gonna shock you, your in VFib!â€

Our Capt protested he was not, he was fine and not even feeling ill and noted that he was not even hooked up to a monitor!

CO said: “Don’t matter, your in VFib and I’m gonna shock you!â€

CO ripped his shirt off in one quick movement placed the paddles on his chest, the defibrillator could be heard charging as he screamed for the CO to STOP!!

He said he then woke up with crushing sub sterna chest pain radiating down his arms, drenched in sweat and the heart pounding as you described so he called 911 sure she was having a heart attack.

Within the 4 minutes it took us to get there she said he fully woke up, all the symptoms were 85-90% gone, no chest pain no palpitations, we hooked him up to the ECG and his rhythm was totally normal.

We offered to take him in for a check up if he wanted but said he had DEFINITLY run a few too many medical calls that week and he should at least call in sick a couple shifts! He didn’t ( I knew he would not, he loves his job as much as I did) and he was fine….did make him rethink a few lifestyle issues he worked on so maybe it even did HIM some good!

I hope, Stacie, that yours have just such an ending. You do need to learn the cause and deal with that, just treating the symptoms is usually bordering on useless if you don’t fix the cause of the symptoms.

From: @groups .com [mailto:] On Behalf Of LIghtingpawSent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 6:08 PM@groups .comSubject: question

has anyone on here ever woken up in the middle of the night sweatign and there heart pumping like ythey just ran a race ? the last two nights this has been happening !!! just wondering if aanyone asle has had this happen to thim !

stacie ,24 shocking life ofr shocking people !!!!

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[Guest guest]

Hi , I am so sorry for your loss! Only losing a child can

compare to losing the love of your life, in my opinion.. My wife was a

BRILLIANT RN who I learned so much from and the love of my life ! She

died on duty after suffering an allergic reaction to her latex gloves followed

by the Dr on duty intubating her in such a way that nobody could survive. I

teach the airway procedure be botched, he has SEEN one done in med school 20 years

before, had never done one. Every paramedic on the street is required to

show proficiency in that procedure every 2-4 years or they can not stay

certified/licensed. If only the same were true of doctors!

I disagree that you “should not ask” the question, I

think it is VITAL that you do! To have any doubt in your mind that

everything possible was done can eat away at a person for decades, so I am

happy that you asked!

While I can not speak to what happened to Tom specifically, not having

seen the report or knowing much more about him you have given me enough clues

that I feel confidant I can answer your question and help you deal with your

concern. If you would like to talk about this more specifically you are welcome

to call me anytime at (800) 646-4392, that rings to my cell phone whenever I am

not in the office and I am use to calls at all hours dealing with clients to my

business and Foundation from Belfast to Hawaii and every time zone

between. I think it is so important you get closure on this for your own

wellbeing.

As we have learned with defibrillation, it is seconds and

not minutes that count! That is why you considered taking him in the car

and that is part of why you are concerned about the ambulance scene time and

that he was not transported “five minutes to the hospital.”

Both are concerns I have frequently heard and should have been discussed

with you in detail 2 years ago! It is so sad you have struggled with this

all these months.

Prehospital care with paramedics has only been around since 1966

internationally, in the US since 1967. While there are wide varieties of protocols

there are some things all have in common. For one thing all are

under control of a physician Board certified in Emergency Medicine. Most

systems we are on line by radio or phone from early in the call thru delivery

to the hospital or termination of the call. Some, such as land, in

Tom’s case I could have had a Nephrologists and Cardiologist who has been

trained in the field capabilities and limitations of their local paramedics to

consult with immediately by radio. Some have extensive standing orders,

much as nurses in critical care units at hospitals do.

I can assure you that the ER physician was involved in every

aspect of Tom’s care from the time the first responders arrived and it

was the emergency department physician, often consulting with the patients

personal physician that made the decision to terminate the resuscitation in the

field. One thing that clearly was NOT done, or at least was not done

well, is that I always consult the family as well if I am going to do a field

termination. If the Dr. tells me to terminate and in my opinion or being

directly told the family could not handle that well I will over-rule the

physician and transport anyway with full treatment continuing enroute and the

Dr can terminate himself at the ER if that is his choice. We have authorization

to refuse to terminate, we do NOT have permission to terminate without a Dr specifically

concurring even if that is the families request. Much more often it

happens the family requests us not to resuscitate, to allow him to go

peacefully but we are not allowed to comply because the necessary paperwork is

not readily available to show that was the patient/next-of kin’s desire.

I would guess that another concern would be; is there anything

that could be done at the hospital that was not tried in the field? Or could

the hospital have done something more effectively then in the field.

Again, I can assure you that the physician in the ER was directing every

injection and every treatment modality that the paramedics tried for that

entire 45 minutes. If there was ANYTHING else that either the Doctor or

the paramedics could think of that COULD be tried at the hospital I can promise

you with certainty that Tom would have been transported MUCH sooner.

These units are not called Mobil Intensive Care Units or Mobile

Intensive Coronary Care Units without good cause. While systems vary we

can do 12 leads, pacing, give clot busters where appropriate, cardioversion, pericardiocentisis,

needle thoracostomy, cricotyroidotomies, conscious intubations, and carry

most cardiac meds to the 4th or 5th ACLS levels. In

rural and suburban communities it is often suggested that the critically ill

medical or trauma patient gets the best critical/first minutes care in the

field then they would had they been in the ER. Consider that in a given

ER small/moderate size ER there are 2-4 nurses and 1-2 docs taking care of , at

times, many patients --- often taking care of more then one that are also as

critical as Tom was.

You mentioned the Fire Department got there first. In most

communities they would be at least trained as Emergency Medical Technicians but

many also have a paramedic or two among them as well and may be fully advanced

life support equipped. So you would have 3-5 EMTs and a paramedic with

Fire initiating care with only ONE patient to be concerned about and that was

Tom. Then the ambulance arrived “a minute later” that usually

will have two paramedics or one paramedic and another EMT, again, only ONE

focus of concern --- Tom with NOTHING to distract their attention.

Only the largest hospitals could assure that amount of resources

dedicated on one patient in the first few minutes of a resuscitation.

That was the point of a New England Journal of Medicine report a couple months

ago that was critical of the response to shock time in hospitals outside

the critical care units of the hospital on in house patients.

Editorially stating that in some cases the patient outcome could be better in a

casino or airport terminal then a non-critical care area of a hospital.

That is the whole reason for having AEDs and IADs, shaving seconds to

minutes off time to shock.

The bottom line here , is that you can rest comfortably

knowing that every possible treatment available to Tom in OR out of the

hospital was tried that night and, unfortunately, his body did not respond with

success to those treatments, as you noted in reviewing his run sheet. Had

there been ANYTHING else that the Dr could have done in the ER he would have

ordered an earlier transport time. Just as you knew not

to try to walk him to the car the Dr and the paramedics know that you can not

do the BEST patient care in a lights and siren ambulance --- I often take VERY

sick patients TO the hospital without lights and siren because I can not effectively

do the treatment in a rapidly moving ambulance, while I can do the skills in a

smoothly driven unit. Sometimes they must be done in a stationary unit.

What failed you and failed MISERUBLY to your harm, (and that of

other family members I would guess ), is communication!!! That is THE

most powerfully used and most powerfully abused medical modalities that we have

in or out of the hospital and we, frankly, often do a lousy job of it!

What SHOULD have happened and the glaring error in your

description is that one of the firemen should have been assigned as a liaison

between you and the team working on Tom. They should have explained to

you that he went into cardiac arrest and the crew was on contact with the

hospital and everything that could be done at the hospital was being done at

that very moment.

They should have given you frequent reports on specifically what

they were doing and how Tom was responding, or in this case that he was

not. Something VERY controversial that I do that few agree with me on,

but that I feel I am right on is…if the patient is not responding and I

believe this will be an unsuccessful resuscitation is I get at least one family

member, more if appropriate, involved in the care, right in the back of

the ambulance with me, after consulting with my firefighter liaison to

see if he/she agrees the family member could handle and desire that. Most

paramedics and hospitals alike do not ALLOW anybody to view the resuscitation that

is not part of the team. They are exiled to a “quiet room” that is

easy for staff to slip away from when bad news is delivered.

You are feeling the too frequent results! Those nagging

questions “they” make you believe you are “not supposed”

to ask…..yet you feel them, they are on your mind constantly for months

or years. Had I been on the call with Tom and he was not responding you

would have known what we were doing every 5-10 minutes and been reassured the

Dr was right there as part of the team wither on the radio or telephone.

When I felt it was not going to end well (or often sooner) I would have had the

firefighter ask if you would like to be with Tom while we worked on him.

If you declined or if the firefighter informed me he did not think you could stand

that I would have left Tom, with care continuing with the other medic, and

pulled you aside and let you know that Tom was not responding and the Dr has

suggested ( that is the term I use with families) that we let him go in peace,

that there is NOTHING that the Dr, the hospital , or that we could do that

would change the outcome and that was not tried. I would give YOU the

final decision on shall we transport him to the hospital where they have

already determined there was nothing further that could be done, or shall we

let him go and again offer you the option of spending time alone or with us to

say goodbye.

Can you imagine the discomfort you would have been spared?

The peace you would have felt KNOWING that EVERYTHING possible was done and it

was not going to end as we all wished? Again , I am sorry for

your loss but sincerely hope this explanation brings you peace. If you

want to talk more, it would be my honor to talk to you at the above number.

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Cheeky

Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 5:13 PM

Subject: Re: question

Hi Dan, I KNOW I shouldnt ask you the following question, but, the

answer you give won't change anything anyways.

A little bit of history here,,,my husband has had a defibrillator

since 1996. In 2005 his kidneys were failing fast, and he was put

on a kidney transplant waiting list. We were able to find a live

donor, and Tom was *this* close to getting the transplant. On May

15, 2006, Tom woke up early, told me he was very short of breath. I

told him I would call an ambulance because I did not want him walking out to

our car. The firemen got here first, followed a minute later by the

ambulance. Tom was put on a stretcher. On their way out the front

door, I saw Tom's head slump down. I could tell he was in cardiac

arrest when he was being put in the ambulance. I wasn't worried,

" He's got a defibillalltor. " 45 minutes later, after

working on him in the ambulance, I was told that he was dead. The

ambulance never left my house., for the 5 minute drive to the hospital.

(Big sigh of hesitation here).........Would Tom have had a chance,

had he been rushed to the hospital? In the weeks to follow, I was

able to get a run report, (I think thats what it was called) with

details of every procedure they tried on Tom, with the words. 'no response'

after each line.

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

Question for anybody in the group ---

I keep meaning to ask the Drs this and I keep forgetting

to. Maybe someone in the group knows…

If the person is in asystole ( no heart rhythm/flat line)

the defibrillator should not be firing from what I understand. A

pacemaker, yes, but not a defibrillator. Yet I often hear from people I

consider reliable that the person was in asystole but the ICD was still

firing. The only time I can see that is with CPR sometimes we create

artifacts that give a false positive for VFib or V Tach and can cause a

discharge.

Can anybody help me understand? I will try to remember to

bring this up in run review as well.

Thanks in advance….

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Cheeky

Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 6:57 AM

Subject: Re: question

Thanks for writing, .

I just looked at the run report again, and the word asystole is in

there several times. His icd WAS working, when I was allowed to go in the

ambulance after he was dead, the icd was still firing, although quite weakly,

low battery I suppose after 45 minutes.

We didn't have an autopsy done. It is required in the county

where I live, if the person dies at home, but because Tom was already in the

hands of the paramedics when he died, it wasnt required.

The death certificate, signed by his nephrologist, says

: Cause of death, end stage renal disease. Underlying,

congestive heart failure , pulmonary edema.

Love,

-----

Original Message -----

From: Baker

Sent: Tuesday, March 18,

2008 8:15 PM

Subject: RE:

question

I’m

so sorry to hear about your husband.

This is my

speculation as a nurse practitioner who works in the emergency department.

If the ICD

didn’t bring him back, he was most likely in asystole (flat line) unless

of course the ICD failed.

Advanced

Cardiac Life Support protocol is standardized between all prehospital and

hospital providers.. most likely there weren’t doing anything differently

than the emergency department personnel would do.

My guess

would be hyperkalemia (high potassium) from kidney failure. Were you given a

cause of death?

Again,

I’m so sorry.

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Cheeky

Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:13 PM

Subject: Re: question

Hi Dan, I

KNOW I shouldnt ask you the following question, but, the answer you give won't

change anything anyways.

A little bit

of history here,,,my husband has had a defibrillator since 1996. In

2005 his kidneys were failing fast, and he was put on a kidney transplant

waiting list. We were able to find a live donor, and Tom was *this*

close to getting the transplant. On May 15, 2006, Tom woke up

early, told me he was very short of breath. I told him I would call

an ambulance because I did not want him walking out to our car. The

firemen got here first, followed a minute later by the ambulance. Tom was

put on a stretcher. On their way out the front door, I saw Tom's head

slump down. I could tell he was in cardiac arrest when he was being

put in the ambulance. I wasn't worried, " He's got a

defibillalltor. " 45 minutes later, after working on him in the

ambulance, I was told that he was dead. The ambulance never left my

house., for the 5 minute drive to the hospital.

(Big sigh of

hesitation here).........Would Tom have had a chance, had he been rushed to the

hospital? In the weeks to follow, I was able to get a run report,

(I think thats what it was called) with details of every procedure

they tried on Tom, with the words. 'no response' after each line.

Thanks,

Subject: RE:

question

Dan Mohrbacher <dan@...> wrote:

I have been waiting for the right post for me to say

hello to you folks in! When I read this one I knew it was it

…. Please know Stacie that I am not saying that the story I am

about to tell you has ANYTHING to do with your condition, it was just similar

complaints from an unexpected patient!

I have been a firefighter/paramedic/educator for 36

years now, and I have been called out on the same symptoms you describe

hundreds of times. The cause of the symptoms range from life threatening

to bordering on comic, as in the case I am about to describe. These

symptoms should NOT be taken lightly unless you know what triggers them and

know medically they are nothing to worry about. They can, as I mentioned,

be life threatening tachycardia’s that need to be cardioverted either

emergently or electively that night but most often they were from other

causes. I take it that these were two separate events both waking you

from sleep and self relieving??? That is comforting since it is not

the usual presentation for the life threatening causes, but should still be

evaluated!

What I primarily wanted to share was a memory of a

call your post reminded me of. I worked for City of San Diego and was

stationed at one of their fire stations. The engine Capt use to be a

paramedic and we VERY VERY good, we always loved having his back up on

calls. Not only technically good, but he was good with people too, no

medicine we carry is as effective as a calming touch or comforting word at the

right time.

It is 3:30 AM and we get a call for Chest Pain, pt

conscious. We arrive to find our off duty tonight Capt as the patient

… he gave a nervous laugh when I walked in and said it was OK, he was

fine ( yet he was pale and very sweaty …NOT good signs in the presence of

chest pain that he called in). But when he explained what happened it all

made sense….

He was sleeping and dreamed he was back in the

Navy. He said he was doing routine tasks that had nothing to do with

medicine when he sees his commanding officer coming at him with defib paddles

in hand!

He asked, “what are you doing?”

CO said “ I’m gonna shock you, your in

VFib!”

Our Capt protested he was not, he was fine and not

even feeling ill and noted that he was not even hooked up to a monitor!

CO said: “Don’t matter, your in VFib and

I’m gonna shock you!”

CO ripped his shirt off in one quick movement placed

the paddles on his chest, the defibrillator could be heard charging as he

screamed for the CO to STOP!!

He said he then woke up with crushing sub sterna chest

pain radiating down his arms, drenched in sweat and the heart pounding as you

described so he called 911 sure she was having a heart attack.

Within the 4 minutes it took us to get there she

said he fully woke up, all the symptoms were 85-90% gone, no chest pain no

palpitations, we hooked him up to the ECG and his rhythm was totally

normal.

We offered to take him in for a check up if he wanted

but said he had DEFINITLY run a few too many medical calls that week and he

should at least call in sick a couple shifts! He didn’t ( I knew he

would not, he loves his job as much as I did) and he was fine….did make

him rethink a few lifestyle issues he worked on so maybe it even did HIM some

good!

I hope, Stacie, that yours have just such an

ending. You do need to learn the cause and deal with that, just treating

the symptoms is usually bordering on useless if you don’t fix the cause

of the symptoms.

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of LIghtingpaw

Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 6:08 PM

Subject: question

has

anyone on here ever woken up in the middle of the night sweatign and

there heart pumping like ythey just ran a race ? the last two nights this has

been happening !!! just wondering if aanyone asle has had this happen to thim !

stacie

,24 shocking life ofr shocking people !!!!

__________ NOD32 2958 (20080318) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.

http://www.eset.com

[Guest guest]

This would have been a presumptive diagnosis on our part ….

Ooops, we don’t diagnosis so it would be a presumptive guess on our part.

Even in the ER they would need labs for the diagnosis. But with Tom’s

history it would be a very good guess and if we did not pick up on it the Dr we

were on the line with would have.

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Cheeky

Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 7:01 AM

Subject: Re: question

I just looked again at the run report, and the word hyperkalemia is

in there also. How would the paramedics know?

-----

Original Message -----

From: Baker

Sent: Tuesday, March 18,

2008 8:15 PM

Subject: RE:

question

I’m

so sorry to hear about your husband.

This is my

speculation as a nurse practitioner who works in the emergency department.

If the ICD

didn’t bring him back, he was most likely in asystole (flat line) unless

of course the ICD failed.

Advanced

Cardiac Life Support protocol is standardized between all prehospital and

hospital providers.. most likely there weren’t doing anything differently

than the emergency department personnel would do.

My guess

would be hyperkalemia (high potassium) from kidney failure. Were you given a

cause of death?

Again,

I’m so sorry.

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Cheeky

Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:13 PM

Subject: Re: question

Hi Dan, I

KNOW I shouldnt ask you the following question, but, the answer you give won't

change anything anyways.

A little bit

of history here,,,my husband has had a defibrillator since 1996. In

2005 his kidneys were failing fast, and he was put on a kidney transplant

waiting list. We were able to find a live donor, and Tom was *this*

close to getting the transplant. On May 15, 2006, Tom woke up

early, told me he was very short of breath. I told him I would call

an ambulance because I did not want him walking out to our car. The

firemen got here first, followed a minute later by the ambulance. Tom was

put on a stretcher. On their way out the front door, I saw Tom's head

slump down. I could tell he was in cardiac arrest when he was being

put in the ambulance. I wasn't worried, " He's got a

defibillalltor. " 45 minutes later, after working on him in the

ambulance, I was told that he was dead. The ambulance never left my

house., for the 5 minute drive to the hospital.

(Big sigh of

hesitation here).........Would Tom have had a chance, had he been rushed to the

hospital? In the weeks to follow, I was able to get a run report,

(I think thats what it was called) with details of every procedure

they tried on Tom, with the words. 'no response' after each line.

Thanks,

Subject: RE:

question

Dan Mohrbacher <dan@...> wrote:

I have been waiting for the right post for me to say

hello to you folks in! When I read this one I knew it was it

…. Please know Stacie that I am not saying that the story I am

about to tell you has ANYTHING to do with your condition, it was just similar

complaints from an unexpected patient!

I have been a firefighter/paramedic/educator for 36

years now, and I have been called out on the same symptoms you describe

hundreds of times. The cause of the symptoms range from life threatening

to bordering on comic, as in the case I am about to describe. These

symptoms should NOT be taken lightly unless you know what triggers them and

know medically they are nothing to worry about. They can, as I mentioned,

be life threatening tachycardia’s that need to be cardioverted either

emergently or electively that night but most often they were from other

causes. I take it that these were two separate events both waking you

from sleep and self relieving??? That is comforting since it is not

the usual presentation for the life threatening causes, but should still be

evaluated!

What I primarily wanted to share was a memory of a

call your post reminded me of. I worked for City of San Diego and was

stationed at one of their fire stations. The engine Capt use to be a

paramedic and we VERY VERY good, we always loved having his back up on

calls. Not only technically good, but he was good with people too, no

medicine we carry is as effective as a calming touch or comforting word at the

right time.

It is 3:30 AM and we get a call for Chest Pain, pt

conscious. We arrive to find our off duty tonight Capt as the patient

… he gave a nervous laugh when I walked in and said it was OK, he was

fine ( yet he was pale and very sweaty …NOT good signs in the presence of

chest pain that he called in). But when he explained what happened it all

made sense….

He was sleeping and dreamed he was back in the

Navy. He said he was doing routine tasks that had nothing to do with

medicine when he sees his commanding officer coming at him with defib paddles

in hand!

He asked, “what are you doing?”

CO said “ I’m gonna shock you, your in

VFib!”

Our Capt protested he was not, he was fine and not

even feeling ill and noted that he was not even hooked up to a monitor!

CO said: “Don’t matter, your in VFib and

I’m gonna shock you!”

CO ripped his shirt off in one quick movement placed

the paddles on his chest, the defibrillator could be heard charging as he

screamed for the CO to STOP!!

He said he then woke up with crushing sub sterna chest

pain radiating down his arms, drenched in sweat and the heart pounding as you

described so he called 911 sure she was having a heart attack.

Within the 4 minutes it took us to get there she

said he fully woke up, all the symptoms were 85-90% gone, no chest pain no

palpitations, we hooked him up to the ECG and his rhythm was totally

normal.

We offered to take him in for a check up if he wanted

but said he had DEFINITLY run a few too many medical calls that week and he

should at least call in sick a couple shifts! He didn’t ( I knew he

would not, he loves his job as much as I did) and he was fine….did make

him rethink a few lifestyle issues he worked on so maybe it even did HIM some

good!

I hope, Stacie, that yours have just such an

ending. You do need to learn the cause and deal with that, just treating

the symptoms is usually bordering on useless if you don’t fix the cause

of the symptoms.

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of LIghtingpaw

Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 6:08 PM

Subject: question

has

anyone on here ever woken up in the middle of the night sweatign and

there heart pumping like ythey just ran a race ? the last two nights this has

been happening !!! just wondering if aanyone asle has had this happen to thim !

stacie

,24 shocking life ofr shocking people !!!!

__________ NOD32 2958 (20080318) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.

http://www.eset.com

[Guest guest]

Thank you, .

question> > has anyone on here ever woken up in the> middle of the night sweatign and there heart> pumping === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________Never miss a thing. Make your home page. http://www./r/hs------------------------------------Be sure to visit and use other ZapLife.org services:The ZapperBBS at http://zaplife.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=11 - Email list forum at /2 - Email delivery of the Zapper Newsletter at 2/3 - Email list forum for those involved in ICD litigation at 3/ZapChat - Real time online support group (Thursdays 8PM EST) at http://www.zaplife.org/chat.htmlZapFAQs - A glossary of ICD/arrhythmia terms and abbreviations at http://www.zaplife.org/zap4.htmThe ZAPPER Home page at http://www.zaplife.org/

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message ----From: Cheeky

>I just looked at the run report again,

> and the word asystole is in there several times.

:

My wife calls me that more than several times each day. I didn't know itr was a cardiolgist's word. I thought it belonged to the proctologists.

From California where I feel sorry for proctologists. They're the only medical doctors that have to start at the bottom, are the butt of hospital humor and have to put up with more old farts than geriontologists.

mahanaze

[Guest guest]

Bill, thank you so much for the LAUGHS!

Sydney

Re: question

----- Original Message ----From: Cheeky

>I just looked at the run report again,

> and the word asystole is in there several times.

:

My wife calls me that more than several times each day. I didn't know itr was a cardiolgist's word. I thought it belonged to the proctologists.

From California where I feel sorry for proctologists. They're the only medical doctors that have to start at the bottom, are the butt of hospital humor and have to put up with more old farts than geriontologists.

mahanaze

[Guest guest]

Never heard of such a thing and Micah has ear issues.? He has been going to ENT

every three months since birth.? If you had asked me last week I would have

asked my doctor when he went in.

Loree

Has anyone even heard of this?

Question

Ok, here's another weird thing with Lyssa that I don't understand. At Disney, we

ended up in the ER. Lys had swollen glands, congestion and an acute ear

infection (rt ear). After 4 medications and a couple days she was feeling much

better.

Yesterday we went to a new ENT (ours disappeared off the face of the planet, as

both of his phones have been disconnected). This Dr. said her rt ear was not

infected any more, but had fluid. Then he says did the other Dr. tell us that

her left ear is abnormal? I say no. He says she has negative pressure that is

pulling her eardrum down (I think he said into the canal). There is no way to

repair it, but hopefully we can stop it. She is to stay on the Flonase (nasal

spray) to hopefully equalize the pressure and stop it from progressing. We go

back in a month. If it doesn't stop it, he'll recommend tubes. Has anyone even

heard of this? I don't know if it's causing her pain, (she never complains of

pain) or what?? Sue & Alyssa

[Guest guest]

I've never heard of this either.... I'll try and remember to ask our ENT

when we see him on the 9th.... that sounds strange. We've done the

tubes many times, and they were fine... if that's the answer for Alyssa,

at least it's an answer :-) Hopefully it will be one of those things

that goes away on it's own.

, mom to (13), (11 DS), and Sammy (9)

Loree5@... wrote:

>

> Never heard of such a thing and Micah has ear issues.? He has been

> going to ENT every three months since birth.? If you had asked me last

> week I would have asked my doctor when he went in.

>

> Loree

>

> Has anyone even heard of this?

>

> Question

>

> Ok, here's another weird thing with Lyssa that I don't understand. At

> Disney, we ended up in the ER. Lys had swollen glands, congestion and

> an acute ear infection (rt ear). After 4 medications and a couple days

> she was feeling much better.

>

> Yesterday we went to a new ENT (ours disappeared off the face of the

> planet, as both of his phones have been disconnected). This Dr. said

> her rt ear was not infected any more, but had fluid. Then he says did

> the other Dr. tell us that her left ear is abnormal? I say no. He says

> she has negative pressure that is pulling her eardrum down (I think he

> said into the canal). There is no way to repair it, but hopefully we

> can stop it. She is to stay on the Flonase (nasal spray) to hopefully

> equalize the pressure and stop it from progressing. We go back in a

> month. If it doesn't stop it, he'll recommend tubes. Has anyone even

> heard of this? I don't know if it's causing her pain, (she never

> complains of pain) or what?? Sue & Alyssa

>

>

[Guest guest]

nurse costs dr, rep does not. called cost cutting. only thing that gets me if service is free why should we have to pay.

GOT TO SEE UTAH

Re: Question

I have had the same cardiology group for almost twelve years. They have beren outstanding in all things medical and administrative.

There is not complaint whatsoever from me regarding what they have done or how they did things.

Yesterday I had a scheduled reading there, and the wife and I drove the fifty miles. My usual contact, a cardiac nurse practioner was not

there. Instead I had a representative from Guidant run the checks. No biggie. Guidant reps have been called in before on particular

issues, but yesterday was differenct. I wa told that my visits now would be handled by the guidant rep. I'm not sure that is something I

want. My cardio doc will still be in charge, but I wonder about the guidant person's loyalty and commitment when it is a choice between

patient and company interests. I'm going to be calling my cardio group today to get a better understanding. anyone here have similar

experiences?

From California where when a cardiac patient gets fresh with his nurse and she hits him over the head with a defibrillator, he gets a guy

dent.

Bill

Court Reporting Free information on court reporter careers, $100 per hour potential. Click Now! Click Here For More Information

[Guest guest]

I understand that, but such does nott seem the case here. My RN/NP took a really good job at the hospital across the street, and I think this is more a stuctural change because the cardio group has always compartmentalized their medical involvements with patients. it may also have something to do with the recent problem with the Medtronic leads. If a manufacturer's rep is doing th testing, the burden of the liability, while not completely lost, does shift mostly to the rep and her/his company. It's a litiginous world out there.

From California where ICD's are hard-wired to the patient's heart. they do this by putting Viagra on the leads.

Bill

From: PAUL BROWN <pb481@...> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:44:58 AMSubject: Re: Question

nurse costs dr, rep does not. called cost cutting. only thing that gets me if service is free why should we have to pay.GOT TO SEE UTAH Re: QuestionI have had the same cardiology group for almost twelve years. They have beren outstanding in all things medical and administrative. There is not complaint whatsoever from me regarding what they have done or how they did things.Yesterday I had a scheduled reading there, and the wife and I drove the fifty miles. My usual contact, a cardiac nurse practioner was not there. Instead I had a representative from Guidant run the checks. No biggie. Guidant reps have been called in before on particular issues, but yesterday was differenct. I wa told that my

visits now would be handled by the guidant rep. I'm not sure that is something I want. My cardio doc will still be in charge, but I wonder about the guidant person's loyalty and commitment when it is a choice between patient and company interests. I'm going to be calling my cardio group today to get a better understanding. anyone here have similar experiences?From California where when a cardiac patient gets fresh with his nurse and she hits him over the head with a defibrillator, he gets a guy dent.Bill

Court Reporting

Free information on court reporter careers, $100 per hour potential. Click Now!

Click Here For More Information

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I'm aware that some of us like to describe U.S. society as being

particularly litigious, and that's too complex a topic to take on here. But

on what basis do you believe that potential liability for product failure

and/or medical malpractice is shifted by having a product rep instead of a

doctor's assistant perform an ICD interrogation? Is there a law you're

familiar with that would explain this? I never thought about it before.

Thanks,

Re: Question

I have had the same cardiology group for almost twelve years. They have

beren outstanding in all things medical and administrative.

There is not complaint whatsoever from me regarding what they have done or

how they did things.

Yesterday I had a scheduled reading there, and the wife and I drove the

fifty miles. My usual contact, a cardiac nurse practioner was not

there. Instead I had a representative from Guidant run the checks. No

biggie. Guidant reps have been called in before on particular

issues, but yesterday was differenct. I wa told that my visits now would be

handled by the guidant rep. I'm not sure that is something I

want. My cardio doc will still be in charge, but I wonder about the guidant

person's loyalty and commitment when it is a choice between

patient and company interests. I'm going to be calling my cardio group today

to get a better understanding. anyone here have similar

experiences?

From California where when a cardiac patient gets fresh with his nurse and

she hits him over the head with a defibrillator, he gets a guy

dent.

Bill

________________________________

Court Reporting

Free information on court reporter careers, $100 per hour potential. Click

Now!

Click Here For More Information

[Guest guest]

If there is a mechanical problem that the med staff misses for whatever reason, they may become responsible for not seeing it. The manufacturer's rep is certified as knowing the device and can be completely responsible within that area of expertise. It is similar, but more so, than a certified Ford mechanic at a Ford dealership bing held to a higher standard of diagnostical expertise than a mechanic at the local garage who is licensed as competent.

JMO

From California where Ford engines and ICD's are alike because sometimes there is a need to get the lead out.

Bill

From: Yardbird <yardbird@...> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:46:12 AMSubject: Re: QuestionHi,I'm aware that some of us like to describe U.S. society as being particularly litigious, and that's too complex a topic to take on here. But on what basis do you believe that potential liability for product failure and/or medical malpractice is shifted by having a product rep instead of a doctor's assistant perform an ICD interrogation? Is there a law you're familiar with that would explain this? I never thought about it before.Thanks, Re: QuestionI have had the same cardiology group for almost twelve years. They have beren outstanding in all things medical and administrative.There is not complaint whatsoever from me regarding what they have done or how they did things.Yesterday I had a scheduled reading there, and the wife and I drove the fifty miles. My usual contact, a cardiac nurse practioner was notthere. Instead I had a representative from Guidant run the checks. No biggie. Guidant reps have been called in before on particularissues, but yesterday was differenct. I wa told that my visits now would be handled by the guidant rep. I'm not sure that is something Iwant. My cardio doc will still be in charge, but I wonder about the guidant person's loyalty and commitment when it is a choice betweenpatient and company interests.

I'm going to be calling my cardio group today to get a better understanding. anyone here have similarexperiences?From California where when a cardiac patient gets fresh with his nurse and she hits him over the head with a defibrillator, he gets a guydent.Bill________________________________ Court ReportingFree information on court reporter careers, $100 per hour potential. Click Now!Click Here For More Information------------------------------------Be sure to visit and use other ZapLife.org services:The ZapperBBS at http://zaplife.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=11 - Email list forum at /2 - Email delivery of the Zapper Newsletter at 2/3 - Email list forum for those involved in ICD litigation at 3/ZapChat - Real time online support group (Thursdays 8PM EST) at http://www.zaplife.org/chat.htmlZapFAQs - A glossary of ICD/arrhythmia terms and abbreviations at http://www.zaplife.org/zap4.htmThe ZAPPER Home page at http://www.zaplife.org/

[Guest guest]

hi,

this sounds sensible. Can you tell me where the pertinent case law or the

regulations can be found for reference? Thanks. No offense, but when anyone

tells me what a law or regulation is, I like to be referred to the source

rather than accept the conversational statement alone. Thanks for

understanding.

Re: Question

I have had the same cardiology group for almost twelve years. They have

beren outstanding in all things medical and administrative.

There is not complaint whatsoever from me regarding what they have done or

how they did things.

Yesterday I had a scheduled reading there, and the wife and I drove the

fifty miles. My usual contact, a cardiac nurse practioner was not

there. Instead I had a representative from Guidant run the checks. No

biggie. Guidant reps have been called in before on particular

issues, but yesterday was differenct. I wa told that my visits now would be

handled by the guidant rep. I'm not sure that is something I

want. My cardio doc will still be in charge, but I wonder about the guidant

person's loyalty and commitment when it is a choice between

patient and company interests. I'm going to be calling my cardio group today

to get a better understanding. anyone here have similar

experiences?

From California where when a cardiac patient gets fresh with his nurse and

she hits him over the head with a defibrillator, he gets a guy

dent.

Bill

________________________________

Court Reporting

Free information on court reporter careers, $100 per hour potential. Click

Now!

Click Here For More Information

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit and use other ZapLife.org services:

The ZapperBBS at

http://zaplife.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=1

1 - Email list forum at

/

2 - Email delivery of the Zapper Newsletter at

2/

3 - Email list forum for those involved in ICD litigation at

3/

ZapChat - Real time online support group (Thursdays 8PM EST) at

http://www.zaplife.org/chat.html

ZapFAQs - A glossary of ICD/arrhythmia terms and abbreviations at

http://www.zaplife.org/zap4.htm

The ZAPPER Home page at

http://www.zaplife.org/

[Guest guest]

From: Yardbird

this sounds sensible.

Now there's a phrase directed at me that

I don't hear very often at home from the wife.

Can you tell me where the pertinent case law

or the regulations can be found for reference?

I am not a lawyer, but I am sixty-seven years old

and have taken more than a few graduate and

undergraduate classes in constitutional law,

education law and business law to have acquired

some very bsic knowledge about the basics of the

landscape upon which we all live and function. I

think that is true for all adults to very varying degree.

We do not challenge the source of everything we are

told about, whether it be medical or legal or something

else. We have all acquired certain understandings to

which we do not or cannot cite a verifying source on

the spot. Most often we use our knowledge and

understanding in informal conversations where the

reader or listener is not expected to consider such as

anything beyond pesonal comments and opinions.

That is why my posting ended with JMO. I thought

you knew that meant Just My Opinion.

Thanks.

You're welcome.

No offense,

None taken. Why should I?

but when anyone tells me what a law or regulation is,

I like to be referred to the source rather than accept

the conversational statement alone.

I do not believe that anyone, certainly not me, has been

giving you any legal or medical advice, and I doubt if someone were to tell you that the speed limit on the Interstate was 65 or that the sales tax in New York is eight percent (or whatever it happens to be now), you would be making the same request. Most often accepting a conversational statement is just fine and its veracity can be challenged by doing a little homework on our own. When someone's statement is not entwined in our own lives and self-interests, then it really doesn't make much of a difference if a specific, technical or anecdotal source is provided.If you have a particular interest in the subject and need some serious legal references, I would suggest Googling it, and if that does not satisfy your needs, perhaps seeing an attorney would solve your problem.

Thanks for understanding.

Likewise thank you for understanding my response.

JMO

From California where of all the sources. I like Hollandaise source the best because I'm usually in Dutch with someone.

Bill

[Guest guest]

i also have a medtronic rep now see me for my interrogations.......i have one of the recalled leads, wonder if that's why. never thought about it before now.

evie

Re: Question

Hi,

I'm aware that some of us like to describe U.S. society as being

particularly litigious, and that's too complex a topic to take on here. But

on what basis do you believe that potential liability for product failure

and/or medical malpractice is shifted by having a product rep instead of a

doctor's assistant perform an ICD interrogation? Is there a law you're

familiar with that would explain this? I never thought about it before.

Thanks,

Re: Question

I have had the same cardiology group for almost twelve years. They have

beren outstanding in all things medical and administrative.

There is not complaint whatsoever from me regarding what they have done or

how they did things.

Yesterday I had a scheduled reading there, and the wife and I drove the

fifty miles. My usual contact, a cardiac nurse practioner was not

there. Instead I had a representative from Guidant run the checks. No

biggie. Guidant reps have been called in before on particular

issues, but yesterday was differenct. I wa told that my visits now would be

handled by the guidant rep. I'm not sure that is something I

want. My cardio doc will still be in charge, but I wonder about the guidant

person's loyalty and commitment when it is a choice between

patient and company interests. I'm going to be calling my cardio group today

to get a better understanding. anyone here have similar

experiences?

From California where when a cardiac patient gets fresh with his nurse and

she hits him over the head with a defibrillator, he gets a guy

dent.

Bill

________________________________

Court Reporting

Free information on court reporter careers, $100 per hour potential. Click

Now!

Click Here For More Information

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[Guest guest]

I think what you will find, by asking you drs. they will say the rep knows more about the product and settings than he or she does. This is

my case. I have a gudiant unit, its been checked by both the medtronic rep and boston scienctific reps.

GOT TO SEE UTAH

Re: Question

Hi,

I'm aware that some of us like to describe U.S. society as being

particularly litigious, and that's too complex a topic to take on here. But

on what basis do you believe that potential liability for product failure

and/or medical malpractice is shifted by having a product rep instead of a

doctor's assistant perform an ICD interrogation? Is there a law you're

familiar with that would explain this? I never thought about it before.

Thanks,

Re: Question

I have had the same cardiology group for almost twelve years. They have

beren outstanding in all things medical and administrative.

There is not complaint whatsoever from me regarding what they have done or

how they did things.

Yesterday I had a scheduled reading there, and the wife and I drove the

fifty miles. My usual contact, a cardiac nurse practioner was not

there. Instead I had a representative from Guidant run the checks. No

biggie. Guidant reps have been called in before on particular

issues, but yesterday was differenct. I wa told that my visits now would be

handled by the guidant rep. I'm not sure that is something I

want. My cardio doc will still be in charge, but I wonder about the guidant

person's loyalty and commitment when it is a choice between

patient and company interests. I'm going to be calling my cardio group today

to get a better understanding. anyone here have similar

experiences?

From California where when a cardiac patient gets fresh with his nurse and

she hits him over the head with a defibrillator, he gets a guy

dent.

Bill

________________________________

Court Reporting

Free information on court reporter careers, $100 per hour potential. Click

Now!

Click Here For More Information

Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar!

Medical Transcription Training Click here to double your salary by becoming a medical transcriber. Click Here For More Information

[Guest guest]

Bill,

Please spare me the lecture. I'm 65 myself and not uneducated or rude. If

you don't know, exactly, but believe you're making a well-informed

conjecture, just say so. No worries.

Re: Question

________________________________

From: Yardbird

this sounds sensible.

Now there's a phrase directed at me that

I don't hear very often at home from the wife.

Can you tell me where the pertinent case law

or the regulations can be found for reference?

I am not a lawyer, but I am sixty-seven years old

and have taken more than a few graduate and

undergraduate classes in constitutional law,

education law and business law to have acquired

some very bsic knowledge about the basics of the

landscape upon which we all live and function. I

think that is true for all adults to very varying degree.

We do not challenge the source of everything we are

told about, whether it be medical or legal or something

else. We have all acquired certain understandings to

which we do not or cannot cite a verifying source on

the spot. Most often we use our knowledge and

understanding in informal conversations where the

reader or listener is not expected to consider such as

anything beyond pesonal comments and opinions.

That is why my posting ended with JMO. I thought

you knew that meant Just My Opinion.

Thanks.

You're welcome.

No offense,

None taken. Why should I?

but when anyone tells me what a law or regulation is,

I like to be referred to the source rather than accept

the conversational statement alone.

I do not believe that anyone, certainly not me, has been

giving you any legal or medical advice, and I doubt if someone were to tell

you that the speed limit on the Interstate was 65 or that the sales tax in

New York is eight percent (or whatever it happens to be now), you would be

making the same request. Most often accepting a conversational statement is

just fine and its veracity can be challenged by doing a little homework on

our own. When someone's statement is not entwined in our own lives and

self-interests, then it really doesn't make much of a difference if a

specific, technical or anecdotal source is provided.If you have a particular

interest in the subject and need some serious legal references, I would

suggest Googling it, and if that does not satisfy your needs, perhaps seeing

an attorney would solve your problem.

Thanks for understanding.

Likewise thank you for understanding my response.

JMO

From California where of all the sources. I like Hollandaise source the best

because I'm usually in Dutch with someone.

Bill

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill-

I have always had my device checks done by the manufacturer's rep.

The Dr usually pops his head in at the end to say Hi but other than that I only

see the rep.

I really like talking to the rep as she is very knowledgeable and seems to know

more when it comes to detailed questions. She was present when my device was

implanted as well.

I have a St Jude Medical ICD.

From Illinois where our governors make our license plates.

Candi

PS- I always love reading your jokes :-)

>

> I have had the same cardiology group for almost twelve years.  They have beren

outstanding in all things medical and administrative.  There is not complaint

whatsoever from me regarding what they have done or how they did things.

>

> Yesterday I had a scheduled reading there, and the wife and I drove the fifty

miles.  My usual contact, a cardiac nurse practioner was not there.  Instead I

had a representative from Guidant run the checks.  No biggie.  Guidant reps have

been called in before on particular issues, but yesterday was differenct.  I wa

told that my visits now would be handled by the guidant rep.  I'm not sure that

is something I want.  My cardio doc will still be in charge, but I wonder about

the guidant person's loyalty and commitment when it is a choice between patient

and company interests.  I'm going to be calling my cardio group today to get a

better understanding.  anyone here have similar experiences?

>

> From California where when a cardiac patient gets fresh with his nurse and she

hits him over the head with a defibrillator, he gets a guy dent.

>

> Bill

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill, I appreciate your email more than you will ever know, you sure have a

lot more tact than I do; since I got sick I have found it to be extremely

difficult to continue to be polite and respectful with people who drive me nuts,

as I did in my entire professional career. These days the first thing that makes

me realize my frustration when I know when someone is getting to me, is when I

find myself gritting my teeth and ready to blow my top when an aggravating

individual happens in my path. This email I am sending you is to let you know

that I look for your emails all the time because your humour and love of life

always brightens my day, and when you mention your grandkids it does my heart

good. I don't see my grandkids nearly enough. Once again, I've written a long

email, Zaplife and BBS is such a part of my family and goes a long way to fill

the void made when I had my stroke and now my heart issues. Sudden changes in

life are not easy to deal with, especially when you are alone.

Take care. from Lynda , who also lives on the west coast, but a long long way

north of LA.

>

> Bill,

>

> Please spare me the lecture. I'm 65 myself and not uneducated or rude. If

> you don't know, exactly, but believe you're making a well-informed

> conjecture, just say so. No worries.

> Re: Question

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: Yardbird

>

> this sounds sensible.

> Now there's a phrase directed at me that

> I don't hear very often at home from the wife.

> Can you tell me where the pertinent case law

> or the regulations can be found for reference?

> I am not a lawyer, but I am sixty-seven years old

> and have taken more than a few graduate and

> undergraduate classes in constitutional law,

> education law and business law to have acquired

> some very bsic knowledge about the basics of the

> landscape upon which we all live and function. I

> think that is true for all adults to very varying degree.

> We do not challenge the source of everything we are

> told about, whether it be medical or legal or something

> else. We have all acquired certain understandings to

> which we do not or cannot cite a verifying source on

> the spot. Most often we use our knowledge and

> understanding in informal conversations where the

> reader or listener is not expected to consider such as

> anything beyond pesonal comments and opinions.

> That is why my posting ended with JMO. I thought

> you knew that meant Just My Opinion.

> Thanks.

> You're welcome.

> No offense,

> None taken. Why should I?

> but when anyone tells me what a law or regulation is,

> I like to be referred to the source rather than accept

> the conversational statement alone.

> I do not believe that anyone, certainly not me, has been

> giving you any legal or medical advice, and I doubt if someone were to tell

> you that the speed limit on the Interstate was 65 or that the sales tax in

> New York is eight percent (or whatever it happens to be now), you would be

> making the same request. Most often accepting a conversational statement is

> just fine and its veracity can be challenged by doing a little homework on

> our own. When someone's statement is not entwined in our own lives and

> self-interests, then it really doesn't make much of a difference if a

> specific, technical or anecdotal source is provided.If you have a particular

> interest in the subject and need some serious legal references, I would

> suggest Googling it, and if that does not satisfy your needs, perhaps seeing

> an attorney would solve your problem.

> Thanks for understanding.

> Likewise thank you for understanding my response.

>

> JMO

>

> From California where of all the sources. I like Hollandaise source the best

> because I'm usually in Dutch with someone.

>

> Bill

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Bill, I ditto Lynda's comments.Having retired from the pay-for-pray business, my patience with everything dried up. You know, the old use-it-or-lose-it adage. So it is refreshing to encounter someone with a well-developed sense of humor. You remind me not to take myself so seriously.GrumpyFrom: thenumberoneleming <leming@...>Subject: Re: Question Date: Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 9:22 PM

Hi Bill, I appreciate your email more than you will ever know, you sure have a lot more tact than I do; since I got sick I have found it to be extremely difficult to continue to be polite and respectful with people who drive me nuts, as I did in my entire professional career. These days the first thing that makes me realize my frustration when I know when someone is getting to me, is when I find myself gritting my teeth and ready to blow my top when an aggravating individual happens in my path. This email I am sending you is to let you know that I look for your emails all the time because your humour and love of life always brightens my day, and when you mention your grandkids it does my heart good. I don't see my grandkids nearly enough. Once again, I've written a long email, Zaplife and BBS is such a part of my family and goes a long way to fill the void made when I had my stroke and now my heart issues. Sudden changes in life are not

easy to deal with, especially when you are alone.

Take care. from Lynda , who also lives on the west coast, but a long long way north of LA.

>

> Bill,

>

> Please spare me the lecture. I'm 65 myself and not uneducated or rude. If

> you don't know, exactly, but believe you're making a well-informed

> conjecture, just say so. No worries.

> Re: Question

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

>

> From: Yardbird

>

> this sounds sensible.

> Now there's a phrase directed at me that

> I don't hear very often at home from the wife.

> Can you tell me where the pertinent case law

> or the regulations can be found for reference?

> I am not a lawyer, but I am sixty-seven years old

> and have taken more than a few graduate and

> undergraduate classes in constitutional law,

> education law and business law to have acquired

> some very bsic knowledge about the basics of the

> landscape upon which we all live and function. I

> think that is true for all adults to very varying degree.

> We do not challenge the source of everything we are

> told about, whether it be medical or legal or something

> else. We have all acquired certain understandings to

> which we do not or cannot cite a verifying source on

> the spot. Most often we use our knowledge and

> understanding in informal conversations where the

> reader or listener is not expected to consider such as

> anything beyond pesonal comments and opinions.

> That is why my posting ended with JMO. I thought

> you knew that meant Just My Opinion.

> Thanks.

> You're welcome.

> No offense,

> None taken. Why should I?

> but when anyone tells me what a law or regulation is,

> I like to be referred to the source rather than accept

> the conversational statement alone.

> I do not believe that anyone, certainly not me, has been

> giving you any legal or medical advice, and I doubt if someone were to tell

> you that the speed limit on the Interstate was 65 or that the sales tax in

> New York is eight percent (or whatever it happens to be now), you would be

> making the same request. Most often accepting a conversational statement is

> just fine and its veracity can be challenged by doing a little homework on

> our own. When someone's statement is not entwined in our own lives and

> self-interests, then it really doesn't make much of a difference if a

> specific, technical or anecdotal source is provided.If you have a particular

> interest in the subject and need some serious legal references, I would

> suggest Googling it, and if that does not satisfy your needs, perhaps seeing

> an attorney would solve your problem.

> Thanks for understanding.

> Likewise thank you for understanding my response.

>

> JMO

>

> From California where of all the sources. I like Hollandaise source the best

> because I'm usually in Dutch with someone.

>

> Bill

>

[Guest guest]

We are facing this surgery this summer with our 7 yr old who has .

On the list serv for that there are MANY who have already had the surgery and

have WEEKS of sore throats and kids who won't eat.

A friend at church had her kids done during spring break and they missed an

extra week of school.

[Guest guest]

I remember when I had my tonsils removed and my throat was so sore that it

hurt like the dickens to swallow. I suggest starting her on cracked ice and

work up from there.

granny

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Cheryl TRAVIS

<bossymom1969@...>wrote:

>

>

> A friend of mine's little girl (she is three) had to have her

> tonsils/adnoids removed and while they were at it , they put the tubes in

> her ears. She has been out of the hospital now a week and Kim is having a

> really hard time to get Gracie to eat or even drink! Any ideas, Poor Kim is

> at her wits end!

>

> http://www.usgennet.org/usa/ok/county/muskogee/cemeteries/ceml_list.htm

>

>

>

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mysurnameresearches/sanbernard\

ino.htm

>

> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~unioniowa/

>

>

[Guest guest]

Like Granny I can remember when I had my tonsils removed at 5yo. I couldn't

talk for a week, which the family probably thought was good. Anyway at this

stage I would suggest loads of TLC, I can remember the pampering and

anything that the child can swallow, even if she is living on ice-cream and

jelly for the next week. Ice-cream is milk and milk is a food, jelly is

water. Though neither is a good alternative to healthy eating for the long

term, in the short term while her throat heals she will survive.

Keep smiling

Jan, mother of Trent 25yo w/DS from the LandDownUnder

Re: Question

I remember when I had my tonsils removed and my throat was so sore that it

hurt like the dickens to swallow. I suggest starting her on cracked ice and

work up from there.

granny

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Cheryl TRAVIS

<bossymom1969@...>wrote:

>

>

> A friend of mine's little girl (she is three) had to have her

> tonsils/adnoids removed and while they were at it , they put the tubes in

> her ears. She has been out of the hospital now a week and Kim is having a

> really hard time to get Gracie to eat or even drink! Any ideas, Poor Kim

is

> at her wits end!

>

> http://www.usgennet.org/usa/ok/county/muskogee/cemeteries/ceml_list.htm

>

>

>

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mysurnameresearches/sanber

nardino.htm

>

> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~unioniowa/

>

>