Guest guest Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 Once when Noah was little he did something similar. I went to put him to bed, and when I put him down to stand and get his pj's on, he started crying, and collapsed on the floor. I'd pick him up and try to get him to stand, and he's just kind of crumble. I couldn't figure if it was a bone thing or a balance thing or what. We took him to the ER, and it turns out he had " transient synovitis of the hip. " (I can't believe I remember that after about 10 years!) They don't really know what causes it, maybe a virus. It basically resolves on it's own, with some Tylenol for the pain. It is so hard when you can't ask your kids questions about what's wrong... Just one of my experiences... Karla in Texas help! > HELP! > > > > Last night phoebe slid gently down off the couch and started crying when > she > stepped on her foot. I could find nothing wrong with it. It was right at > bed time so I let her sleep with me to watch her. No problems at night, > but > when she got up and tried to put weight on it, she screamed again. She is > still learning to walk so she just toddles around. I cannot imagine her > breaking a bone by just stepping on it. > > > > I pressed on the top and sides and she pulls back and cries, but there is > no > swelling or purpleness or any signs something bit her. > > > > I am at a loss! I am putting ice on it, which she hates and I have to sit > on the couch with her and cannot do anything else. I gave her some advil, > but nothing helps. Right now we are so broke I cannot even put gas in the > car until payday Friday. But not to worry I am raiding the coin jars for > the gas money to get her to the ER! Whatever works, right? > > > > I just wanted to know if anyone else has experience this. I do not know > if > it has something to do with the Down's syndrome or with her cystic > fibrosis. > > > > I hope someone can help. > > > > > > > > Nolan-6 > > Phoebe Ds & Cf-4 > > > > > Lipstick > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 She may have a hairline fracture or a bone spur. Keep us posted. granny On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Dinkins-Borkowski < julie@...> wrote: > > > HELP! > > Last night phoebe slid gently down off the couch and started crying when > she > stepped on her foot. I could find nothing wrong with it. It was right at > bed time so I let her sleep with me to watch her. No problems at night, but > when she got up and tried to put weight on it, she screamed again. She is > still learning to walk so she just toddles around. I cannot imagine her > breaking a bone by just stepping on it. > > I pressed on the top and sides and she pulls back and cries, but there is > no > swelling or purpleness or any signs something bit her. > > I am at a loss! I am putting ice on it, which she hates and I have to sit > on the couch with her and cannot do anything else. I gave her some advil, > but nothing helps. Right now we are so broke I cannot even put gas in the > car until payday Friday. But not to worry I am raiding the coin jars for > the gas money to get her to the ER! Whatever works, right? > > I just wanted to know if anyone else has experience this. I do not know if > it has something to do with the Down's syndrome or with her cystic > fibrosis. > > I hope someone can help. > > > > Nolan-6 > > Phoebe Ds & Cf-4 > > Lipstick > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 I have one as well. This past spring break, I took Tim with me to . He was on the stairs leading to the water slide and slipped. At least that's what he said. Anyway, it was a two hour drive back home, and he wasn't complaining, there was no swelling, but he was favouring his right arm. He ate lunch on the way, and didn't really complain about it. But, when we got home, I said that we would take him for a picture after I took the luggage in. The hospital is just down the street. So, we did that. Still no swelling, and just favouring it. After the x-ray the doctor bounced into the room and said to me " Doesn't he need pain killers? " I said " Ask him. " She said " Does it hurt, Tim? " He said, " A little bit. " She gave him two T3's (prescription size) which would have knocked me under the table but he was fine. It turns out he had broken a small bone that connected to the joint in his wrist. We have a royal blue cast as a souvenir. He had it on for six weeks. Val From: Bonnie Rich Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:02 PM Subject: Re: help! , Just before turned 6 she slipped on an area rug at my Mom's and wouldn't get up on that foot. Cried real hard too. My parents picked her up, put ice on it, gave her some dinner. When we came home about 2hrs later, she still wouldn't walk on it, wouldn't let us touch it. We took her to the ER and she had broken a bone on the side of her foot. She has fallen at least 100 times and sometimes real heart stoppers too, but this one mild fall, broke a bone. Go figure!! It never swelled or discolored by the way. It didn't look different in any way. We have a souvenier little green cast to remind us that sometimes its the little nothings - you just never know. I'd go get an X-ray - better safe and it doesn't hurt. Thank you! Bonnie from N.E. Ohio - SAHM to 13 ADD, ?ODD?, my future star, and 9 Ds, ADD, CHD, GERD, Alopecia Areata, AAI, behavior isssues, Hypothyroid, some new eye problems and my #1 reason to smile. I'm also Mom to grown up and on her own, 26 ADD,LDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 I have one as well. This past spring break, I took Tim with me to . He was on the stairs leading to the water slide and slipped. At least that's what he said. Anyway, it was a two hour drive back home, and he wasn't complaining, there was no swelling, but he was favouring his right arm. He ate lunch on the way, and didn't really complain about it. But, when we got home, I said that we would take him for a picture after I took the luggage in. The hospital is just down the street. So, we did that. Still no swelling, and just favouring it. After the x-ray the doctor bounced into the room and said to me " Doesn't he need pain killers? " I said " Ask him. " She said " Does it hurt, Tim? " He said, " A little bit. " She gave him two T3's (prescription size) which would have knocked me under the table but he was fine. It turns out he had broken a small bone that connected to the joint in his wrist. We have a royal blue cast as a souvenir. He had it on for six weeks. Val From: Bonnie Rich Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:02 PM Subject: Re: help! , Just before turned 6 she slipped on an area rug at my Mom's and wouldn't get up on that foot. Cried real hard too. My parents picked her up, put ice on it, gave her some dinner. When we came home about 2hrs later, she still wouldn't walk on it, wouldn't let us touch it. We took her to the ER and she had broken a bone on the side of her foot. She has fallen at least 100 times and sometimes real heart stoppers too, but this one mild fall, broke a bone. Go figure!! It never swelled or discolored by the way. It didn't look different in any way. We have a souvenier little green cast to remind us that sometimes its the little nothings - you just never know. I'd go get an X-ray - better safe and it doesn't hurt. Thank you! Bonnie from N.E. Ohio - SAHM to 13 ADD, ?ODD?, my future star, and 9 Ds, ADD, CHD, GERD, Alopecia Areata, AAI, behavior isssues, Hypothyroid, some new eye problems and my #1 reason to smile. I'm also Mom to grown up and on her own, 26 ADD,LDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2009 Report Share Posted September 19, 2009 Hi, I am a lurker here but found your question compelling enough to come out of Lurkerwood, lol This is something I have never considered but it makes sense to me. I googled a bit to see what I could find. http://www.punjabi-recipes.com/recipes/428.aspx Here is a 100 facts about eggs written by a vegetarian from India. According to him, eggs are not meant to be eaten, they are essentially a by product of the female reproductive system, just like the females menses. After reading that, there is no question in my mind that I will never eat eggs again! Even when I deviate away from being vegan which happens from time to time. Blessings, in Oklahoma City PS: I am working on staying vegan 100% of the time, I promise. I just have to figure out a way to control my terrible cravings for cheese!!!!! -- Help! I'm looking for information that may not even be out there but I know this is the group to ask.I'm doing work with infertile women/couples trying to get pregnant and I really REALLY believe that eating eggs (chicken eggs) is a big diet no no. Of course there is nothing out there that supports this (at least nothing I've come across), but it only makes sense to me that eating eggs of another species HAS to affect your eggs as a female (human). Eating reproductive cells/eggs of another can't be helpful. it must compromise or alter you bio-chemically. n'est ce pas?If ANYONE has anything to help me with this 'theory' it would be greatly appreciated.HUGS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2009 Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 , Have you ever made tofu cheese? tofu that has been totally covered with miso and sat a while - it's also called pickled tofu there's other tricks with tofu that makes for a cheesy flavor and texture - if you figure out what it is you like about cheese, you may be able to find other foods that fit the bill - if it's creamy cheese, lots of foods can be made creamy - and delicious. but like with eggs, once you realize other things that the food does to affect you (clog you up, etc) you may change your mind. You were good with researching on eggs, I"m sure you can find plenty on milk/cheese. I know Reggie's posted in the past links about milk - which of course cheese is such, only more concentrated. Klara From: Gypsy <gypsygina@...>Subject: Re: Help! Date: Saturday, September 19, 2009, 7:17 PM Hi, I am a lurker here but found your question compelling enough to come out of Lurkerwood, lol This is something I have never considered but it makes sense to me. I googled a bit to see what I could find. http://www.punjabi- recipes.com/ recipes/428. aspx Here is a 100 facts about eggs written by a vegetarian from India. According to him, eggs are not meant to be eaten, they are essentially a by product of the female reproductive system, just like the females menses. After reading that, there is no question in my mind that I will never eat eggs again! Even when I deviate away from being vegan which happens from time to time. Blessings, in Oklahoma City PS: I am working on staying vegan 100% of the time, I promise. I just have to figure out a way to control my terrible cravings for cheese!!!!! -- Help! I'm looking for information that may not even be out there but I know this is the group to ask.I'm doing work with infertile women/couples trying to get pregnant and I really REALLY believe that eating eggs (chicken eggs) is a big diet no no. Of course there is nothing out there that supports this (at least nothing I've come across), but it only makes sense to me that eating eggs of another species HAS to affect your eggs as a female (human). Eating reproductive cells/eggs of another can't be helpful. it must compromise or alter you bio-chemically. n'est ce pas?If ANYONE has anything to help me with this 'theory' it would be greatly appreciated.HUGS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2009 Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 just tell them I told you it's the truth, lol http://www.dherbs.com/articles/eggs-8.html > > I'm looking for information that may not even be out there but I know this is the group to ask. > > I'm doing work with infertile women/couples trying to get pregnant and I really REALLY believe that eating eggs (chicken eggs) is a big diet no no. Of course there is nothing out there that supports this (at least nothing I've come across), but it only makes sense to me that eating eggs of another species HAS to affect your eggs as a female (human). Eating reproductive cells/eggs of another can't be helpful. it must compromise or alter you bio-chemically. n'est ce pas? > > If ANYONE has anything to help me with this 'theory' it would be greatly appreciated. > > > HUGS! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2009 Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 you have cravings for cheese because the dairy industry is very clever and puts addictive properties in it so you get hooked! Resist the urge, check out the sites that show what happens to the dairy cows, how they are raped, how their male babies are sent off to become veal and murdered after 14 weeks. Or how their female babies are raped and pumped for 2 years and then murdered. That can help...... I'll gladly get more info for you, if you'd like....... Reggie > > > Hi, > > I am a lurker here but found your question compelling enough to come out of > Lurkerwood, lol > > This is something I have never considered but it makes sense to me. I > googled a bit to see what I could find. > > http://www.punjabi-recipes.com/recipes/428.aspx > > Here is a 100 facts about eggs written by a vegetarian from India. > According to him, eggs are not meant to be eaten, they are essentially a by > product of the female reproductive system, just like the females menses. > > After reading that, there is no question in my mind that I will never eat > eggs again! Even when I deviate away from being vegan which happens from > time to time. > > Blessings, > in Oklahoma City > > PS: I am working on staying vegan 100% of the time, I promise. I just have > to figure out a way to control my terrible cravings for cheese!!!!! > > > > > > > -- Help! > > I'm looking for information that may not even be out there but I know this > is the group to ask. > > I'm doing work with infertile women/couples trying to get pregnant and I > really REALLY believe that eating eggs (chicken eggs) is a big diet no no. > Of course there is nothing out there that supports this (at least nothing I > ve come across), but it only makes sense to me that eating eggs of another > species HAS to affect your eggs as a female (human). Eating reproductive > cells/eggs of another can't be helpful. it must compromise or alter you > bio-chemically. n'est ce pas? > > If ANYONE has anything to help me with this 'theory' it would be greatly > appreciated. > > HUGS! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Thank you so much! I'll check this out right now! Everything I've been reading has actually suggested that infertile women EAT lots of eggs and dairy. :-( Help!> > > > I'm looking for information that may not even be out > there but I know this> is the group to ask.> > > > I'm doing work with infertile women/couples trying to get > pregnant and I> really REALLY believe that eating eggs (chicken eggs) is a big > diet no no.> Of course there is nothing out there that supports this (at > least nothing I> ve come across), but it only makes sense to me that eating eggs > of another> species HAS to affect your eggs as a female (human). Eating > reproductivecells/eggs of another can't be helpful. it must > compromise or alter you> bio-chemically. n'est ce pas?> > > > If ANYONE has anything to help me with this 'theory' it would be > greatlyappreciated.> > > > HUGS!> > > > > > > > "...become the change you envision" _ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Please distribute to all lists... RE: Pt. St. Lucie child voted out of class... now honor student... ----- Forwarded Message ----From: melissa barton <melissafbarton@...>" E. , Sr." <peace4kids@...>Sent: Wed, October 21, 2009 1:30:14 AMSubject: HELP! Hi Can you BUZZ UP this story for more to see? http://buzz./article/1:nbc_miami772:32a05759c5bd7448965ab2c85167105a/Kindergarten-Survivor-Goes-From-Outcast-to-Honor-Roll Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 - the numbers could be caused by a variety of over the counter meds. Advil comes to mind. Liver enzyme levels fluctuate quite a bit and although they are abnormally high they are not dangerous. At one point when Macey was 4 or 5 she had liver levels running 400-500. The immunologist said he wasn't worried until they were even higher. Go figure. The BUN and eosinophil levels could be lab tech sensitive since they are just over the norms. Are the numbers trending upwards over the last 2 or 3 blood draws or was this the first abnormal set? If it's trending up then it might be worth discussing already (although I would wait for another lab level or two). Ursula Holleman mom to (16) and Macey (14) www.caringbridge.org/visit/maceyholleman From: stacy171@... Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:18:45 +0000 Subject: Help! My son is still being worked-up for his low IgG and low IgM. In the mean time, his BUN and BUN/Creatinine ratio keeps increasing and his ALT/AST are increasing. I'm worried there's something going on that is damaging his kidneys and liver. In addition, his eosinophils are high. Anyone know what that could mean? He is 5yo and also has significant bowel issues that aren't real clear either. Lab values: BUN 19 [4-15] BUN/Creatinine ratio 48 [10-20] AST 67 [10-42] ALT 82 [8-50] A/G ratio 2.2 [1-2] Eosinophil 6.0 [0-4.0] Thank you, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 - the numbers could be caused by a variety of over the counter meds. Advil comes to mind. Liver enzyme levels fluctuate quite a bit and although they are abnormally high they are not dangerous. At one point when Macey was 4 or 5 she had liver levels running 400-500. The immunologist said he wasn't worried until they were even higher. Go figure. The BUN and eosinophil levels could be lab tech sensitive since they are just over the norms. Are the numbers trending upwards over the last 2 or 3 blood draws or was this the first abnormal set? If it's trending up then it might be worth discussing already (although I would wait for another lab level or two). Ursula Holleman mom to (16) and Macey (14) www.caringbridge.org/visit/maceyholleman From: stacy171@... Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:18:45 +0000 Subject: Help! My son is still being worked-up for his low IgG and low IgM. In the mean time, his BUN and BUN/Creatinine ratio keeps increasing and his ALT/AST are increasing. I'm worried there's something going on that is damaging his kidneys and liver. In addition, his eosinophils are high. Anyone know what that could mean? He is 5yo and also has significant bowel issues that aren't real clear either. Lab values: BUN 19 [4-15] BUN/Creatinine ratio 48 [10-20] AST 67 [10-42] ALT 82 [8-50] A/G ratio 2.2 [1-2] Eosinophil 6.0 [0-4.0] Thank you, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Hi Chelsea, Our son, Noah, currently wears a brace but had a series of 9 casts first. Our son had/has very progressive IS. He went from 32 degress (May 2006) to 80 degrees (August 2006). That was HUGE for us!! You could stick your fist inside his spine on the Xray. My husband and I were sick to our stomachs seeing that! Our Doc (who, in his defense, did tell us they did casting in SLC) wanted to wait another 3 months, to brace, until he was walking (he was 13 months at that time). My husband would not wait, as his Niece who was 13 at that time had just had her back fused as she also has scolisis. Thank God, he knew better!! I would hate to see where we would be today. Anyways we were told at that time, that bracing would 'only hold~not correct' him, and we needed correction or surgery was not far off. He is now in his 4th brace (after the 9 casts) and is still getting correction, slowly but surely. Please know that we would not be in a brace if it weren't for casting...I'm a total casting advocate!!!! Personally, I think casting is easier in some aspects. You don't have the option to take it off. Sure, it gets dirty and smelly but it is all worth it. I just know, personally, I would have given in to Noah if at 14 months he would have cried because he wanted it off, where with casting that is not even an option. He adjusted quite quickly, balance was the hardest thing. They become rather top heavy. Now that he is in a brace, he rarely asks for it to be removed, which I don't think would have happened had we not casted first. Please ask all questions you have on the group as it is full of wonderful people!! Noah 4yrs 7mo, 9 casts 4 braces, 80 degress to 16 in brace SLC ROCKS!!! From: kerplunkmonkey <softballchick105@...>Subject: HELP!infantile scoliosis treatment Date: Friday, March 26, 2010, 7:45 PM Hi, my name is Chelsea and as of December of 2009 we got told about our daughters scoliosis. She just turned a year old on march 4th and got her brace a couple days later. we have been taking her to the chiropracter since december and they are the ones that told us about her scoliosis. When she was 3-4 months old i asked my doctor what was wrong with her back because her ribs were sticking out more on her left said and she would just say oh its just a muscle mass just work with her to use her other side, well it got worse. With xrays done at childrens mercy here in kansas she was at a 51 degree curve. Now with the brace on she was at a 34 degree curve. I was just wanting advice from parents if anyone else has the brace and how they got their child used to wearing it or what made you choose to go with casting if you didnt choose the brace! any information will help, as we have no information on anything except what i find on the internet! Thanks -Chelsea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Hi Chelsea, Our son, Noah, currently wears a brace but had a series of 9 casts first. Our son had/has very progressive IS. He went from 32 degress (May 2006) to 80 degrees (August 2006). That was HUGE for us!! You could stick your fist inside his spine on the Xray. My husband and I were sick to our stomachs seeing that! Our Doc (who, in his defense, did tell us they did casting in SLC) wanted to wait another 3 months, to brace, until he was walking (he was 13 months at that time). My husband would not wait, as his Niece who was 13 at that time had just had her back fused as she also has scolisis. Thank God, he knew better!! I would hate to see where we would be today. Anyways we were told at that time, that bracing would 'only hold~not correct' him, and we needed correction or surgery was not far off. He is now in his 4th brace (after the 9 casts) and is still getting correction, slowly but surely. Please know that we would not be in a brace if it weren't for casting...I'm a total casting advocate!!!! Personally, I think casting is easier in some aspects. You don't have the option to take it off. Sure, it gets dirty and smelly but it is all worth it. I just know, personally, I would have given in to Noah if at 14 months he would have cried because he wanted it off, where with casting that is not even an option. He adjusted quite quickly, balance was the hardest thing. They become rather top heavy. Now that he is in a brace, he rarely asks for it to be removed, which I don't think would have happened had we not casted first. Please ask all questions you have on the group as it is full of wonderful people!! Noah 4yrs 7mo, 9 casts 4 braces, 80 degress to 16 in brace SLC ROCKS!!! From: kerplunkmonkey <softballchick105@...>Subject: HELP!infantile scoliosis treatment Date: Friday, March 26, 2010, 7:45 PM Hi, my name is Chelsea and as of December of 2009 we got told about our daughters scoliosis. She just turned a year old on march 4th and got her brace a couple days later. we have been taking her to the chiropracter since december and they are the ones that told us about her scoliosis. When she was 3-4 months old i asked my doctor what was wrong with her back because her ribs were sticking out more on her left said and she would just say oh its just a muscle mass just work with her to use her other side, well it got worse. With xrays done at childrens mercy here in kansas she was at a 51 degree curve. Now with the brace on she was at a 34 degree curve. I was just wanting advice from parents if anyone else has the brace and how they got their child used to wearing it or what made you choose to go with casting if you didnt choose the brace! any information will help, as we have no information on anything except what i find on the internet! Thanks -Chelsea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Hi thanks for replying. We are running into the problem that i feel awful as a parent for putting her in the brace and when she cries for over thirty minutes i do take the brace off. we've had the brace for a week now and i let her play with it before she puts it on and the entire time shes wearing it, its nothing but screaming. shes delayed on her walking due to the scoliosis. When she will walk i have no idea. The brace is very top heavy and her little legs just arent strong enough to support all the weight. We are at a total loss of what to do to help her adjust to it what ways to go about making her like having the brace on, or if we shouldcall the doctor and tell him we want the cast. We just have no idea at this point. We want to do whats best for her and what can hold her spine until shes old enough to have the surgery, its just so hard with her just turning one and screaming, and oh so stressful! I have made sure today that she has her brace on for the amout of time that the doctor wanted, but it was nothing but screaming and tears. i hated having to hear it all day but i knew thats what she needed. and i hope im not the only one that is having the problems of trying to get their kid adjusted to the brace, its just so hard to see her having to wear it and people looking at us like we caused it! UGH! Thank you for your story thought i really appreciate it! -CHelsea > > > From: kerplunkmonkey <softballchick105@...> > Subject: HELP! > infantile scoliosis treatment > Date: Friday, March 26, 2010, 7:45 PM > > >  > > > > Hi, my name is Chelsea and as of December of 2009 we got told about our daughters scoliosis. She just turned a year old on march 4th and got her brace a couple days later. we have been taking her to the chiropracter since december and they are the ones that told us about her scoliosis. When she was 3-4 months old i asked my doctor what was wrong with her back because her ribs were sticking out more on her left said and she would just say oh its just a muscle mass just work with her to use her other side, well it got worse. With xrays done at childrens mercy here in kansas she was at a 51 degree curve. Now with the brace on she was at a 34 degree curve. I was just wanting advice from parents if anyone else has the brace and how they got their child used to wearing it or what made you choose to go with casting if you didnt choose the brace! any information will help, as we have no information on anything except what i find on the internet! Thanks -Chelsea > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Hi thanks for replying. We are running into the problem that i feel awful as a parent for putting her in the brace and when she cries for over thirty minutes i do take the brace off. we've had the brace for a week now and i let her play with it before she puts it on and the entire time shes wearing it, its nothing but screaming. shes delayed on her walking due to the scoliosis. When she will walk i have no idea. The brace is very top heavy and her little legs just arent strong enough to support all the weight. We are at a total loss of what to do to help her adjust to it what ways to go about making her like having the brace on, or if we shouldcall the doctor and tell him we want the cast. We just have no idea at this point. We want to do whats best for her and what can hold her spine until shes old enough to have the surgery, its just so hard with her just turning one and screaming, and oh so stressful! I have made sure today that she has her brace on for the amout of time that the doctor wanted, but it was nothing but screaming and tears. i hated having to hear it all day but i knew thats what she needed. and i hope im not the only one that is having the problems of trying to get their kid adjusted to the brace, its just so hard to see her having to wear it and people looking at us like we caused it! UGH! Thank you for your story thought i really appreciate it! -CHelsea > > > From: kerplunkmonkey <softballchick105@...> > Subject: HELP! > infantile scoliosis treatment > Date: Friday, March 26, 2010, 7:45 PM > > >  > > > > Hi, my name is Chelsea and as of December of 2009 we got told about our daughters scoliosis. She just turned a year old on march 4th and got her brace a couple days later. we have been taking her to the chiropracter since december and they are the ones that told us about her scoliosis. When she was 3-4 months old i asked my doctor what was wrong with her back because her ribs were sticking out more on her left said and she would just say oh its just a muscle mass just work with her to use her other side, well it got worse. With xrays done at childrens mercy here in kansas she was at a 51 degree curve. Now with the brace on she was at a 34 degree curve. I was just wanting advice from parents if anyone else has the brace and how they got their child used to wearing it or what made you choose to go with casting if you didnt choose the brace! any information will help, as we have no information on anything except what i find on the internet! Thanks -Chelsea > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Hi Chelsea, welcome! If your little girl has Progressive Infantile Scoliosis, which it sounds from your post that she does- based on what I've learned here, then a brace probably will not prevent the curve from progressing. I'm not a doctor, but in our case, it would have only led to multiple spinal surgeries, beginning at age 2-3- more likely 2. I know this can all be very overwhelming, especially in the beginning, but it's best to know as early as possible. Knowledge is power.The fact that she's in a brace is great, but I would definitely send her X-ray to a Mehta trained doctor near you, as soon as you can. You will need an MRI for most doctors to cast, and that can take some time to get in for in some cities- so it is important to get your ducks in a row, so to speak, sooner rather than later. The human spine grows 50 percent of its entire growth before age 2, and you want to harness that rapid growth as young as possible for casting to work best.It can be a cure, if treated properly in time! In this case, the Internet is definitely a good thing. You are in the right place, ask any and all questions. We wish we had found this group a few months younger for our child, believe me : ) You are already being a great advocate for your baby! Heidi, Bexon's Mommy, (2 and a half years old, in 6th cast from Salt Lake City Shriners, currently down from 61 degrees to 25 in cast)From: kerplunkmonkey <softballchick105@...>infantile scoliosis treatment Sent: Fri, March 26, 2010 6:45:31 PMSubject: HELP! Hi, my name is Chelsea and as of December of 2009 we got told about our daughters scoliosis. She just turned a year old on march 4th and got her brace a couple days later. we have been taking her to the chiropracter since december and they are the ones that told us about her scoliosis. When she was 3-4 months old i asked my doctor what was wrong with her back because her ribs were sticking out more on her left said and she would just say oh its just a muscle mass just work with her to use her other side, well it got worse. With xrays done at childrens mercy here in kansas she was at a 51 degree curve. Now with the brace on she was at a 34 degree curve. I was just wanting advice from parents if anyone else has the brace and how they got their child used to wearing it or what made you choose to go with casting if you didnt choose the brace! any information will help, as we have no information on anything except what i find on the internet! Thanks -Chelsea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Hi Chelsea, welcome! If your little girl has Progressive Infantile Scoliosis, which it sounds from your post that she does- based on what I've learned here, then a brace probably will not prevent the curve from progressing. I'm not a doctor, but in our case, it would have only led to multiple spinal surgeries, beginning at age 2-3- more likely 2. I know this can all be very overwhelming, especially in the beginning, but it's best to know as early as possible. Knowledge is power.The fact that she's in a brace is great, but I would definitely send her X-ray to a Mehta trained doctor near you, as soon as you can. You will need an MRI for most doctors to cast, and that can take some time to get in for in some cities- so it is important to get your ducks in a row, so to speak, sooner rather than later. The human spine grows 50 percent of its entire growth before age 2, and you want to harness that rapid growth as young as possible for casting to work best.It can be a cure, if treated properly in time! In this case, the Internet is definitely a good thing. You are in the right place, ask any and all questions. We wish we had found this group a few months younger for our child, believe me : ) You are already being a great advocate for your baby! Heidi, Bexon's Mommy, (2 and a half years old, in 6th cast from Salt Lake City Shriners, currently down from 61 degrees to 25 in cast)From: kerplunkmonkey <softballchick105@...>infantile scoliosis treatment Sent: Fri, March 26, 2010 6:45:31 PMSubject: HELP! Hi, my name is Chelsea and as of December of 2009 we got told about our daughters scoliosis. She just turned a year old on march 4th and got her brace a couple days later. we have been taking her to the chiropracter since december and they are the ones that told us about her scoliosis. When she was 3-4 months old i asked my doctor what was wrong with her back because her ribs were sticking out more on her left said and she would just say oh its just a muscle mass just work with her to use her other side, well it got worse. With xrays done at childrens mercy here in kansas she was at a 51 degree curve. Now with the brace on she was at a 34 degree curve. I was just wanting advice from parents if anyone else has the brace and how they got their child used to wearing it or what made you choose to go with casting if you didnt choose the brace! any information will help, as we have no information on anything except what i find on the internet! Thanks -Chelsea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 We are going to Childrens Mercy in kansas city,ks and aubrey has gone through a 3 hour MRI to make sure everything was good and has had multiple x-rays. The doctor there said he would not consider surgery until she was around 10-13 years of age and that she would just be going through braces until then. My only concern as you stated is if the brace does not hold it and makes it worse..So I think on monday im going to call and see if we need to switch to the casting just so i dont give in and take the brace off of her like she knows i will do if she crys because i feel awful. or if he wants us to continue with the brace. Her curve did get 16 degrees better with the brace on. but once you take it off it just puts her back to the way she was before! This is all so stresful! I'm going to need a very long vacation after she is all healed up!! > > Hi Chelsea, welcome! If your little girl has Progressive Infantile Scoliosis, which it sounds from your post that she does- based on what I've learned here, then a brace probably will not prevent the curve from progressing. I'm not a doctor, but in our case, it would have only led to multiple spinal surgeries, beginning at age 2-3- more likely 2. I know this can all be very overwhelming, especially in the beginning, but it's best to know as early as possible. Knowledge is power. > > The fact that she's in a brace is great, but I would definitely send her X-ray to a Mehta trained doctor near you, as soon as you can. You will need an MRI for most doctors to cast, and that can take some time to get in for in some cities- so it is important to get your ducks in a row, so to speak, sooner rather than later. The human spine grows 50 percent of its entire growth before age 2, and you want to harness that rapid growth as young as possible for casting to work best. > > It can be a cure, if treated properly in time! In this case, the Internet is definitely a good thing. You are in the right place, ask any and all questions. We wish we had found this group a few months younger for our child, believe me : ) You are already being a great advocate for your baby! > > Heidi, Bexon's Mommy, (2 and a half years old, in 6th cast from Salt Lake City Shriners, currently down from 61 degrees to 25 in cast) > > > > > ________________________________ > From: kerplunkmonkey <softballchick105@...> > infantile scoliosis treatment > Sent: Fri, March 26, 2010 6:45:31 PM > Subject: HELP! > > > Hi, my name is Chelsea and as of December of 2009 we got told about our daughters scoliosis. She just turned a year old on march 4th and got her brace a couple days later. we have been taking her to the chiropracter since december and they are the ones that told us about her scoliosis. When she was 3-4 months old i asked my doctor what was wrong with her back because her ribs were sticking out more on her left said and she would just say oh its just a muscle mass just work with her to use her other side, well it got worse. With xrays done at childrens mercy here in kansas she was at a 51 degree curve. Now with the brace on she was at a 34 degree curve. I was just wanting advice from parents if anyone else has the brace and how they got their child used to wearing it or what made you choose to go with casting if you didnt choose the brace! any information will help, as we have no information on anything except what i find on the internet! Thanks -Chelsea > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 We are going to Childrens Mercy in kansas city,ks and aubrey has gone through a 3 hour MRI to make sure everything was good and has had multiple x-rays. The doctor there said he would not consider surgery until she was around 10-13 years of age and that she would just be going through braces until then. My only concern as you stated is if the brace does not hold it and makes it worse..So I think on monday im going to call and see if we need to switch to the casting just so i dont give in and take the brace off of her like she knows i will do if she crys because i feel awful. or if he wants us to continue with the brace. Her curve did get 16 degrees better with the brace on. but once you take it off it just puts her back to the way she was before! This is all so stresful! I'm going to need a very long vacation after she is all healed up!! > > Hi Chelsea, welcome! If your little girl has Progressive Infantile Scoliosis, which it sounds from your post that she does- based on what I've learned here, then a brace probably will not prevent the curve from progressing. I'm not a doctor, but in our case, it would have only led to multiple spinal surgeries, beginning at age 2-3- more likely 2. I know this can all be very overwhelming, especially in the beginning, but it's best to know as early as possible. Knowledge is power. > > The fact that she's in a brace is great, but I would definitely send her X-ray to a Mehta trained doctor near you, as soon as you can. You will need an MRI for most doctors to cast, and that can take some time to get in for in some cities- so it is important to get your ducks in a row, so to speak, sooner rather than later. The human spine grows 50 percent of its entire growth before age 2, and you want to harness that rapid growth as young as possible for casting to work best. > > It can be a cure, if treated properly in time! In this case, the Internet is definitely a good thing. You are in the right place, ask any and all questions. We wish we had found this group a few months younger for our child, believe me : ) You are already being a great advocate for your baby! > > Heidi, Bexon's Mommy, (2 and a half years old, in 6th cast from Salt Lake City Shriners, currently down from 61 degrees to 25 in cast) > > > > > ________________________________ > From: kerplunkmonkey <softballchick105@...> > infantile scoliosis treatment > Sent: Fri, March 26, 2010 6:45:31 PM > Subject: HELP! > > > Hi, my name is Chelsea and as of December of 2009 we got told about our daughters scoliosis. She just turned a year old on march 4th and got her brace a couple days later. we have been taking her to the chiropracter since december and they are the ones that told us about her scoliosis. When she was 3-4 months old i asked my doctor what was wrong with her back because her ribs were sticking out more on her left said and she would just say oh its just a muscle mass just work with her to use her other side, well it got worse. With xrays done at childrens mercy here in kansas she was at a 51 degree curve. Now with the brace on she was at a 34 degree curve. I was just wanting advice from parents if anyone else has the brace and how they got their child used to wearing it or what made you choose to go with casting if you didnt choose the brace! any information will help, as we have no information on anything except what i find on the internet! Thanks -Chelsea > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Just wanted to add that while casting has a few hard parts, it really does just become normal life for your child- I know a lot of other parents will chime in and agree. The water thing- not being able to do full baths, may be the hardest thing- but our son is FULLY mobile and very happy in his cast. He does everything. I'm trying to keep him from climbing on my desk and doing handstands : )The odor has never been a problem, for us, once we got the diapering down, and his legs adjusted to the weight of the cast within a short time. You can see video of him running around, 24 hours after his first cast, on the lower part of the home page of infantilescoliosis.org (at age 19 months).The hardest part for me is fearing the surgeries every 6 months (and sooner, due to complications)- that is why we will continue to cast as long as we can. It is non-invasive and a gentle process- it corrects slowly, sort of like braces on teeth. Heidi, Bexon's Mommy, (2 and a half years old, in 6th cast from Salt Lake City Shriners, currently down from 61 degrees to 25 in cast)From: Chelsea <softballchick105@...>infantile scoliosis treatment Sent: Fri, March 26, 2010 8:20:02 PMSubject: Re: HELP! Hi thanks for replying. We are running into the problem that i feel awful as a parent for putting her in the brace and when she cries for over thirty minutes i do take the brace off. we've had the brace for a week now and i let her play with it before she puts it on and the entire time shes wearing it, its nothing but screaming. shes delayed on her walking due to the scoliosis. When she will walk i have no idea. The brace is very top heavy and her little legs just arent strong enough to support all the weight. We are at a total loss of what to do to help her adjust to it what ways to go about making her like having the brace on, or if we shouldcall the doctor and tell him we want the cast. We just have no idea at this point. We want to do whats best for her and what can hold her spine until shes old enough to have the surgery, its just so hard with her just turning one and screaming, and oh so stressful! I have made sure today that she has her brace on for the amout of time that the doctor wanted, but it was nothing but screaming and tears. i hated having to hear it all day but i knew thats what she needed. and i hope im not the only one that is having the problems of trying to get their kid adjusted to the brace, its just so hard to see her having to wear it and people looking at us like we caused it! UGH! Thank you for your story thought i really appreciate it! -CHelsea > > > From: kerplunkmonkey <softballchick105@ ...> > Subject: [infantile_scoliosi s] HELP! > infantile scoliosis treatment @groups. com > Date: Friday, March 26, 2010, 7:45 PM > > > Â > > > > Hi, my name is Chelsea and as of December of 2009 we got told about our daughters scoliosis. She just turned a year old on march 4th and got her brace a couple days later. we have been taking her to the chiropracter since december and they are the ones that told us about her scoliosis. When she was 3-4 months old i asked my doctor what was wrong with her back because her ribs were sticking out more on her left said and she would just say oh its just a muscle mass just work with her to use her other side, well it got worse. With xrays done at childrens mercy here in kansas she was at a 51 degree curve. Now with the brace on she was at a 34 degree curve. I was just wanting advice from parents if anyone else has the brace and how they got their child used to wearing it or what made you choose to go with casting if you didnt choose the brace! any information will help, as we have no information on anything except what i find on the internet! Thanks -Chelsea > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Just wanted to add that while casting has a few hard parts, it really does just become normal life for your child- I know a lot of other parents will chime in and agree. The water thing- not being able to do full baths, may be the hardest thing- but our son is FULLY mobile and very happy in his cast. He does everything. I'm trying to keep him from climbing on my desk and doing handstands : )The odor has never been a problem, for us, once we got the diapering down, and his legs adjusted to the weight of the cast within a short time. You can see video of him running around, 24 hours after his first cast, on the lower part of the home page of infantilescoliosis.org (at age 19 months).The hardest part for me is fearing the surgeries every 6 months (and sooner, due to complications)- that is why we will continue to cast as long as we can. It is non-invasive and a gentle process- it corrects slowly, sort of like braces on teeth. Heidi, Bexon's Mommy, (2 and a half years old, in 6th cast from Salt Lake City Shriners, currently down from 61 degrees to 25 in cast)From: Chelsea <softballchick105@...>infantile scoliosis treatment Sent: Fri, March 26, 2010 8:20:02 PMSubject: Re: HELP! Hi thanks for replying. We are running into the problem that i feel awful as a parent for putting her in the brace and when she cries for over thirty minutes i do take the brace off. we've had the brace for a week now and i let her play with it before she puts it on and the entire time shes wearing it, its nothing but screaming. shes delayed on her walking due to the scoliosis. When she will walk i have no idea. The brace is very top heavy and her little legs just arent strong enough to support all the weight. We are at a total loss of what to do to help her adjust to it what ways to go about making her like having the brace on, or if we shouldcall the doctor and tell him we want the cast. We just have no idea at this point. We want to do whats best for her and what can hold her spine until shes old enough to have the surgery, its just so hard with her just turning one and screaming, and oh so stressful! I have made sure today that she has her brace on for the amout of time that the doctor wanted, but it was nothing but screaming and tears. i hated having to hear it all day but i knew thats what she needed. and i hope im not the only one that is having the problems of trying to get their kid adjusted to the brace, its just so hard to see her having to wear it and people looking at us like we caused it! UGH! Thank you for your story thought i really appreciate it! -CHelsea > > > From: kerplunkmonkey <softballchick105@ ...> > Subject: [infantile_scoliosi s] HELP! > infantile scoliosis treatment @groups. com > Date: Friday, March 26, 2010, 7:45 PM > > > Â > > > > Hi, my name is Chelsea and as of December of 2009 we got told about our daughters scoliosis. She just turned a year old on march 4th and got her brace a couple days later. we have been taking her to the chiropracter since december and they are the ones that told us about her scoliosis. When she was 3-4 months old i asked my doctor what was wrong with her back because her ribs were sticking out more on her left said and she would just say oh its just a muscle mass just work with her to use her other side, well it got worse. With xrays done at childrens mercy here in kansas she was at a 51 degree curve. Now with the brace on she was at a 34 degree curve. I was just wanting advice from parents if anyone else has the brace and how they got their child used to wearing it or what made you choose to go with casting if you didnt choose the brace! any information will help, as we have no information on anything except what i find on the internet! Thanks -Chelsea > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Oh, yes, I hear you about the vacation! Hang in there. Heidi, Bexon's Mommy, (2 and a half years old, in 6th cast from Salt Lake City Shriners, currently down from 61 degrees to 25 in cast)From: Chelsea <softballchick105@...>infantile scoliosis treatment Sent: Fri, March 26, 2010 8:31:59 PMSubject: Re: HELP! We are going to Childrens Mercy in kansas city,ks and aubrey has gone through a 3 hour MRI to make sure everything was good and has had multiple x-rays. The doctor there said he would not consider surgery until she was around 10-13 years of age and that she would just be going through braces until then. My only concern as you stated is if the brace does not hold it and makes it worse..So I think on monday im going to call and see if we need to switch to the casting just so i dont give in and take the brace off of her like she knows i will do if she crys because i feel awful. or if he wants us to continue with the brace. Her curve did get 16 degrees better with the brace on. but once you take it off it just puts her back to the way she was before! This is all so stresful! I'm going to need a very long vacation after she is all healed up!! > > Hi Chelsea, welcome! If your little girl has Progressive Infantile Scoliosis, which it sounds from your post that she does- based on what I've learned here, then a brace probably will not prevent the curve from progressing. I'm not a doctor, but in our case, it would have only led to multiple spinal surgeries, beginning at age 2-3- more likely 2. I know this can all be very overwhelming, especially in the beginning, but it's best to know as early as possible. Knowledge is power. > > The fact that she's in a brace is great, but I would definitely send her X-ray to a Mehta trained doctor near you, as soon as you can. You will need an MRI for most doctors to cast, and that can take some time to get in for in some cities- so it is important to get your ducks in a row, so to speak, sooner rather than later. The human spine grows 50 percent of its entire growth before age 2, and you want to harness that rapid growth as young as possible for casting to work best. > > It can be a cure, if treated properly in time! In this case, the Internet is definitely a good thing. You are in the right place, ask any and all questions. We wish we had found this group a few months younger for our child, believe me : ) You are already being a great advocate for your baby! > > Heidi, Bexon's Mommy, (2 and a half years old, in 6th cast from Salt Lake City Shriners, currently down from 61 degrees to 25 in cast) > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > From: kerplunkmonkey <softballchick105@ ...> > infantile scoliosis treatment @groups. com > Sent: Fri, March 26, 2010 6:45:31 PM > Subject: [infantile_scoliosi s] HELP! > > > Hi, my name is Chelsea and as of December of 2009 we got told about our daughters scoliosis. She just turned a year old on march 4th and got her brace a couple days later. we have been taking her to the chiropracter since december and they are the ones that told us about her scoliosis. When she was 3-4 months old i asked my doctor what was wrong with her back because her ribs were sticking out more on her left said and she would just say oh its just a muscle mass just work with her to use her other side, well it got worse. With xrays done at childrens mercy here in kansas she was at a 51 degree curve. Now with the brace on she was at a 34 degree curve. I was just wanting advice from parents if anyone else has the brace and how they got their child used to wearing it or what made you choose to go with casting if you didnt choose the brace! any information will help, as we have no information on anything except what i find on the internet! Thanks -Chelsea > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Oh, yes, I hear you about the vacation! Hang in there. Heidi, Bexon's Mommy, (2 and a half years old, in 6th cast from Salt Lake City Shriners, currently down from 61 degrees to 25 in cast)From: Chelsea <softballchick105@...>infantile scoliosis treatment Sent: Fri, March 26, 2010 8:31:59 PMSubject: Re: HELP! We are going to Childrens Mercy in kansas city,ks and aubrey has gone through a 3 hour MRI to make sure everything was good and has had multiple x-rays. The doctor there said he would not consider surgery until she was around 10-13 years of age and that she would just be going through braces until then. My only concern as you stated is if the brace does not hold it and makes it worse..So I think on monday im going to call and see if we need to switch to the casting just so i dont give in and take the brace off of her like she knows i will do if she crys because i feel awful. or if he wants us to continue with the brace. Her curve did get 16 degrees better with the brace on. but once you take it off it just puts her back to the way she was before! This is all so stresful! I'm going to need a very long vacation after she is all healed up!! > > Hi Chelsea, welcome! If your little girl has Progressive Infantile Scoliosis, which it sounds from your post that she does- based on what I've learned here, then a brace probably will not prevent the curve from progressing. I'm not a doctor, but in our case, it would have only led to multiple spinal surgeries, beginning at age 2-3- more likely 2. I know this can all be very overwhelming, especially in the beginning, but it's best to know as early as possible. Knowledge is power. > > The fact that she's in a brace is great, but I would definitely send her X-ray to a Mehta trained doctor near you, as soon as you can. You will need an MRI for most doctors to cast, and that can take some time to get in for in some cities- so it is important to get your ducks in a row, so to speak, sooner rather than later. The human spine grows 50 percent of its entire growth before age 2, and you want to harness that rapid growth as young as possible for casting to work best. > > It can be a cure, if treated properly in time! In this case, the Internet is definitely a good thing. You are in the right place, ask any and all questions. We wish we had found this group a few months younger for our child, believe me : ) You are already being a great advocate for your baby! > > Heidi, Bexon's Mommy, (2 and a half years old, in 6th cast from Salt Lake City Shriners, currently down from 61 degrees to 25 in cast) > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > From: kerplunkmonkey <softballchick105@ ...> > infantile scoliosis treatment @groups. com > Sent: Fri, March 26, 2010 6:45:31 PM > Subject: [infantile_scoliosi s] HELP! > > > Hi, my name is Chelsea and as of December of 2009 we got told about our daughters scoliosis. She just turned a year old on march 4th and got her brace a couple days later. we have been taking her to the chiropracter since december and they are the ones that told us about her scoliosis. When she was 3-4 months old i asked my doctor what was wrong with her back because her ribs were sticking out more on her left said and she would just say oh its just a muscle mass just work with her to use her other side, well it got worse. With xrays done at childrens mercy here in kansas she was at a 51 degree curve. Now with the brace on she was at a 34 degree curve. I was just wanting advice from parents if anyone else has the brace and how they got their child used to wearing it or what made you choose to go with casting if you didnt choose the brace! any information will help, as we have no information on anything except what i find on the internet! Thanks -Chelsea > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Jenn I think on monday im going to go ahead and call my doctor in kansas city and see about the cast, because her curve is at 50 and i do not want it to get worse. And after reading a lot of peoples stories and people sending me messages im really thinking i made the wrong choice with the brace andthat we shoudl have got the cast. Thanks! Chelsea mommy to aubrey 1 year old > > Hi welcome to CAST! As everyone has already said Bracing does not hold > curves in infants and toddlers in progressive cases. I would see about > switching to casting with a Mehta trained doctor with the correct table. > Casting is also the only real way to potentially cure the scoliosis and > avoid surgery all together. > > I have to say my son, Cole, absolutely loves his cast! He decorates it with > us and when they take it off for a switch he actually asks for it back! Last > time when we left the hospital he actually checked to make sure he had it! > He lives such a NORMAL toddler life. He is not limited from doing anything > except bath, swimming and throwing sand. He has never even asked us to take > it off. I know the idea of a body cast seems overwhelming at first, but I am > so glad we choice this treatment and our son doesn't even seem to notice. > > > Jenn > Mommy to Cole, 2 years old, 5th cast from Rochester, 13 degrees out of cast > down from 47, chiari malformation > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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