Guest guest Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 The term " natural " , means different things to different people. What defines natural? Because it is derived from nature, because it goes thru a slight alteration after it is harvested from its natural state, or because it is not synthetically produced? Very few lotions are made using a natural emulsification system, but the finished product is still called natural. Most of the natural products listed as natural are really not natural at all, but are made with naturally derived products, that is, products that may come from an herb, botanical, fruit, or nut. Adding a synthetic fragrance, which is usually less than 1% of the total product, and as long as the consumer is aware of the synthetic fragrance, I still contend the naturally derived product is not unnatural because of a synthetic fragrance addition, but simply fragranced with a synthetic fragrance and should be labeled as such. The fragrance, or additional benefits that come from an essential oil, also less than 1% of the total product does not qualify the product as natural unless the other ingredients in the total formula are actually natural ingredients too; and usually the other ingredients are naturally derived, not in their natural state. Sincerely, http://www.herbalnatures.com Recent Activity 19 New Members Visit Your Group Health Live Better Longer Find new ways to stay healthy. Sell Online Start selling with our award-winning e-commerce tools. Special K Challenge Join others who are losing pounds. . --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 > The term " natural " , means different things to different people. What defines natural? Because it is derived from nature, because it goes thru a slight alteration after it is harvested from its natural state, or because it is not synthetically produced? Very few lotions are made using a natural emulsification system, but the finished product is still called natural. Most of the natural products listed as natural are really not natural at all, but are made with naturally derived products, that is, products that may come from an herb, botanical, fruit, or nut. Adding a synthetic fragrance, which is usually less than 1% of the total product, and as long as the consumer is aware of the synthetic fragrance, I still contend the naturally derived product is not unnatural because of a synthetic fragrance addition, but simply fragranced with a synthetic fragrance and should be labeled as such. The fragrance, or additional benefits that come from an essential oil, also less than 1% of the total product does not qualify the product as natural unless the other ingredients in the total formula are actually natural ingredients too; and usually the other ingredients are naturally derived, not in their natural state. Sincerely, ********** Yes, if the public was an educated one and everyone WERE honest, I would agree with this. But, many customers don't know the difference and some vendors don't tell them either. My Mom has a severe reaction to all of the fake scents out there as I'm sure do others too. She cannot afford to get fooled. - 's - Vintage & Gift Shop 42 Regina Drive - Hubbard, Ohio http://www.scraft-antiqueshop.4t.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 , I am so glad you addressed this issue. So many in this industry take a black & white perspective and get very rigid. They want lotion, they want body wash... well neither can be made truly without using " Un natural " ingredients. There just is no natural emulsifier and no natural surfactant and there is not even a real natural preservative that stands up properly to the job for a product that one can risk their business liability to on a store shelf. We do need to follow the lead of the Big Manufacturers to some degree. They have spent MILLIONS in Research & Development, and in Market Studies. They already know what works and what does not work, what formulates well and what reduces their liability risk from customer reaction (both physical reaction and psychological) to their products. We do not have that same deep pocketbook to cull for testing, research, or liability claims. Many are selling completely untested products based just what someone on the internet or a group told them was safe to use. I am a proponet of Moderation... As safe as possible naturally derived ingredients. Manufactured alternatives whenever the naturals are undesired (as in oxides, ultramarines which are LAB produced and although called " natural " , totally manufactured un natural), expensive (as in sandalwood Eo, Jasmine Eo) or preferrable for product integrity (Ewax NF, BTMS, other emulsifiers), and for functionality... (as in surfactants.. we all like the bubbles... but there are MUCH better alternatives to the sulfates now.. however, none of them occur 'naturally' either). The concept of " natural " is so completely subjective. To one person it is using only essential oils.. which by the way are produced and extracted in less than natural manners. To others it is not using SLES and mineral oils in their products, opting for the less harmful to the skin and environment alternatives. I do believe that there is room for all these perspectives of natural and that it is presumptious of any of use to say someone else's perspective is less natural than the one personally defined by themselves. Just my humble opinion however. It just concerns me greatly when I see people comment how natural their products are compared to other peoples, Again, .. .I love the info you posted, I hope others see the merit.. Bloom Southern Soapers Fragrances ~ " We Have No Common Scents! " http://www.southernsoapers.com > > > The term " natural " , means different things to different people. What defines natural? Because it is derived from nature, because it goes thru a slight alteration after it is harvested from its natural state, or because it is not synthetically produced? > > Very few lotions are made using a natural emulsification system, but the finished product is still called natural. Most of the natural products listed as natural are really not natural at all, but are made with naturally derived products, that is, products that may come from an herb, botanical, fruit, or nut. > > Adding a synthetic fragrance, which is usually less than 1% of the total product, and as long as the consumer is aware of the synthetic fragrance, I still contend the naturally derived product is not unnatural because of a synthetic fragrance addition, but simply fragranced with a synthetic fragrance and should be labeled as such. The fragrance, or additional benefits that come from an essential oil, also less than 1% of the total product does not qualify the product as natural unless the other ingredients in the total formula are actually natural ingredients too; and usually the other ingredients are naturally derived, not in their natural state. > > Sincerely, > > http://www.herbalnatures.com > > Recent Activity > > 19 > New Members > > Visit Your Group > Health > Live Better Longer > Find new ways > to stay healthy. > > Sell Online > Start selling with > our award-winning > e-commerce tools. > > > Special K Challenge > Join others who > are losing pounds. > > > > . > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 , Thank you for your support. I do think it is extremely important, especially for newer members to think about the term " natural " , the qualifiers of such, and the labeling of their products. As you so well pointed out, there are many ingredients that are not " natural " , and yet used to produce a product that may be described as " natural " just because of ONE ingredient. Sincerely, http://www.herbalnatures.com Southern Soapers Fragrances <bloomkj@...> wrote: , I am so glad you addressed this issue. The concept of " natural " is so completely subjective. Just my humble opinion however. It just concerns me greatly when I see people comment how natural their products are compared to other peoples, Again, .. .I love the info you posted, I hope others see the merit.. Bloom Southern Soapers Fragrances ~ " We Have No Common Scents! " http://www.southernsoapers.com Recent Activity 9 New Members Visit Your Group Health Fit for Life Getting fit is now easier than ever. New business? Get new customers. List your web site in Search. Drive Traffic Sponsored Search can help increase your site traffic. . --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2008 Report Share Posted January 16, 2008 I think that natural should be completely untouched and pure ingrediants. Many of the added things do more harm than good McCullough <herbaltech2@...> wrote: , Thank you for your support. I do think it is extremely important, especially for newer members to think about the term " natural " , the qualifiers of such, and the labeling of their products. As you so well pointed out, there are many ingredients that are not " natural " , and yet used to produce a product that may be described as " natural " just because of ONE ingredient. Sincerely, http://www.herbalnatures.com Southern Soapers Fragrances <bloomkj@...> wrote: , I am so glad you addressed this issue. The concept of " natural " is so completely subjective. Just my humble opinion however. It just concerns me greatly when I see people comment how natural their products are compared to other peoples, Again, .. .I love the info you posted, I hope others see the merit.. Bloom Southern Soapers Fragrances ~ " We Have No Common Scents! " http://www.southernsoapers.com Recent Activity 9 New Members Visit Your Group Health Fit for Life Getting fit is now easier than ever. New business? Get new customers. List your web site in Search. Drive Traffic Sponsored Search can help increase your site traffic. ... --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 >I think that natural should be completely untouched and pure ingrediants. Many of the added things do >more harm than good Then I doubt any products would be " natural " by your definition. Even an Organic Oil wouldn't be natural since it is certainly not " untouched " . And not every thing " natural " is harmless. Poison ivy is just one example. Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 , I am a little confused at your response. And I do agree that education is the key to making sure the consumer knows what they are getting. My point regarding lotions is a lotion cannot become a lotion and still be a natural product when the lotion is made with an emulsification system like eWax, polawax, etc. Natural might be an oil that is cold pressed and used straight up, but certainly not after it has been incorporated into a lotion. At that point, it becomes a naturally derived product. Also, keep in mind, many fragrance oils use essential oils too. Just because a lotion or whatever is labeled natural does not mean it is! And, arsenic is natural too, but we certainly don't want to use it in our lotions! Essential Oils, as well as fragrance oils, are very powerful oils. I agree, there are manufacturers who do not label products with the exact ingredients - some of this labeling practice is legal, some is not. How is it that your mother is not being fooled? Because someone labels a bottle of lotion as natural? That alone does not protect your mother. Sincerely, Shipton <dianas42@...> wrote: > The term " natural " , means different things to different people. What defines natural? Because it is derived from nature, because it goes thru a slight alteration after it is harvested from its natural state, or because it is not synthetically produced? Very few lotions are made using a natural emulsification system, but the finished product is still called natural. Most of the natural products listed as natural are really not natural at all, but are made with naturally derived products, that is, products that may come from an herb, botanical, fruit, or nut. Adding a synthetic fragrance, which is usually less than 1% of the total product, and as long as the consumer is aware of the synthetic fragrance, I still contend the naturally derived product is not unnatural because of a synthetic fragrance addition, but simply fragranced with a synthetic fragrance and should be labeled as such. The fragrance, or additional benefits that come from an essential oil, also less than 1% of the total product does not qualify the product as natural unless the other ingredients in the total formula are actually natural ingredients too; and usually the other ingredients are naturally derived, not in their natural state. Sincerely, ********** Yes, if the public was an educated one and everyone WERE honest, I would agree with this. But, many customers don't know the difference and some vendors don't tell them either. My Mom has a severe reaction to all of the fake scents out there as I'm sure do others too. She cannot afford to get fooled. - 's - Vintage & Gift Shop 42 Regina Drive - Hubbard, Ohio http://www.scraft-antiqueshop.4t.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 >Adding a synthetic fragrance, which is usually less than 1% of the total product, and as long as the consumer is aware of the synthetic fragrance, I still contend the naturally derived product is not unnatural because of a synthetic fragrance addition< It all depends upon whose " definition " of natural you are going to follow. Including synthetic fragrances would prevent you from calling your product natural, if you took the NIRC pledge, for example; " Soap labeled as " natural soap " may not contain the addition of any synthetic or artificial ingredients including but not limited to artificial colors, synthetic fragrances, man-made vitamins, solvent extracted oils or additional glycerin. " http://www.naturalingredient.org/pledge.htm Soon, there will be another organization's definition, too! " Natural Products Association Work Group Aims to Define " Natural " for Personal Care Products Saturday, July 21, 2007 The association plans on providing a standard definition within a year. July 21, 2007 - Las Vegas, Nev. - The Natural Products Association has formed a work group to determine a definition for the term " natural " as it applies to personal care products. The association is encouraging broad participation from its members who have a stake in natural personal care, especially those who manufacture and distribute these products. There is currently no legal or regulatory definition of the word " natural " as it applies to cosmetics, health and beauty care. " Arriving at a clear definition for use of the word natural is something both our industry and consumers want, " said Fabricant, Ph.D., vice president of scientific and regulatory affairs for the Natural Products Association, who is staffing the work group. " There has already been a strong foundation laid for use of this term. With active participation by the work group and outreach we are certain to arrive at a definition that industry and others will embrace. " The work group is chaired by Mike Indursky of Burt's Bees, and other participants include Aubrey Organics, and Dr. Bronner's Magic Soaps. The goal of the group is to have a working definition of the term natural within a year. Those interested in participating should contact Dr. Fabricant at (202) 223-0101, ext. 102. The Natural Products Association is the nation's largest and oldest non-profit organization dedicated to the natural products industry. The association represents nearly 10,000 retailers, manufacturers, wholesalers and distributors of natural products, including foods, dietary supplements, and health/beauty aids. " Kayla Fioravanti 503.722.7557 Office / 503.905.8015 Fax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Dear Kayla, The definition of the NIRC is concerning the labeling of the soap - it cannot be labeled " all natural " , if it contains the addition of any synthetic or artificial ingredients including but not limited to artificial colors, synthetic fragrances, man-made vitamins, solvent extracted oils or additional glycerin. " My point is if a product is made with ingredients that are naturally derived, not natural, then it is not the addition of a synthetic fragrance that makes it " unnatural " , it is a combination of things like the emulsifier and oils that have been solvent extracted, for example, that have already made the product a naturally derived product and not a natural product. The pledge is taken not to pledge to only use " natural " ingredients, but to strive to use the most natural ingredients available, and to label your products honestly, and with integrity. Thank you for posting the link to the NIRC. I am a member, and board member of that group. Sincerely, http://www.herbalnatures.com ew_promo@... wrote: >Adding a synthetic fragrance, which is usually less than 1% of the total product, and as long as the consumer is aware of the synthetic fragrance, I still contend the naturally derived product is not unnatural because of a synthetic fragrance addition< It all depends upon whose " definition " of natural you are going to follow. Including synthetic fragrances would prevent you from calling your product natural, if you took the NIRC pledge, for example; " Soap labeled as " natural soap " may not contain the addition of any synthetic or artificial ingredients including but not limited to artificial colors, synthetic fragrances, man-made vitamins, solvent extracted oils or additional glycerin. " http://www.naturalingredient.org/pledge.htm Soon, there will be another organization's definition, too! " Natural Products Association Work Group Aims to Define " Natural " for Personal Care Products Saturday, July 21, 2007 The association plans on providing a standard definition within a year. July 21, 2007 - Las Vegas, Nev. - The Natural Products Association has formed a work group to determine a definition for the term " natural " as it applies to personal care products. The association is encouraging broad participation from its members who have a stake in natural personal care, especially those who manufacture and distribute these products. There is currently no legal or regulatory definition of the word " natural " as it applies to cosmetics, health and beauty care. " Arriving at a clear definition for use of the word natural is something both our industry and consumers want, " said Fabricant, Ph.D., vice president of scientific and regulatory affairs for the Natural Products Association, who is staffing the work group. " There has already been a strong foundation laid for use of this term. With active participation by the work group and outreach we are certain to arrive at a definition that industry and others will embrace. " The work group is chaired by Mike Indursky of Burt's Bees, and other participants include Aubrey Organics, and Dr. Bronner's Magic Soaps. The goal of the group is to have a working definition of the term natural within a year. Those interested in participating should contact Dr. Fabricant at (202) 223-0101, ext. 102. The Natural Products Association is the nation's largest and oldest non-profit organization dedicated to the natural products industry. The association represents nearly 10,000 retailers, manufacturers, wholesalers and distributors of natural products, including foods, dietary supplements, and health/beauty aids. " Kayla Fioravanti 503.722.7557 Office / 503.905.8015 Fax --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 " , I am a little confused at your response. And I do agree that education is the key to making sure the consumer knows what they are getting. " ********** This is why I said that IF all sellers were honest about exactly what they used so the customers knew what they were buying I would have no problem with what they use. I think even an honest seller might not understand the need for full disclosure and can unknowingly cause a mishap for a buyer - so this is why labeling is so important. A seller can't possibly know all of the allergies/reactions or the preferences of their buyers so this is why the best solution is to leave no room for error on their part. If they said said something like " 85% organic... " , listed everything and then exactly what the other 15% was - then the customers could feel secure in what they are buying and the whole industry would not be getting such a black eye all of the time. And by the way, I don't remember who said it, but I never said my products were better - just that I tell my customers exactly what is in my products and why. They decide what they want to buy. I have some who buy my products for certain reasons and they still sometimes will buy (from someone else) one of those glittery strong scented products because they like them. I do not bad mouth the ones that sell those things. If a customer want to know the difference, I tell them why I don't use those things, but I don't tell them not to. That is their business. Someone on the group asked for OPINIONS about what we considered to be a natural product - I gave my OPINION for ME. " My point regarding lotions is a lotion cannot become a lotion and still be a natural product when the lotion is made with an emulsification system like eWax, polawax, etc. Natural might be an oil that is cold pressed and used straight up, but certainly not after it has been incorporated into a lotion. At that point, it becomes a naturally derived product. " ********** I agree that if these things are used, the product is no longer ALL natural. And, again, as long as the ingredients were clearly labeled as to what is what, I have no problem with that. " Also, keep in mind, many fragrance oils use essential oils too. Just because a lotion or whatever is labeled natural does not mean it is! And, arsenic is natural too, but we certainly don't want to use it in our lotions! Essential Oils, as well as fragrance oils, are very powerful oils. I agree, there are manufacturers who do not label products with the exact ingredients - some of this labeling practice is legal, some is not. " ********** Yes, sometimes there are some essential oils in some fragrances, but I choose not to use F.O.s because I do not to use anything that is not needed. I can get the scents I want by infusing herbs and flowers. Yes it takes more time and more work, but to ME it is like eating at Mcs vs. cooking from scratch. Yes, cooking from scratch takes a long time and it is a LOT more work - but I know what is in my food that way. It is what I choose, for me and my family. Others may not agree and may not want to go to that much work, but it is something I want to do for my family to give them every chance at better health. Yes, I know that not everything that is natural is good for you - LOL I would not put arsenic in my food. I do not use food coloring or dyes in my food or my products either. I don't need it to make my food taste good or to be nutritious whether or not it is considered " natural " and I dont need these things in my products to take care of my skin - so I don't want to use them. Again, if someone really wants a hot pink glittery soap, go ahead - but I don't want it and I wont make it either because it goes agaist what I believe. That does not mean that I am going to try to force anyone to quit buying those things, but again if someone wants my opinion - they will get it. " How is it that your mother is not being fooled? Because someone labels a bottle of lotion as natural? That alone does not protect your mother. Sincerely, " The problem is that because so many sellers use fragrance oils and still call their products " natural " is that folks with allergies may NOT know the difference and end up getting hurt because of the lack of full disclosure. This doesn't mean that a seller would purposely lie (most anyway), but if they themselves don't understand what they are using and/or the possible danger that these ingredients can hold - it could have very bad consequences for the buyers out there. This holds true for E.O.s and all ingredients too - these have to be used carefully and the buyer needs to know what is in each product. Some folks have allergies to natural things too. It is similar to those with a nut allergy. If a buyer does not know that his/her stir-fry was made using peanut oil, that could have a terrible end. So the responsible cook/restaurant owner would be wise to be able to inform his/her diners what was used in each dish and how the food was prepared if asked. Now as to the last sentence, that is exactly my point. Calling something " natural " does not make it so. And even if it really is ALL Natural - it needs labeled well for the benefit of the consumer. A person cannot protect themself without the proper labeling. Thank you for this in depth discussion. I think it may help all of us to understand how important labeling is to both us and our customers. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ --------------------------- > The term " natural " , means different things to different people. What defines natural? Because it is derived from nature, because it goes thru a slight alteration after it is harvested from its natural state, or because it is not synthetically produced? Very few lotions are made using a natural emulsification system, but the finished product is still called natural. Most of the natural products listed as natural are really not natural at all, but are made with naturally derived products, that is, products that may come from an herb, botanical, fruit, or nut. Adding a synthetic fragrance, which is usually less than 1% of the total product, and as long as the consumer is aware of the synthetic fragrance, I still contend the naturally derived product is not unnatural because of a synthetic fragrance addition, but simply fragranced with a synthetic fragrance and should be labeled as such. The fragrance, or additional benefits that come from an essential oil, also less than 1% of the total product does not qualify the product as natural unless the other ingredients in the total formula are actually natural ingredients too; and usually the other ingredients are naturally derived, not in their natural state. Sincerely, ********** Yes, if the public was an educated one and everyone WERE honest, I would agree with this. But, many customers don't know the difference and some vendors don't tell them either. My Mom has a severe reaction to all of the fake scents out there as I'm sure do others too. She cannot afford to get fooled. - 's - Vintage & Gift Shop 42 Regina Drive - Hubbard, Ohio http://www.scr aft-antiqueshop. 4t.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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