Guest guest Posted April 21, 2007 Report Share Posted April 21, 2007 " An accent or dialect is ok, but just sloppy speech is something else. " I had a drama teacher who happened to believe that the 'Leeds' dialect was just 'lazy' speech - it was not in my opinion btw. > > > In a message dated 4/20/2007 11:58:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > handwritingrepair@... writes: > > Someone who regards the " f " as a spoken badge of industry could with > equal justice and reason call Julius Caesar and his legions a gang of > negligent lip-lazy lay-abouts because, after all, where we say > " father " they said " pater " ... > > > Kate Gladstone > > > > My comment was specific to the English language, not others contemporary or > ancient. I myself have not hired people for jobs due to sloppy speech. An > accent or dialect is ok, but just sloppy speech is something else. > > > > > > ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2007 Report Share Posted April 21, 2007 " If more and more English-speakers do not acquire or use an /f/- sound, then sooner or later the English of native speakers will have become /f/-less:... " I seriously doubt that will happen given how much some of the younger generations seem to like and profusely use the f' (curse) word. > > I agree, entirely, that what literate (or otherwise influential) > people command/accept/forbid can change — indeed, perpetually changes > — across the years and centuries. > > And I claim no vast familiarity with the casual speech of young folks. > (More often than not, I deal with them in formal rather than informal > settings. I don't doubt that I may well hear /opis/ — or even /pather/ > — tomorrow! > > > While I did not speak about 'lazy louts' I will say that we are > > discussing people whose first language is English and not other > > languages or people who have learned English as a second language. > > Agreeing to this, I wonder what will happen if /f/ becomes /p/ in > wider and wider usage: e.g., when today's youngsters grow up and teach > their own children to speak. > If more and more English-speakers do not acquire or use an > /f/-sound, then sooner or later the English of native speakers will > have become /f/-less: just as it became /kn/-less language about 500 > years ago (we no longer pronounce he first consonant in /knee/)... and > just as it had become /gh/-less a bit earlier, when folks stopped > pronouncing the final consonant in /bough/ (or started changing it to > something else as in " rough " ). Once the native speakers of English no > longer have /f/ (as English-speakers no longer have /gh/ and no longer > have /k/-before-/n/), will this mean that every native speaker speaks > lazily? Or will it mean that no one does? > > > > Mixing apples and oranges is rarely a good way to debate a subject, > > Kate. > > Equating another's opinions and questions to a combination of fruits > rarely expresses a matter well. > > > > Kate Gladstone > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2007 Report Share Posted April 21, 2007 " If more and more English-speakers do not acquire or use an /f/- sound, then sooner or later the English of native speakers will have become /f/-less:... " I seriously doubt that will happen given how much some of the younger generations seem to like and profusely use the f' (curse) word. > > I agree, entirely, that what literate (or otherwise influential) > people command/accept/forbid can change — indeed, perpetually changes > — across the years and centuries. > > And I claim no vast familiarity with the casual speech of young folks. > (More often than not, I deal with them in formal rather than informal > settings. I don't doubt that I may well hear /opis/ — or even /pather/ > — tomorrow! > > > While I did not speak about 'lazy louts' I will say that we are > > discussing people whose first language is English and not other > > languages or people who have learned English as a second language. > > Agreeing to this, I wonder what will happen if /f/ becomes /p/ in > wider and wider usage: e.g., when today's youngsters grow up and teach > their own children to speak. > If more and more English-speakers do not acquire or use an > /f/-sound, then sooner or later the English of native speakers will > have become /f/-less: just as it became /kn/-less language about 500 > years ago (we no longer pronounce he first consonant in /knee/)... and > just as it had become /gh/-less a bit earlier, when folks stopped > pronouncing the final consonant in /bough/ (or started changing it to > something else as in " rough " ). Once the native speakers of English no > longer have /f/ (as English-speakers no longer have /gh/ and no longer > have /k/-before-/n/), will this mean that every native speaker speaks > lazily? Or will it mean that no one does? > > > > Mixing apples and oranges is rarely a good way to debate a subject, > > Kate. > > Equating another's opinions and questions to a combination of fruits > rarely expresses a matter well. > > > > Kate Gladstone > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2007 Report Share Posted April 21, 2007 In a message dated 4/21/2007 12:57:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, julie.stevenson16@... writes: "An accent or dialect is ok, but just sloppy speech is something else."I had a drama teacher who happened to believe that the 'Leeds' dialect was just 'lazy' speech - it was not in my opinion btw. There aren't exactly dialects around here, but there are regional accents. It is fairly easy to pick out long time residents from certain counties, for example, because of speech patterns or accent. See what's free at AOL.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2007 Report Share Posted April 21, 2007 I said: "Whether you know it or not Kate, you have touched on a raging argument that takes place in academic circles. "Some say that language is fluidic, like an organism, and changes with time, and that this change ought to be reflected in the dictionary. Others say that the language as it is should remain unchanged and all should follow it." Kate asked: "Which schools of thought in linguistics follow the second camp?" I am not sure that we have a name for them in the US. In Britain, one of them has a name... http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?p=%22national+literacy+trust%22+language+%22stay+the+same%22 & ei=UTF-8 & fr=yfp-t-449 & fp_ip=CA & x=wrt & meta=0 & u=www.literacytrust.org.uk/Database/language.html & w=%22national+literacy+trust%22+language+%22stay+the+same%22 & d=bibfWvmdOnj2 & icp=1 & .intl=us Email undermines standard of written English? British marketing consultancy firm The Fourth Room conducted a survey to gauge the extent of the nation's literacy on the web and found that the use of email has had a devastating impact on the standard of written English. According to the research, computer users today are too lazy to hit the 'shift' buttons on their keyboards - emails are frequently written entirely in lower case, with no capital letters for names or the beginning of sentences. Chief Executive officer Piers Schmidt commented: Language is a living thing. You can't expect it to stay the same. And with the internet, email and mobile phone messaging, the changes happen much more quickly. In the space of just a few years a new language has developed - we call it weblish instead of standard English. It's a sort of shorthand for the 21st century. The latest edition of the Oxford English Dictionary includes 62 new words representing the changes in our communication culture including e-commerce, dot.com and webcam. Simpson, chief editor of the dictionary says, "The standards may be different now but it has certainly encouraged writing and communication. And that means a faster development of language change. There are a whole raft of words that either come from the internet or where the internet has given them new meanings. The Queen's English Society says it wants to "defend the precision, subtlety and marvellous richness of our language against debasement, ambiguity and other forms of misuse." (Daily Mirror, 26 January 2001) Kate said: "As far as I know, ALL living languages have changed and continue to change: even the ones with regulatory agencies (such as French), recent dates of invention (such as Esperanto), and/or lengthy and highly conservative literary traditions (such as Icelandic, Greek, andGaelic — languages often cited as "unchanging," but which in fact have undergone major vowel-shifts, and [in the cases of Greek and Gaelic] also major consonant-shifts and grammar-shifts along with some change in spelling since the days of their classical literature) "To stop a language changing, Tom, you have to kill it. Life means change, for languages as for organisms." Alternatively, you could tell people to use words that already exist instead of inventing new words for things that already have words describing them. I snipped out this history lesson, which was quite interesting. But one needs to remember that all that took place in a time when few could read, when literacy among those who could read was low, printed texts were few, and printed texts were beyond the range of affordability for most people. In this day and age, the majority of people in civilized society can read, most of these readers are literate, print is abundant, and paper, newspapers, magazines, and books are cheap. In the early half of the last century, the Chicago Tribune tried to develop its own abbreviated language to write its articles with. The attempt fell flat. It was a lone flare in a sky darkened with standardized newsprint. Grammar, spelling, punctuation, and words choice remain intact from when all this was agreed upon. The one appropriate variation that occurs is the adding of words to the language that I can think of is when we name an invention or new species of palnt or animal. Slang and colloquialisms stem from socially inappropriate origins and ought to be removed from the lexicon forever. "Tom, if you really oppose all changes in a language, then I must wonder whether you practice what you preach: do you indeed carefully avoid (for instance) "the house is being built"? There is no grammatical rule which says that the passive voice MUST be avoided. It is merely recommended that it be avoided. I would say "The house is being built", but I would not say "House the is built being", or "Being built the house is", nor would I say "He be building the house," or "The pad is being knocked up." "Since you do not speak and write (say) the English of the year 1066, I presume that you in fact do not oppose language changes that occurred before some particular date (while continuing to oppose the changes that occurred after the designated moment)." Let's take a look at Shakespeare's time. Some of what I tell you is laid out in The Riverside Shakespeare. I do not have it in front of me, but I know what it says. Having studied Shakespeare extensively in college, I know that he wrote plays from beginning to the end, but revised them from the end to the beginning. He did this repeatedly, sometimes leaving plays unrevised halfway from the end forward. Thus you will see big plot continuity problems in his plays and folios. Spelling was inconsistent throughout the play because standardized spelling did not exist. Thus knight could be spelled knight, knighte, knite, knyght, knyghte, knyte, night, nite, nyght, nyte, nit, nyt. The words night and knit could even have the same spellings as the aforementioned words. There is some evidence to suggest that Shakespeare was not careless with his choice of spelling. If he needed to ryhme a word, for example, he would change the spelling of a word to get the rhyme, even if he just used the same word twice in one line. However, because most of the actors performing his plays (very seldom were thre actresses. Men played the female roles by dressing up as women) couldn't read, his written plays were for his reference only. It is a good bet that in Shakespeare's time, every single one of his plays was never performed the same way twice because actors had to memorize lines, and what they didn't memorize, they improvised. But Shakespeare WAS keen on having certain lines being performed, and those were where he made those special spellings to force rhymes to occur in certain places. When people began to read, and when print became cheap and affordable, standardization began to occur. Rules of grammar were developed, and all these rules remain mostly unchanged ever since. I would have to do some research to determine when the version of English we see in most modern American dictionaries was specifically defined, but the understanding was that the words used and the way in which they were used, as defined in the dictionary and certain grammar books (I think Strunk and White may be the grammar book I am thinking of) was supposed to be the end all be all of language and grammar except in the cases of naming things that previously had no name. This includes verbs, incidentally. Before the invention of a typewriter, the word "keyboarding" did not exist. "May I therefore ask: What date you regard as the latest permissible date for a change in English or any other language? May I also ask the criterion whereby you chose that date as the latest permissible date for a change?" I have already explained this but will do so again. My university told me while going through teacher training that in American schools, Webster's American English dictionary is the dictionary of choice for settling all disputes over definition, spelling, pronounciation, syllabification, and (to the extent that it discusses grammar and punctuation) grammar and punctuation, and that, were the United States to mandate English as its national language, American English as described in Webster's would be what was adopted. Which edition is used, and what the cutoff date would be, I do not know. If it were me, and I could design a dictionary of my choice, I would prohibit Websters from ever deleting archaic words unless the objects, actions, or activities they describe have ceased to exist. "(Given your opposition to changes in languages, I would of course like to know whether you, yourself, use the word "ascertain" as people used it in the year 1712, or as people normally use it in the year 2007.)" I would much prefer its original definition. Every time I use "Terrific!" to mean "Well done!" instead of "That's terrifying!" I feel ignorant. " ... if you lived in France today, would you lead some kind of crusade to bring back pre-Revolutionary pronunciations, I wonder ... ?" I know very little about the French language. I can tell you that I much prefer the sort of formal American English that my grandmother spoke than the off-the-cuff-beer-in-the-hand- slangy-vulgarity-filled, lazy language we have today. I am up here in Canada now with raven, and I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to have conversations that are constituted of multi-syllablic words. The downside is that every time we circulate with people outside of house, our language must descend into twittering idiocy to make ourselves understood to those which seem to have adapted the monosyllabic variety of English. (Most everyone these days, in other words). Tom Administrator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2007 Report Share Posted April 21, 2007 I said: "Whether you know it or not Kate, you have touched on a raging argument that takes place in academic circles. "Some say that language is fluidic, like an organism, and changes with time, and that this change ought to be reflected in the dictionary. Others say that the language as it is should remain unchanged and all should follow it." Kate asked: "Which schools of thought in linguistics follow the second camp?" I am not sure that we have a name for them in the US. In Britain, one of them has a name... http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?p=%22national+literacy+trust%22+language+%22stay+the+same%22 & ei=UTF-8 & fr=yfp-t-449 & fp_ip=CA & x=wrt & meta=0 & u=www.literacytrust.org.uk/Database/language.html & w=%22national+literacy+trust%22+language+%22stay+the+same%22 & d=bibfWvmdOnj2 & icp=1 & .intl=us Email undermines standard of written English? British marketing consultancy firm The Fourth Room conducted a survey to gauge the extent of the nation's literacy on the web and found that the use of email has had a devastating impact on the standard of written English. According to the research, computer users today are too lazy to hit the 'shift' buttons on their keyboards - emails are frequently written entirely in lower case, with no capital letters for names or the beginning of sentences. Chief Executive officer Piers Schmidt commented: Language is a living thing. You can't expect it to stay the same. And with the internet, email and mobile phone messaging, the changes happen much more quickly. In the space of just a few years a new language has developed - we call it weblish instead of standard English. It's a sort of shorthand for the 21st century. The latest edition of the Oxford English Dictionary includes 62 new words representing the changes in our communication culture including e-commerce, dot.com and webcam. Simpson, chief editor of the dictionary says, "The standards may be different now but it has certainly encouraged writing and communication. And that means a faster development of language change. There are a whole raft of words that either come from the internet or where the internet has given them new meanings. The Queen's English Society says it wants to "defend the precision, subtlety and marvellous richness of our language against debasement, ambiguity and other forms of misuse." (Daily Mirror, 26 January 2001) Kate said: "As far as I know, ALL living languages have changed and continue to change: even the ones with regulatory agencies (such as French), recent dates of invention (such as Esperanto), and/or lengthy and highly conservative literary traditions (such as Icelandic, Greek, andGaelic — languages often cited as "unchanging," but which in fact have undergone major vowel-shifts, and [in the cases of Greek and Gaelic] also major consonant-shifts and grammar-shifts along with some change in spelling since the days of their classical literature) "To stop a language changing, Tom, you have to kill it. Life means change, for languages as for organisms." Alternatively, you could tell people to use words that already exist instead of inventing new words for things that already have words describing them. I snipped out this history lesson, which was quite interesting. But one needs to remember that all that took place in a time when few could read, when literacy among those who could read was low, printed texts were few, and printed texts were beyond the range of affordability for most people. In this day and age, the majority of people in civilized society can read, most of these readers are literate, print is abundant, and paper, newspapers, magazines, and books are cheap. In the early half of the last century, the Chicago Tribune tried to develop its own abbreviated language to write its articles with. The attempt fell flat. It was a lone flare in a sky darkened with standardized newsprint. Grammar, spelling, punctuation, and words choice remain intact from when all this was agreed upon. The one appropriate variation that occurs is the adding of words to the language that I can think of is when we name an invention or new species of palnt or animal. Slang and colloquialisms stem from socially inappropriate origins and ought to be removed from the lexicon forever. "Tom, if you really oppose all changes in a language, then I must wonder whether you practice what you preach: do you indeed carefully avoid (for instance) "the house is being built"? There is no grammatical rule which says that the passive voice MUST be avoided. It is merely recommended that it be avoided. I would say "The house is being built", but I would not say "House the is built being", or "Being built the house is", nor would I say "He be building the house," or "The pad is being knocked up." "Since you do not speak and write (say) the English of the year 1066, I presume that you in fact do not oppose language changes that occurred before some particular date (while continuing to oppose the changes that occurred after the designated moment)." Let's take a look at Shakespeare's time. Some of what I tell you is laid out in The Riverside Shakespeare. I do not have it in front of me, but I know what it says. Having studied Shakespeare extensively in college, I know that he wrote plays from beginning to the end, but revised them from the end to the beginning. He did this repeatedly, sometimes leaving plays unrevised halfway from the end forward. Thus you will see big plot continuity problems in his plays and folios. Spelling was inconsistent throughout the play because standardized spelling did not exist. Thus knight could be spelled knight, knighte, knite, knyght, knyghte, knyte, night, nite, nyght, nyte, nit, nyt. The words night and knit could even have the same spellings as the aforementioned words. There is some evidence to suggest that Shakespeare was not careless with his choice of spelling. If he needed to ryhme a word, for example, he would change the spelling of a word to get the rhyme, even if he just used the same word twice in one line. However, because most of the actors performing his plays (very seldom were thre actresses. Men played the female roles by dressing up as women) couldn't read, his written plays were for his reference only. It is a good bet that in Shakespeare's time, every single one of his plays was never performed the same way twice because actors had to memorize lines, and what they didn't memorize, they improvised. But Shakespeare WAS keen on having certain lines being performed, and those were where he made those special spellings to force rhymes to occur in certain places. When people began to read, and when print became cheap and affordable, standardization began to occur. Rules of grammar were developed, and all these rules remain mostly unchanged ever since. I would have to do some research to determine when the version of English we see in most modern American dictionaries was specifically defined, but the understanding was that the words used and the way in which they were used, as defined in the dictionary and certain grammar books (I think Strunk and White may be the grammar book I am thinking of) was supposed to be the end all be all of language and grammar except in the cases of naming things that previously had no name. This includes verbs, incidentally. Before the invention of a typewriter, the word "keyboarding" did not exist. "May I therefore ask: What date you regard as the latest permissible date for a change in English or any other language? May I also ask the criterion whereby you chose that date as the latest permissible date for a change?" I have already explained this but will do so again. My university told me while going through teacher training that in American schools, Webster's American English dictionary is the dictionary of choice for settling all disputes over definition, spelling, pronounciation, syllabification, and (to the extent that it discusses grammar and punctuation) grammar and punctuation, and that, were the United States to mandate English as its national language, American English as described in Webster's would be what was adopted. Which edition is used, and what the cutoff date would be, I do not know. If it were me, and I could design a dictionary of my choice, I would prohibit Websters from ever deleting archaic words unless the objects, actions, or activities they describe have ceased to exist. "(Given your opposition to changes in languages, I would of course like to know whether you, yourself, use the word "ascertain" as people used it in the year 1712, or as people normally use it in the year 2007.)" I would much prefer its original definition. Every time I use "Terrific!" to mean "Well done!" instead of "That's terrifying!" I feel ignorant. " ... if you lived in France today, would you lead some kind of crusade to bring back pre-Revolutionary pronunciations, I wonder ... ?" I know very little about the French language. I can tell you that I much prefer the sort of formal American English that my grandmother spoke than the off-the-cuff-beer-in-the-hand- slangy-vulgarity-filled, lazy language we have today. I am up here in Canada now with raven, and I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to have conversations that are constituted of multi-syllablic words. The downside is that every time we circulate with people outside of house, our language must descend into twittering idiocy to make ourselves understood to those which seem to have adapted the monosyllabic variety of English. (Most everyone these days, in other words). 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Guest guest Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 On one occsion a site that was posted on this forum would not allow me access as I was outside the USA and to my recollection the site was something to do with a comedian. > > " And I can remember my " Computer Science " teacher (in college, about > 1978) giving a whole list of reasons why a global computer network > could never work — not among civilians, at any rate ... " > > A global computer network doesn't work. > > If you think we have one, you are kidding yourself. > > If we had a global computer network, then everything which is > censored worldwide would be available for consumption by every user > just as a global currency would mean that every denomination could > be used by every user. > > If we were hooked up to censored portions of Russia, then > > 1) You could access what we call child porn since the age of consent > over there is 12, if I am not mistaken. > > 2) The Chinese people could access more of the American internet, > much of which has been blocked from them by their government. > > 3) Many Arab and Communist governments censor access to western > internet, and > > 4) (Sometimes) we cannot access the internets of other countries > when we are at war with them and they cannot access our internet > when they are at war with us. > > Tom > Administrator > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 Kate it would help me if you either quoted what you are responding to or left part the original post you are responding to after your post. I am assuming you are are responding to Raven here (because you addressed Raven), but I am not sure exactly in what context as there is no point of reference. I am not trying to be awkward here, just to understand in context to what you are referring to and quotes and other references would really help me with that. > > Raven, I don't understand why (apparently) you assume that we cannot > compare one language (or variety of a language) with another. > > The same phenomena affect different languages (and their speakers) at > different times — just as the phenomenon of gravity affects apples and > oranges. Knowing the differences between apples and oranges (and the > differences between a fruit grown today and its perhaps extinct > ancestor) does not make it sensible to call " incorrect " the fall of an > apple in the year 2007 AD while accepting as " correct " (say) the fall > of an orange in the year 207 AD or 2007 BC. > > > Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone - > handwritingrepair@... - telephone 518/482-6763 > Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest > http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair > 325 South Manning Boulevard > Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA > Order books through my site! > (Amazon.com link gets me 5% - 15% commission) > And sign the " Politician Legibility Act " Petition: > http://www.iPetitions.com/petition/PoliticianLegibility > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 wrote: " On one occsion a site that was posted on this forum would not allow me access as I was outside the USA and to my recollection the site was something to do with a comedian. " I've had similar things happen as well with being disallowed to view a legitimate site (G rated) because it is in the US and I am not. Raven Co-Administrator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 > National laws against public use of a non-official> language have, historically, meant laws against books and newspapers> in any non-official language: because books and newspapers appear> publicly for sale, and people often read books and newspapers in> public ... today, enforcing such laws could also mean forbidding> websites to use non-official languages, because one can access the Net> in public places. If the USA had an English-only-in-public law, people> could easily go to jail for straying into the "wrong" web-sites ... )I've found a recent article along this line although now I'm unsure who posted this thought. Kim http://news./s/nm/20070420/od_nm/belgium_language_odd_dc_1 BRUSSELS (Reuters) - A Belgian auto parts supplier has forbidden its workers to speak any language other than Dutch, even during their lunch break, and employees could be fired if they disobey. "We have people from Italy, India, Poland, Algeria here. It's to avoid cliques forming here and there," said Geert Vermote, human resources manager of HP Pelzer in the town of Genk in Belgium's Dutch-speaking Flanders region. Language is a sensitive topic in Belgium, particularly in Flanders where locals and politicians are keen to promote the use of Dutch and prevent the encroachment of the country's other main language, French. Two staff at HP Pelzer have so far received written warnings, out of a workforce of 125 employees, some 70 percent of whom are of foreign origin. Three warnings would lead to a worker being fired. Belgian newspaper De Standaard reported Thursday that workers of Turkish origin, who make up some 35 percent of the company's workforce, felt the rule was aimed against them and had asked the union to intervene. Vermote said the rule had been agreed with the company's works council and said the "three strikes" rule applied to warnings of any form. "It's really nothing other than other rules we have, such as a ban on smoking," he said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 Re: > I had a drama teacher who happened to believe that the 'Leeds' > dialect was just 'lazy' speech - it was not in my opinion btw. > > Yes — if non-standard varieties happened to coincide with laziness, then people entirely unfamiliar with some language (or even people who had learned some variety of a language without having had a way to find out which social class spoke that variety) could listen to tapes of that language's standard and non-standard varieties and instantly, infallibly determine " which variety that nation calls 'standard' " simply by asking themselves " which variety sounds least lazy " or something similar. As I recall, repeated experiments have shown that, if you don't already know which variety of a language has gotten called " standard " or " non-standard, " you can't tell just by listening to it, Standard UK or USA English, for instance, sounds very lazy next to ish English: if you play tapes of London English, Omaha English, and Edinborough English, then ask the (non-English-speaking or otherwise inexperienced) listener " which of these is/are standard " — don't expect many correct answers, particularly if you have also already given the listener some common bit of mis-information like " the standard variety will always sound the least lazy. " To see how your own English stacks up in terms of standardness/non-standardness (with regard to pronunciation, vocabulary, and grammar of North American English), take the Harvard Dialect Survey, currently on-line at http://cfprod01.imt.uwm.edu/Dept/FLL/linguistics/dialect/ ,,, or just read the survey results so far, on-line at cfprod01.imt.uwm.edu/Dept/FLL/linguistics/dialect/maps.html Tom, you in particular ought to enjoy this! Kate Gladstone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 RE Internet sites, accessing of. Here in the USA I've seen quite a few public computers that are close to useless because of all the protective software loaded onto them when they were initially installed. Just to give an example, the adult-senior recreation center in Roswell (New Mexico, not Georgia) currently has some computers no one bothers using because they must have hired some student or other person who has never really worked with computers much to install them. I wasn't even able to access my email account for more than a few seconds before some protective software would crash the program for trying to put up some presumably innocuous advertising picture. Though new computers, they might as well have been used for door stops for all the use they were getting. I think what happens is people who are getting paid by the center to install the computers don't really know what they're doing and so err on what they consider they safe side and install all options for protective-software suggested by the manufacturer and so forth- Slowing down and bombing the computer a lot of the time. At the university here they have the computers disabled for Java and use other strategies so that basically most pictures don't show- but those methods don't crash the computers all the time the way most places like the Roswell adult-senior center computers do. There are less efficient and more efficient ways of going about controlling the content the users see. (When I want to look at autistic-savant Kim Peek youtube videos I go to the local public library for that.) The local drop-in center for mentally ill here in another part of New Mexico has several on-line computers but they also don't get much use because of the protective software- which I can see at least partial justification for since you don't want some people with mental illnessess becoming, umm, overtimulated? But still, people have pretty much stopped using those computers so they're almost useless too. Back when I was living in a stable place and had a on-line computer, I used to always err on the side of caution about where I visited on the net from my at-home computer, and then when going to places that crash computers a lot I would use the university library computers. Heph ravenmagic2003 <ravenmagic2003@...> wrote: wrote: "On one occsion a site that was posted on this forum would not allow me access as I was outside the USA and to my recollection the site was something to do with a comedian."I've had similar things happen as well with being disallowed to view a legitimate site (G rated) because it is in the US and I am not.RavenCo-Administrator Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out new cars at Autos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 CUYS!!!!!Look what I found.....Ok, in my anatomy book ( and ) it's written "The sibilants (S,Sh and Z) are produced by the passage of expired air through a narrow space between THE TIP OF THE TONGUE and the anterior part of THE HARD PALATE."So the answer for that question 2 will be A. I know it's crazy because now I've been trying to pronounce S for more than 5 minutes and my tip of the tongue is not touching anything but I am sure that the answer is right.And one more thing! In that classification there is nothing about AFFRICATIVES, so I attached the link to read about all the sounds.http://www.dur.ac.uk/daniel.newman/phon8.pdfLast September when I was doing my exam those guys were crazy, there was a question about sounds and I didn't know everything I do know now, so I was sitting in the exam and pronouncing sounds to myself with a very intelligent face ))) Very silly but I'm not ashamed of it. Don't underestimate the importance of every small detail!!!!!Good luck to everyone!Svetlana From: Kanika Kohli <kanika_sahil@...> " " < > Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 6:10 PM Subject: Re: answers anyone. hese phonetics are in relation to complete denture phonetics. .. i have pasted a material i came across... hope this helps....correct me if i am wrong...Mechanism of speech The voice is produced in the larynx: the muscles of the thorax and abdomen control the flow of the air with nasal cavity act as resonant chamber  The air from the larynx divided into 2 streams by the velum:a) Upper stream: the air expelled entirely through the nose to produce the nasal sounds: N-M-Ng. Lower stream: the air expelled through the oral cavity and altered by the palate, tongue and position of the teeth and lips to produce all other sounds. Types of sound:I. Vowels:  Produced by vibration of the vocal cords and not affected by oral structures. The tongue is positioned in the floor of the mouth and contact lingual surface of anterior teeth.  Types: Vowels are: a-e-i-o-u.II. Consonants:  Produced by constriction, obstruction and direction of the air stream when the air pass through the mouth  Types: a) According to the manner of production:1. Nasal sounds: N-M-Ng Produced through the nose. When the nasal cavity is blocked (adenoid hypertrophy- deviated nasal septum), hypernasality occurs.2. Plosives sounds: P-B-T-D-K Produced by complete stop of air stream, build up of pressure in the oral cavity then sudden release and explosion of air3. Sibilant (fricative) sounds: S-Ch-H-X-Z Produced by friction of the air stream when forced through narrow path wayb) According to the site of production:1. Bilabial sounds: B-P-M Formed by lip only. The air from the lung builds up pressure behind the closed lip, explosion produced when the lip suddenly opened2. Labiodentals sounds: F-V Formed by lips and teeth. Produced by the contact between the upper incisors and the lower lip3. Lingudental sounds: Th Formed when the tip of the tongue is positioned between upper and lower incisors4. Lingualveolar sounds: a. Tongue and the anterior portion of the hard palate: S, T-D S: the tongue form a slit like channel into which the air hisses and the air escape from the median grove of the tongue when it is positioned behind maxillary incisors. If this groove is flattened, lisping occurs (S is pronounced Ch), and if the groove is deepened whistling occurs  T-D: the sided of the tongue contact the teeth, the air stops and sudden release (explode) b. Tongue and the intermediate portion of the hard palate: Sh-Ch-J The tongue is pressed against large area of the hard palate and alveolar processc. Back of the tongue and soft palate: K,G5. Nasal sounds: N-M-Ng Effect of complete denture on speech (prosthetic factors affecting speech): A. Denture base:1- Denture base thickness:Thin well adapted denture base (1mm thickness) not greatly affect the speech  Increasing the thickness of the denture base leading to cramping of denture space, decrease air volume and obstruction air channels  Thickening the denture base in the anterior palatal → lisping (S pronounced Ch), and T pronounced D Thickening the denture base in posterior palatal border → defect in vowels (e,i) and consonants (k,g), so the border should be smooth tapered and merge with the soft palate (not form a square edge) Thickening the denture base at lower lingual flange → cramping of tongue space → lisping Decreasing the thickness of the denture base → whistling, D pronounced T2- Extension of the denture base Proper extension of the denture flanges aid retention and stability of denture which help in proper articulation of sounds as with poor retention, the tongue try to reseat the denture against the palate during the speech. Avoid overextension of the flanges to decrease interference with muscle movement during speech → indistinct speech especially if the lip affected3- Polished surface Reproduction of incisive papilla and rugea area (by wax carving –tin foil) on the polished surface of the anterior palate aid in correct production of anterior palatal sounds. B. Denture relations:1- Occlusal plane Too high occlusal plane: tongue spread on the lower teeth→ lisping (S pronounced Ch), and F pronounced V Too low occlusal plane: difficulty in correct positioning of the lower lip and tongue contact occlusal surface during the speech → V pronounced F2- Vertical dimension Increased vertical dimension: denture teeth make contact during speech→ clicking, defect in Ch-C-J sounds, whistling, Th pronounced T due to failure of the tongue to be placed between anterior teeth  Decreased vertical dimension: leading to lisping (S pronounced Ch) M sound: used as an aid to obtain correct vertical dimension. When the patient say M, if the lips are straightened and unable to make contact, the record blocks are occluded prematurely and the VD is high  S sound: also used as an aid to obtain correct vertical dimension. When the patient say S (sixty-six), the upper and lower teeth should be separated 2mm from each other (closest speaking space method)3- Teeth arrangements: 1- Width of the dental arch:  Too narrow dental arches→ the tongue cramped and the size of air channel decreased → faulty articulation of consonants (T-D-N-K-C), therefore, the teeth should be placed in the position previously occupied by natural teeth 2- Antro-posterior position of the anterior teeth Upper anterior teeth Too far palatally:- Upper incisors difficult to contact the upper lip → affect labiodentals sounds (F-V)- Tongue make contact with the teeth prematurely → affect lingupalatal sounds→ lisping (S pronounced Ch), T pronounced D Too far labially: whistling and D pronounced T Lower anterior teeth: Too far lingually: Th pronounced T and the tongue rested in the floor of the mouth behind lower anterior teeth in pronunciation of vowels Too far labially: affect pronunciation of vowels.3- The relationship of upper and lower anterior teeth Abnormal protrusive or retrusive Jaw relations (class II, class III angle classification) associated with increase or decrease the overjet leading to difficulty in pronunciation of S sound (increase overjet→ whistling) http://www.prosth.net/forum_thread_249_Complete-denture-phonetics.htmlhope this helps.. From: "dr_ashish_pandit@..." <dr_ashish_pandit@...> < > Sent: Thursday, 26 January 2012 11:15 AM Subject: Re: answers anyone. Regarding option a) for the s or sh sound, this is an obnoxious question,,the tongue becomes flat and there is no 'tip of tongue' as such,,so it is a bit diff. To assess what part actually touches. If still the tongue touches the anterior palate, the necessary sound will not at all be produced..Sent on my BlackBerry® from VodafoneFrom: Sajithakumari Sivaprem <ssajithakumari@...> Sender: Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 16:18:48 +0530 (IST) < >Reply Subject: Re: answers anyone. Hi Ashish, what abt option a for 2? sajitha From: "dr_ashish_pandit@..." <dr_ashish_pandit@...> < > Sent: Thursday, 26 January 2012 5:10 AM Subject: Re: answers anyone. A) hemophiliaB) during 's' or 'sh' sound, tip of tongue touches max canines,,that's the best poss answer,,,Ref-we can all see that in the mirror and say !!! ajithaC) to provide enough space.Sent on my BlackBerry® from VodafoneFrom: "monica.srivastava55" <monica.srivastava55@...> Sender: Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:05:22 -0000< >Reply Subject: answers anyone. 1.which of following conditions would warrant hospital admission for dental surgery? a.haemophillia b.h/o pertussis in childhood c.Hb-12gms d.urine analysis showing acidic ph e.all of above 2.when a CD wearer says s n sh tip of tongue touches a.hard palate b.soft palate c.max.canines d.max.premolars e.max.molars. 3.why should the lingual embrassure b/w upper3 n upper 4 be enlarged during mouth preparation for maxillary partial denture?? a.to prevent denture slip mesially b.to prevent denture slip distally c.to provide adequate retention d.to provide adequate space for reciprocating arm e.none can anybody pls give answer and explain the question as well coz i have not come across this embrasure preparation stuff nywhr...thnx. thanx to all in advance.. 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Guest guest Posted January 27, 2012 Report Share Posted January 27, 2012 Guys,I have to apologise, I was wrong in my previous message. I read it wrong, and now I have to correct myself.Because the air is coming through the tongue and the hard palate, it doesn't mean that tongue touches the palate. And now I'd go for the answer C with canines. Also found this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibilant_consonantThe most important there is the following: Sibilants can be made at any coronal articulation, i.e. the tongue can contact the upper side of the mouth anywhere from the upper teeth (dental) to the hard palate (palatal), with the in-between articulations being denti-alveolar, alveolar and postalveolar.Regards,Svetlana From: Svetlana Lemtyugina <svetlanalemtyugina@...> " " < > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:03 PM Subject: Sounds GUYS!!!!!Look what I found.....Ok, in my anatomy book ( and ) it's written "The sibilants (S,Sh and Z) are produced by the passage of expired air through a narrow space between THE TIP OF THE TONGUE and the anterior part of THE HARD PALATE."So the answer for that question 2 will be A. I know it's crazy because now I've been trying to pronounce S for more than 5 minutes and my tip of the tongue is not touching anything but I am sure that the answer is right.And one more thing! In that classification there is nothing about AFFRICATIVES, so I attached the link to read about all the sounds.http://www.dur.ac.uk/daniel.newman/phon8.pdfLast September when I was doing my exam those guys were crazy, there was a question about sounds and I didn't know everything I do know now, so I was sitting in the exam and pronouncing sounds to myself with a very intelligent face ))) Very silly but I'm not ashamed of it. Don't underestimate the importance of every small detail!!!!!Good luck to everyone!Svetlana From: Kanika Kohli <kanika_sahil@...> " " < > Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 6:10 PM Subject: Re: answers anyone. hese phonetics are in relation to complete denture phonetics. .. i have pasted a material i came across... hope this helps....correct me if i am wrong...Mechanism of speech The voice is produced in the larynx: the muscles of the thorax and abdomen control the flow of the air with nasal cavity act as resonant chamber  The air from the larynx divided into 2 streams by the velum:a) Upper stream: the air expelled entirely through the nose to produce the nasal sounds: N-M-Ng. Lower stream: the air expelled through the oral cavity and altered by the palate, tongue and position of the teeth and lips to produce all other sounds. Types of sound:I. Vowels:  Produced by vibration of the vocal cords and not affected by oral structures. The tongue is positioned in the floor of the mouth and contact lingual surface of anterior teeth.  Types: Vowels are: a-e-i-o-u.II. Consonants:  Produced by constriction, obstruction and direction of the air stream when the air pass through the mouth  Types: a) According to the manner of production:1. Nasal sounds: N-M-Ng Produced through the nose. When the nasal cavity is blocked (adenoid hypertrophy- deviated nasal septum), hypernasality occurs.2. Plosives sounds: P-B-T-D-K Produced by complete stop of air stream, build up of pressure in the oral cavity then sudden release and explosion of air3. Sibilant (fricative) sounds: S-Ch-H-X-Z Produced by friction of the air stream when forced through narrow path wayb) According to the site of production:1. Bilabial sounds: B-P-M Formed by lip only. The air from the lung builds up pressure behind the closed lip, explosion produced when the lip suddenly opened2. Labiodentals sounds: F-V Formed by lips and teeth. Produced by the contact between the upper incisors and the lower lip3. Lingudental sounds: Th Formed when the tip of the tongue is positioned between upper and lower incisors4. Lingualveolar sounds: a. Tongue and the anterior portion of the hard palate: S, T-D S: the tongue form a slit like channel into which the air hisses and the air escape from the median grove of the tongue when it is positioned behind maxillary incisors. If this groove is flattened, lisping occurs (S is pronounced Ch), and if the groove is deepened whistling occurs  T-D: the sided of the tongue contact the teeth, the air stops and sudden release (explode) b. Tongue and the intermediate portion of the hard palate: Sh-Ch-J The tongue is pressed against large area of the hard palate and alveolar processc. Back of the tongue and soft palate: K,G5. Nasal sounds: N-M-Ng Effect of complete denture on speech (prosthetic factors affecting speech): A. Denture base:1- Denture base thickness:Thin well adapted denture base (1mm thickness) not greatly affect the speech  Increasing the thickness of the denture base leading to cramping of denture space, decrease air volume and obstruction air channels  Thickening the denture base in the anterior palatal → lisping (S pronounced Ch), and T pronounced D Thickening the denture base in posterior palatal border → defect in vowels (e,i) and consonants (k,g), so the border should be smooth tapered and merge with the soft palate (not form a square edge) Thickening the denture base at lower lingual flange → cramping of tongue space → lisping Decreasing the thickness of the denture base → whistling, D pronounced T2- Extension of the denture base Proper extension of the denture flanges aid retention and stability of denture which help in proper articulation of sounds as with poor retention, the tongue try to reseat the denture against the palate during the speech. Avoid overextension of the flanges to decrease interference with muscle movement during speech → indistinct speech especially if the lip affected3- Polished surface Reproduction of incisive papilla and rugea area (by wax carving –tin foil) on the polished surface of the anterior palate aid in correct production of anterior palatal sounds. B. Denture relations:1- Occlusal plane Too high occlusal plane: tongue spread on the lower teeth→ lisping (S pronounced Ch), and F pronounced V Too low occlusal plane: difficulty in correct positioning of the lower lip and tongue contact occlusal surface during the speech → V pronounced F2- Vertical dimension Increased vertical dimension: denture teeth make contact during speech→ clicking, defect in Ch-C-J sounds, whistling, Th pronounced T due to failure of the tongue to be placed between anterior teeth  Decreased vertical dimension: leading to lisping (S pronounced Ch) M sound: used as an aid to obtain correct vertical dimension. When the patient say M, if the lips are straightened and unable to make contact, the record blocks are occluded prematurely and the VD is high  S sound: also used as an aid to obtain correct vertical dimension. When the patient say S (sixty-six), the upper and lower teeth should be separated 2mm from each other (closest speaking space method)3- Teeth arrangements: 1- Width of the dental arch:  Too narrow dental arches→ the tongue cramped and the size of air channel decreased → faulty articulation of consonants (T-D-N-K-C), therefore, the teeth should be placed in the position previously occupied by natural teeth 2- Antro-posterior position of the anterior teeth Upper anterior teeth Too far palatally:- Upper incisors difficult to contact the upper lip → affect labiodentals sounds (F-V)- Tongue make contact with the teeth prematurely → affect lingupalatal sounds→ lisping (S pronounced Ch), T pronounced D Too far labially: whistling and D pronounced T Lower anterior teeth: Too far lingually: Th pronounced T and the tongue rested in the floor of the mouth behind lower anterior teeth in pronunciation of vowels Too far labially: affect pronunciation of vowels.3- The relationship of upper and lower anterior teeth Abnormal protrusive or retrusive Jaw relations (class II, class III angle classification) associated with increase or decrease the overjet leading to difficulty in pronunciation of S sound (increase overjet→ whistling) http://www.prosth.net/forum_thread_249_Complete-denture-phonetics.htmlhope this helps.. From: "dr_ashish_pandit@..." <dr_ashish_pandit@...> < > Sent: Thursday, 26 January 2012 11:15 AM Subject: Re: answers anyone. Regarding option a) for the s or sh sound, this is an obnoxious question,,the tongue becomes flat and there is no 'tip of tongue' as such,,so it is a bit diff. To assess what part actually touches. If still the tongue touches the anterior palate, the necessary sound will not at all be produced..Sent on my BlackBerry® from VodafoneFrom: Sajithakumari Sivaprem <ssajithakumari@...> Sender: Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 16:18:48 +0530 (IST) < >Reply Subject: Re: answers anyone. Hi Ashish, what abt option a for 2? sajitha From: "dr_ashish_pandit@..." <dr_ashish_pandit@...> < > Sent: Thursday, 26 January 2012 5:10 AM Subject: Re: answers anyone. A) hemophiliaB) during 's' or 'sh' sound, tip of tongue touches max canines,,that's the best poss answer,,,Ref-we can all see that in the mirror and say !!! ajithaC) to provide enough space.Sent on my BlackBerry® from VodafoneFrom: "monica.srivastava55" <monica.srivastava55@...> Sender: Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:05:22 -0000< >Reply Subject: answers anyone. 1.which of following conditions would warrant hospital admission for dental surgery? a.haemophillia b.h/o pertussis in childhood c.Hb-12gms d.urine analysis showing acidic ph e.all of above 2.when a CD wearer says s n sh tip of tongue touches a.hard palate b.soft palate c.max.canines d.max.premolars e.max.molars. 3.why should the lingual embrassure b/w upper3 n upper 4 be enlarged during mouth preparation for maxillary partial denture?? a.to prevent denture slip mesially b.to prevent denture slip distally c.to provide adequate retention d.to provide adequate space for reciprocating arm e.none can anybody pls give answer and explain the question as well coz i have not come across this embrasure preparation stuff nywhr...thnx. thanx to all in advance.. 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