Re: Condolances and questions

[Guest guest]

Water kefir grains convert sugar into lactic acid, alcohol and acetic acid.

The amount of alcohol produced is quite small, but it can be noticeable.

Depending on how long you culture it, there may be some sugar left. You can

tell by the taste. If it has a sweet taste, there is sugar.

Re: Frequent off-topic discussions?

Leo,

You are on moderation. What has what you just said got to do with kefir?

Nothing. You are one of those with no respect for my simple posting

guidelines. You make more work for me.

Thanks,

Marilyn

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 1:26 PM, Leo Girardi <leo.girardi@...> wrote:

> Kenny buddy,

>

> Get a threaded news reader so you can just delete a threat(topic) if you

> don't like it.

>

> Also, do you often go to a family bbq and tell everyone you hate what they

> are cooking? That's pretty much what you just did " hi everyone, I don't

> like what you're talking about " .

>

> I also don't want to waste my time reading posts from newbies that just

> whine. Oh, wait, I'll just delete your post once I'm done making my

> point.

>

> Point taken?

>

> Leo

>

>

> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 6:46 AM, Grome <kengrome@...> wrote:

>

> > Hello all,

> >

> > I joined this group yesterday to learn about kefir, and

> > perhaps to find someone to send me some starter milk grains.

> > But now I'm not so sure I have the time to be here ...

> >

> > This morning I found 30+ posts in my inbox!

> >

> > I appreciate the fact that this group is very active, but at

> > the same time I am not in any way interested in Dr. Oz or

> > body odor or parents vaccinating kids or pertussis epidemics

> > or microwave ovens or ddt exposure.

> >

> > How frequently do these off-topic discussions go on here? Is

> > the drift from on-topic kefir to all these off-topic issues a

> > common occurrence? Or is this an unusual situation for this

> > group?

> >

> > I have no desire to disrupt the natural behavior of this

> > group so if " this is how it is " on a regular basis do you

> > think I should just ask if there's anyone who might send me

> > some milk grains to get started with, and then unsubscribe?

> >

> > For the time being I just want to learn about kefir and get

> > started -- without disturbing anyone in this group, and

> > without going through so many posts in order to find a tidbit

> > of milk kefir information now and then.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> > Grome

> > Biloxi, Mississippi

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Rodger,

Thanks,

and I'm not sure on water kefir. I do know kombucha produces lactic acid,

some acetic acid and a little alcohol. I'm going to start taking specific

gravity reading to figure out more soon.

How much different is water kefir from kombucha?

And for those of you that asked, no Marilyn is not the Soros of the

kefir world. I think she gave me great latitude before she smacked my

wrist, and her impending world takeover through kefir.

:-)

Leo

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 1:07 PM, B <rogerbird2@...> wrote:

>

> Leo,

>

> I have gotten banned twice from the same email forum, and it was a forum

> devoted to my belief system which is central to my existence. So don't

> feel bad if you get put on moderation. The belief system is still central

> to my existence, but the forum, I guess, isn't and won't be for a while.

>

> I will include a real question that I have so I won't get put on

> moderation. (:->) If water kefir eats sugar, what does it turn the

> sugar into? Not alcohol I trust. And if it converts sugar into something

> innocuous or beneficially, wouldn't drinking those microbes help to protect

> one from sugar (I just had a bunch of brownie batter, very paleo since it

> was raw. [That would be my attempt at humor.])?

>

> Those were not statements. They were questions to the entire group.

>

>

> Colorado Springs, still here but wounded

>

>

>

> From: marilynjarz@...

> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 13:28:59 -0400

> Subject: Re: Frequent off-topic discussions?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Leo,

>

>

>

> You are on moderation. What has what you just said got to do with kefir?

>

> Nothing. You are one of those with no respect for my simple posting

>

> guidelines. You make more work for me.

>

>

>

> Thanks,

>

> Marilyn

>

>

>

> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 1:26 PM, Leo Girardi <leo.girardi@...>

> wrote:

>

>

>

> > Kenny buddy,

>

> >

>

> > Get a threaded news reader so you can just delete a threat(topic) if you

>

> > don't like it.

>

> >

>

> > Also, do you often go to a family bbq and tell everyone you hate what

> they

>

> > are cooking? That's pretty much what you just did " hi everyone, I don't

>

> > like what you're talking about " .

>

> >

>

> > I also don't want to waste my time reading posts from newbies that just

>

> > whine. Oh, wait, I'll just delete your post once I'm done making my

> point.

>

> >

>

> > Point taken?

>

> >

>

> > Leo

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 6:46 AM, Grome <kengrome@...>

> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > > Hello all,

>

> > >

>

> > > I joined this group yesterday to learn about kefir, and

>

> > > perhaps to find someone to send me some starter milk grains.

>

> > > But now I'm not so sure I have the time to be here ...

>

> > >

>

> > > This morning I found 30+ posts in my inbox!

>

> > >

>

> > > I appreciate the fact that this group is very active, but at

>

> > > the same time I am not in any way interested in Dr. Oz or

>

> > > body odor or parents vaccinating kids or pertussis epidemics

>

> > > or microwave ovens or ddt exposure.

>

> > >

>

> > > How frequently do these off-topic discussions go on here? Is

>

> > > the drift from on-topic kefir to all these off-topic issues a

>

> > > common occurrence? Or is this an unusual situation for this

>

> > > group?

>

> > >

>

> > > I have no desire to disrupt the natural behavior of this

>

> > > group so if " this is how it is " on a regular basis do you

>

> > > think I should just ask if there's anyone who might send me

>

> > > some milk grains to get started with, and then unsubscribe?

>

> > >

>

> > > For the time being I just want to learn about kefir and get

>

> > > started -- without disturbing anyone in this group, and

>

> > > without going through so many posts in order to find a tidbit

>

> > > of milk kefir information now and then.

>

> > >

>

> > > Sincerely,

>

> > > Grome

>

> > > Biloxi, Mississippi

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > ------------------------------------

>

> > >

>

> > >

[Guest guest]

The sugar turns into more water grains. Just rearranges itself into water

grains. That's my take when they are growing at 120% in 48 hours. Plus the

other answers are also correct. Various acids that are healthy.

Marilyn

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:07 PM, B <rogerbird2@...> wrote:

>

> Leo,

>

> I have gotten banned twice from the same email forum, and it was a forum

> devoted to my belief system which is central to my existence. So don't

> feel bad if you get put on moderation. The belief system is still central

> to my existence, but the forum, I guess, isn't and won't be for a while.

>

> I will include a real question that I have so I won't get put on

> moderation. (:->) If water kefir eats sugar, what does it turn the

> sugar into? Not alcohol I trust. And if it converts sugar into something

> innocuous or beneficially, wouldn't drinking those microbes help to protect

> one from sugar (I just had a bunch of brownie batter, very paleo since it

> was raw. [That would be my attempt at humor.])?

>

> Those were not statements. They were questions to the entire group.

>

>

> Colorado Springs, still here but wounded

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Actually, alcohol is one of the components in Water Kefir. According to a couple

of sources I checked it can contain anywhere from 1 to 3 percent alcohol.

Lee Anne, Pennsylvania

>

> >

> > Leo,

> >

> > I have gotten banned twice from the same email forum, and it was a forum

> > devoted to my belief system which is central to my existence. So don't

> > feel bad if you get put on moderation. The belief system is still central

> > to my existence, but the forum, I guess, isn't and won't be for a while.

> >

> > I will include a real question that I have so I won't get put on

> > moderation. (:->) If water kefir eats sugar, what does it turn the

> > sugar into? Not alcohol I trust. And if it converts sugar into something

> > innocuous or beneficially, wouldn't drinking those microbes help to protect

> > one from sugar (I just had a bunch of brownie batter, very paleo since it

> > was raw. [That would be my attempt at humor.])?

> >

> > Those were not statements. They were questions to the entire group.

> >

> >

> > Colorado Springs, still here but wounded

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It turns into fructose.

Al

Re: Condolances and questions

The sugar turns into more water grains. Just rearranges itself into water

grains. That's my take when they are growing at 120% in 48 hours. Plus the

other answers are also correct. Various acids that are healthy.

Marilyn

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:07 PM, B <rogerbird2@...> wrote:

>

> Leo,

>

> I have gotten banned twice from the same email forum, and it was a forum

> devoted to my belief system which is central to my existence. So don't

> feel bad if you get put on moderation. The belief system is still central

> to my existence, but the forum, I guess, isn't and won't be for a while.

>

> I will include a real question that I have so I won't get put on

> moderation. (:->) If water kefir eats sugar, what does it turn the

> sugar into? Not alcohol I trust. And if it converts sugar into something

> innocuous or beneficially, wouldn't drinking those microbes help to protect

> one from sugar (I just had a bunch of brownie batter, very paleo since it

> was raw. [That would be my attempt at humor.])?

>

> Those were not statements. They were questions to the entire group.

>

>

> Colorado Springs, still here but wounded

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wrong--it does not turn into fructose. The sugar (sucrose) converts to

alcohol and CO2 and ETOH, and other compounds. This is per my husband, a

college Chemistry professor.

Fructose is a naturally-occurring sugar found in fruits and vegetables

sugars <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose>. Only through glycolysis

and a minimum two- step process in a lab setting could there be a

possibility of converting sucrose to fructose.

Kim

[Guest guest]

Sorry,

Must beg to differ. Sucrose is a disaccharide comprised of glucose and fructose

and a lab is NOT required to split sucrose into fructose and glucose. This

happens via hydrolysis - either thermal (heat) or acid. This happens in our

mouths and stomachs when we eat sugar. It also happens in the jar when we make

kefir. The hydrolyzed sugars are then converted eventually into alcohol as the

kefir ferments. This, by the way, can also occur in the stomach if we eat sugary

foods and have low stomach acid conditions - if the sugar is not fully digested,

it can ferment in the stomach.

See Wikipedia sugars, hydrolysis, sucrose, glucose, fructose for more

information.

D. in land

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 12, 2012, at 7:37 AM, Kim <kimanjo@...> wrote:

> Wrong--it does not turn into fructose. The sugar (sucrose) converts to

> alcohol and CO2 and ETOH, and other compounds. This is per my husband, a

> college Chemistry professor.

>

> Fructose is a naturally-occurring sugar found in fruits and vegetables

> sugars <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose>. Only through glycolysis

> and a minimum two- step process in a lab setting could there be a

> possibility of converting sucrose to fructose.

>

> Kim

>

>

[Guest guest]

In the case of kefir, there is very little (if any) fructose after the

fermentation process, approximately only 1.4%, as the majority of the

sucrose has become carbon dioxide and ethyl alcohol.

Kim

*

*

*Q. How much sugar is left in the finished Water Kefir?

*A. Not much. On average, it is the same amount of sugar as 1 green

apple. As the Kefir Grains grow, they convert the sugar (sucrose) into

very easy to digest mono-saccharides glucose and fructose. After

fermentation approximately 20% of the original sugar will remain in the

Kefir. Almost all of that remaining sugar will be fructose. After 48 hour

fermentation, 1 quart of water will contain *only 1.4% fructose*.

[Guest guest]

Sorry Kim, tell your husband he gets a " F " , well, maybe a " D- " because he

is correct that nothing is converted into fructose. However Sucrose is

made of glucose and fructose. From Wiki (since I don't have any of my

college chemistry texts, I think I burned them):

Sucrose - " The molecule is a

disaccharide<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disaccharide> composed

of the monosaccharides <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosaccharides>

glucose <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose> and

fructose<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose> with

the molecular formula <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_formula> C12H

22O11. "

So all three of you have to do extra homework this weekend. :-)

Leo

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:37 AM, Kim <kimanjo@...> wrote:

> **

>

>

> Wrong--it does not turn into fructose. The sugar (sucrose) converts to

> alcohol and CO2 and ETOH, and other compounds. This is per my husband, a

> college Chemistry professor.

>

> Fructose is a naturally-occurring sugar found in fruits and vegetables

> sugars <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose>. Only through glycolysis

> and a minimum two- step process in a lab setting could there be a

> possibility of converting sucrose to fructose.

>

> Kim

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It's been about a year since I'd been using water kefir. I stopped using it

because it caused my candida (which I did not know I had) to go into a tailspin

and my digestion stopped pretty quick. I remembered reading it turned into

fructose somewhere but since I didn't consume it anymore, didn't pay much

attention. So, I looked to see where I may have seen fructose when I was

learning about it. It was from cultures for health. I didn't know the

quantity, but I remembered I saw the word somewhere.

http://www.culturesforhealth.com/water-kefir-frequently-asked-questions-faq

Al

Re: Condolances and questions

Wrong--it does not turn into fructose. The sugar (sucrose) converts to

alcohol and CO2 and ETOH, and other compounds. This is per my husband, a

college Chemistry professor.

Fructose is a naturally-occurring sugar found in fruits and vegetables

sugars <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose>. Only through glycolysis

and a minimum two- step process in a lab setting could there be a

possibility of converting sucrose to fructose.

Kim

[Guest guest]

Wikipedia is not a trusted source for info. Most colleges will not let their

students use it as a source since it can be changed by anyone.

Al

Re: Condolances and questions

Wrong--it does not turn into fructose. The sugar (sucrose) converts to

alcohol and CO2 and ETOH, and other compounds. This is per my husband, a

college Chemistry professor.

Fructose is a naturally-occurring sugar found in fruits and vegetables

sugars <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose>. Only through glycolysis

and a minimum two- step process in a lab setting could there be a

possibility of converting sucrose to fructose.

Kim

[Guest guest]

Wikipedia should be used appropriately as it's intended, as a free user-owned

online dictionary - it is NOT a primary research source and should not be cited

in academic or other published papers. It is fine for laypeople to quickly look

up definitions. The fructose, glucose, sucrose, and hydrolyzation pages are

pretty good and have adequate sources cited. The kefir page also has some good

info although not as complete as Dim's or lin's sites.

Al, if you're uncomfortable with Wikipedia, why not cite sources you feel are

valid? I would not include " the Health Ranger's Natural News " or Mercola's

sites, sources you seem to use often and two if the lowest quality information

sources I have ever seen.

Thanks,

D in Silver Spring

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 13, 2012, at 2:46 AM, ouched63188@... wrote:

> Wikipedia is not a trusted source for info. Most colleges will not let their

students use it as a source since it can be changed by anyone.

>

> Al

>

> Re: Condolances and questions

>

> Wrong--it does not turn into fructose. The sugar (sucrose) converts to

>

> alcohol and CO2 and ETOH, and other compounds. This is per my husband, a

>

> college Chemistry professor.

>

> Fructose is a naturally-occurring sugar found in fruits and vegetables

>

> sugars <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose>. Only through glycolysis

>

> and a minimum two- step process in a lab setting could there be a

>

> possibility of converting sucrose to fructose.

>

> Kim

>

>

[Guest guest]

<<<It's been about a year since I'd been using water kefir. I stopped using it

because it caused my candida (which I did not know I had) to go into a tailspin

>>

It did the same thing to me. However, milk kefir doesn't cause any problems for

me.

Beth

[Guest guest]

It doesn't for me either. Besides, the milk kefir is so much more satisfying .

Al

Re: Condolances and questions

<<<It's been about a year since I'd been using water kefir. I stopped

using it because it caused my candida (which I did not know I had) to go into a

tailspin >>

It did the same thing to me. However, milk kefir doesn't cause any problems for

me.

Beth

[Guest guest]

Why do you feel Naturalnews and Mercola are poor sources? Is the health info on

there inaccurate because you are familiar with allopathy and don't understand

natural cures or is there a different reason? What is your source of accurate

info the gov or the drug companies themselves? What proof do you have that the

NN and Mercola are inaccurate? Mercola does sell products and when something

may be questionable, I don't use it as a source.

Al

Re: Condolances and questions

>

> Wrong--it does not turn into fructose. The sugar (sucrose) converts to

>

> alcohol and CO2 and ETOH, and other compounds. This is per my husband, a

>

> college Chemistry professor.

>

> Fructose is a naturally-occurring sugar found in fruits and vegetables

>

> sugars <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose>. Only through glycolysis

>

> and a minimum two- step process in a lab setting could there be a

>

> possibility of converting sucrose to fructose.

>

> Kim

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Al,

First let me say sorry if my emails sounded too harsh, and I really appreciate

the information you and others share on this forum.

There are a few assumptions in your message so let me try to tackle them while

staying on topic. I'm certainly very comfortable with allopathy and quite

skeptical of most inherent assumptions in what we might call commercial

medicine. I'm unimpressed with Natural News and Mercola for many of the same

reasons: I find the articles to be poorly written (frequent factual and

grammatical errors), lacking in documentation, and both sites fail to use

standard referencing methods which makes it easier to mask shoddy research. I

certainly don't think all the information they publish is wrong, in fact it

often turns out to be partially right. But there's a whole lot if opinion,

conjecture, and jumping to conclusions that just turn out to be dead wrong. I'd

never take the info at face value, and the smattering of links at the bottom of

each article often don't pan out as legitimate sources.

Circling back to the subject of kefir...I do think the questions of how much

sugar is in cultured kefir and what kind of sugar molecules are present are

important ones. As you've pointed out Al, people with all kinds of digestive

issues and health problems will have different needs. Folks on the SCD diet may

not avoid fructose but will avoid di- and polysaccharides like sucrose and

maltose. Diabetics will want to avoid fructose and culture out as many sugars as

possible. I haven't delved deeply into the source documents and texts listed on

Dom's site but it looks like there are great resources there for folks who want

a really detailed analysis of the chemical processes and end results of

culturing kefir.

I'll also mention that my first real exposure to the Mercola and Natural News

sites happened a few years ago while I was writing an article comparing various

natural sweeteners. There were some articles about agave that were poorly

written, poorly researched, and included info that was just wrong. I've checked

back from time to time and I find that the info is always poorly presented, and

the ratio of correct to incorrect tends to be about 50/50. I'd strongly suggest

sticking to peer-reviewed journals and thoroughly documented sources, but that's

just me.

Thanks,

D

On Jul 13, 2012, at 1:38 PM, ouched63188@... wrote:

> Why do you feel Naturalnews and Mercola are poor sources? Is the health info

on there inaccurate because you are familiar with allopathy and don't understand

natural cures or is there a different reason? What is your source of accurate

info the gov or the drug companies themselves? What proof do you have that the

NN and Mercola are inaccurate? Mercola does sell products and when something may

be questionable, I don't use it as a source.

>

> Al

> Re: Condolances and questions

>

> >

>

> > Wrong--it does not turn into fructose. The sugar (sucrose) converts to

>

> >

>

> > alcohol and CO2 and ETOH, and other compounds. This is per my husband, a

>

> >

>

> > college Chemistry professor.

>

> >

>

> > Fructose is a naturally-occurring sugar found in fruits and vegetables

>

> >

>

> > sugars <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose>. Only through glycolysis

>

> >

>

> > and a minimum two- step process in a lab setting could there be a

>

> >

>

> > possibility of converting sucrose to fructose.

>

> >

>

> > Kim

>

> >

>

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Did you know, that at the bottom of each email, there is an option to reply to

sender? So I would like to suggest that if the next reply in this thread isn’t

related to kefir, maybe it could be taken off the board since it hasn’t gone

to the off topic board. Thanks for your courtesy and consideration.

From: ouched63188@...

Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 10:38 AM

Subject: Re: Condolances and questions

Why do you feel Naturalnews and Mercola are poor sources? Is the health info on

there inaccurate because you are familiar with allopathy and don't understand

natural cures or is there a different reason? What is your source of accurate

info the gov or the drug companies themselves? What proof do you have that the

NN and Mercola are inaccurate? Mercola does sell products and when something may

be questionable, I don't use it as a source.

Al

Re: Condolances and questions

>

> Wrong--it does not turn into fructose. The sugar (sucrose) converts to

>

> alcohol and CO2 and ETOH, and other compounds. This is per my husband, a

>

> college Chemistry professor.

>

> Fructose is a naturally-occurring sugar found in fruits and vegetables

>

> sugars <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose>. Only through glycolysis

>

> and a minimum two- step process in a lab setting could there be a

>

> possibility of converting sucrose to fructose.

>

> Kim

>

>

[Guest guest]

I did not know, , will comply, thanks,

susan

> Wikipedia is not a trusted source for info. Most colleges will not let their

students use it as a source since it can be changed by anyone.

>

> Al

>

> Re: Condolances and questions

>

> Wrong--it does not turn into fructose. The sugar (sucrose) converts to

>

> alcohol and CO2 and ETOH, and other compounds. This is per my husband, a

>

> college Chemistry professor.

>

> Fructose is a naturally-occurring sugar found in fruits and vegetables

>

> sugars <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose>. Only through glycolysis

>

> and a minimum two- step process in a lab setting could there be a

>

> possibility of converting sucrose to fructose.

>

> Kim

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, ! And to Al, I don’t have an opinion to offer about whether

Naturalnews and Mercola are good or bad, but Mercola does sell kefir starter. I

prefer to use the fresh grains myself.

On another note, Just to test it, I took out my pack of grains that I had frozen

some 6 months ago, to see how they would do. They kicked right into gear without

a hitch. Now I’m just a little paranoid though. If something were to go wrong,

I don’t have backup now. And it would be dumb to stick them back in the

freezer. But the grains are working well and making yummy kefir. Two batches

now. Good thing kefir keeps well in the fridge.

Best regards,

From: susan slocum

Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 6:23 PM

Subject: Re: Condolances and questions

I did not know, , will comply, thanks,

susan

> Wikipedia is not a trusted source for info. Most colleges will not let their

students use it as a source since it can be changed by anyone.

>

> Al

>

> Re: Condolances and questions

>

> Wrong--it does not turn into fructose. The sugar (sucrose) converts to

>

> alcohol and CO2 and ETOH, and other compounds. This is per my husband, a

>

> college Chemistry professor.

>

> Fructose is a naturally-occurring sugar found in fruits and vegetables

>

> sugars <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose>. Only through glycolysis

>

> and a minimum two- step process in a lab setting could there be a

>

> possibility of converting sucrose to fructose.

>

> Kim

>

>

[Guest guest]

, thanks for this. When I run across the small FoodSaver packets of

grains that live in my freezer, I often wonder if they would revive if I

were to need them. For yours, I would continue to culture them for awhile

and eventually, when they have grown enough and you are sure they are 100%,

maybe a couple of months??, take some out and freeze a couple of packets

again for future emergencies.

Carol K

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 9:42 PM, <jdpro@...> wrote:

> **

> On another note, Just to test it, I took out my pack of grains that I had

> frozen some 6 months ago, to see how they would do. They kicked right into

> gear without a hitch. Now I�m just a little paranoid though. If something

> were to go wrong, I don�t have backup now. And it would be dumb to stick

> them back in the freezer. But the grains are working well and making yummy

> kefir. Two batches now. Good thing kefir keeps well in the fridge.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm glad it helped you Carol, and thanks I will do exactly as you suggest.

Re: Condolances and questions

, thanks for this. When I run across the small FoodSaver packets of

grains that live in my freezer, I often wonder if they would revive if I

were to need them. For yours, I would continue to culture them for awhile

and eventually, when they have grown enough and you are sure they are 100%,

maybe a couple of months??, take some out and freeze a couple of packets

again for future emergencies.

Carol K